Heresy 225 and the Snowflakes of Doom

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not so sure. In the first place the spirit seems to be still trapped in the bones, and more importantly there's a simple question of arithmetic. If, as I think is being implied, its suggested that the wights are the husks left behind after their spirits have been drawn off to create the walkers then there ought to be as many if not more walkers than wights. Yet the reverse is the case. We find large numbers of wights - whole armies of them - with only a couple of walkers riding herd. The most we've ever seen at one time were the six who scragged Ser Waymar.

I'm not so sure the spirit is trapped inside the bones, although we are given the idea that the "bones remember" from Melisandre, which she uses for glamours. So perhaps that translates better to what is going on with the wights. Not their spirit as a whole, but part of it that is tied to the bones. I don't think that every person is killed is left as a husk of a wight while it's spirit forms a white walker, because as you say, the numbers don't fit that idea. The White Walkers are something more powerful and special than the wights.

Yet something animates the wights, gives them purpose. It's either the White Walker's/Other's or it's something far greater. If it's the WW/Other's, then I think their connection to the wights might be just like Stannis' to his shadow. He doesn't want to believe what his dreams tell him, but he saw through his shadow, lived through his shadow and killed through his shadow. Stannis never mentions any dreams about killing Penrose, but I wonder if he had those too, and that he isn't disturbed by them like he is about the thought of killing Renly. Interestingly, both Renly and Cortnay Penrose threw some sass at Stannis and he didn't appreciate it from either of them. Is Stannis grey and haggard because he is giving part of himself away, or is it because he is a kinslayer?

So, I don't think the physical manifestation of Stannis to the black shadow is the same as WW/Other's to thewights, but I think the mind connection could be similar. Stannis has more than one shadow (at least two) and as far as we know, nothing destroyed them. Each WW could connect to multiple wights and see through their eyes and motivate the actions of the wights.

If it's not the WW/Other's that animate the wights, then it's something else, something bigger and stronger than the Other's themselves. Perhaps like a super being that drives the wights. And both the WW/Other's and the wights are slaves to it?  And some counterpart to Melisandre is what gives birth to the Other's, also as a servant of this super being?

 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I wouldn't be surprised to see Mel draining Stannis in ways other than creating the Shadow babies.   But 2 shadows are powerful, and if she could create many more, she'd be far too powerful.   Renly was basically defenseless against his fate.

Renly was defenseless. Absolutely. Probably so was Cortnay Penrose. Waymar Royce might have been just as defenseless, even though it seems like it might have been an equal match for a while.  But if Waymar had beaten the first Other, would he have had to face each of the other Other's in turn? Still, those white shadows did seem to at least offer the appearance of a chance, which is different than what we see with Renly and what I assume went down with Penrose. 

What other ways besides shadow babies do you think Mel could be using to drain Stannis? There is a ruby set into the hilt of Stannis' Lightbringer. Could Mel be using this to control Stannis in some way? If so, is it easier to control him if some of his spirit has been drained off him?

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not so sure. In the first place the spirit seems to be still trapped in the bones, and more importantly there's a simple question of arithmetic. If, as I think is being implied, its suggested that the wights are the husks left behind after their spirits have been drawn off to create the walkers then there ought to be as many if not more walkers than wights. Yet the reverse is the case. We find large numbers of wights - whole armies of them - with only a couple of walkers riding herd. The most we've ever seen at one time were the six who scragged Ser Waymar.

I'm saying they can make multiple shadow/thralls in the same way that Mel can make multiple shadow-babies provided she has 'life' to draw on.  So there doesn't have to be a one to one ratio.  Mel controls the shadow in some way for a short period of time although Stannis dreams of the killings while they happen.  The difference is that her shadow babies can't take a permanent form; while the WW can trap the shadows they make in a dead body. 

[LynnS]

17 hours ago, St Daga said:

Yet something animates the wights, gives them purpose. It's either the White Walker's/Other's or it's something far greater.

I think of Othor and Jafr as equivalent to Mel's shadow assassins.  She can only control the shadow for a short period of time while the WWs can control them at will, so long as their bodies remain intact.  The only threat is fire.  The killing cold takes their victim's lives. While Mel is restricted to taking only as much as Stannis can bear.  She also uses Edric Storm's blood for her fires and presses Stannis to let her take is entire life force and snuff out his life for her use.      

[asongofheresy]

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

I actually would rather like it if the Great Other was a female. It balances out the idea that R'hller as a god is a male. And maybe that is why the shadows she births seem to be more powerful or long lasting than the shadows that Mel gives birth too! 

I  wonder if there is a Trinity concept with husband, wife, son concept in asoiaf, like the one in Qur'an not Xtinanity, and Rhllor (AA), TGO, LB are the aspects of it? - unrelated I am starting to think Dawn Emperors were Greenseers, Pearl = Grey King, Jade = Peremore the Twisted, Bloodstone = one green one red eye maybe? 

[Brad Stark]

8 hours ago, St Daga said:

Renly was defenseless. Absolutely. Probably so was Cortnay Penrose. Waymar Royce might have been just as defenseless, even though it seems like it might have been an equal match for a while.  But if Waymar had beaten the first Other, would he have had to face each of the other Other's in turn? Still, those white shadows did seem to at least offer the appearance of a chance, which is different than what we see with Renly and what I assume went down with Penrose. 

What other ways besides shadow babies do you think Mel could be using to drain Stannis? There is a ruby set into the hilt of Stannis' Lightbringer. Could Mel be using this to control Stannis in some way? If so, is it easier to control him if some of his spirit has been drained off him?

Waymar lost because he didn't have the right weapon.   We never will know if he had a chance if he had obsidian or Valyrian steel, but we do know the Others are one of the biggest threats in the series. 

In contrast,  I don't get the feeling Renly would have a chance even with a weapon that could work- slicing his gorget like that is impossible to defend.   And if Mel could control a dozen or so shadows, she'd easily wipe out any possible opposition. I've theorized someone is controlling the Others, but we have no proof. 

One contradiction I cannot explain- it seems clear Mel believes Stannis is the one, but also seems to know she is using him up.  Shouldn't she be more careful not to hurt him if she believes he is Azor Ahai?

 

[LynnS]

17 hours ago, St Daga said:

What other ways besides shadow babies do you think Mel could be using to drain Stannis? There is a ruby set into the hilt of Stannis' Lightbringer. Could Mel be using this to control Stannis in some way? If so, is it easier to control him if some of his spirit has been drained off him? 

I think the ruby has more to do with glamoring the sword so it gives off the light show without the heat.  Mance's ruby was slaved to her ruby.  So we can assume that Rattleshirt had a similar shackle with a ruby.  We know there was feedback from the fire to Mel when she started to burn him, until Jon Snow killed him.  Saving Mel from going up in smoke herself.  Her power is greater at the Wall, so she may also be channeling some of the Wall's power.  She is starting to think she can create even more powerful shadows as well:
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

She thinks her shadows can overcome the wight shadows and the white walkers.  She is seeking for a way to become more powerful.  I think it's possible that she will sacrifice anyone to make that happen.  I think of Jon Snow's blood spilling out onto the snow.

[redriver]

"Soft as a woman's kiss,you're kiss."

How would Manceshirt know that?I think our latest shadow baby is already on the way.

I doubt he would know that himself but we know he likes the ladies.Could his current mission be considered a sacrifice?It certainly seems a bit risky.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, redriver said:

"Soft as a woman's kiss,you're kiss."

How would Manceshirt know that?I think our latest shadow baby is already on the way.

I doubt he would know that himself but we know he likes the ladies.Could his current mission be considered a sacrifice?It certainly seems a bit risky. 

Melisandre's bag of tricks:
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

While the boy was gone, Melisandre washed herself and changed her robes. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

 

Powders to make a flame roar and hiss... seems she used that one on the 'horn of winter' when she burned it.  Her men conveniently dumped it into a ditch as soon as it put on the show.  I'm guessing it's still there unharmed.

Which potions did she use on Mance I wonder?  Truth and lust?  I wonder if she has used anything on Selyse.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think the ruby has more to do with glamoring the sword so it gives off the light show without the heat.  Mance's ruby was slaved to her ruby.  So we can assume that Rattleshirt had a similar shackle with a ruby.  We know there was feedback from the fire to Mel when she started to burn him, until Jon Snow killed him.  Saving Mel from going up in smoke herself.  Her power is greater at the Wall, so she may also be channeling some of the Wall's power.  She is starting to think she can create even more powerful shadows as well:

 

 

The ruby would certainly explain why the sword actually does radiate light - or appear to.

On the whole I get the impression from the Mel POV chapter that she may not fully understand her own powers, or rather may not understand where they come from. We've discussed before that she [and Moqorro] are not truly alive but are fire made flesh. While Craster's boys create their bodies out of ice crystals, Mel relies on glamours and in creating the shadow babies draws forth smoke from her own fire, using some of Stannis' life force rather than powders, and more directly drawing on her own fire to destroy Orell.

If the magic in the Wall amplifies her powers, that could explain why destroying Orell almost killed her - the "current" is far stronger than she's used to.

[asongofheresy]

A question for you, you know how kindly man told Arya, a gift was given to masters as well? What if that gift was the prophetic ability of Daenys the Dreamer and her descendants? 

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The ruby would certainly explain why the sword actually does radiate light - or appear to.

On the whole I get the impression from the Mel POV chapter that she may not fully understand her own powers, or rather may not understand where they come from. We've discussed before that she [and Moqorro] are not truly alive but are fire made flesh. While Craster's boys create their bodies out of ice crystals, Mel relies on glamours and in creating the shadow babies draws forth smoke from her own fire, using some of Stannis' life force rather than powders, and more directly drawing on her own fire to destroy Orell.

If the magic in the Wall amplifies her powers, that could explain why destroying Orell almost killed her - the "current" is far stronger than she's used to.

I agree, I don't think she knows a lot about her own power or the source of it.  She seems to know something about the Others, that they are made from ice and snow and cold; but she didn't know about the dragonglass, until she learned about Samwell the Slayer.  So there are gaps in her knowledge.  The Great Other might actually be a collective term for the WW's and wights as a whole.   I think she is equivalent to the WWs, flesh made into ice as well.    Davos calls her the Mother of Shadows.

I'm still unsure of her fire visions.  When she sees BR and Bran the Wolf in her visions, she is looking for this great other.  Bran is actually hidden from her.  She sees the wolf, but not the boy.  And later she sees someone, that I suspect is Bran/Hodor and dismisses him because he doesn't have a fearful aspect for the evil one.  So I'm not sure what we are being told about Bran here.  He is the One that Coldhands was sent to find, and the one whose name cannot be spoken (at least by Samwell); and the cotf have been waiting for the Bran boy for a long time.  So perhaps he is also one of the promised ones.  

 

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

A question for you, you know how kindly man told Arya, a gift was given to masters as well? What if that gift was the prophetic ability of Daenys the Dreamer and her descendants? 

I'm a bit fuzzy.  Is there a quote to clarify?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

... The Great Other might actually be a collective term for the WW's and wights as a whole.   I think she is equivalent to the WWs, flesh made into ice as well.    Davos calls her the Mother of Shadows.

I'm not convinced that there is a Great Other. I certainly don't believe that he's the chief of the Others and doubt that there is any connection. For a long time I've been suggesting that the reason why the the Great Other's name may never be spoken is because it is R'hllor.

While Mel and the rest of the Red Lot see this in the nature of a final conflict, I'm more in line with the Reeds and the Oath - that the land is one, and the real danger comes from those, like Mel, who believe that there is a conflict which they must engage in and win.

Remember that GRRM is a child of the Cold War and that not only is the Wall a metaphor for the German Wall which came down just months before he started writing ASoIF, but the whole business of the Ice versus Fire conflict is a metaphor for the Cold War and Mutually Assured Destruction.

[asongofheresy]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm a bit fuzzy.  Is there a quote to clarify?

It's in AFFC Arya chapter where kindly man theaches her about Faceless Men history with them being founded on Valyria and giving the first gift to slave miner, then he says gift was given to masters as well. 

[LynnS]

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"Didn't the slaves rise up and fight?"

"Some did," he said. "Revolts were common in the mines, but few accomplished much. The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril. The first Faceless Man was one who did."

"Who was he?" Arya blurted, before she stopped to think.

"No one," he answered. "Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder's son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows. Whoever he was, he moved amongst the slaves and would hear them at their prayers. Men of a hundred different nations labored in the mines, and each prayed to his own god in his own tongue, yet all were praying for the same thing. It was release they asked for, an end to pain. A small thing, and simple. Yet their gods made no answer, and their suffering went on. Are their gods all deaf? he wondered . . . until a realization came upon him, one night in the red darkness.

"All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces . . . and he was that god's instrument. That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The first gift had been given."

Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!"

"He would bring the gift to them as well . . . but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one." He cocked his head. "And who are you, child?"

 

14 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

It's in AFFC Arya chapter where kindly man theaches her about Faceless Men history with them being founded on Valyria and giving the first gift to slave miner, then he says gift was given to masters as well. 

Moqorro tells the tale of the fate of the masters:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

"Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god's own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."

"Some smaller than others." Valyria. It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted.

An empire built on blood and fire. The Valyrians reaped the seed they had sown. "Does our captain mean to test the curse?"

 

I'll be curious to read the kindly old man's version of this tale and how the faceless men are connected.

[St Daga]

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

Mel is restricted to taking only as much as Stannis can bear.  She also uses Edric Storm's blood for her fires and presses Stannis to let her take is entire life force and snuff out his life for her use.

It's not quite the same, what Mel does with Stannis and Edric. She uses Stannis' seed to grow shadow's in her womb. She uses Edric's blood to have Stannis curse Robb, Balon and Joffrey. We don't know how she would have used Edric's life if she could have given him to the flames, but it still seems different than what she does with Stannis. I think the seed and womb is what make this different, and different from Jafer and Othor wights. 

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

On 8/3/2019 at 11:26 AM, St Daga said:

What other ways besides shadow babies do you think Mel could be using to drain Stannis? There is a ruby set into the hilt of Stannis' Lightbringer. Could Mel be using this to control Stannis in some way? If so, is it easier to control him if some of his spirit has been drained off him? 

I think the ruby has more to do with glamoring the sword so it gives off the light show without the heat.  Mance's ruby was slaved to her ruby.  So we can assume that Rattleshirt had a similar shackle with a ruby.  We know there was feedback from the fire to Mel when she started to burn him, until Jon Snow killed him.  Saving Mel from going up in smoke herself.  Her power is greater at the Wall, so she may also be channeling some of the Wall's power.  She is starting to think she can create even more powerful shadows as well:

Do we ever see Stannis without the sword he calls Lightbringer, after it is cleaned up from its dunk in the flames on Dragonstone. If Stannis wears the sword constantly, how does that differ from Mance wearing a bracelet. We don't know if Rattleshirt had a ruby. The man is burned and he isn't wearing much and no such jewel stands out. "Mance Rayder wore only a thin tunic that left his limbs naked to the cold."

Mance's bracelet might be part of a glamour, but then why do the bones matter?  So perhaps the ruby is only to control him and has nothing to do with the glamour? Although I certainly think the sword is probably glamoured, also. Perhaps that ruby in Lightbringer's hilt serves more than one purpose? 

Just because Mel felt like she was burning when Rattleshirt did, I don't think it meant she actually was. She would have survived that burning, regardless of Jon's archer's actions, or she would not have staged such an act. I don't think she will do anything to risk her own life (whatever that really entails) until she feels like her job is finished.

Back to Rattleshirt for a moment. It seems like Mance has to wear the bone armor to make the glamour stronger. Mel alludes to a bag of fingerbones in regards to glamour's, too. Davos is missing his fingerbones, so does this mean Mel plans to make a glamour of Davos at some time, for some purpose? It seems likely, but why?

 

[St Daga]

22 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

I  wonder if there is a Trinity concept with husband, wife, son concept in asoiaf, like the one in Qur'an not Xtinanity, and Rhllor (AA), TGO, LB are the aspects of it? - unrelated I am starting to think Dawn Emperors were Greenseers, Pearl = Grey King, Jade = Peremore the Twisted, Bloodstone = one green one red eye maybe? 

I think there are multiple trinity's in play, although I have not thought about mother, father, son. I especially think there is a trinity that involves father, son and spirit or ghost.  Catelyn herself involves all three aspects of maiden, mother, and crone. I think there is a sibling trinity that is important in Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion, and perhaps in what Rhaegar and Elia were trying to build with their "the dragon has three heads" business. However, if there is a parentage trinity, off the top of my head it's interesting that Ned, Cat and Robb are all dead. That is a trinity that combines aspects of winter and ice and mud and water, and a kingdom of north (Ned) and riverlands (Cat) that died with Robb Stark. I do see a trinity in Azor Ahai, Nissa Nissa and Lightbringer. Then husband and wife play, but does that make Lightbringer a figurative "son" or an actual one?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not convinced that there is a Great Other. I certainly don't believe that he's the chief of the Others and doubt that there is any connection. For a long time I've been suggesting that the reason why the the Great Other's name may never be spoken is because it is R'hllor.

While Mel and the rest of the Red Lot see this in the nature of a final conflict, I'm more in line with the Reeds and the Oath - that the land is one, and the real danger comes from those, like Mel, who believe that there is a conflict which they must engage in and win.

Remember that GRRM is a child of the Cold War and that not only is the Wall a metaphor for the German Wall which came down just months before he started writing ASoIF, but the whole business of the Ice versus Fire conflict is a metaphor for the Cold War and Mutually Assured Destruction.

I think Mel's great other is something or someone; just not what she thinks.  When stories like the Night King are stripped of their mythology they will turn out to be something completely different.   In both cases, I'm guessing these stories will turn around Bran and Jon. 

Your metaphor is apposite and describes the stakes very well.

[St Daga]

16 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

One contradiction I cannot explain- it seems clear Mel believes Stannis is the one, but also seems to know she is using him up.  Shouldn't she be more careful not to hurt him if she believes he is Azor Ahai?

I think she is aware and is trying to be careful. Doesn't she say that she cannot make anymore shadow's with Stannis or it will kill him? I think this is when she offers to make a shadow with Davos?