Where did Elia fit in the Lyanna-Rhaegar relationship?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

But she didn't act exclusively on intuition. She had learned about magic through her ordeal with MMD, it was that and her intuition that she used.

She didn't learn anything. 'Only blood can pay for life' isn't a lesson. If the grandmother of some Westerosi died of old age we can be pretty sure that she is not going to come back from the dead no matter how many women are bound to her pyre and burned with her, no?

She had no rational reason to believe burning Mirri with Drogo would have any magical effect.

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

It depends on what knowledge Rhaegar acted on (which may have been more than just the words of a single prophecy), and that's something we don't know.

It makes no sense to fill the blanks with 'Rhaegar may have known this or that'. What we actually do know is that the most recent prophecy was that of the Ghost of High Heart and she only talked about the bloodline of Aerys II and Rhaella, not who among their potentially thousands of descendants would be the promised prince.

Aemon and Aerys II and Rhaella and Rhaegar had no good reason to assume Rhaegar was the promised prince and Rhaegar himself clearly had no good reason to believe Aegon was the promised prince. Which makes his insistence that Aegon 'the promised prince' needed some other dragon head pretty mad. Acting when you don't even have confirmation that your assumption/belief is correct is both stupid and bordering on the mad.

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

He may have studied various sources before he concluded that he had something to do.

We don't have any indication that Rhaegar collected ancient scrolls or studied at the Citadel or investigated things. He read much as a child, but then he started to train to be a great warrior. And in his spare time he played his harp and sung and wrote songs.

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Cersei is totally different, as she tried to prevent a prophecy from coming true, a prophecy which was formulated without any conditions, and she definitely didn't try to understand how prophecies work, which Rhaegar may have done. 

The common thing here is that Cersei and Rhaegar both things they figured out a crucial part of their prophecies - Rhaegar who the promised prince was (twice, in his stupidity) and Cersei who 'the younger, more beautiful queen' was. Sure, Cersei wanted to prevent prophecy from becoming true and Rhaegar and Mel want to make it come true, that is a difference, but both are stupid and presumptuous and mad to believe they can mess with powers they definitely don't understand and which don't need mortal morons to ensure things turn out as they are destined to turn out.

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Perhaps. But a prophecy can be formulated with a condition ("If..."), and we don't know the exact wording of this one. It's fair to assume that there must have been something that prompted Rhaegar to act.

Nothing indicates that this prophecy has any conditions attached to it. We have the bleeding star, and the place of smoke and salt. Rhaegar's belief that the promised prince was conceived in a night he fucked his wife is one of the most presumptuous ideas in the entire story since it is a desperate attempt to make believe he was important in this metaphysical theater. Both the star and the salt and smoke refer to birth and/or rebirth, not conception. Rhaegar really is really nearly as silly as Mel who believes she can make Stannis into a prophesied savior by staging events mentioned in the prophecy as if prophecy was some kind of script she can rip off to make come true.

There is a possibility that Rhaegar got some kind of personal prophecy, perhaps from the Ghost, during his journey after Aegon's birth with his companions which eventually led him back to the Riverlands. But this prophecy would have then come after he mistakenly believed that he was the promised prince and that his son Aegon was the promised prince - which both show how much of a nutcase he was. As does his belief per the vision of the House of the Undying that Aegon, the child who likely isn't the promised prince, needed another dragon head.

Chances that Rhaegar got some kind of prophecy that was particularly clear also is pretty far-fetched since nobody mentioned any of that up this point. In fact, I'd doubt he got any clear insight since George isn't the kind of author who would write this kind of stuff some people would like to write about - that Rhaegar is going to be vindicated posthumously because he did the right thing.

All the actual bleeding star, smoke and salt, dragons waking from stone stuff that Rhaegar likely hoped the promised prince would do/would be about was done by Daenerys, who isn't Rhaegar's daughter.

This doesn't mean Jon Snow cannot be one of the dragon heads (whose roles aren't exactly clear, if they play any in the prophecy) or it might even be that whatever the promised prince/dragon with three heads has to accomplish can only be done by three people acting as one, but the real magical dragon-producing stuff has already be done by somebody who would have been born without Rhaegar trying to bring her birth about.

[frenin]

On 1/21/2020 at 5:00 PM, Julia H. said:

In our worlds, sure. I would do the same. But the world of ASOIAF is different. The reader is made to see that in this world, it is a problem that those in power do not see the approaching threat of magical beings coming from the Far North, which could wipe out the whole kingdom. If you deny the possibility of magic, you deny a part of reality. It was believing in a prophecy that saved the Targaryens only a few centuries ago. What madness must it have seemed at the time to leave behind Valyria and move to a place like Dragonstone for no other reason than a prophecy! Yet, it was the sensible thing to do. 

In the world of ASOIAF is the same, people don't  believe in dreams and prophecies and people are especially wary of dragon dreams for the stupidities those with those dreams do to fulfil them. Thanks god, Davos didn't partake in Stannis' madness.

And there are a more recent prophecy dream that marked Rhaegar's life,  his grand grand daddy, burned him and his loved ones by trying to fulfil a prophecy, that was the sensitive thing to do, right?? Because drinking wildfire believing you'll become a dragon, it's just one of those mistakes.

 

On 1/21/2020 at 5:00 PM, Julia H. said:

Being a medieval wife, was she in a position to say such a thing to her husband the Crown Prince?

 

In normal circumstances, she may not. Within context?? Absolutely, Rhaegar desperately needed Elia's  political support and with Elia already having given birth to the heir of the crown, she didn't need Rhaegar all that much. 

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 5:00 PM, Julia H. said:

 Anyway... perhaps she believed what her husband believed (it wouldn't be so strange), or she may have simply believed that her husband "knew better" - because that was more or less the attitude expected from wives. But it's also possible that she didn't believe in the prophecy at all or didn't care. Actually we don't know whether she was or was not "a resigned woman doing her duty". We know her health was frail, and we cannot exclude the possibility that she was more ill than we have been told, and was therefore more passive than a healthy woman would have been. Or maybe she was sending ravens to her brothers all the time, complaining about Rhaegar, but as far as I remember, there is no indication in the books that her brothers tried to do anything about the problem. We do have at least some indication though that Rhaegar discussed the three heads of the dragon with her. And it's curious that Rhaegar and Lyanna were hiding in Dorne of all places. It just doesn't add up with the image of the angry in-laws in the background. One tries to make sense of every little detail we have... but,of course, it's also possible that hiding in Dorne of all places does not mean anything.

 

Perhaps she loved him to the point of madness, perhaps she was fascinated with the things she was being told, perhaps...

Can you recall having seen any wife with the attitude "my husband knows better" i really cannot and that may be an attitued expected but that's definetely not one women have in the books especially when it comes to their kids. There is no reason to assume Elia was a resigned wife who believe her hubby col¡uld do no wrong and didn't have ideas on her own, that's an attitude not even Seylse has. On top of my mind if i remember mothers, Cersei, Cat, Seylse, Alysanne, Naerys, Mariah Martell, Olenna, Sybell Westerling, Lysa, Mellario etc, none of them have said attitude, they are subdued to their hubbies and have to obeyed them even if they don't like because of the power imbalance, but that's not the same as agreeing with they say. It's incredibly unlikely that Elia, being raised in a place where women have a voice, would actually act like that.

[...] Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution.  SSM The Baratheon Brothers

 

 [...] From Dorne, in defense of Princess Elia, ten thousand spears came over the Boneway and marched to King’s Landing to bolster the host that Rhaegar was raising. Those who were there at court during this time have recounted that Aerys’s behavior was erratic. He was untrusting of any save his Kingsguard—and then only imperfectly, for he kept Ser Jaime Lannister close at all hours to serve as a hostage against his father.
When Prince Rhaegar at last marched up the kingsroad to the Trident, with him were all but one of the Kingsguard who had remained in King’s Landing: Ser Barristan the Bold, Ser Jonothor Darry, and Prince Lewyn of Dorne. Prince Lewyn took command of the Dornish troop sent by his nephew, the Prince Doran, but it is said that he did so only after threats from the Mad King, who feared that the Dornishmen looked to betray him. 

 

 

[...] “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad.

 

It's quite clear that none of the Dornish were ok with what father and son had pulled and were only there because of Elia, about the ToJ, I doubt that Rhaegar was telling everyone he was there.

 

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 5:00 PM, Julia H. said:

 As for the war, I don't think we have to assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna were expecting a war to break out at the time. Conflict, obviously, but a war that would wipe out the dynasty? I'm not at all sure about that. It's easy to be wise in retrospect, but we don't even know how things exactly happaned, much less what plans there had been, what exactly went wrong and how. Until we know more, I will give them the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming that they expected a war to break out and didn't care. 

 

 

There are very few wars in universe that start with the idea of ending a dynasty, neither the Robellion, nor the Wot5k started with said idea, even when both left dynasties at the verge of extiction, but that's the thing about civil wars right?? Once they start and get momentum it's incredibly to predict the outcome and that's a very good reason to not start one. 

If they didn't expect war, they are more idiots than i thought, for one side we have the Martells who would be pretty pissed with the news, for the other we have Robert and the Starks both with of them ties to other Great and Highlords who would without doubt seek for retribution and last but not less you have the Mad King, the idea that it would not be war is incredibly disingenous.

 

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 5:00 PM, Julia H. said:

 As for why Elia would accept Lyanna as the other mother... Well, perhaps she didn't. For all we know, she might have been screaming with anger about it until she died. But it is also possible that she accepted what she couldn't change (as Cat accepted the presence of Jon in Winterfell) and was waiting for future opportunities. She herself couldn't be the mother of the third head without risking her life, so some compromise was necessary, that's all. People are sometimes (often?) forced into a compromise, where they have to accept something they don't like, even in real life. It doesn't mean that they will remain passive afterwards or that they won't be able to make new decisions later.

Cat never accepted Jon's presence in Winterfell and that's a poison all the Starks carry one way or the other, Cat did all she could to send Jon away and the only chance she got to do do it, she did nit flinch.

Compromise was necessary, on that i agree, but not with someone who directly endangered her kids. There is a huge difference in Elia agreeing to Rhaegar banged some nobody that Elia agreeing the Lyanna affair. Elia did not need to agree to that.

 

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 5:00 PM, Julia H. said:

Well, if you think it was wiser for her to start a war (in either a literal or a metaphorical sense) against Rhaegar, we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

Rather than let him humiliate me and put my kids in danger?? Absolutely.

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 5:00 PM, Julia H. said:

Oh, I didn't say she "had to". I was merely pondering the possibilities. But, once we take it as a fact that Rhaegar thought the dragon needed a third head and that Elia couldn't give it to him unless she was literally killed, what were the multiple, multiple choices for Rhaegar?

I can see one, which was keeping quiet about the warning regarding Elia's health and forcing her to have a third child, then, when she dies, saying "Oh, I'm so sorry, who would have thought?" I understand why neither Rhaegar, nor Elia would have wanted to choose this road though. 

There is a rather big gap between that and Lyanna Stark, a sea wide gap, And then again, if Elia does not want to have that child, she can always enjoy that sweet body and after get moontea while hubby is writing sad songs in the halls of dead kings. 

 

 

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 5:00 PM, Julia H. said:

Dany may have been crazy and suicidal, but she didn't simply kill herself in a way to make sure that she would definitely die (for which a dagger would have sufficed). She had a plan. It was a risky plan, a plan based on magic, but a plan that she thought could result in her survival. But she didn't just hope that some magic would occur to save her, she based her plan on her understanding of how the magic could work and acted accordingly. That's probably a huge difference between her and the Brightflame guy. Dany's story shows that in this world, magic is a tool that can work and can be used even if it requires much more skill and caution than using a hammer, for example. 

 

Did she?? IIRC she learnt that only blood can birth life and after that she acted on pure instinct.

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 5:00 PM, Julia H. said:

 As for Stannis, you are obviously making a moral judgement here. Killing an innocent boy, with or without magic and regardless of whether the magic works or not, for personal gain is morally wrong. In this sense, it doesn't matter whether you are acting on a prophecy or on scientific political analysis. 

 

I do not enter of it's morally rong, which it def is, but if it's pure zealotry or not and it's pure zealotry.

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 5:00 PM, Julia H. said:

So, if, by a zealot, you mean a person who strongly believes in nonsense such as magic and prophecies etc., then I will say that in my opinion this definition does not work in the world of ASOIAF, as in this world magic is a reality to reckon with. Failing to do so may be a grave mistake (cf. the White Walkers or the return of the dragons). 

If, by a zealot, you mean a person who strongly believes in something (anything) and / or goes to extremes to pursue a goal, then I think pragmatic Tywin is as much a zealot as Stannis or Mel. (And Stannis is not the same kind of zealot as Mel, because Mel believes in the Red God, on the one hand, and in Stannis being AA, on the other hand, while Stannis simply believes in the idea that he must win the Iron Throne.) Qhorin is also a zealot, that's what makes him willing to sacrifice himself, and even Ned is a zealous champion of the protection of children. 

 

1.  It's magic a reaility to reckon with?? It is, it's magic a reality people can understand, alter or fulfil?? It's not. That's pure zeal,.
2. Tywin has goals and pride and goes to extremes lenghts to satisfy both, that's not zealotry.
3. Stannis is driven by the Throne but he's also driven by the idea of his importance in the grand scheme of things ad that makes him as zealot as Meli.

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 5:00 PM, Julia H. said:

Was Rhaegar a prophecy zealot? He may have been. But that in itself does not mean that acting on the prophecy was stupid or wrong. On the other hand, we can see that while he was quite willing to adjust his own life to the prophecy, he didn't go as far as sacrificing Elia's life. You know, a Tywin-like or Stannis-like or Melisandre-like zealot (cf. AA-ideal) would have had no problem sacrificing the wife to get the required third head of the dragon. Instead, Rhaegar decided to find another option. And that's one reason why I don't believe he foresaw a devastating war that was exclusively the result of his own choices and didn't care. If he wasn't willing to sacrifice Elia's life, why would he have been willing to risk so many lives, including the lives of those near and dear to him?  

If Rhaegar acted on prophecy, he was.  I do think that acting on it was stupid, whether it was wrong or not we shall see,  the outcome was the consequences of his actions were clear as day and he had already tasted how people would act to his actions in Harrenhall, could he fuck Elia to death?? He perfectly could, but Elia was Princess of Dorne in a moment he needed Dorne and Elia had the means and opportunity to abort. 

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 5:20 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Oberyn is aiming his revenge at the Lannisters and not the Targaryens.

Oberyn has a clear priority, destroy those who butchered Elia and he simply can't do that without a Targ restoration, besides, Viserys was a kid when all this happened, both Aerys and Rhaegar are beneath the ground, why would he act against him?? Oberyn is more than ready to use both Tyrion (Casterly Rock) and Sansa (Winterfell) if that serves to destroy Tywin.

[Julia H.]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She didn't learn anything. 'Only blood can pay for life' isn't a lesson. If the grandmother of some Westerosi died of old age we can be pretty sure that she is not going to come back from the dead no matter how many women are bound to her pyre and burned with her, no?

She had no rational reason to believe burning Mirri with Drogo would have any magical effect.

"Rational" is a key word here. But is it according to our own rationalism or according to that of a magical word? 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It makes no sense to fill the blanks with 'Rhaegar may have known this or that'.

There is so much we don't know - not even the exact contents of the prophecy in question, much less why Rhaegar found it so important or what his reason was to think the time had come for the prophecy to be fulfilled. We can be sure, however, that Rhaegar had more details than we do, and it is reasonable to suppose that some of those details may have given him the motivation. He may have been wrong in his interpretation a thousand times, it still doesn't have to mean it was wrong to try and act upon the prophecy or that he was simply nuts (a notion not readily supported by the recollections of those who knew him). It depends on what the ultimate goal was and on what other options Rhaegar faced. I hope we'll find it out.  

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

"Rational" is a key word here. But is it according to our own rationalism or according to that of a magical word?

Educated (i.e. most, if not all, noble) Westerosi don't believe in prophecy. Rhaegar was eccentric if not mad if he believed in prophecy and allowed his interpretations of prophecy to guide his actions. The idea that the Martells - Elia, Oberyn, or Doran - actually condoned and supported this kind of mad shit is very unlikely. And that was the original issue here. Whether Elia bought into/supported Rhaegar's shit - and I don't think she did, especially since nothing indicates she did.

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

There is so much we don't know - not even the exact contents of the prophecy in question, much less why Rhaegar found it so important or what his reason was to think the time had come for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

No, we actually do know something about this. We know the Ghost of High Heart made a prophecy to Rhaegar's grandfather that the bloodline of his children would bring forth the promised prince. That is more than enough background knowledge to explain why Aerys II and Rhaella desperately tried to have more than one child and why people started to believe/hope Rhaegar was the promised prince after Summerhall - he was a son of Aerys and Rhaella, meaning he met one of the most the crucial prerequistes the promised prince as per the Ghost would have to have.

The contents of the ancient prophecy are not so relevant to understand this. And context there seems to be missing. Aemon knows the prophecy but cannot offer anything of substance in AFfC, nor can Marwyn later on.

The best explanation for what I'm comfortable calling Rhaegar's 'madness' is that his family - his father, his mother, his great-great-uncle, his grandfather, etc. - bought into esoteric shit and fed this poor child their delusions that from their line would be born some savior and that as per the prophecies they had there was a good chance that he, Rhaegar, would be this hero. There is no rationality behind all that.

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

We can be sure, however, that Rhaegar had more details than we do, and it is reasonable to suppose that some of those details may have given him the motivation. He may have been wrong in his interpretation a thousand times, it still doesn't have to mean it was wrong to try and act upon the prophecy or that he was simply nuts (a notion not readily supported by the recollections of those who knew him). It depends on what the ultimate goal was and on what other options Rhaegar faced. I hope we'll find it out.  

It is always wrong to try to force the hand of fate/destiny. That's something George makes always clear when talking about prophecy. If you try to understand it, think you understand it, try to make it come true, or try to prevent it you are just making things worse, not better.

I'm not saying Rhaegar suffered from mental illness like his father - rather, that he had the same issues as Aerion Brightflame or Aegon V: trying to force the hand of fate rather than accepting that fate knows how to work itself. A true prophecy tells what will be no matter what you do. If there was a possibility that a true prophecy not come true then it was just a likelihood - or better still - just a plan. Plans can go wrong. True prophecies just fulfill themselves.

The idea that Rhaegar ever had another goal but to produce this mysterious third dragon head (when we don't even know who the other dragon head besides Aegon was) is pretty far-fetched. And any insistence to make prophecy a great driving force in all actions relating to Lyanna cheapens the romance part of their story and takes away agency from Lyanna - who, if she was a willing participant in any of this, also would have been a very important player. But Lya really is the kind of person (as per her sober quotes about love) who would really mock and ridicule Rhaegar if he ever talked to her about prophecy.

I mean, seriously, just imagine I showed up one day at your door telling you how 'prophecy' demanded that you come with me and fuck me and become my second lawful wife. That is worse than the ultimate creep come-on line...

[Julia H.]

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

In the world of ASOIAF is the same, people don't  believe in dreams and prophecies and people are especially wary of dragon dreams for the stupidities those with those dreams do to fulfil them. Thanks god, Davos didn't partake in Stannis' madness.

And there are a more recent prophecy dream that marked Rhaegar's life,  his grand grand daddy, burned him and his loved ones by trying to fulfil a prophecy, that was the sensitive thing to do, right?? Because drinking wildfire believing you'll become a dragon, it's just one of those mistakes.

People don't believe in dreams and prophecies? Oh, come on.

If you are referring to Summerhall, was there the purpose really to fulfill a prophecy? I thought it was a magical experiment to bring back the dragons (real dragons) that went wrong. The science of that world... However, bringing the dragons back eventually happened, which proves that the original idea wasn't totally far-fetched. 

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

In normal circumstances, she may not. Within context?? Absolutely, Rhaegar desperately needed Elia's  political support and with Elia already having given birth to the heir of the crown, she didn't need Rhaegar all that much. 

Good for her then.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Can you recall having seen any wife with the attitude "my husband knows better" i really cannot and that may be an attitued expected but that's definetely not one women have in the books especially when it comes to their kids. There is no reason to assume Elia was a resigned wife who believe her hubby col¡uld do no wrong and didn't have ideas on her own, that's an attitude not even Seylse has. On top of my mind if i remember mothers, Cersei, Cat, Seylse, Alysanne, Naerys, Mariah Martell, Olenna, Sybell Westerling, Lysa, Mellario etc, none of them have said attitude, they are subdued to their hubbies and have to obeyed them even if they don't like because of the power imbalance, but that's not the same as agreeing with they say. It's incredibly unlikely that Elia, being raised in a place where women have a voice, would actually act like that.

Yes, the women who have their own will and agenda... They do not necessarily represent the vast majority of Westerosi women, but they are the ones to be characters in a story, precisely because they are strong and have the will and the agenda to act on their own. Elia, however, is described as frail, even as "unworthy" of Rhaegar, and she conspicuously lacks a story as anyone else but a helpless victim. But then again, we may still get a backstory that puts her in a different light. 

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

[...] Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution.  SSM The Baratheon Brothers

[...] From Dorne, in defense of Princess Elia, ten thousand spears came over the Boneway and marched
to King’s Landing to bolster the host that Rhaegar was raising. Those who were there at court during
this time have recounted that Aerys’s behavior was erratic. He was untrusting of any save his
Kingsguard—and then only imperfectly, for he kept Ser Jaime Lannister close at all hours to serve as
a hostage against his father.
When Prince Rhaegar at last marched up the kingsroad to the Trident, with him were all but one of
the Kingsguard who had remained in King’s Landing: Ser Barristan the Bold, Ser Jonothor Darry, and
Prince Lewyn of Dorne. Prince Lewyn took command of the Dornish troop sent by his nephew, the
Prince Doran, but it is said that he did so only after threats from the Mad King, who feared that the
Dornishmen looked to betray him. 

[...] “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad.

It's quite clear that none of the Dornish were ok with what father and son had pulled and were only there because of Elia, about the ToJ, I doubt that Rhaegar was telling everyone he was there.

I wonder what all those Dornishmen knew. Rhaegar cheated on Elia with Lyanna - that must have been common knowledge, but then Rhaegar emerged without Lyanna, and no one knew where she was, much less that she was going to be the mother of a dragonhead (or that she might be married to Rhaegar), which still doesn't seem to be common knowledge. Elia may have told more than that to her brothers, but would they spread the tale while Rhaegar hasn't turned up with his third dragon (or new wife) yet? Unlikely. If the Dornishmen (other than Elia's brothers) were angry with Rhaegar, it is not evidence that Elia had organized anything against Rhaegar. What they may have heard from various sources was probably enough to hurt their pride. Apparently, Doran (who was the one to learn the most from Elia herself) was less supportive of Rhaegar because of his "innate caution" rather than because he wanted to take revenge on Rhaegar. Aerys is another story, he made it blatantly clear that he considered Elia and her children hostages, and that's a very obvious threat. 

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

1) There are very few wars in universe that start with the idea of ending a dynasty, neither the Robellion, nor the Wot5k started with said idea, even when both left dynasties at the verge of extiction, but that's the thing about civil wars right?? Once they start and get momentum it's incredibly to predict the outcome and that's a very good reason to not start one. 

2) If they didn't expect war, they are more idiots than i thought, for one side we have the Martells who would be pretty pissed with the news, for the other we have Robert and the Starks both with of them ties to other Great and Highlords who would without doubt seek for retribution and last but not less you have the Mad King, the idea that it would not be war is incredibly disingenous.

1) I'm pretty sure there have been wars which started with the idea of ending a dynasty, but it is, as your whole paragraph, beside the point. 

2) In hindsight, it is easy to be wise. But when someone is about to start a war, they prepare for it first. 

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Cat never accepted Jon's presence in Winterfell and that's a poison all the Starks carry one way or the other, Cat did all she could to send Jon away and the only chance she got to do do it, she did nit flinch.

Yes, Cat accepted Jon's presence in Winterfell. She tried to convince Ned at first to send the child away, but when Ned refused her, she had to accept that Jon was staying. Accepting does not mean that she found it OK. She brought the issue up again when circumstances had considerably changed because Ned himself was leaving Winterfell and was going to lose immediate control over what would be going on there.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Compromise was necessary, on that i agree, but not with someone who directly endangered her kids. There is a huge difference in Elia agreeing to Rhaegar banged some nobody that Elia agreeing the Lyanna affair. Elia did not need to agree to that.

Indeed, she didn't need to. Rhaegar could do it all without her consent. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

There is a rather big gap between that and Lyanna Stark, a sea wide gap, And then again, if Elia does not want to have that child, she can always enjoy that sweet body and after get moontea while hubby is writing sad songs in the halls of dead kings. 

Well, you still haven't told me what those multitudes of choices were... As for moontea, I don't have the feeling that it's reliable enough to depend on it for dear life, especially regularly. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Did she?? IIRC she learnt that only blood can birth life and after that she acted on pure instinct.

"I thank you, Mirri Maz Duur," she said, "for the lessons you have taught me."

This is a wedding, too, she thought. Mirri Maz Duur had fallen silent. The godswife thought her a child, but children grow, and children learn.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

I do not enter of it's morally rong, which it def is, but if it's pure zealotry or not and it's pure zealotry.

???

2 hours ago, frenin said:

 

1.  It's magic a reaility to reckon with?? It is, it's magic a reality people can understand, alter or fulfil?? It's not. That's pure zeal,.
2. Tywin has goals and pride and goes to extremes lenghts to satisfy both, that's not zealotry.
3. Stannis is driven by the Throne but he's also driven by the idea of his importance in the grand scheme of things ad that makes him as zealot as Meli.

1. There are clear examples in the story where people understand and use magic.

2. Tywin zelously pursues what he regards as the Lannister pride / interests. For this goal, nothing is too dear to him. That's zealotry.

3. Yes, Stannis is a zealot, but it is not because of his belief in anything supernatural.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

If Rhaegar acted on prophecy, he was.  I do think that acting on it was stupid, whether it was wrong or not we shall see,  the outcome was the consequences of his actions were clear as day and he had already tasted how people would act to his actions in Harrenhall, could he fuck Elia to death?? He perfectly could, but Elia was Princess of Dorne in a moment he needed Dorne and Elia had the means and opportunity to abort. 

And it would also have been a remarkably cruel action, but no one seems to remember Rhaegar as a cruel person. 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Rhaegar ever had another goal but to produce this mysterious third dragon head (when we don't even know who the other dragon head besides Aegon was) is pretty far-fetched. And any insistence to make prophecy a great driving force in all actions relating to Lyanna cheapens the romance part of their story and takes away agency from Lyanna - who, if she was a willing participant in any of this, also would have been a very important player. But Lya really is the kind of person (as per her sober quotes about love) who would really mock and ridicule Rhaegar if he ever talked to her about prophecy.

I mean, seriously, just imagine I showed up one day at your door telling you how 'prophecy' demanded that you come with me and fuck me and become my second lawful wife. That is worse than the ultimate creep come-on line...

So Rhaegar becomes so infatuated with a young girl that he scarcely knows, that he risks open warfare with the realm all during a time period where he believes the War for the Dawn was looming, a war which he believed his son with Elia was destined to fight?

It doesn't take too much imagination to start putting the pieces together.  The Prince that was Promised was destined to fight in the War for the Dawn, against the mysterious Others from the North.  Rhaegar's attention becomes focused on a young northern Stark girl, who may have adopted the sigil of a laughing Weirwood at a tourney where it just so happens that the Night's Watch has been invited to bolster their ranks.  

Winter suddenly returns to Westeros after a false spring, when Rhaegar and six of his closest companions take to the road.  

Now of course, if Rhaegar was chasing prophecy, and if Rhaegar believed that a child of Lyanna was a necessary component of the role he believed his son was to play in the events, it doesn't necessarily follow that Rhaegar believed he had to be the father of this child...

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

So Rhaegar becomes so infatuated with a young girl that he scarcely knows, that he risks open warfare with the realm all during a time period where he believes the War for the Dawn was looming, a war which he believed his son with Elia was destined to fight?

Where is it stated that Rhaegar Targaryen ever believed in something like 'a War for the Dawn'?

Quote

It doesn't take too much imagination to start putting the pieces together.  The Prince that was Promised was destined to fight in the War for the Dawn, against the mysterious Others from the North.

That's not stated in any prophecy we know, and not in any contemporary interpretation of the prophecy nor can it be derived from the way the Targaryens acted during the reign of Aerys II and before.

Quote

Rhaegar's attention becomes focused on a young northern Stark girl, who may have adopted the sigil of a laughing Weirwood at a tourney where it just so happens that the Night's Watch has been invited to bolster their ranks.

If Rhaegar cared about the Watch he could have taken the black himself, don't you think...?

Quote

Now of course, if Rhaegar was chasing prophecy, and if Rhaegar believed that a child of Lyanna was a necessary component of the role he believed his son was to play in the events, it doesn't necessarily follow that Rhaegar believed he had to be the father of this child...

At this point nothing indicates that Lyanna was a necessary component to anything. If the prophecy hinted at stuff like that Rhaegar Targaryen would have married Lyanna Stark rather than Elia Martell. If the Ghost of High Heart had any clue that a Stark was necessary for the thing she would have told that Jaehaerys II when she said to him he should marry his children to each other if he wanted to eventually produce the promised prince.

What we do know indicates Rhaegar may have deluded himself into believing he had to produce another dragon head - but nowhere do he or other characters imply that prophecy aimed for a specific union for such a child. In fact, prophecy-wise there is no need to believe that Rhaegar even would have thought that said third dragon head needed to be a legitimate child. The prince that was promised is believed to be a prince, i.e. a legitimate child, but nothing of that sort is expected for the other dragon heads.

[frenin]

15 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

People don't believe in dreams and prophecies? Oh, come on.

If you are referring to Summerhall, was there the purpose really to fulfill a prophecy? I thought it was a magical experiment to bring back the dragons (real dragons) that went wrong. The science of that world... However, bringing the dragons back eventually happened, which proves that the original idea wasn't totally far-fetched. 

When i say people i'm talking about the a majority and no, the majority of people don't believe in dreams and prophecies and even someone who has studied them carefully as Marwyn i understand that they are untrustworthy.

 

I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one.

 

Egg dreamt about dragons and as others acted trying to fulfil said dream and we know how it went... As i said whether it works or not, it's pure zeal.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Yes, the women who have their own will and agenda... They do not necessarily represent the vast majority of Westerosi women, but they are the ones to be characters in a story, precisely because they are strong and have the will and the agenda to act on their own. Elia, however, is described as frail, even as "unworthy" of Rhaegar, and she conspicuously lacks a story as anyone else but a helpless victim. But then again, we may still get a backstory that puts her in a different light. 

We don't know other women, we can't make a guess based on our bias, we know that they are subdued but they all have their own will and agenda, even someone who perfectly fits in the  highborn girl idea as Sansa has will and agenda. What makes you assume the others don't??

I don't really understand what the health has to do with this, Naerys was as sickly as you can get and she still spoke her mind when married to a near absolutist tyrant, and ofc Rhaegar's nº2 fangirl (Dany will always be on top) consider Elia unworthy, what that has to do with her brains.

And ofc she's the helpless victim, Rhaegar and Aerys forced her to that role, how could she escape that?? 

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

I wonder what all those Dornishmen knew. Rhaegar cheated on Elia with Lyanna - that must have been common knowledge, but then Rhaegar emerged without Lyanna, and no one knew where she was, much less that she was going to be the mother of a dragonhead (or that she might be married to Rhaegar), which still doesn't seem to be common knowledge. Elia may have told more than that to her brothers, but would they spread the tale while Rhaegar hasn't turned up with his third dragon (or new wife) yet? Unlikely. If the Dornishmen (other than Elia's brothers) were angry with Rhaegar, it is not evidence that Elia had organized anything against Rhaegar. What they may have heard from various sources was probably enough to hurt their pride. Apparently, Doran (who was the one to learn the most from Elia herself) was less supportive of Rhaegar because of his "innate caution" rather than because he wanted to take revenge on Rhaegar. Aerys is another story, he made it blatantly clear that he considered Elia and her children hostages, and that's a very obvious threat. 

I didn't say that Elia treated to do something against Rhaegar at that stage when the Robellion hag gotten very  dangerous, u'm saying that none of the Dornish, and that includes her brothers, were very happy with Rhaegar.

It's doubtful than Rhaegar told anyone but his inner circle about the prophecy and how he  would act regarding it.

No, Doran was angry with Rhaegar, that's clear, we're given two reasons why he did not support him as strongly as he might have and one of them is "anger at his treatment of Elia". Why do you think Aerys had to threat Elia??  Why do you think Lewyn needed to be reminded all that?? Why do you think we don't hear any complains on Rhaegar's part?? What did he call Jaime?? A crutch wasn't it??

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

1) I'm pretty sure there have been wars which started with the idea of ending a dynasty, but it is, as your whole paragraph, beside the point. 

2) In hindsight, it is easy to be wise. But when someone is about to start a war, they prepare for it first. 

1) Possible but they are not many in Westeros, not even the Dance started with that intent.

2) I don't think it has nothing to do with hindsight, if you kidnappmy sister, prepare for trouble as simple as that, that Rhaegar or Lyanna, if she wasn't kidnapped, did not think about all those very powerful people who loved Lyanna enough to go for war over her and drag the continent with them, it's entirely on him.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

 Yes, Cat accepted Jon's presence in Winterfell. She tried to convince Ned at first to send the child away, but when Ned refused her, she had to accept that Jon was staying. Accepting does not mean that she found it OK. She brought the issue up again when circumstances had considerably changed because Ned himself was leaving Winterfell and was going to lose immediate control over what would be going on there.

No, she didn't.  She never agreed with the situation  and did her best to change it, accepting does not mean, unable to change something, which is exactly what Cat was.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Indeed, she didn't need to. Rhaegar could do it all without her consent. 

Which is what i think he did. If Elia was  a prophecy... believer,  she would be ok with whatever Rhaegar did, if not, why bother?? Better deal with the eventual situation after his goal was achieved, he could always deal with Elia after the Lyanna  thing was a fait accompli.

 

 

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Well, you still haven't told me what those multitudes of choices were... As for moontea, I don't have the feeling that it's reliable enough to depend on it for dear life, especially regularly. 

Well start banging from flea bottom to Baelish and if that it's not enough from Baelish to Stokeworth, you know people whose threat you might be able to manage.  Moontea seems foolprof in universe as far as we know.

 

 

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

"I thank you, Mirri Maz Duur," she said, "for the lessons you have taught me."

This is a wedding, too, she thought. Mirri Maz Duur had fallen silent. The godswife thought her a child, but children grow, and children learn.

Oh, then my bad, Dany was only half zealot.

 

 

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

???

Whether it's morally wrong or not it's not the point. The point is killing a kid because you believe his sacrifice can awake stone dragons is pure zealotry.

 

 

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

1. There are clear examples in the story where people understand and use magic.

2. Tywin zelously pursues what he regards as the Lannister pride / interests. For this goal, nothing is too dear to him. That's zealotry.

3. Yes, Stannis is a zealot, but it is not because of his belief in anything supernatural.

1. There are more examples in the story where people don't understand and misuse magic.

2.  No, Tywin pursues what it's best for his family, that's not zealotry.

3. Isn't it?? Well, if not he would've never agreed to half the things that come from Meli's mouth.

 

 

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

And it would also have been a remarkably cruel action, but no one seems to remember Rhaegar as a cruel person. 

He didn't so that's over the top. And how those who loved Rhaegar and the one speaking to Rhaegar nº1 fangirl is not the point either.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

The thing is it's all speculation. We can say almost nothing for certain when it comes to Rhaegars motivations or Elia's feelings on the matter. 

We can say that we know how a set aside & cheated on woman may feel under normal circumstances but we also know these likely weren't a normal set of circumstances. Does that mean Elia was all for it? No, but without knowing the details we can't say she wasn't. It's a possibility. It's also possible Elia was all against it. Maybe she didn't like it but agreed out of necessity or for the greater good. 

Same with Rhaegar. He may have been a cheating, lying, half crazed, idiot (although we don't get that inclination from what we are told about him) we know he mistakenly believed himself & then his son to be tptwp (but if fAegon is real Aegon maybe he wasn't mistaken?) But without knowing what led him to this belief, how can we say, in good faith, that we know he was dumb for being mistaken? 

 

[Frey family reunion]

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Where is it stated that Rhaegar Targaryen ever believed in something like 'a War for the Dawn'?

It’s clear that Aemon and Rhaegar shared their belief over the prince that was promised prophecy:

Quote

“It was a prince that was promised, not a princess.  Rhaegar, I thought ... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died.  He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.

The language of the bleeding star and prince that was promised was all language that Melisandre used as part of a prophecized battle concerning the Long Night:

Quote

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.”

While still on Dragonstone, Melisandre specifically relates this prophecy with the prince that was promised:

Quote

“It means the battle is begun,” said Melisandre.  “The sand is running through the glass more quickly now, and man’s hour on earth is almost done.  We must act boldly, or all hope is lost.  Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was  promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R’hllor.”

But Melisandre is not the only one who equates the prince that was promised with the Battle for the Dawn, Aemon does as well:

Quote

But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, “It is the war for the Dawn you speak of, my lady.  But where is the prince that was promised?”

It’s a safe bet that if Aemon equates the prince that was promised with the war for the dawn, than Rhaegar probably did as well.  Which makes sense when Rhaegar equates the prince that was promised with being a part of the song of ice and fire.

Quote

“He has a song,” the man replied.  “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.”

 

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Rhaegar cared about the Watch he could have taken the black himself, don't you think...?

Clearly Rhaegar believed that his role in the stated prophecies was far more important than serving as a foot soldier.  And if he joined the black, it would have precluded him from making the preparations that he and his six trusted companions rode out to accomplish.

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

At this point nothing indicates that Lyanna was a necessary component to anything. If the prophecy hinted at stuff like that Rhaegar Targaryen would have married Lyanna Stark rather than Elia Martell. If the Ghost of High Heart had any clue that a Stark was necessary for the thing she would have told that Jaehaerys II when she said to him he should marry his children to each other if he wanted to eventually produce the promised prince.

Once again we can surmise.  Rhaegar tells his wife, Elia, that their son is the prince that was promised (someone at least Aemon believed was necessary to fight the war for the dawn).  Shortly thereafter Rhaegar and company ride out on a journey that ultimately takes them to Lyanna and the Riverlands.  It’s an extremely bold and reckless mood for Rhaegar to make.  So either Rhaegar acts extremely out of character (Rhaegar who had previously been liked to Baelor the Blessed) or Rhaegar believed that it was a bold move born out of necessity.  He believed that there were stake that were so high that it justified the risk of inciting a war.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

What we do know indicates Rhaegar may have deluded himself into believing he had to produce another dragon head - but nobody anywhere do he or other characters imply that prophecy aimed for a specific union for such a child. In fact, prophecy-wise there is no need to believe that Rhaegar even would have thought that said third dragon head needed to be a legitimate child. The prince that was promised is believed to be a prince, i.e. a legitimate child, but nothing of that sort is expected for the other dragon heads.

How do we know that it was a delusion?  After all the Targaryens had a history of acting on prophecy, which ended up working out for them.

 I’m not arguing that either of the three heads of the dragon (other than the prince that was promised) had to be legitimate, had to be Rhaegar’s, or even had to be a Targaryen.  I’m not even convinced that Rhaegar believed any future child of Lyanna had was slated to be one of the heads of the dragon.  Unless we know what Rhaegar truly meant by the song of ice and fire, it’s next to impossible to tell just how many people (or children) Rhaegar believed was necessary to fulfill the prophecy.  

The most disturbing notion that I can think of is that Rhaegar’s obsession with Summerhall led him to believe that he needed to try again, this dream of dragons.  And perhaps Melisandre is not the only one to believe in the power of kingsblood.  Whether that kingsblood was of the Targaryen variety or the First Man variety.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But Lya really is the kind of person (as per her sober quotes about love) who would really mock and ridicule Rhaegar if he ever talked to her about prophecy.

Well her quote isn’t attributed to a belief about magic, it goes into her skepticism about Robert’s fidelity.  I think her mockery of Rhaegar wouldn’t be about his belief in prophecy, but if he tried to profess his true love to her a few months (at most) after he left his wife’s bedside while she still cared for their newly born child.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s clear that Aemon and Rhaegar shared their belief over the prince that was promised prophecy:

The language of the bleeding star and prince that was promised was all language that Melisandre used as part of a prophecized battle concerning the Long Night:

While still on Dragonstone, Melisandre specifically relates this prophecy with the prince that was promised:

But Melisandre is not the only one who equates the prince that was promised with the Battle for the Dawn, Aemon does as well:

It’s a safe bet that if Aemon equates the prince that was promised with the war for the dawn, than Rhaegar probably did as well.  Which makes sense when Rhaegar equates the prince that was promised with being a part of the song of ice and fire.

Yeah, you are right there. The way Aemon phrased can imply that Rhaegar also knew about a War for the Dawn - however, we have to keep in mind Aemon spoke those words after it became clear that the Others are real and a threat. Something I don't think he believed back in the day when he took the black or even while he talked prophecy with Rhaegar.

If the Targaryens had believed in the Others and had thought their promised prince would fight them in their Song of Ice and Fire or their War for the Dawn or whatever it is the prophecy actually states the promised prince is going to do (assuming it says anything about that at all) then their actual policies from Aegon V and Bloodraven down to Aerys II and Rhaegar make absolutely no sense.

Hence the idea that there is no way the Targaryens ever saw the Others as the antagonists of the promised prince. Just as Melisandre only (sort of) makes that connection after Davos shows Aemon's letter to her and Stannis. But she continues to believe that the real struggle there is a metaphysical one, with the Others merely being pawns of the Great Other or her faith.

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Clearly Rhaegar believed that his role in the stated prophecies was far more important than serving as a foot soldier.  And if he joined the black, it would have precluded him from making the preparations that he and his six trusted companions rode out to accomplish.

Well, I meant back in the days of his youth when Rhaegar deluded himself into believing he himself was the promised prince. Then there was nothing to prepare, right? And the Prince of Dragonstone would have very quickly been chosen Lord Commander, meaning Rhaegar as promised prince would have been at the very spot to throw back the Others and wage the War for the Dawn if that's what he thought this person would do.

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Once again we can surmise.  Rhaegar tells his wife, Elia, that their son is the prince that was promised (someone at least Aemon believed was necessary to fight the war for the dawn).  Shortly thereafter Rhaegar and company ride out on a journey that ultimately takes them to Lyanna and the Riverlands.  It’s an extremely bold and reckless mood for Rhaegar to make.  So either Rhaegar acts extremely out of character (Rhaegar who had previously been liked to Baelor the Blessed) or Rhaegar believed that it was a bold move born out of necessity.  He believed that there were stake that were so high that it justified the risk of inciting a war.

The part about the dragon heads is in no part of the prophecy we ever heard, and it is especially not a part of the Essosi versions of the prophecy as neither Benerro nor Melisandre seem to believe in multiple savior figures.

We don't know what Rhaegar did during his journey, but the reason why he took Lyanna and no one else seems pretty clear - because he wanted her, and no other. Prophecy has nothing to do with Rhaegar's feelings as expressed at Harrenhal with the crowning thing (assuming this meant something). Back then Rhaegar's wife Elia was still pregnant and fertile enough, meaning Rhaegar wouldn't have needed a woman that wasn't Elia to make more babies.

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

How do we know that it was a delusion?  After all the Targaryens had a history of acting on prophecy, which ended up working out for them.

They did not act on prophecy the way I criticize here. Sure, Aenar moved from Valyria to Dragonstone after his daughter had had some dreams about Valyria being destroyed. That's like not going to/remaining at a place you have (some) reason to believe is going to be destroyed. In a sense that is acting on information gained from a prophetic dream. But it is not the kind that causes trouble - that's the Rhaegar/Melisandre/Daemon II way (trying to fulfill prophecy yourself by basing your actions on 'information' you think you 'accurately' draw from prophecy or basing your political decision on prophecy) or the Cersei way (trying to prevent a prophecy from coming true by interfering with people/events you think you have accurately identified by interpreting prophecy).

Anybody messing with a prophecy in ASoIaF has seen his efforts backfiring on him. And the same thing clearly happened with Rhaegar.

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 I’m not arguing that either of the three heads of the dragon (other than the prince that was promised) had to be legitimate, had to be Rhaegar’s, or even had to be a Targaryen.  I’m not even convinced that Rhaegar believed any future child of Lyanna had was slated to be one of the heads of the dragon.  Unless we know what Rhaegar truly meant by the song of ice and fire, it’s next to impossible to tell just how many people (or children) Rhaegar believed was necessary to fulfill the prophecy.

The prophecy, if true, would fulfill itself.

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The most disturbing notion that I can think of is that Rhaegar’s obsession with Summerhall led him to believe that he needed to try again, this dream of dragons.  And perhaps Melisandre is not the only one to believe in the power of kingsblood.  Whether that kingsblood was of the Targaryen variety or the First Man variety.

While we have no idea what took place at Summerhall exactly (aside from that it most likely didn't involve any blood sacrifice stuff) it makes little sense to speculate about that. Even more so since Rhaegar never seemed to have had any dragon eggs, so he likely didn't have any vivid dreams about dragons.

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well her quote isn’t attributed to a belief about magic, it goes into her skepticism about Robert’s fidelity.  I think her mockery of Rhaegar wouldn’t be about his belief in prophecy, but if he tried to profess his true love to her a few months (at most) after he left his wife’s bedside while she still cared for their newly born child.

Oh, well, I think if there is a romance it would have had as much to do with Lya herself as with Rhaegar. The idea that he had to seduce her doesn't sit well with me. But the idea that Lya of all people would have given shit about prophecy doesn't convince me at all. I don't think any noblewoman would have fallen for shit like that, especially after the history of House Targaryens is actually in large parts a history of delusional morons thinking they correctly understood prophecies about dragons and stuff.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

On 1/19/2020 at 7:12 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

What did Elia think of the hole Rhaegar-Lyanna story. My personal theory is that she was okay with it seeing as A she was dornish after all and B she knew Rhaegar wanted/needed another child an she was left barren by Aegon's birth.

I don't see why she would okay with with it. Lyanna and any children she had with Rhaegar were a threat to Elia and her kids position. Especially if Rhaegar and Lyanna got/planned on getting married. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

26 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

I don't see why she would okay with with it. Lyanna and any children she had with Rhaegar were a threat to Elia and her kids position. Especially if Rhaegar and Lyanna got/planned on getting married. 

One potential reason why she may be okay with it is if she knows that it's crucial to save the realm. 

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

56 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

One potential reason why she may be okay with it is if she knows that it's crucial to save the realm. 

Why would Elia think that? Because Rhaegar told her? The same man that passed her over at Harrenhal for Lyanna, before Rhaegar knew she couldn't have children anymore.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Why would Elia think that? Because Rhaegar told her? The same man that passed her over at Harrenhal for Lyanna, before Rhaegar knew she couldn't have children anymore.

Well, we don't have enough information to say for certain, but sure, one reason could be because Rhaegar told her that. Or maybe someone else told her, or maybe she learned it, maybe Rhaegar showed her, maybe she told Rhaegar. 

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, we don't have enough information to say for certain, but sure, one reason could be because Rhaegar told her that. Or maybe someone else told her, or maybe she learned it, maybe Rhaegar showed her, maybe she told Rhaegar. 

Even if Rhaegar tried to tell Elia mad shit like that (I'll try that on my girlfriend later on, perhaps she is going to encourage me then to fuck as many other women as I can...) we have no reason to believe she would buy something like that.

Most notably because, as I already said, we have no idea whether Elia even loved or liked Rhaegar. He was fond of her, but did she love or like him? Was she happy marrying him? Was she happy with their marriage?

We have no idea. If she didn't like Rhaegar much, if she was unhappy with their marriage, or if she loved him very much and was a very jealous person then the chances that she didn't like the idea of him having other women (be it as mistresses or wives).

And as I said - even if she were some kind of noble saint being okay with her husband having other wives (which is ridiculous) then she couldn't ever publicly admit that, because being treated like that was a slap in her face, the face of House Martell, and all Dorne. Elia Martell wasn't just any other noblewoman, she was the sister of the Prince of Dorne.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if Rhaegar tried to tell Elia mad shit like that (I'll try that on my girlfriend later on, perhaps she is going to encourage me then to fuck as many other women as I can...) we have no reason to believe she would buy something like that.

Well, no, we don't have any reason to believe she would buy it but that doesn't mean there isn't a reason or that she didn't buy it. I'm not claiming Elia was all for this, I'm saying we don't have enough information to say she wasn't. We just don't know.

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Most notably because, as I already said, we have no idea whether Elia even loved or liked Rhaegar. He was fond of her, but did she love or like him? Was she happy marrying him? Was she happy with their marriage?

No we don't but it could go either way right? For instance, if she loved him & was happy with their marriage she likely trusted him as well, which could be a reason why she allowed this. If she hated him or could careless about him, that could be a reason why she didn't care what he was doing. Or on the other side her loving him could mean his exploits with Lyanna hurt her very deeply & she was very not ok with it, or her hating him could be her motive for not being ok with what he did. 

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We have no idea. If she didn't like Rhaegar much, if she was unhappy with their marriage, or if she loved him very much and was a very jealous person then the chances that she didn't like the idea of him having other women (be it as mistresses or wives).

Absolutely, we have no idea. She may not have been ok with it at all. One can certainly see why she wouldn't be but I don't think we can discount the fact that there may be reasons she would be as well. 

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And as I said - even if she were some kind of noble saint being okay with her husband having other wives (which is ridiculous) then she couldn't ever publicly admit that, because being treated like that was a slap in her face, the face of House Martell, and all Dorne. Elia Martell wasn't just any other noblewoman, she was the sister of the Prince of Dorne.

I'm not suggesting she admitted it publicly. I think it highly unlikely she did or would have. Neither do I think it likely she was some saint all good with her husband having other wives. I'm only saying it's possible she knew about it & allowed it (whether she particularly liked it or not) because she believed it was crucial for the greater good. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, no, we don't have any reason to believe she would buy it but that doesn't mean there isn't a reason or that she didn't buy it. I'm not claiming Elia was all for this, I'm saying we don't have enough information to say she wasn't. We just don't know.

The point being, though, is that the default assumption then should be that she would react like most if not all noblewomen in Westeros in her position would react - not liking/opposing this idea. Considering that Rhaegar could convince Elia to like this idea is essentially giving Rhaegar a very special treatment, making him a guy who was so great he could even convince his wife that it was great for him to have two wives.

I mean, would you think Lysa, Catelyn, Cersei, Cassana, Rhaella, Olenna, Alerie, Joanna, etc. would consider it a great idea for their husbands to take other wives, no matter what their justification/explanation for this was? I don't think so.

And, frankly, the way the time line is at this point it sounds very unlikely he even had a chance to explain anything to her. When Rhaegar left Dragonstone for his journey - which only led him at the end to the Riverlands and Lyanna - he may have not yet known where he would go when he left nor what he would do at the end. And in Dany's vision Rhaegar muses abstractly about another [dragon head], he doesn't talk to his wife that he has to father such a child and that its mother will be Lyanna Stark who is going to marry.

If this was a spontaneous idea that grew out of his journey he wouldn't have told Elia anything, and she would have been just as surprised as everybody else. And that's where things point to, because any person as rational as telling his wife before he went through with his actions would likely also have informed his royal father and, perhaps, other people as well so that the fallout afterwards wouldn't be as severe as it was. But he clearly didn't do that.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The point being, though, is that the default assumption then should be that she would react like most if not all noblewomen in Westeros in her position would react - not liking/opposing this idea.

No, it's not the default assumption. We can assume that Elia would have reacted similarly to anyone else in this situation. However, we cannot exclude the fact that this was likely not a normal situation. 

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that Rhaegar could convince Elia to like this idea is essentially giving Rhaegar a very special treatment, making him a guy who was so great he could even convince his wife that it was great for him to have two wives.

I'm not saying Rhaegar could convince her (although depending on the information he had, he may have) I don't know that Rhaegar convinced her at all. He may have tried & failed. He may not have tried at all. She may have gotten just as involved with prophecy as him & SHE found whatever it was that convinced him this was necessary. Maybe she convinced him. 

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, would you think Lysa, Catelyn, Cersei, Cassana, Rhaella, Olenna, Alerie, Joanna, etc. would consider it a great idea for their husbands to take other wives, no matter what their justification/explanation for this was? I don't think so.

I don't think we can say "no matter what their justification/explanation for this was" I think there are justifications or explanations that would convince some of these women to go along with this. 

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And, frankly, the way the time line is at this point it sounds very unlikely he even had a chance to explain anything to her. When Rhaegar left Dragonstone for his journey - which only led him at the end to the Riverlands and Lyanna - he may have not yet known where he would go when he left nor what he would do at the end. And in Dany's vision Rhaegar muses abstractly about another [dragon head], he doesn't talk to his wife that he has to father such a child and that its mother will be Lyanna Stark who is going to marry.

That's quite possible. Or he knew about this for a long time & explained it to her way before he did anything. I'm 100% positive we don't have that entire scene so we don't know what he did or didn't say to Elia in regards to Lyanna, in that scene or otherwise. If he did mention Lyanna in that scene George would have left it out for obvious reasons. 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If this was a spontaneous idea that grew out of his journey he wouldn't have told Elia anything, and she would have been just as surprised as everybody else.

Sure, IF it was a spontaneous idea that grew out of his journey. But we don't know that it was. 

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And that's where things point to, because any person as rational as telling his wife before he went through with his actions would likely also have informed his royal father and, perhaps, other people as well so that the fallout afterwards wouldn't be as severe as it was. But he clearly didn't do that.

He may or may not have informed other people. I don't think we can say for certain he didn't tell anyone. He could have told Aerys, Ned might know. Clearly Brandon didn't. Maybe Rickard did & went to KL to explain things. Or he told no one because he knew they wouldn't believe him, or knew they would try to stop him. There just are other possibilities than simply Elia was pissed or not in agreement with it.