Heresy 220 and the nature of magic

[Black Crow]

3 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Maybe you should look into this, because this statement looks very wrong to me. I guess you talk about Spain, I'm not an expert on roman/carthagian spanish architecture. But round towers as indication for roman buildings ? That sounds very wrong. Everything we know from foundations, pictures and standing buildings indicates square towers. 

 

edit: I guess you mean romanesque and the translation is wrong ? 

Indeed, my own observations were based on Celtic Europe, north of the Mediterranean.

That being said, its probably a bit of a diversion. If GRRM declares square towers to be older - in his world at least - then there may or may not be some significance to that, although I rather suspect it doesn't actually matter

[JNR]

14 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

My script for season 8 would certainly have had dialogue from the Night(s) King whether it was strategy on the siege at Winterfell or simply asking for a Dr. Pepper and a hot dog.  Something....not even a grunt was uttered from this guy.

OK, but that's really a different thing -- that job is comfortable with all the differences between the books and the show we know exist.

For instance, we know there is no Night King in the books.  The Popsicles have no leader in the books at all, that has ever turned up.

So if you were to write a one-page summary of the last half of ADOS, which corresponds to the timeframe of season eight... it would probably not have a Night King at all.  Never mind one who says things.

And if you were to decide that the Popsicles did have a leader, and that leader dies in the second half of ADOS... I doubt you would write that killing him would instantly end the Second Long Night.  That is way, way too tidy and convenient and simple for GRRM, and is more along the lines of what Black Crow mocks as "with one bound, Jack was free."

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

in very simple terms the lack of even a grunt underlines the fact that the Mummers' version is not only different from GRRM's but a complete fantasy 

And that's just one major change.  There are so many huge changes/assumptions at this point that practically all of us, steeped in canon as we are, would do a better job predicting the second half of ADOS than the show has done.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, JNR said:

And that's just one major change.  There are so many huge changes/assumptions at this point that practically all of us, steeped in canon as we are, would do a better job predicting the second half of ADOS than the show has done.

They have yet to explain how killing the Night King ended the long night and restored the normal balance between seasons.

[JNR]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

They have yet to explain how killing the Night King ended the long night and restored the normal balance between seasons.

Yes, that's true, if you define Long Night to mean the weather -- the superwinter.

I'm mainly thinking of it, above, as the invasion of wights and Popsicles, just as apparently happened in the original Long Night.

There is just no way, IMO at least, that GRRM is going to conclude the invasion of wights and Popsicles by... giving the Popsicles a leader whose death will result in all Popsicles and wights instantly dropping dead.  

For me, that is obviously a very pure form of Hollywood bullshit.

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

They have yet to explain how killing the Night King ended the long night and restored the normal balance between seasons.

I didn't see anything on the show to indicate killing the Night King fixed the seasons.   If it did, that is even more anticlimactic. 

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I didn't see anything on the show to indicate killing the Night King fixed the seasons.   If it did, that is even more anticlimactic. 

They will neither fix nor explain the seasons on the show. They will simply forget about or ignore it.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Yes, that's true, if you define Long Night to mean the weather -- the superwinter.

I'm mainly thinking of it, above, as the invasion of wights and Popsicles, just as apparently happened in the original Long Night.

There is just no way, IMO at least, that GRRM is going to conclude the invasion of wights and Popsicles by... giving the Popsicles a leader whose death will result in all Popsicles and wights instantly dropping dead.  

For me, that is obviously a very pure form of Hollywood bullshit.

Yes, it's cheese to quote Matthew.  They are using the Thrall Demon Trope.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I didn't see anything on the show to indicate killing the Night King fixed the seasons.   If it did, that is even more anticlimactic. 

No they are not even considering that aspect of Martin's book.

[Brad Stark]

GRRM said he knew how the series would end when he started, and he told D&D.  That doesn't mean they didn't dumb it down, but I still think we will see more about ice and fire in the final 3 episodes - including the seasons being restored, and likely the end of the dragons and Jon.

[Matthew.]

52 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM said he knew how the series would end when he started, and he told D&D.  That doesn't mean they didn't dumb it down, but I still think we will see more about ice and fire in the final 3 episodes - including the seasons being restored, and likely the end of the dragons and Jon.

If this is happening, they've left themselves only the thinnest of avenues by which they might emphasize the magic, rather than the politics. Namely:

- Through Bran, either because the 3EC being the white walker's foe does not necessarily imply that the 3EC is humanity's ally, or because the "NK's mark" thing is going to come into play
- Alternately, through Dany more explicitly becoming a fire parallel to the white walkers, a figure whose very existence is magically imbalancing

Either way, I think Dany is being set up to be at odds with several other characters, and that KL is going to be wrecked - either by Drogon, Aerys' wildfire, or both - but my gut feeling is that the emphasis is going to be more on political factors than magical factors, and that fire and ice really has fallen to the wayside.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

If this is happening, they've left themselves only the thinnest of avenues by which they might emphasize the magic, rather than the politics. Namely:

- Through Bran, either because the 3EC being the white walker's foe does not necessarily imply that the 3EC is humanity's ally, or because the "NK's mark" thing is going to come into play
- Alternately, through Dany more explicitly becoming a fire parallel to the white walkers, a figure whose very existence is magically imbalancing

Either way, I think Dany is being set up to be at odds with several other characters, and that KL is going to be wrecked - either by Drogon, Aerys' wildfire, or both - but my gut feeling is that the emphasis is going to be more on political factors than magical factors, and that fire and ice really has fallen to the wayside.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree and that if the Long Night ended with the killing of a single character who doesn't exist in the books, then all that remains for the final episodes of the mummers version is a dream of spring

[MaesterSam]

On 5/2/2019 at 12:32 PM, Feather Crystal said:

While there are dualities I suspect there isn’t a simply good vs bad coin. The House of the Undying came off as being all ‘bad’, but is that true? Same goes for the Cave of Skulls. On the surface it appears their ‘mission’ is for ‘good’, but is that true?

I'm not even sure that it appears as a mission for good; I think we may be telling ourselves that that's how it appears because Bran doesn't seem concerned. In any other story, however, a 7 year old being lured underground into a cave full of skulls and a corpse lord in a tree would set off ALL the alarm bells! 

On 5/2/2019 at 1:34 PM, Black Crow said:

GRRM treats us to a lot of parallels with his childhood Catholicism and an obvious one might be the burning of penitent heretics to save their immortal souls, but I don't recall Mel justifying her auto da fe on those grounds. Her "sacrifices" are offerings to her God, not intended to save those involved

I was thinking specifically of this passage in ADWD:

Quote

Ser Corliss Penny stepped forward, clutching the torch with both hands. He swung it about his head in a circle, fanning the flames. One of the captives began to whimper.
“R’hllor,” Ser Godry sang, “we give you now four evil men. With glad hearts and true, we give them to your cleansing fires, that the darkness in their souls might be burned away. Let their vile flesh be seared and blackened, that their spirits might rise free and pure to ascend into the light. Accept their blood, Oh lord, and melt the icy chains that bind your servants. Hear their pain, and grant strength to our swords that we might shed the blood of your enemies. Accept this sacrifice, and show us the way to Winterfell, that we might vanquish the
unbelievers.”

I completely agree that the primary motivation for burning people is to gain R'hllor's favor and help, but there does seem to be a belief that burning nonbelievers frees their souls. 

On 5/2/2019 at 5:12 PM, JNR said:

Not sure what BC will say, but he's right that round towers in our world seem to be older (Sardinian nuraghes for instance go back several thousand years).

I find the World book routinely inaccurate on both ancient and modern subjects, so I don't find that surprising.  I think the maesters are just wrong.

What an interesting discrepancy. Do you think GRRM means for the maesters to be wrong, or that he is wrong himself? It's not just in the World Book that we hear about square towers being older, it also comes up in a Jaime chapter in ADWD:

Quote

Raventree Hall was old. Moss grew thick between its ancient stones, spiderwebbing up its walls like the veins in a crone’s legs. Two huge towers flanked the castle’s main gate, and smaller ones defended every angle of its walls. All were square. Drum towers and half-moons held up better against catapults, since thrown stones were more apt to deflect off a curved wall, but Raventree predated that particular bit of builder’s wisdom.

 

[JNR]

16 hours ago, Matthew. said:

f this is happening, they've left themselves only the thinnest of avenues by which they might emphasize the magic, rather than the politics. Namely:

- Through Bran

That would be a good idea indeed, because it would give Bran some sort of function or purpose.

As things stand now, he's a kid who's been dragged around Westeros and taught to skinchange trees so that... drumbeat... he can sit in a chair and say philosophical things in a monotone. 

Is that GRRM's big plan for Bran, really?

18 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

Do you think GRRM means for the maesters to be wrong, or that he is wrong himself? It's not just in the World Book that we hear about square towers being older, it also comes up in a Jaime chapter in ADWD

Well, I think Jaime is cough a little forgetful, as are the maesters.  Because although to describe modern castles, he says

22 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

Drum towers and half-moons held up better against catapults

He seems to forget the very oldest famous castle in Westeros is of this sort:

Quote

Storm's End endured, through centuries and tens of centuries, a castle like no other. Its great curtain wall was a hundred feet high, unbroken by arrow slit or postern, everywhere rounded, curving, smooth, its stones fit so cunningly together that nowhere was crevice nor angle nor gap by which the wind might enter. That wall was said to be forty feet thick at its narrowest, and near eighty on the seaward face, a double course of stones with an inner core of sand and rubble. Within that mighty bulwark, the kitchens and stables and yards sheltered safe from wind and wave. Of towers, there was but one, a colossal drum tower, windowless where it faced the sea

Beyond the boldfaced, I also note the whole point of Storm's End curtain wall is that it is "rounded, curving" so as to defeat the elements. 

If you accept that Storm's End is an incredibly old castle, which I do, it follows that the ancients knew all about rounded architecture.

[JNR]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

if the Long Night ended with the killing of a single character who doesn't exist in the books, then all that remains for the final episodes of the mummers version is a dream of spring

Well, he certainly hasn't turned up in the books so far, though I guess GRRM might whip him out at the last minute.

I think what remains for the final episodes is the end of Cersei and Jaime and Zombie Mountain... the end of Drogon and Dany... and the political outcome for the North (to remain independent under King Jon) and the South (King Gendry, First of His Name, Closest Known Living Relation of a Former King, and a skilled metalworker who can presumably round off the sharp pointy bits of the Iron Throne).

[Black Crow]

48 minutes ago, JNR said:

...and the political outcome for the North (to remain independent under King Jon) 

Don't you mean Aegon Targaryen, lawful son of Rhaegar Targaryen and rightful heir to the Iron Throne 

[Brad Stark]

18 hours ago, Matthew. said:

If this is happening, they've left themselves only the thinnest of avenues by which they might emphasize the magic, rather than the politics. Namely:

- Through Bran, either because the 3EC being the white walker's foe does not necessarily imply that the 3EC is humanity's ally, or because the "NK's mark" thing is going to come into play
- Alternately, through Dany more explicitly becoming a fire parallel to the white walkers, a figure whose very existence is magically imbalancing

Either way, I think Dany is being set up to be at odds with several other characters, and that KL is going to be wrecked - either by Drogon, Aerys' wildfire, or both - but my gut feeling is that the emphasis is going to be more on political factors than magical factors, and that fire and ice really has fallen to the wayside.

Don't forget we have 2 dragons and an undead Gregor to deal with.   Ice might be done, but magic is not. 

[Black Crow]

19 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Don't forget we have 2 dragons and an undead Gregor to deal with.   Ice might be done, but magic is not. 

True, but given that with one bound Jack Arya was free and the Ice and Fire business sorted, that seems like mopping up.

Something is seriously wrong with the Mummers' ending and we can be very confident that GRRM has something very different in store for us

[JNR]

21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Don't you mean Aegon Targaryen, lawful son of Rhaegar Targaryen and rightful heir to the Iron Throne 

Why yes, I stand corrected. 

It's just so hard to believe the show did anything as insane as Jon secretly being named the same thing as his brother, I constantly forget it.

6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Something is seriously wrong with the Mummers' ending and we can be very confident that GRRM has something very different in store for us

And hence my serious suggestion that any Heretic who wants to know what it is could get a fair approximation just by sketching it out.

All one has to do is put the show completely out of one's mind... focus exclusively on the canon and the SSMs -- which is to say, the products of GRRM's thinking... and see what logically emerges.

One thing that definitely emerges is that the Long Night is going to be a long and difficult matter.  Otherwise, it would be called the Short Night.  So the Wall will not easily fall, and when it does, a single battle is not going to settle everything.

Or if we like, we can zero in on the Wall and how it falls.  For instance, we know that canonical wights are freeze-dried and super-flammable as a result.  This means if a Popsicle could kill and then wight a dragon... and that dragon attempted to generate fire... it would instantly catch fire in a vast airborne conflagration, like the Hindenburg.  It would pose no threat to anyone except those riding it.   Those riding it, if wights, would similarly catch fire instantly, and if Popsicles, would do no better because as Sam explicitly told us, "fire dismays them." 

So there is simply no way a wighted dragon is going to bring down the Wall in two minutes flat.  That's the sort of hilariously insane concept only a Hollywood production could roll out to the world... certainly not GRRM.

[Melifeather]

See, now I thought the ice dragon was breathing a super cold blue ‘flame’.

Just saw a post claiming Jon’s screaming at the dragon was actually a distraction so that Arya could get past, because the ice dragon was blocking the entrance to the godswood.

i think we might be able to discern some of the ‘high notes’ that translate to the book, such as, the Others are defeated at Winterfell, the crypts open and the Kings of Winter rise, and one of the dragons are killed.

The show has reduced A Dream of Spring to a couple episodes.

[JNR]

Now that I think about it...

I think it would be a wonderful moment in ASOIAF if in the next book, a dragon does die.  And it is wighted. 

And something does try to leverage it to attack the Wall.

And it does explode in a fireball instantly, killing whatever is riding it.

And after a moment of shocked silence, the Watch bursts into laughter and relief.