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Heresy 222 vindication

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8 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

It certainly could be Illyrio, there would be nothing to suggest that they aren't working together. But to what aim?

I'm really not sure about Illyrio. While he's certainly up to his fat neck in whatever's going on and has a suitably mysterious past, he doesn't strike me as being the one running the show.

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1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

It certainly could be Illyrio, there would be nothing to suggest that they aren't working together. But to what aim?

Illyrio's goal ? Make money. Who knows in what he really trades and if dragonbone is just the cover story. In an amazing twist, the dragonbone dealer could trade in assassinations, while the bad catspawn assassin was hired with a dragonbone dagger. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Okay, I get what you are saying.  What if something then happened during the disappearance that caused the issue then? Not just the general ranging.  My thoughts were if he has been with the Children, at least some form of magic has been building.

I like your thoughts on repeated histories.  Based on GRRM's interviews and writings regarding his feelings of war, I get the sense that he sees a pointlessness to it, yet notices its cyclical nature.  For instance, WWI was the war to end all wars, which obviously didn't come to pass.   I am curious, though, as to what you mean by "the events weren't as close together as they were during the Harrenhal Tourney"  What events, specifically, are you referring to and how do you connect them?    Are you referring to the False Spring as one event and the hatching of the dragons eggs as the second event, acting like bookends, and they are relatively close together (~15 years)?  Or are you referring to the False Spring as the start of one cycle and the Hatching of the dragons as the start of another cycle and the two cycles are, relatively, close together?   Does that make sense?

My only issue with this is that I believe he was with Quellon, Balon and Victarion during the plundering of the Reach at the end of Robert's Rebellion, which leads me to think that he is older than 13.

First the easier question to answer: Euron's age with regard to Robert's Rebellion. The Greyjoys didn't join right away. Their raid of the Reach occurred later in the Rebellion. He could have been 14 going on 15 by then. Any older and he would have been considered a man grown and would have had his own ship.

Here are some examples of historical events with their parallels and inversions, and how they are spaced out:

Lord Whent's daughter started out the tourney at Harrenhal as the queen of love and beauty. Her title was defended by her four brothers.

Howland Reed is insulted by three squires, saved by Lyanna, and prays for a way to become a knight.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree defeats the knights of the squires - the 3 knights parallel the 3 squires.

Aerys demands the KotLT be found. Rhaegar's search for the knight is a parallel for Howland's prayer to become a knight.

Lyanna is crowned queen of love and beauty. She has 3 brothers (Brandon, Ned, and Benjen) and 1 sort of brother (Howland). The numbers parallel Lord When't daughter and her brothers.

Jaime Lannister becomes a Kingsguard. His appointment is a parallel to when he was knighted just two months prior to the tourney.

Lyanna's abduction is a parallel to the attack on Elia earlier in 281.

The presumed (false in my opinion) marriage of Lyanna and Rhaegar is the parallel to Rhaegar and Elia's marriage in 280.

Jon Arryn's refusal to give up Robert and Ned is a parallel to the Defiance of Duskendale (277 AC)

Robert's Rebellion is a parallel to the War of the Ninepenny Kings (260 AC)

The tower of joy is a parallel to the Tragedy at Summerhal (259 AC)

Greyjoy's Rebellion is a parallel of the Peake Uprising (233 AC).

Mance Raydar's successful uniting of the wildlings and subsequent passage through the Wall is an inversion to Raymun Redbeard and the defeat of the last wildling attempt to get through. (226 AC).

The return of dragons is an inversion to the death of the last dragon (153 AC)

The War of the Five Kings (only counting Stannis, Renly, and Robb) was an inversion parallel anomaly to the first three Blackfyre Rebellions (219-196 AC). 

The rise of Young Griff and Daenerys will be an inversion to the Dance of the Dragons (129-131).

Cersei's revival of the Faith Militant is an inversion to the Faith Militant Uprising (41-48 AC)

Victarion's attack on the Shield Islands is a parallel to Aegon's Conquest in 2 BC - 1 AC.

Stannis's plan to take the Iron Throne by coming down from the north is a parallel to King Sherrit when he called down his curse upon the Andals.

The mutiny against LC Jon Snow is a parallel to the mutiny of the 13th LC aka The Night's King

Arianne of Dorne is sent by her father to make an alliance or marriage proposal to Young Griff, who came to Westeros by way of the Rhoyne, thereby an inversion of Nymeria's 10,000 ships intermarrying with the Prince of Dorne and his people.

Sansa's rise in the Riverlands will be an inversion to when King Torrhen knelt.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

First the easier question to answer: Euron's age with regard to Robert's Rebellion. The Greyjoys didn't join right away. Their raid of the Reach occurred later in the Rebellion. He could have been 14 going on 15 by then. Any older and he would have been considered a man grown and would have had his own ship.

Here are some examples of historical events with their parallels and inversions, and how they are spaced out:

Lord Whent's daughter started out the tourney at Harrenhal as the queen of love and beauty. Her title was defended by her four brothers.

Howland Reed is insulted by three squires, saved by Lyanna, and prays for a way to become a knight.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree defeats the knights of the squires - the 3 knights parallel the 3 squires.

Aerys demands the KotLT be found. Rhaegar's search for the knight is a parallel for Howland's prayer to become a knight.

Lyanna is crowned queen of love and beauty. She has 3 brothers (Brandon, Ned, and Benjen) and 1 sort of brother (Howland). The numbers parallel Lord When't daughter and her brothers.

Jaime Lannister becomes a Kingsguard. His appointment is a parallel to when he was knighted just two months prior to the tourney.

Lyanna's abduction is a parallel to the attack on Elia earlier in 281.

The presumed (false in my opinion) marriage of Lyanna and Rhaegar is the parallel to Rhaegar and Elia's marriage in 280.

Jon Arryn's refusal to give up Robert and Ned is a parallel to the Defiance of Duskendale (277 AC)

Robert's Rebellion is a parallel to the War of the Ninepenny Kings (260 AC)

The tower of joy is a parallel to the Tragedy at Summerhal (259 AC)

Greyjoy's Rebellion is a parallel of the Peake Uprising (233 AC).

Mance Raydar's successful uniting of the wildlings and subsequent passage through the Wall is an inversion to Raymun Redbeard and the defeat of the last wildling attempt to get through. (226 AC).

The return of dragons is an inversion to the death of the last dragon (153 AC)

The War of the Five Kings (only counting Stannis, Renly, and Robb) was an inversion to the first three Blackfyre Rebellions (219-196 AC).

The rise of Young Griff and Daenerys will be an inversion to the Dance of the Dragons (129-131).

Cersei's revival of the Faith Militant is an inversion to the Faith Militant Uprising (41-48 AC)

Victarion's attack on the Shield Islands is a parallel to Aegon's Conquest in 2 BC - 1 AC.

Stannis's plan to take the Iron Throne by coming down from the north is a parallel to King Sherrit when he called down his curse upon the Andals.

The mutiny against LC Jon Snow is a parallel to the mutiny of the 13th LC aka The Night's King

Arianne of Dorne is sent by her father to make an alliance or marriage proposal to Young Griff, who came to Westeros by way of the Rhoyne, thereby an inversion of Nymeria's 10,000 ships intermarrying with the Prince of Dorne and his people.

Sansa's rise in the Riverlands will be an inversion to when King Torrhen knelt.

Ok I think I understand you now. This is one whole cycle that is restarting and it started with the False Spring.

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32 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Ok I think I understand you now. This is one whole cycle that is restarting and it started with the False Spring.

Did you notice that the outcomes began inverting around the time that dragons were born? I've got Mance Raydar listed before Dany's dragons, but he should be after her. He was successful, while Raymun failed. The only reason why Lyanna died while Elia survived her attack, was because the return to winter caused her destiny to get mixed up with Ashara's. The tourney at Harrenhal was ground zero for the lightning strike. She and Ashara were "Freaky Friday-ed" and they swapped places. Not literally or spiritually. Just their places on the wheel of time. Ashara's destiny was to die. The jumping off the tower is symbolic of death. Towers are inversions to wells and wells are entrances to Hades and the underworld. When Arianne brought Myrcella to a well, it was symbolic of death, but she was attacked by Darkstar. His given name is a parallel to both Gerold Hightower, who was with Elia when she was attacked, and Arthur Dayne, who led the detachment to bring the Kingswood Brotherhood to justice. Lyanna suffered Ashara's death, while Ashara is just pretending to be dead in the crypts like the mother of Bael's child.

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As I hinted above it may be helpful in looking at this question to reverse viewpoints and look at Rugen rather than Varys as the principal.

There's nothing exceptional about his voice. Its not high pitched or girlish and although we didn't see much of him in the flesh I don't recall a titter. He smells of jails and cheap wine, and he close up he has stubble.

Varys on the other hand drenches himself in perfumes and powders and affects an effeminate high-pitched voice - only to cast it aside when alone with the dying Ser Kevan - and as I said earlier, notwithstanding an apocryphal scene in the Mummers' version there is no direct evidence that he is a eunuch. Who troubles to doubt it, given his public persona.

And that I think is the key point. Varys does not disguise himself as Rugen. Why does he need to anyway? Rather Rugen is disguising himself as Varys in order to infiltrate and manipulate the Small Council. 

Rugen is a professional.

I don't see why Varys would lie about being a Eunuch.  His story about what happened to as a boy seems to define his character - I think the story is weaker if we learn he just made it up.

We don't know if either name is really his, so I don't know if saying Rugen is really Varys instead of vice versa means anything, unless you are suggesting they both existed as different people at one point and Rugen killed Varys to take his place.

Rugen has a fake beard and Varys claims to have been an actor, so it makes more sense to think of Varys pretending to be Rugen. 

We may have hit on something with the timing.  Varys has pretended to be Rugen for many years.  Why?  Is this a multi year plot?  Or has the role of Rugen been just something useful for a variety of purposes?  Is his plot connected to the Faceless man in the black cells?

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Apparently castration has an effect on a male's voice if done before puberty. The lower register of the voice is considered a "super- high" tenor. If castration is done after puberty, it shouldn't an effect on the voice.

Castration prior to puberty also causes unusually long limbs, because the lack of testosterone prevents the normal hardening of bone joints. A castrated male would have longer rib bones as well, allowing for greater lung capacity. 

More on Castratos...

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50 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

like the mother of Bael's child.

btw., since I have been thinking about Bael half the day, what is the inversion of the tale in your opinion ?

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

btw., since I have been thinking about Bael half the day, what is the inversion of the tale in your opinion ?

Well, it seems to be a bit more jumbled than a straight inversion.

Ashara is the daughter hiding in the crypts. The daughter of Winterfell went missing, but I don't think her father ever thought she was dead - just stolen (like Lyanna). She was found sleeping in her own bed, whereupon we learn that she had been hiding down in the crypts all along. Does this mean she literally was living in the crypts or was she pretending to be dead, like Ashara?

Bael's son grew up and killed his father unawares, and his mother killed herself by jumping from a tower, because she loved Bael and perhaps now felt her son was cursed as a kinslayer. The son is later killed by a Bolton.

Ashara is already credited with jumping from a tower, and if Jon is her son, his father Ned is already dead. Jon is safe from becoming a kinslayer, but we have yet to learn if his mutiny should be blamed on Ramsay's letter or if he will survive to war against the Boltons.

Will Ashara remain hidden in the crypts, or will her identity be revealed like the daughter? We don't know for sure how her father died or whether or not he was an ailing lord when she got pregnant, but somebody was tossed off that tower and my money is on it being his corpse.

There are two other current characters who are living out the same Bael tale: Sansa and Gilly. 

Gilly is raising Aemon Steelsong as Sam's son at Horn Hill, while her real son Monster is being raised by the Nights Watch at the Wall. Monster's father (Craster) and Aemon's mother (Dalla) are already "in the crypts". Aemon is a bit young before he'd ever get a chance at killing his Bael-like father Mance, unawares. Bael's son became the Lord of Winterfell, so Aemon might have a lordship in his future, and just like Bael's son wasn't really the Lord's son, Aemon isn't Sam's either. Lastly, Aemon's bael-ish father is being held in a cage by the Boltons. The only thing missing from this story is a jump from a tower. Falling down a well would work too. I've got a bad feeling about Gilly! :bawl:

Sansa is hiding her true identity by pretending to be Petyr Baelish's daughter (Alayne) and she has become foster mother to her blood nephew and Petyr's ward (Robert aka "Robin"). Littlefinger might actually be Robin's father. That would be something Lysa could work out. She was able to arrange for Petyr to get some good assignments once she was married to Jon Arryn. I guess Robin could kill his father unawares if he's the one that ends up killing Littlefinger. Robin's mother Lysa was pushed out the Moon Door, which was an inversion to jumping from a tower. Sansa as the "daughter of Winterfell" might qualify as "hiding in the crypts" and may end up killing the Bael-ish "father". Lastly, her sister, fake Arya, is married to Ramsay Bolton. All the elements are in this grouping, so it's hard to predict what may or may not happen to Sansa.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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On 5/27/2019 at 2:42 PM, St Daga said:

I love this idea of "half a Stranger" for Euron. The idea of the dead fit's Euron well. Why half a greenseer for Tyrion? I can never tell if his "dreams" of having his own dragon are actual dreams or just wishes. The green eye must come from the Lannister blood, but I guess Jaime and Cersei have the same eyes and have some interesting dreams.

This is only slightly related but I suppose this is as good a time as any to mention that Tywin's mother was a Marbrand from Ashemark. So Cersei could have gotten her love for fire from her grandmother. More intriguingly, the sigil of House Marbrand is a burning tree - orange on a smokey (grey) field/ background. Funny that this doesn't come up more often...

 

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

This is only slightly related but I suppose this is as good a time as any to mention that Tywin's mother was a Marbrand from Ashemark. So Cersei could have gotten her love for fire from her grandmother. More intriguingly, the sigil of House Marbrand is a burning tree - orange on a smokey (grey) field/ background. Funny that this doesn't come up more often...

 

IMO the Lannister’s are associated with killing their enemies with water. The Reynes were drowned, and Tywin send a minstrel to play the Reynes of Castamere before smashing the Tarbecks with siege engines. Cersei pushed her childhood friend Melaria down a well simply because Melaria asked Maggie the Frog if she would marry Jaime. 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

while her real son Monster is being raised by the Nights Watch at the Wall. Monster's father (Craster) and Aemon's mother (Dalla) are already "in the crypts". Aemon is a bit young before he'd ever get a chance at killing his Bael-like father Mance, unawares. Bael's son became the Lord of Winterfell, so Aemon might have a lordship in his future, and just like Bael's son wasn't really the Lord's son, Aemon isn't Sam's either. Lastly, Aemon's bael-ish father is being held in a cage by the Boltons. The only thing missing from this story is a jump from a tower. Falling down a well would work too. I've got a bad feeling about Gilly

Maybe Gilly or Sam will push Lord Tarly from a tower to complete the cycle?

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Anyone ever read Roger Zelazny's "Lord of Light"?

Melesandra uses a lot of quotes & whatnot from this book...

--

Regardless of whether or not GRRM used Zelazny's "Lord of Light" for inspiration, It is a great read in it's own right!

Excellent writing. Very Funny writing style. Above all, "Lord of Light", tells a truly unique story... 

--

If interested; The Complete Audiobook is available for free on YouTube...

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8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO the Lannister’s are associated with killing their enemies with water. The Reynes were drowned, and Tywin send a minstrel to play the Reynes of Castamere before smashing the Tarbecks with siege engines. Cersei pushed her childhood friend Melaria down a well simply because Melaria asked Maggie the Frog if she would marry Jaime. 

This is an interesting interpretation of Melaria’s death. I took it to mean Cersei killed her so Melaria wouldn’t repeat the prophecy about Cersei

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15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Apparently castration has an effect on a male's voice if done before puberty. The lower register of the voice is considered a "super- high" tenor. If castration is done after puberty, it shouldn't an effect on the voice.

Castration prior to puberty also causes unusually long limbs, because the lack of testosterone prevents the normal hardening of bone joints. A castrated male would have longer rib bones as well, allowing for greater lung capacity. 

More on Castratos...

I thought the high pitched voice was common knowledge, but I never heard of long limbs.  If this is correct, I wonder if GRRM knows it.  We don't see any description about the Unsullied having unusually long limbs, and no reason to believe they are all lying about being castrated.

I did look for Vary's voice, and we don't have much, we do have him giggle like a little girl, then this.

Quote

Varys smiled apologetically. “I will not keep you long, my lord. There are things you must know. You are the King’s Hand, and the king is a fool.” The eunuch’s cloying tones were gone; now his voice was thin and sharp as a whip.

So we don't know if it is high pitched or not, but Varys seems to have a distinctive voice he may be disguising.

For Varys's castration story to be true, it isn't necessary he is castrated before puberty, although that seems to make the most sense.  He certainly was old enough to know what was going on, and young enough that the majority of what shape his life was after.

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3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This is an interesting interpretation of Melaria’s death. I took it to mean Cersei killed her so Melaria wouldn’t repeat the prophecy about Cersei

 

Quote

“What is a valonqar? Some monster?” The golden girl did not like that foretelling. “You’re a liar and a warty frog and a smelly old savage, and I don’t believe a word of what you say. Come away, Melara. She is not worth hearing.” 

“I get three questions too,” her friend insisted. And when Cersei tugged upon her arm, she wriggled free and turned back to the crone. “Will I marry Jaime?” she blurted out. 

You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords and dogs and horses . . . and for her, his twin. 

“Not Jaime, nor any other man,” said Maggy. “Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close.” 

 

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1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

 

Oh, I wasn't saying that wasn't what Melaria was told or that Cersei wasn't irritated by it.  I mean that her actual rationale for killing Melaria was so that Melaria did not spread the prophecy about Cersei.  For Cersei to kill Melaria over Jaime would mean, to me, that she was threatened by her, something that is clearly not the case.

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17 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Oh, I wasn't saying that wasn't what Melaria was told or that Cersei wasn't irritated by it.  I mean that her actual rationale for killing Melaria was so that Melaria did not spread the prophecy about Cersei.  For Cersei to kill Melaria over Jaime would mean, to me, that she was threatened by her, something that is clearly not the case.

Are you sure? IMO that's Cersei's MO. She swiftly kills any perceived threat if she thinks she can get away with it.

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1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

Are you sure? IMO that's Cersei's MO. She swiftly kills any perceived threat if she thinks she can get away with it.

 

22 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords and dogs and horses . . . and for her, his twin. 

Even here in this line, Cersei is saying that Jaime doesn't notice Melara.  Also

Quote

"Safe." The word tasted bitter on her tongue. Jaime did not understand. No one understood. Only Melara had been in the tent to hear the old hag's croaking threats, and Melara was long dead. "Tyrion will not kill the same way twice. He is too cunning for that. He could be under the floor even now, listening to every word we say and making plans to open Tommen's throat."

Quote

"The maegi." The words came tumbling out of her. She could still hear Melara Hetherspoon insisting that if they never spoke about the prophecies, they would not come true. She was not so silent in the well, though

To me, this seems to indicate that it was Melara hearing the prophecy that was the issue.

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42 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

 

Even here in this line, Cersei is saying that Jaime doesn't notice Melara.  Also

To me, this seems to indicate that it was Melara hearing the prophecy that was the issue.

This makes sense too.

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