Jon killing Dany doesn’t work for me

[Apoplexy]

10 hours ago, Techmaester said:

 

Well as we wrote about before the outcome wasn't guaranteed. I can only say that if myself and my Aunt were the last of our family line(and apparently an actual separate people with magical abilities), surviving a war sent upon us by my parents killers there is no way I would I kill her regardless of what she did as it would guarantee an end to us. I would do what I could to prevent violence but I wouldn't kill her. That's crossing a line for me that's not acceptable. 

 

I personally am against capital punishment and wouldn't kill anyone. But in the context of the show, I don't blame Jon.

[Apoplexy]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

He swore allegiance to Dany who was his Queen. And, his closest living relative.  Those things are supposed to matter in Westeros (kinslaying, especially is the crime most detested by gods and men).

I agree with you that Daenerys was insane, by the end.  She could not be allowed to rule.  But given his oaths, his blood tie, and the fact that she could not be held morally responsible for her actions, by reason of her state of mind, the morally correct course of action was to attempt to take her into custody.  Difficult, yes, but he had thousands of soldiers of his own so a coup would not have been impossible.

 

Not impossible, but again, thousands would have died for one person.

[Apoplexy]

3 hours ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

.

Then, it's a decision on who lives and who dies, made by Jon, based on his emotional attachments.

 

I agree, Jon decided unilaterally. But what else would you suggest he did? Whom should he have consulted? 

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

23 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I agree, Jon decided unilaterally. But what else would you suggest he did? Whom should he have consulted? 

He'd already consulted.

With Tyrion.

Once his options are established as: 'kill her to save my family' or 'stand aside and let my sisters die', he is an assassin.

The point is his motivation is emotional, personal.

For his sisters. They're the swing vote, so to speak.

The millions of innocents spared are a happy consequence as per the dialogue, not his main motivation.

[Techmaester]

1 hour ago, Charles Stuart said:

 

So lets say Jon and Daeny went to another city afterwards, say gulltown in the Vale. Daeny gives her speech about breaking the wheel and the city says nope, not interested before Daeny proceeds to torch and/or sack the place. Do you expect Jon to sit there and not do or say anything about it?

What right does Daeny have to expect that of anyone? Only a tyrant expects such blind obedience.

Her starting to attack previous allies is obviously a big shift which wasn't done yet. I think he should strongly argue against it and make Dany choose between their relationship or her continuing this particular path. Even make her choose to kill him which I don't think she would have done. There is quite a lot of in-between "blind obedience" and the way he assassinated her.

But it should be pointed out if the Vale didn't submit to the king they would be attacked either way so Dany wasn't even out of line in doing that.

56 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I personally am against capital punishment and wouldn't kill anyone. But in the context of the show, I don't blame Jon.

I appreciate that, we just disagree.

[Apoplexy]

1 hour ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

He'd already consulted.

With Tyrion.

Once his options are established as: 'kill her to save my family' or 'stand aside and let my sisters die', he is an assassin.

The point is his motivation is emotional, personal.

For his sisters. They're the swing vote, so to speak.

The millions of innocents spared are a happy consequence as per the dialogue, not his main motivation.

Does primary motivation really matter that much in this case? Wouldn't any person automatically care more about family than strangers?

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

6 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Does primary motivation really matter that much in this case? Wouldn't any person automatically care more about family than strangers?

So, an emotional justification for murder is the same as a moral one.

Ok.

Just don't tell me he had to kill her because he was the 'perfect knight' trope.

[Apoplexy]

36 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

So, an emotional justification for murder is the same as a moral one.

Ok.

Just don't tell me he had to kill her because he was the 'perfect knight' trope.

What if the emotional and moral course lead in the same direction? How is that not the perfect knight trope?

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

6 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

What if the emotional and moral course lead in the same direction? How is that not the perfect knight trope?

Because the emotional factor was the deciding factor. 

Before Tyrion made sure to point out the threat to his sisters?

He was just going to leave.

Then, he decided to kill her.

[Rose of Red Lake]

My issue is, why did it take Jon so long to realize this. Arya already told him Sansa wouldn't accept Dany as queen. How many times does he need to be told before he gets it? Is he suffering from PTSD or something? The writing is also inconsistent because he knows in S7 that his people won't accept a southern ruler, then he thinks they'll see Dany for "what" she is (why the vague terminology?), then he says he warned Dany about the Northerners not wanting her, then he says she'll make a good queen for the North. Like what is going on. Why is he so dense in one scene but aware in the next. This is all over the place. 

[RYShh]

44 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

My issue is, why did it take Jon so long to realize this. Arya already told him Sansa wouldn't accept Dany as queen. How many times does he need to be told before he gets it? Is he suffering from PTSD or something? The writing is also inconsistent because he knows in S7 that his people won't accept a southern ruler, then he thinks they'll see Dany for "what" she is (why the vague terminology?), then he says he warned Dany about the Northerners not wanting her, then he says she'll make a good queen for the North. Like what is going on. Why is he so dense in one scene but aware in the next. This is all over the place. 

Why? Do you think Jon should've given up on his vow so easily?

[Rose of Red Lake]

Just now, RYShh said:

Why? Do you think Jon should've gave up on his vow so easily?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm asking why the writing for him is inconsistent. Because he himself says titles don't matter. That whoever sits on the Iron Throne doesn't matter. He comes to realize that being the shield that guards the realms of men is enough when he's talking to Beric in S7. He had to realize at some point that whoever wants the IT that badly is going to be a threat to Westeros and his own family, who didn't want him to bend the knee in the first place. Furthermore, if Jon is really half-wildling as some people believe he is, why does he suddenly become a kneeler? Tormund: "You'll never be a kneeler again." Jon in S8: "MAHH KWEEEN!"

If the choice is Dany vs. his sisters or Winterfell, I don't understand the difficulty. I understand if he's concerned about being a kinslayer, or his own honor. I understand that he'd be torn up about taking a life. But after witnessing Dany's destructive capabilities, this shouldn't even be a question. This is something he knew in the Ygritte storyline. The wildlings were a threat to his people. He betrayed Ygritte instantly and didn't hedge. Since we're basically repeating that storyline all over again (GRRM is doing this? really?) Jon should have picked up on things faster. 

Why did he give Dany that look when he burned Lyanna's dead body? What was that about?

At one moment he appears to understand the problem, later he has no clue what's going on. Perhaps it's a symptom of making Dany the center of the plot and blocking out Jon's POV.

[Apoplexy]

51 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Because the emotional factor was the deciding factor. 

Before Tyrion made sure to point out the threat to his sisters?

He was just going to leave.

Then, he decided to kill her.

It may have been when Jon decided, but we cannot know Jon wouldn't go through with it had his sisters not been under threat. Tyrion was just piling up why he should do it. 

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

20 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

It may have been when Jon decided, but we cannot know Jon wouldn't go through with it had his sisters not been under threat. Tyrion was just piling up why he should do it. 

Tyrion's own motivations were also at least partly self serving. Selfpreservation is a mighty good motive to get someone to get rid of your executioner.

But you're right, we don't know if he would've killed Daenerys if his sisters weren't under threat either.

We just see a conversation.

But he was slapped in the face with that fact that his sisters would be killed.

And then he went and killed her.

[RYShh]

28 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm asking why the writing for him is inconsistent. Because he himself says titles don't matter. That whoever sits on the Iron Throne doesn't matter. He comes to realize that being the shield that guards the realms of men is enough when he's talking to Beric in S7. He had to realize at some point that whoever wants the IT that badly is going to be a threat to Westeros and his own family, who didn't want him to bend the knee in the first place. Furthermore, if Jon is really half-wildling as some people believe he is, why does he suddenly become a kneeler? Tormund: "You'll never be a kneeler again." Jon in S8: "MAHH KWEEEN!"

If the choice is Dany vs. his sisters or Winterfell, I don't understand the difficulty. I understand if he's concerned about being a kinslayer, or his own honor. I understand that he'd be torn up about taking a life. But after witnessing Dany's destructive capabilities, this shouldn't even be a question. This is something he knew in the Ygritte storyline. The wildlings were a threat to his people. He betrayed Ygritte instantly and didn't hedge. Since we're basically repeating that storyline all over again (GRRM is doing this? really?) Jon should have picked up on things faster. 

Why did he give Dany that look when he burned Lyanna's dead body? What was that about?

At one moment he appears to understand the problem, later he has no clue what's going on. Perhaps it's a symptom of making Dany the center of the plot and blocking out Jon's POV.

Jon wasn't a kneeler until Daenerys came to rescue him from beyond the wall and she lost a dragon because of it, Jon felt guilty about it so I guess that's why he knelt. 

Even Tyrion wasn't going to betray Daenerys (he even caused Varys's death because of her) until he sees that Daenerys is capable of burning the KL alive, I think it's fair for Jon to wait that long when even Tyrion (as the hand of the queen) waited that long and caused Varys's death at the end.

[Rose of Red Lake]

14 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Jon wasn't a kneeler until Daenerys came to rescue him from beyond the wall and she lost a dragon because of it, Jon felt guilty about it so I guess that's why he knelt. 

Even Tyrion wasn't going to betray Daenerys (he even caused Varys's death because of her) until he sees that Daenerys is capable of burning the KL alive, I think it's fair for Jon to wait that long when even Tyrion (as the hand of the queen) waited that long and caused Varys's death at the end.

Don't even get me started on wight hunt rescue - this was just as badly written as anything in s8. 

This was a mission that Jon had to go on because Dany couldn't just leave Cersei alone. She went through all that to have Cersei to lie to her. "My dragon died so we could be here" - how petulant. 

Jon knew his own people wouldn't kneel or accept her and in E1 he reminds her again that they wouldn't like her.

Tyrion at least admits he has treasonous thoughts. We have no idea what Jon's thoughts were.

[RYShh]

10 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Don't even get me started on wight hunt rescue - this was just as badly written as anything in s8. 

This was a mission that Jon had to go on because Dany couldn't just leave Cersei alone. She went through all that to have Cersei to lie to her. "My dragon died so we could be here" - how petulant. 

Jon knew his own people wouldn't kneel or accept her and in E1 he reminds her again that they wouldn't like her.

Tyrion at least admits he has treasonous thoughts. We have no idea what Jon's thoughts were.

Actually we know;

''Tyrion: Would you have done it?

Jon: What?

Tyrion: You've been up there, on a dragon's back. You've had that power. Would you have burned the city down?

Jon: I don't know.

Tyrion: Yes, you do. You won't say because you don't want to betray her but you know.

Jon: What's it matter what I'd do?

Tyrion: It matters more than anything.'' 

As Tyrion says, he doesn't say it because he doesn't want to betray her.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, RYShh said:

Actually we know;

''Tyrion: Would you have done it?

Jon: What?

Tyrion: You've been up there, on a dragon's back. You've had that power. Would you have burned the city down?

Jon: I don't know.

Tyrion: Yes, you do. You won't say because you don't want to betray her but you know.

Jon: What's it matter what I'd do?

Tyrion: It matters more than anything.'' 

As Tyrion says, he doesn't say it because he doesn't want to betray her.

How is having another character tell us Jon's thoughts, revealing Jon's POV? Jon apparently cant speak for himself and has to have others do it for him. This is stupid writing. 

[Dragonslack]

And there it is! The motive, how Tyrion convinced him was to mention the sisters. So it was not honor or for the people or not kneeling or being the rightful heir. It was personal, selfish reasons. Close family trumps distant family that you fucked and love.

 

It is however another example of bad writing. Arya is a killer and ninja that does not need protection neither does she need to kneel or even stay around danny. As for Sansa, she is lady of winterfell at best, he is and would be ruler of the north even if submitting to danny in theory. She already said "Winterfell is yours". Not even Robert interfered very much in the North.

Cop-out chaotic act. You only kill a ruler if you have something else in mind. Take the throne yourself for example. The damage was done in Westeros. Would they all go to war and assassinations for the people of Essos? Clearly not, they did not interfere or condemn the slave trade.

[Techmaester]

Why do people keep calling Arya and Sansa his sisters? He was technically closer to Dany. Worse yet, he was always accepted by Dany while he was always rejected by his "Stark" family.