Where did Elia fit in the Lyanna-Rhaegar relationship?

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No, it's not the default assumption. We can assume that Elia would have reacted similarly to anyone else in this situation. However, we cannot exclude the fact that this was likely not a normal situation. 

We have no indication that this was not a standard 'my husband wants to have another woman/wife' situation for Elia - something that is always going to cause a scandal if as highborn a woman as a Princess of Dorne is the humiliated party in the scandal.

And again - we cannot even say that Elia Martell gave a damn about Rhaegar Targaryen. Theirs was an arranged marriage, and we know nothing about her feelings towards him. The idea that the wife in an arranged marriage actually feels love for the husband is already a considerable stretch.

People project modern marriage concepts on those characters.

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not saying Rhaegar could convince her (although depending on the information he had, he may have) I don't know that Rhaegar convinced her at all. He may have tried & failed. He may not have tried at all. She may have gotten just as involved with prophecy as him & SHE found whatever it was that convinced him this was necessary. Maybe she convinced him.

While we don't know Elia even know about prophecy stuff or cared about it this is beyond the level or reasonable argument. All we can say at this point is we don't know.

I get it that people would like it that Elia know and liked prophecy stuff and was fine with Lyanna, etc. but to actually discuss such possibility we would need text hinting at that this might be the case. And there is nothing of that sort.

Instead there are hints that her family hated what Rhaegar did, causing massive problems between the Targaryens and the Martells, problems Elia may have actually fueled in letters she wrote to her brother.

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think we can say "no matter what their justification/explanation for this was" I think there are justifications or explanations that would convince some of these women to go along with this.

Not in the noble framework of Westeros that is presented to us. There is no precedent for a woman accepting her husband take another wife who wasn't forced by sheer might to do this (and even then said women plotted to destroy each other rather than share their husband peacefully).

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That's quite possible. Or he knew about this for a long time & explained it to her way before he did anything. I'm 100% positive we don't have that entire scene so we don't know what he did or didn't say to Elia in regards to Lyanna, in that scene or otherwise. If he did mention Lyanna in that scene George would have left it out for obvious reasons. 

You don't seem to know the background. Rhaegar couldn't have been convinced of anything before Aegon's birth - which both 'confirmed' he was the promised prince because he turned out to be male rather than female (which Rhaegar could know after the birth, of course) as well as nearly killed Elia and made another pregnancy impossible (something Rhaegar also only learned after the birth).

If Aegon had been a girl (or a miscarriage or a stillbirth) and if Elia had been still capable of having children after Aegon's birth Rhaegar wouldn't have had any need to have a child with another woman.

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, IF it was a spontaneous idea that grew out of his journey. But we don't know that it was.

Well, if it wasn't a spontaneous decision then it is rather odd that he didn't go directly to Harrenhal/wherever Elia was but rather some other place before he went back to the Riverlands.

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He may or may not have informed other people. I don't think we can say for certain he didn't tell anyone. He could have told Aerys, Ned might know. Clearly Brandon didn't. Maybe Rickard did & went to KL to explain things. Or he told no one because he knew they wouldn't believe him, or knew they would try to stop him. There just are other possibilities than simply Elia was pissed or not in agreement with it. 

If he had thought about it some more and if he had informed more people then things wouldn't have gone as bad as they did. Especially not if people had actually bought the mad prophecy ramblings he would have been trying to feed them - if the Martells had bought that shit, there wouldn't have been been any problems with Doran (because Doran would have thought it a great idea that Rhaegar wanted to fulfill a prophecy to save the world), the Starks (because they would have found it great that Rhaegar wanted to save the world, too - not to mention making their sister a future queen - which especially Lord Rickard should have liked), even Robert may have gotten around to accepting the thing.

Most notably, by going through the Starks Rhaegar could have found a way to dissolve the betrothal between Robert and Lyanna, making himself less of a lecherous rapist thinking with his cock in the process of all of that. The crucial thing in all of that would have been to get the Starks on his side and isolate Robert Baratheon - or make him angry with Rickard and the Starks for dissolving the betrothal rather than giving him a pretext to turn his anger against his Targaryen cousins.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have no indication that this was not a standard 'my husband wants to have another woman/wife' situation for Elia - something that is always going to cause a scandal if as highborn a woman as a Princess of Dorne is the humiliated party in the scandal

Yeah, we don't have anything saying it wouldn't cause a scandal & in fact it did cause a scandal. I'm not saying that it wouldn't, it clearly did. 

But we also have reason to believe this may have been an odd circumstance in which Elia could have agreed for the greater good. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And again - we cannot even say that Elia Martell gave a damn about Rhaegar Targaryen. Theirs was an arranged marriage, and we know nothing about her feelings towards him. The idea that the wife in an arranged marriage actually feels love for the husband is already a considerable stretch

It's not an incredible stretch but I'm not arguing she did or didn't love him anyway. We have instances of arranged marriages where the parties seem to love each other, so it's possible. 

It doesn't make any difference is the thing. Whether she did or didn't love him doesn't dictate how she felt about all of this. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

People project modern marriage concepts on those characters

Maybe but I didn't project anything. I said maybe she loved him, maybe she hated him, maybe she was indifferent toward him. Those aren't modern concepts they are just the possibilities of how Elia may have felt about Rhaegar. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

While we don't know Elia even know about prophecy stuff or cared about it this is beyond the level or reasonable argument. All we can say at this point is we don't know

Right, which is what I said. Because we don't know, it's full of possibilities. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

get it that people would like it that Elia know and liked prophecy stuff and was fine with Lyanna, etc. but to actually discuss such possibility we would need text hinting at that this might be the case. And there is nothing of that sort

I don't know what people want & I would agree with you in regards to the text if we had the whole story. Since we don't it's reasonable to discuss Elia potentially agreeing to this. We don't have any text hinting to the fact that it isn't the case either. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Instead there are hints that her family hated what Rhaegar did, causing massive problems between the Targaryens and the Martells, problems Elia may have actually fueled in letters she wrote to her brother

Yes, we know her family was angry but we know nothing about how she, herself felt & letters from Elia are just as much speculation as Elia agreeing with what he did. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not in the noble framework of Westeros that is presented to us. There is no precedent for a woman accepting her husband take another wife who wasn't forced by sheer might to do this (and even then said women plotted to destroy each other rather than share their husband peacefully

True, there is no precedence for what you suggest but your suggestion isn't the only possibility. He may or may not have taken another wife - either because he didn't marry Lyanna or because he divorced Elia. She may or may not have accepted it peacefully. There being no precedence doesn't negate any possibilities. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You don't seem to know the background. Rhaegar couldn't have been convinced of anything before Aegon's birth - which both 'confirmed' he was the promised prince because he turned out to be male rather than female (which Rhaegar could know after the birth, of course) as well as nearly killed Elia and made another pregnancy impossible (something Rhaegar also only learned after the birth)

Sure, but if he discussed things with Elia, and we have a small indication he did, I think it unlikely he would have waited until Aegon's birth to do it, nor do I think he would have only discussed the portions he had "confirmed". He may have been convinced it was "confirmed" prior to Aegon even being born. They would likely have discussed the dragon needing three heads also. So while Lyanna specifically may have not been discussed until later or at all the framework would have been laid previously. 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If Aegon had been a girl (or a miscarriage or a stillbirth) and if Elia had been still capable of having children after Aegon's birth Rhaegar wouldn't have had any need to have a child with another woman

Maybe or maybe the last dragon head always had to be of Ice. 

While all of the details may have had to be ironed out as they went doesn't mean Elia wasn't just as convinced as Rhaegar that this prophecy needed to be fulfilled at all costs. 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, if it wasn't a spontaneous decision then it is rather odd that he didn't go directly to Harrenhal/wherever Elia was but rather some other place before he went back to the Riverlands

Without knowing why he went where & what his motivations were I don't think we can say it's odd. 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If he had thought about it some more and if he had informed more people then things wouldn't have gone as bad as they did. Especially not if people had actually bought the mad prophecy ramblings he would have been trying to feed them - if the Martells had bought that shit, there wouldn't have been been any problems with Doran (because Doran would have thought it a great idea that Rhaegar wanted to fulfill a prophecy to save the world), the Starks (because they would have found it great that Rhaegar wanted to save the world, too - not to mention making their sister a future queen - which especially Lord Rickard should have liked), even Robert may have gotten around to accepting the thing.

I'm not suggesting he informed all parties but he may have told some people. They may not have believed him or they may have not liked it regardless. Lyanna being Queen doesn't really play into it because we don't know that he married her. If he told Lord Rickard & if he married Lyanna, Rickard likely would have been good with it but how do we know that isn't exactly the case? 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Most notably, by going through the Starks Rhaegar could have found a way to dissolve the betrothal between Robert and Lyanna, making himself less of a lecherous rapist thinking with his cock in the process of all of that. The crucial thing in all of that would have been to get the Starks on his side and isolate Robert Baratheon - or make him angry with Rickard and the Starks for dissolving the betrothal rather than giving him a pretext to turn his anger against his Targaryen cousins

This may have happened. Brandon may have been the only Stark under the impression that his sister was kidnapped & raped & didn't get to hear the truth until he was dying, or didn't get to hear it at all. Rhaegar, Elia, & Lyanna died so it would have been pointless for anyone who may have known to tell, especially in the light of protecting Jon. 

[Julia H.]

On 1/21/2020 at 9:03 PM, Lord Varys said:

Educated (i.e. most, if not all, noble) Westerosi don't believe in prophecy. Rhaegar was eccentric if not mad if he believed in prophecy and allowed his interpretations of prophecy to guide his actions. The idea that the Martells - Elia, Oberyn, or Doran - actually condoned and supported this kind of mad shit is very unlikely. And that was the original issue here. Whether Elia bought into/supported Rhaegar's shit - and I don't think she did, especially since nothing indicates she did.

Rhaegar was definitely eccentric, and not the only one among the Targaryens. But he was also an educated Westerosi, as was Maester Aemon, who belonged to the most educated segment of Westerosi society. And as I said, the Targaryens' family history taught them to pay attention to prophecies. Let's face the truth: This kind of knowledge meant a lot more to them than whatever the rest of the Westerosi thought. 

The Martells in general... there is no indication that anyone even shared this knowledge with any of them but Elia. But even if they had been informed, knowing the generally narrow-minded, self-serving nature of so many noblemen, yeah, why would they support something that might potentially serve only the good of the whole realm in the long run?

Whether Elia believed what Rhaegar believed (it's a mystery for me why you need to use disgusting words in your posts), saying that you don't think she did is fair enough. On my part, I find the information we have too little to decide. Obviously, there is a lot in this story that hurt her. But we know nothing about her original relationship with Rhaegar, which would play an important role in whether she believed in the prophecy on the one hand, or (at least) in Rhaegar's noble intentions, on the other hand. (Yes, it's totally possible that she refused to even listen to him from the very beginning.) It's also a question of personality how she was dealing with the situation she had to face. Jon Connington thinks "Elia was never worthy of him". Does that tell us anything important about Elia or only about Connington's bias and jealousy? We can have our opinion on this, but it's really just a guess. 

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No, we actually do know something about this. We know the Ghost of High Heart made a prophecy to Rhaegar's grandfather that the bloodline of his children would bring forth the promised prince. That is more than enough background knowledge to explain why Aerys II and Rhaella desperately tried to have more than one child and why people started to believe/hope Rhaegar was the promised prince after Summerhall - he was a son of Aerys and Rhaella, meaning he met one of the most the crucial prerequistes the promised prince as per the Ghost would have to have.

The contents of the ancient prophecy are not so relevant to understand this. And context there seems to be missing. Aemon knows the prophecy but cannot offer anything of substance in AFfC, nor can Marwyn later on.

I said we don't know the exact contents of the prophecy. Yes, we do know some things, you are right about that. My personal opinion is that there must be some sort of information somewhere on why on earth the "Promised Prince" is so important. If he is linked to the War for Dawn, that connection makes sense. "His is the song of ice and fire" also indicates things. Because if the prophecy only says that someone called"the Promised Prince" will be born then and there, then people would just say, OK, so who is this "Promised Prince"? Will his birth be good or bad for the world at all?

For someone to go out of his way to facilitate things for the Promised Prince (or to even believe he himself or his son might be this prince) it is necessary to have some further information on why the Promised Prince would be important, why the dragon needs three heads just now etc. 

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The best explanation for what I'm comfortable calling Rhaegar's 'madness' is that his family - his father, his mother, his great-great-uncle, his grandfather, etc. - bought into esoteric shit and fed this poor child their delusions that from their line would be born some savior and that as per the prophecies they had there was a good chance that he, Rhaegar, would be this hero. There is no rationality behind all that.

It might be, but as long as this is a magical world, and the Targaryens themselves are a magical family (blood of the dragon), handing down magical knowledge to the next generation seems quite rational. 

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It is always wrong to try to force the hand of fate/destiny. That's something George makes always clear when talking about prophecy. If you try to understand it, think you understand it, try to make it come true, or try to prevent it you are just making things worse, not better.

That may be the knowledge of authors and readers like you, but what should the poor character do who learns about a prophecy regarding the fate of the world or even just the fate of his own family and feels responsibility perhaps to avert a terrible disaster precisely because he is a royal prince and therefore has more means to act and more responsibility than the average guy? 

Besides, it was also George who wrote the story of the prophetic dream about the Doom of Valyria. He wrote that acting on that prophecy was what saved the Targaryens. After this, it is rather hard to send the message that it is always better to leave prophecies alone. 

We have the story of a prophetic dream (in world) that gave someone a good idea.

We have the exact words of an unconditionally worded prophecy that a character (Cersei) is desperately trying to avert. We know part of the prophecy has already come true, and therefore we suspect she is trying in vain to avert the rest. We don't yet know whether she has guessed the identity of the "little brother" correctly - a lot of readers think she is probably mistaken.  

We have Melisandre who we all think has interpreted a prophecy in the wrong way, so her efforts to help Stannis overcome the Others are probably futile. But she isn't exactly trying to fulfill the prophecy itself, which is about the rebirth of AA. She seriously thinks it has already happened (AA has been reborn), she is merely trying to "bring out" AA Reborn in Stannis, and she can't figure out why it's not working. However, she is not without the ability to see certain things in the future, and sometimes she interpretes what she sees correctly.  

The fact is that we do not know the wording of the prophecy Rhaegar was acting on, therefore we don't know whether Rhaegar was trying to make the prophecy come true (as you think) or was merely trying to fulfill a necessary condition that was stated in the prophecy.

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I'm not saying Rhaegar suffered from mental illness like his father - rather, that he had the same issues as Aerion Brightflame or Aegon V: trying to force the hand of fate rather than accepting that fate knows how to work itself. A true prophecy tells what will be no matter what you do. If there was a possibility that a true prophecy not come true then it was just a likelihood - or better still - just a plan. Plans can go wrong. True prophecies just fulfill themselves.

Unless there is a condition stated which may or may not happen but can be / must be realized before the main part of the prophecy comes true. 

Did Aerion Brightflame try to fulfill a prophecy? Didn't he just have an idea (when probably drunk)? Because it's a different situation.

I'm not sure Summerhall was about a prophecy either - it was just a magical experiment, and it went wrong. But the idea to magically bring back the dragons was realized later without a major disaster happening. 

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The idea that Rhaegar ever had another goal but to produce this mysterious third dragon head (when we don't even know who the other dragon head besides Aegon was) is pretty far-fetched. And any insistence to make prophecy a great driving force in all actions relating to Lyanna cheapens the romance part of their story and takes away agency from Lyanna - who, if she was a willing participant in any of this, also would have been a very important player. But Lya really is the kind of person (as per her sober quotes about love) who would really mock and ridicule Rhaegar if he ever talked to her about prophecy.

Well, there must have been a reason why he was so intent on producing the third dragon head. The text of the book links the three heads of the dragons with "the song of ice and fire", the exact title of the series. There must be more to it than we have been told so far. 

Yes, Lyanna obviously has her own story within the story. Another story I hope we'll find out more about. 

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I mean, seriously, just imagine I showed up one day at your door telling you how 'prophecy' demanded that you come with me and fuck me and become my second lawful wife. That is worse than the ultimate creep come-on line...

But Lord Varys, what do you mean? 

You know, if I'm a headstrong teenage girl desperately wanting to avoid an arranged marriage with a guy I can't stand, and suddenly there comes the Silver Prince with the Golden Voice of every girl's dream and takes my hand, do I even listen to the pick-up line?

Seriously, there are many ways it may have happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna, and we don't even know how much of it was planned by either of them in advance, and how much happened due to circumstances they couldn't control. 

[Julia H.]

On 1/22/2020 at 12:17 AM, frenin said:

When i say people i'm talking about the a majority and no, the majority of people don't believe in dreams and prophecies and even someone who has studied them carefully as Marwyn i understand that they are untrustworthy.

I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one.

 

Egg dreamt about dragons and as others acted trying to fulfil said dream and we know how it went... As i said whether it works or not, it's pure zeal.

The majority of people don't ever have to deal with prophecies or prophetic dreams.

"My brothers dreamed of dragons..." is not about literal dreaming, but about longing for dragons. We could equally say that Renly dreamed of the Iron Throne and it killed him. It has nothing to do with prophecies or prophetic dreams. 

On 1/22/2020 at 12:17 AM, frenin said:

We don't know other women, we can't make a guess based on our bias, we know that they are subdued but they all have their own will and agenda, even someone who perfectly fits in the  highborn girl idea as Sansa has will and agenda. What makes you assume the others don't??

No, not on bias. I assume that different people have different personalities. We know very little about Elia's personality. Let me quote from the wiki:

1) Elia Martell was said to be beautiful,^[11] slender,^[2] with black eyes, and a flat chest.^[12] She always had a delicate health,^[2][5] having been born a month premature,^[13] which did not permit her much travel in her youth.^[5] According to Barristan Selmy, Elia was a gentle, good, and gracious lady, but he also describes her as frail, due to her delicate health.^[14][15] He also says she was kind and clever, with a sweet wit.^[16]

2) George R.R. Martin has described Elia's relationship to Rhaegar as "complex". 

The information we do have about her leaves a lot of room for different possibilities. You may have her complete story on your computer and know that only one version can be correct, but I'll reserve judgement until the books give us more information. 

On 1/22/2020 at 12:17 AM, frenin said:

No, Doran was angry with Rhaegar, that's clear, we're given two reasons why he did not support him as strongly as he might have and one of them is "anger at his treatment of Elia". Why do you think Aerys had to threat Elia??  Why do you think Lewyn needed to be reminded all that?? Why do you think we don't hear any complains on Rhaegar's part?? What did he call Jaime?? A crutch wasn't it??

Well, I went by the quote from GRRM that you gave me, and it said "the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution"

If you read this sentence carefully, you will see that Prince Doran is mentioned only in connection with the innate caution. Rhaegar's treatment of Elia angered the Dornishmen (who had to fight for him) and another reason was Prince Doran's innate caution (which, being innate, had nothing to do with Rhaegar and what he had done). Curious wording...

As for Aerys, he was paranoid, and his hostility towards Elia and the Dornish in general had a long history. When Elia's first child was born, Aerys refused to touch her and complained that she smelled Dornish. What is this if not hostility against Elia and the Dornish as a group, including even the Mad King's own grandchild, long before Lyanna happened? Aerys didn't need any real reason for the Dornish to be disloyal to think they were disloyal. 

On 1/22/2020 at 12:17 AM, frenin said:

2) I don't think it has nothing to do with hindsight, if you kidnappmy sister, prepare for trouble as simple as that, that Rhaegar or Lyanna, if she wasn't kidnapped, did not think about all those very powerful people who loved Lyanna enough to go for war over her and drag the continent with them, it's entirely on him.

That's actually wrong. Rhaegar took Lyanna, and Lord Stark did not start a war for her. Robert Baratheon did not start a war either. It was only extremely hot-headed Brandon whose reaction we know of, and he did not take an army to King's Landing with him. He wanted to fight Rhaegar personally, no one else. Then he was arrested by Aerys. With two of his children held by the Targaryens, Lord Stark still didn't start a war or a rebellion, but obediently went to King's Landing himself when he was summoned, and there he simply demanded a trial by combat (a common way of settling differences), and was killed in a most infamous manner, together with his son. After killing a high lord and his heir (in effect denying them a fair trial, as a trial of combat was regarded by that society), the king began to demand the heads of two further high lords, who had done absolutely nothing, and that was the moment when the rebellion began, far, far removed from the abduction of a girl.

It wasn't "obvious" that a war would break out over Lyanna, and a war did not break out over Lyanna. It was that Aerys, in his madness and paranoia, started to kill off the high lords of his country that caused the war.   

On 1/22/2020 at 12:17 AM, frenin said:

No, she didn't.  She never agreed with the situation  and did her best to change it, accepting does not mean, unable to change something, which is exactly what Cat was.

I think where we disagree is what we mean by "accepting". I think, from a semantic viewpoint, it is possible to accept something you don't agree with. 

On 1/22/2020 at 12:17 AM, frenin said:

Well start banging from flea bottom to Baelish and if that it's not enough from Baelish to Stokeworth, you know people whose threat you might be able to manage.  

Yeah, if it had been about lust. But it wasn't.

On 1/22/2020 at 12:17 AM, frenin said:

Whether it's morally wrong or not it's not the point. The point is killing a kid because you believe his sacrifice can awake stone dragons is pure zealotry.

FYI, according to the Merriam Webster dictionary, zealotry is 'excess of zeal, fanatical devotion', and zeal is 'eagerness and ardent interest in pursuit of something'. I have more problem with the morality of the above action than with the degree of zeal involved. (Stannis is actually not overly devoted to the idea of sacrificing the kid. He delays, he needs to be convinced, and finally, he listens to Davos and reason after Davos rescues the kid.)

On 1/22/2020 at 12:17 AM, frenin said:

1. There are more examples in the story where people don't understand and misuse magic.

If you say so... But that doesn't negate the examples where magic is used effectively. I guess, in our world, there are more people who don't understand the theory of relativity than people who do, but it does not follow that whoever wants to learn it or use it must be a mad zealot. 

On 1/22/2020 at 12:17 AM, frenin said:

2.  No, Tywin pursues what it's best for his family, that's not zealotry.

Tywin will kill hundreds and thousands of innocent people in pursuit of his family's (perceived) interests. That's definitely excess of something to me... it fits the definition above.

On 1/22/2020 at 12:17 AM, frenin said:

3. Isn't it?? Well, if not he would've never agreed to half the things that come from Meli's mouth.

I have the feeling that Stannis is sceptical about a lot of things Mel says - at least until she proves her power with shadowbabies etc. - but he finds she has the ability to impress and convince people, something he himself painfully lacks, and to do magic as well. I don't think Stannis is a real religious fanatic - that's Mel. He is more like trying to "strike a deal", so to speak, with the Red God. Basically he thinks Mel is useful, therefore he is willing to convert to her religion, but he does not have the kind of religious devotion that Mel has. This is getting off-topic though.   

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

The majority of people don't ever have to deal with prophecies or prophetic dreams.

"My brothers dreamed of dragons..." is not about literal dreaming, but about longing for dragons. We could equally say that Renly dreamed of the Iron Throne and it killed him. It has nothing to do with prophecies or prophetic dreams. 

No?? 

It's completely about literal dreaming, they dreamt with dragons, everyone of them, Daeron the Drunk, Egg and Aerion and those dreams took them to their graves. The first by trying to supress those dreams and the other two by trying to fulfil them, it's difficult to see the madness and stupidity of an action, when your dream suggests you you can't do no wrong, as Daemon 2 about it.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

No, not on bias. I assume that different people have different personalities. We know very little about Elia's personality. Let me quote from the wiki:

1) Elia Martell was said to be beautiful,^[11] slender,^[2] with black eyes, and a flat chest.^[12] She always had a delicate health,^[2][5] having been born a month premature,^[13] which did not permit her much travel in her youth.^[5] According to Barristan Selmy, Elia was a gentle, good, and gracious lady, but he also describes her as frail, due to her delicate health.^[14][15] He also says she was kind and clever, with a sweet wit.^[16]

2) George R.R. Martin has described Elia's relationship to Rhaegar as "complex". 

The information we do have about her leaves a lot of room for different possibilities. You may have her complete story on your computer and know that only one version can be correct, but I'll reserve judgement until the books give us more information. 

Ofc it's on bias, at any rate being "good, gracious and gentle" means "Elia had no thought on her own, she blieved her husband can do no wrong." Especially when you can't name a single woman who ever had that mindset. Especially dornish women, wouldn't have that mindset. 

The rest is just a strawman because i didn't say that there is no room for Elia agreeing, perhaps because you're discussing with two users you've forgotten the point. I've said several times that if Elia was another zealot believed in the prophecy, then every point is moot because she'd do and agree  with whatever. I'd objected this arguments.

 

1. Even if she didn't believe in the prophecy it was in her best interest/duty to please Rhaegar and accept whatever funny idea that came out of his mouth because otherwise she would risk an annulment, she would have "the status of wife number 1º". which is unlikely, etc etc etc. 
2. She would need to compromise with the situation.
3.  She may just believed that "her husband knew better". (This i dislike the most).

 

It's not about having Martin's direct line, but about knowing that Dornish women simply are not raised with that mindset, so is almost impossible Elia had that mindset, but even the rest of Westerosi women haven't shown that mindset either, so you're completely basing your argument in a complete ad conditionalis. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Well, I went by the quote from GRRM that you gave me, and it said "the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution"

If you read this sentence carefully, you will see that Prince Doran is mentioned only in connection with the innate caution. Rhaegar's treatment of Elia angered the Dornishmen (who had to fight for him) and another reason was Prince Doran's innate caution (which, being innate, had nothing to do with Rhaegar and what he had done). Curious wording...

As for Aerys, he was paranoid, and his hostility towards Elia and the Dornish in general had a long history. When Elia's first child was born, Aerys refused to touch her and complained that she smelled Dornish. What is this if not hostility against Elia and the Dornish as a group, including even the Mad King's own grandchild, long before Lyanna happened? Aerys didn't need any real reason for the Dornish to be disloyal to think they were disloyal. 

Perhaps you're reading it too carefully, the Dornish could've sent 20k or 30k men instead of 10k, but they didn't because Doran was both anger and cautious, as far as i can tell Doran is still a dornishman but not every dornish is cautious, in fact we have yet to see a current one but Doran, so the sentence makes perfect sense,  it has absolutely nothing curious or concealed about it. You just don't want to accept the obvious.

Aerys disliked the Dornish, he did not think they were disloyal prior the war, that's a rather big difference, he disliked Aerys for a decade but he did not start believing Tywin was after him until the Duskendale defiance... where Tywin planned to have him killed.

 

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

That's actually wrong. Rhaegar took Lyanna, and Lord Stark did not start a war for her. Robert Baratheon did not start a war either. It was only extremely hot-headed Brandon whose reaction we know of, and he did not take an army to King's Landing with him. He wanted to fight Rhaegar personally, no one else. Then he was arrested by Aerys. With two of his children held by the Targaryens, Lord Stark still didn't start a war or a rebellion, but obediently went to King's Landing himself when he was summoned, and there he simply demanded a trial by combat (a common way of settling differences), and was killed in a most infamous manner, together with his son. After killing a high lord and his heir (in effect denying them a fair trial, as a trial of combat was regarded by that society), the king began to demand the heads of two further high lords, who had done absolutely nothing, and that was the moment when the rebellion began, far, far removed from the abduction of a girl.

It wasn't "obvious" that a war would break out over Lyanna, and a war did not break out over Lyanna. It was that Aerys, in his madness and paranoia, started to kill off the high lords of his country that caused the war.   

No, it's not wrong.

Lord Stark was south of the Neck, heading to Riverrun,  when the news might come to him, before he got a chance to do much Brandon was already captured and with his heir already a hostage in the hands of a mad man, he needed to head fast to KL, Robert , and Ned, was trapped in the Eyrie, which is almost inaccesible during winter and to even start doing that he'd need to have old Jon's leave to go home and prepare to war, that's the reason why the very first thing both Ned and Robert do when the Robellion started was make their way home to gather an army. So before anyone got the chance to even get the news,  Brandon was already on his way to King's Landing.  The idea that no one cared until Aerys started demanding heads, completely ignores timeline, geography, relative distances.  logistics and almost everything else to make extremely hot headed Brandon the resposible of the war and keep the couple's hands clean, it also ignores everything we know about the characters, because every situation in which Robert and Ned believed Lyanna kidnapped would involve blood and it's not like Jon Arryn would let his golden boys on his own right??

So yes, It was extremely obvious that war would break over Lyanna. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I think where we disagree is what we mean by "accepting". I think, from a semantic viewpoint, it is possible to accept something you don't agree with. 

It's possible but she did not accept it, since she made everything to get him out of sight.

 

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Yeah, if it had been about lust. But it wasn't.

As far as we know, there is no difference, like at all, between a whore from Chataya's brothel and Lyanna, no one in universehas ever even hinted that only the noblest blood it's necessary to do it, so as far as we know, this idea is just pure entitlement and ignorance and snobbism.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

FYI, according to the Merriam Webster dictionary, zealotry is 'excess of zeal, fanatical devotion', and zeal is 'eagerness and ardent interest in pursuit of something'. I have more problem with the morality of the above action than with the degree of zeal involved. (Stannis is actually not overly devoted to the idea of sacrificing the kid. He delays, he needs to be convinced, and finally, he listens to Davos and reason after Davos rescues the kid.)

Oh, thanks for the info. Didn't know it.

I don't find much difference, had Stannis killed Edric, and the only thing that prevented that was Davos the Goat, he'd be as much zealot as the rest are.

 

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

If you say so... But that doesn't negate the examples where magic is used effectively. I guess, in our world, there are more people who don't understand the theory of relativity than people who do, but it does not follow that whoever wants to learn it or use it must be a mad zealot. 

The comparative is so off, that i don't know what to say and i was already surprised with the political analysis.

 

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

 

 

Quote

Tywin will kill hundreds and thousands of innocent people in pursuit of his family's (perceived) interests. That's definitely excess of something to me... it fits the definition above.

Survival is not zealotry, he did because that increased his and his family odds to survive the wa against a tangible enemy. Not a perceived one.

 

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I have the feeling that Stannis is sceptical about a lot of things Mel says - at least until she proves her power with shadowbabies etc. - but he finds she has the ability to impress and convince people, something he himself painfully lacks, and to do magic as well. I don't think Stannis is a real religious fanatic - that's Mel. He is more like trying to "strike a deal", so to speak, with the Red God. Basically he thinks Mel is useful, therefore he is willing to convert to her religion, but he does not have the kind of religious devotion that Mel has. This is getting off-topic though.   

Unlikely that he would have ever gone to Storm's End to face Renly's gigantic army if he did not trust her, at the end it doesn't matter, striking a deal or not, he's Meli's.

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Prophecy and prophetic dreams are part of the Targaryen DNA. The Hedge Knight has a dragon dream right off the bat that becomes true by the time we reach the last pages of that. Egg says the dragons will return because his uncle read it in a prophecy and his brother dreamed it. That became true some 80 years later when Dany hatched the eggs, and the Targaryens seem poised to make a come back as well. Daemon Blackfyre and his dream of Dunc as a Kingsguard, which also came to pass. 

Fire and Blood had a prophecy in it that seemed to link directly to Rhaegar's death on the Trident at the hand of Bobby B. That happened some 150 years after the Dance.

Maester Aemon talks about a dream one of his brothers had that seems to be an important component to what's happening. 

Prophecy is a tricky, we know that. But I don't know why any Targaryen would dismiss it right off hand, especially if they know their family history. It might make them look crazy, but as some have said, the Targs were saved by a prophetic dream

On 1/21/2020 at 11:20 AM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Oberyn is aiming his revenge at the Lannisters and not the Targaryens.

That's actually the really interesting part in this (for me, at least), where the Martells are laying the blame for the deaths of Elia and the children, squarely on Robert and the Lannisters. 

We know Doran sent Oberyn to King's Landing to take the measure of the boy king and to find allies to support them with Dany. And Oberyn looks to Tyrion who will never have Casterly Rock or the westerlands and Sansa, who is now the considered heir to House Stark and the north, following Robb's death at the Red Wedding and the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon (I'm not taking Robb's will into consideration in this since he disinherited her). 

And when Ellaria has her meltdown about the revenge the Sand Snakes are seeking, nowhere are the Starks mentioned, even though Ned was one of the leaders of the rebellion.

That said, the Martells have Rhoynish blood and the Rhoynar do have their own folklore about the Long Night. We don't know what the Martells believe, but Sarella takes what Sam tells her about everything that's happened very seriously. 

I do think Doran and Oberyn knew exactly what was going on with the trio of Lyanna/Rhaegar/Elia, and there is no way they would not have known that Lyanna and the Kingsguard were in Dorne. House Fowler are the Warden of the Prince's Pass. I imagine they would have informed their liege lord of this. And if they didn't, there are caravans that travel there. 

There was a battle in their lands between northmen and the Kingsguard where one of their own died. 

I think the Martells know most of the story, if not all of it.

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

No?? 

It's completely about literal dreaming, they dreamt with dragons, everyone of them, Daeron the Drunk, Egg and Aerion and those dreams took them to their graves. The first by trying to supress those dreams and the other two by trying to fulfil them, it's difficult to see the madness and stupidity of an action, when your dream suggests you you can't do no wrong, as Daemon 2 about it.

Maester Aemon also literally dreamed with dragons and it didn't cause his death. It was wanting dragons that resulted in deaths.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Ofc it's on bias, at any rate being "good, gracious and gentle" means "Elia had no thought on her own, she blieved her husband can do no wrong." Especially when you can't name a single woman who ever had that mindset. Especially dornish women, wouldn't have that mindset. 

The rest is just a strawman because i didn't say that there is no room for Elia agreeing, 

I feel that you are getting ... well, impolite here? 

But if you mean you agree that there is room for Elia (for example) to agree to Rhaegar's plan, then why have you written so many posts insisting that when I say the same, I must be wrong? 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Perhaps you're reading it too carefully, the Dornish could've sent 20k or 30k men instead of 10k, but they didn't because Doran was both anger and cautious, as far as i can tell Doran is still a dornishman but not every dornish is cautious, in fact we have yet to see a current one but Doran, so the sentence makes perfect sense,  it has absolutely nothing curious or concealed about it. You just don't want to accept the obvious.

"... so the sentence makes perfect sense..." Sure, it does.  

1 hour ago, frenin said:

No, it's not wrong.

Lord Stark was south of the Neck, heading to Riverrun,  when the news might come to him, before he got a chance to do much Brandon was already captured and with his heir already a hostage in the hands of a mad man, he needed to head fast to KL, Robert , and Ned, was trapped in the Eyrie, which is almost inaccesible during winter and to even start doing that he'd need to have old Jon's leave to go home and prepare to war, that's the reason why the very first thing both Ned and Robert do when the Robellion started was make their way home to gather an army. So before anyone got the chance to even get the news,  Brandon was already on his way to King's Landing.  The idea that no one cared until Aerys started demanding heads, completely ignores timeline, geography, relative distances.  logistics and almost everything else to make extremely hot headed Brandon the resposible of the war and keep the couple's hands clean, it also ignores everything we know about the characters, because every situation in which Robert and Ned believed Lyanna kidnapped would involve blood and it's not like Jon Arryn would let his golden boys on his own right??

So yes, It was extremely obvious that war would break over Lyanna. 

OK, I can see you have already written the missing parts. Good job! So with Lyanna (as a possible hostage) in Targaryen hands Rickard was definitely about to start a war (no chance of negotiations), but with Brandon in Targaryen hands, he went meekly to KL to negotiate with the Targaryens (and never tried to delay a bit until he had an army behind him). 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It's possible but she did not accept it, since she made everything to get him out of sight.

All right, she didn't accept him then, just endured him in Winterfell, put up with the situation, learned to live with the problem, etc. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

As far as we know, there is no difference, like at all, between a whore from Chataya's brothel and Lyanna, no one in universehas ever even hinted that only the noblest blood it's necessary to do it, so as far as we know, this idea is just pure entitlement and ignorance and snobbism.

It's in a world where blood is everything. (Nobility tends to be entitled, yes.) As for ignorance, has it occurred to you that Rhaegar just might have known more about the prophecy than we do? Like what exactly it said, to give you just one obvious example? But actually, no one else has said that the main point about Lyanna or even about her "blood" was the degree of nobility, it's something you say. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

The comparative is so off, that i don't know what to say and i was already surprised with the political analysis.

Why? 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Survival is not zealotry, he did because that increased his and his family odds to survive the wa against a tangible enemy. Not a perceived one.

Tywin did not only kill for survival. He had his soldiers raid the Riverlands even before the war started. The Reynes of Castamere did not threaten the survival of the Lannisters, yet Tywin killed everyone in their castle down to the smallest baby. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Unlikely that he would have ever gone to Storm's End to face Renly's gigantic army if he did not trust her, at the end it doesn't matter, striking a deal or not, he's Meli's.

Yes, he trusted Mel, of course, he believed that Mel had the means to help him. But I don't think he shared her belief that he was AA reborn, nor did he really want to be. He only wanted to be King of the Seven Kingdoms. 

[frenin]

59 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Maester Aemon also literally dreamed with dragons and it didn't cause his death. It was wanting dragons that resulted in deaths.

1. Ofc, Aemon was talking about his brothers, not him. His brothers had prophetic drams with dragons.
2. None of his brothers would've died the way they did if they weren't affected by those dreams.

Had not Aerion and Egg dreamt with dragons returning to Westeros, they would not have tried to fulgil those dreams. Had Daemon 2 not dreamt about a dragon hatching in Whitewalls, there would not have been a 2 Blackfyre rebellion and, if you want to believe that's the primary factor, had Rhaegar not tried to fulfil the prophecy, he would not have lost everything.

Because it was wanting to fulfil the prophecy that resulted in his death.

 

 

59 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

I feel that you are getting ... well, impolite here? 

But if you mean you agree that there is room for Elia (for example) to agree to Rhaegar's plan, then why have you written so many posts insisting that when I say the same, I must be wrong? 

Funny you say that,  I don't like condescension and as i said above i disagree with these statements.

 

1. Even if she didn't believe in the prophecy it was in her best interest/duty to please Rhaegar and accept whatever funny idea that came out of his mouth because otherwise she would risk an annulment, she would have "the status of wife number 1º". which is unlikely, etc etc etc. 
2. She would need to compromise with the situation.
3.  She may just believed that "her husband knew better". (This i dislike the most).

 

I agree that Elia may have been either believed the prophecy or being convinced about its importance, i completely disagree that if it she didn't share his hubby's concerns, the best for her was play ball. That's the best for Rhaegar

59 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

"... so the sentence makes perfect sense..." Sure, it does.  

Ofc it does, Doran is both Dornishman, he is angry, and he's known for his caution.

 

 

59 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

OK, I can see you have already written the missing parts. Good job! So with Lyanna (as a possible hostage) in Targaryen hands Rickard was definitely about to start a war (no chance of negotiations), but with Brandon in Targaryen hands, he went meekly to KL to negotiate with the Targaryens (and never tried to delay a bit until he had an army behind him). 

Talking about impolite again.

That's not writting the missing parts, it's just texting all we know.

We know that Rickard was heading south with 200 men and heading to Riverrun, we know that Brandon and his wedding party were heading north to welcome them when he heard about the news of Lyanna and instead of heading north and telling his father he raced to King's Landing,  so yes before Ned and Robert (Eyrie) and Rickard (going south), Brandon who is the first we're told got the info would be already on his way to death. So far, that's the info we have, the rest is working with that info, you know timeline, relative distance, geography and the such, what is writing the missing parts is claiming that no one cared about Lyanna's whereabouts until Aerys demanded Bobby's and Ned's heads.

I believe that you can see the great difference between kidnapping and raping and a hostage and why those two situations would imply different approaches.

 

 

59 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

All right, she didn't accept him then, just endured him in Winterfell, put up with the situation, learned to live with the problem, etc. 

That she did while also pleading to get him out. 

Regarding to Elia, her situation was not Cat's. Given Rhaegar's great ability to making enemies, given that he needed Dorne to back his plans regarding his father and given that he was one mistake away from getting  disowned, Elia could afford not act like Cat if she wanted

 

 

59 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

It's in a world where blood is everything. (Nobility tends to be entitled, yes.) As for ignorance, has it occurred to you that Rhaegar just might have known more about the prophecy than we do? Like what exactly it said, to give you just one obvious example? But actually, no one else has said that the main point about Lyanna or even about her "blood" was the degree of nobility, it's something you say. 

At any rate i said that Rhaegar didn't know more than we do,, that's precisely why i said as far we know you're the one saying that Rhaegar could not get a dragon head with a commoner or a simple noble.

Quote

"If it was the three heads of the dragon that was at stake, though, then Rhaegar probably wasn't going to father a child on a random girl in KL."

 "Yeah, if it had been about lust. But it wasn't."

  How can you be so sure about this?? We don't know. 

The main political point about Lyanna was both her blood and the powerful men she had behind her, which is why it's extremely unlikely that a non believer whose kids were already mistreated by the King, would ever accept such deal.

 

 

59 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Tywin did not only kill for survival. He had his soldiers raid the Riverlands even before the war started. The Reynes of Castamere did not threaten the survival of the Lannisters, yet Tywin killed everyone in their castle down to the smallest baby. 

Cat had kidnapped his hated son then and the Castamere and the Tarbeck did threaten the survival of the Lannisters, they rebelled against the weakest and most despised Lord of Casterly we've known so far and under the reign of a King who was reckoned weak by all. But then again, if you want to consider him a zealot, sure why not.

 

59 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Yes, he trusted Mel, of course, he believed that Mel had the means to help him. But I don't think he shared her belief that he was AA reborn, nor did he really want to be. He only wanted to be King of the Seven Kingdoms. 

At the beginning?? Perhaps not, later?? Sure he believed in all of it, that's why he keeps saying that the true enemy is beyond the wall. That was his rationalization about burning Edric, killing one to save them all.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Rhaegar was definitely eccentric, and not the only one among the Targaryens. But he was also an educated Westerosi, as was Maester Aemon, who belonged to the most educated segment of Westerosi society. And as I said, the Targaryens' family history taught them to pay attention to prophecies. Let's face the truth: This kind of knowledge meant a lot more to them than whatever the rest of the Westerosi thought.

But most of the other educated Westerosi didn't share their eccentric and self-destructive views. People focus on the misses not on the hits as Alester Florent's talk about Targaryen dragon-hatching madness (and Stannis' desire to continue this) shows.

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

The Martells in general... there is no indication that anyone even shared this knowledge with any of them but Elia. But even if they had been informed, knowing the generally narrow-minded, self-serving nature of so many noblemen, yeah, why would they support something that might potentially serve only the good of the whole realm in the long run?

Nobody gave a damn about any danger the Realm was in - that's the entire point. Rhaegar, too, only cared about a promised prince and whatever was attached to that stuff in his mind, but not, you know, to actually prevent whatever war or conflict the promised prince was destined to fight in or to prevent things from getting so worse that a savior will be needed.

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Whether Elia believed what Rhaegar believed (it's a mystery for me why you need to use disgusting words in your posts), saying that you don't think she did is fair enough. On my part, I find the information we have too little to decide. Obviously, there is a lot in this story that hurt her. But we know nothing about her original relationship with Rhaegar, which would play an important role in whether she believed in the prophecy on the one hand, or (at least) in Rhaegar's noble intentions, on the other hand. (Yes, it's totally possible that she refused to even listen to him from the very beginning.) It's also a question of personality how she was dealing with the situation she had to face. Jon Connington thinks "Elia was never worthy of him". Does that tell us anything important about Elia or only about Connington's bias and jealousy? We can have our opinion on this, but it's really just a guess. 

I use those words because I actually think Rhaegar was a self-involved prince who cared more about his savior complex or whatever caused him to develop the delusion that he and his children were *important* for the future of humanity rather than, you know, learn how to be a good king, how to win great friends among the noblemen who counted (Jon Connington and some Mootons, Whents, and Daynes didn't count). He is essentially another Daemon II Blackfyre. Compared to Mad Aerys II Rhaegar looks shiny and sane, but he wasn't particularly charismatic (Robert was) and he seems to have suffered from depression throughout his entire life.

I don't think saying Elia was 'hurt' is the proper choice of words here. She was publicly humiliated as a Princess of Dorne and wife by this whole Lyanna thing. Her being 'hurt' implies she cared personally about the thing, which, in turn, implies she cared (much) for Rhaegar, which we also don't know. What we can say, though, is that no noblewoman of Elia's rank could ignore how this looked in the public eye.

FaB gives us some cases for arranged marriages which worked very fine (like many of those Alysanne arranged, involved people who had known each other and developed feelings for each other before it was decided they would marry). Elia-Rhaegar are definitely not one of those cases. Aerys II decided his heir would marry Elia very late, and the betrothal lasted only a year before the wedding. We don't even know whether Elia and Rhaegar met each other (often) before their wedding took place (there is no indication that Elia lived at court during her betrothal to Rhaegar - she may only have come to court for the wedding). All that makes it very unlikely that she was romantically or sexually attracted to him.

For Elia to consider Rhaegar had *noble intentions* she and Rhaegar would have to understand what the promised prince was for exactly. What kind of danger was coming and when. The Targaryens didn't prepare for anything throughout the reign of Aerys II, not while they thought Rhaegar himself was the promised prince, not while Rhaegar thought Aegon was the promised prince. At this point all we can expect Elia to know about the prophecy is that for some reason there is going to be a promised prince been born. And said prince was then born, according to Rhaegar, in Elia's son, Aegon Targaryen.

Nothing in the prophecy indicates that those so-called dragon heads are supposed to be (half-)siblings. Queen Rhaella and Aerys II were still alive and well and could have more children as well as their son Rhaegar could. But this wasn't even necessary: There were three young Targaryens around in Prince Viserys, Princess Rhaenys, and Prince Aegon. Surely those are enough dragon heads, right? If push came to shove there would still be Rhaegar himself who would only be in his mid-thirties when his son Aegon came of age or even Aerys II and Queen Rhaella.

If Aemon can later consider himself a potential dragon head despite him being just Dany's great-great-granduncle then this is certainly indicates that the prophecy doesn't specify how those dragon heads are supposed to be related to each other... And it is this that gives away Rhaegar's mad 'savior/god complex', his obsession of thinking he is the guy who is going to have to play a pivotal role in all this.

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I said we don't know the exact contents of the prophecy. Yes, we do know some things, you are right about that. My personal opinion is that there must be some sort of information somewhere on why on earth the "Promised Prince" is so important. If he is linked to the War for Dawn, that connection makes sense. "His is the song of ice and fire" also indicates things. Because if the prophecy only says that someone called"the Promised Prince" will be born then and there, then people would just say, OK, so who is this "Promised Prince"? Will his birth be good or bad for the world at all?

There is an ancient prophecy about the promised prince and then there is the more recent one by the dwarf woman specifying the bloodline which is going to bring forth the prince. However, the ancient prophecy is definitely far too vague in its meaning to allow anyone reading to actually properly understand what the hell the promised prince is going to fight against or else people would have been more concerned with Westeros (in Essos) or the Wall and the lands beyond and the Others (in Westeros).

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

For someone to go out of his way to facilitate things for the Promised Prince (or to even believe he himself or his son might be this prince) it is necessary to have some further information on why the Promised Prince would be important, why the dragon needs three heads just now etc.

Not really. It could just be self-involved obsession. Rhaegar is a victim here of the madness of his grandfather, Jaehaerys II, and the belief of his parents (who must have fed him the idea that he was this savior character). We have no idea

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

It might be, but as long as this is a magical world, and the Targaryens themselves are a magical family (blood of the dragon), handing down magical knowledge to the next generation seems quite rational.

Most Targaryens were very mundane and worldly folk, not caring much about magic or sorcery or any of that stuff. Even the dragonriders didn't care much about magic, and we see, with Rhaenyra and Joffrey, that they didn't even pass down crucial bits of dragonlore to their children.

At this point it seems rather likely that the prophecy of the promised prince was completely forgotten until Aerys I discovered it - assuming it is the prophecy Egg talks about in TMK, the one about the dragons coming back one day.

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

That may be the knowledge of authors and readers like you, but what should the poor character do who learns about a prophecy regarding the fate of the world or even just the fate of his own family and feels responsibility perhaps to avert a terrible disaster precisely because he is a royal prince and therefore has more means to act and more responsibility than the average guy?

At this point we have no indication that the prophecy of the promised prince talks in understandable terms about a danger to the entire world or things like that.

But again - if the prophecy is true then it will come true no matter what Rhaegar does.

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Besides, it was also George who wrote the story of the prophetic dream about the Doom of Valyria. He wrote that acting on that prophecy was what saved the Targaryens. After this, it is rather hard to send the message that it is always better to leave prophecies alone. 

I dealt with that above - Rhaegar tries to fulfill a prophecy by interpreting it and looking for signs and portents (just as Cersei does the same thing trying to prevent a prophecy from coming true). Aenar Targaryen just left Valyria. His daughter had a prophetic vision about the destruction of Valyria, not a vision about the destruction of House Targaryen. What he did is akin to, say, Rhaegar deliberately deciding to attend or not attend the birth of the promised prince next month. Him being there doesn't change or affect the content of the prophecy - just as the Targaryens being there or not being there had no impact on the Doom that took Valyria.

What Rhaegar and Cersei do would be akin to Aenar trying to prevent or bring about the Doom of Valyria - and we can be sure that neither would have worked had he tried.

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

We have Melisandre who we all think has interpreted a prophecy in the wrong way, so her efforts to help Stannis overcome the Others are probably futile. But she isn't exactly trying to fulfill the prophecy itself, which is about the rebirth of AA. She seriously thinks it has already happened (AA has been reborn), she is merely trying to "bring out" AA Reborn in Stannis, and she can't figure out why it's not working. However, she is not without the ability to see certain things in the future, and sometimes she interpretes what she sees correctly.  

Mel tries to make Stannis Azor Ahai in the sense that she creates mock versions of the stuff she read in prophecy. She knows Stannis doesn't have Lightbringer and she knows the two swords she has given him (the one the wildfire ruined and the one with the glamor) are not Lightbringer, yet she thinks it is enough that he staged events and created things that sort of fit with what the ancient text says. This is trying to fulfill a prophecy by reading it as and then treating it like a script.

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

The fact is that we do not know the wording of the prophecy Rhaegar was acting on, therefore we don't know whether Rhaegar was trying to make the prophecy come true (as you think) or was merely trying to fulfill a necessary condition that was stated in the prophecy.

There is no talk about necessary conditions in this prophecy that we know of. But a true prophecy simply comes true - it takes care of the prophesied event itself as well as of any necessary conditions.

And this is akin to some of the other nonsensical obsession with special magical blood and stuff that floats around in the fandom: There is no indication that the prophecy of the promised prince is more than just a description/mentioning of the person who will lead a lot of people against that ill-defined danger. No indication that this person has to be a 'special person' in any magical sense.

If Jon Snow were the guy then the reason that he is the guy likely has pretty much nothing to do with whose son he is and everything where and in what position he happens to be in right now - at the Wall. The prophecy nowhere specifies that this promised prince is going to have 'special powers' based on his 'bloodline' or his parents or anything of that sort. It just indicates that he is going to do important things. Nothing indicates that the mythological Last Hero or Azor Ahai was from a special family background or had special blood.

The same goes for Dany - she never had any knowledge about any prophecy but she figured out all by herself how to hatch dragons from stone (which is a crucial part of the prophecy). Nobody ever planned her birth, and as things stand her parents didn't have to be married for that to happen since she is a child of rape, and her mad father could easily enough have raped and impregnated his sister if she had been married to somebody else at the time (or been already a widow).

Prior to the prophecy of the Ghost there wouldn't even have been any way to figure out from which branch of the Targaryen or Valyrian dragonlord family tree this person was going to be born

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Did Aerion Brightflame try to fulfill a prophecy? Didn't he just have an idea (when probably drunk)? Because it's a different situation.

He was also obsessed with bringing the dragons back (which was part of the point of the promised prince, too).

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I'm not sure Summerhall was about a prophecy either - it was just a magical experiment, and it went wrong. But the idea to magically bring back the dragons was realized later without a major disaster happening. 

Egg himself tells us in TMK that he would really like it if his egg was the one to hatch and bring back the dragons. And we know Aegon V also had prophetic dragon dreams.

Dany succeeding at a mad magical ritual does not post hoc justify all the madness the previous Targaryens pulled. That's like saying I'm justfied using a broken watch for a watch because it accurately depicts the time twice a day.

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Well, there must have been a reason why he was so intent on producing the third dragon head. The text of the book links the three heads of the dragons with "the song of ice and fire", the exact title of the series. There must be more to it than we have been told so far. 

Well, I expect 'the Song of Ice and Fire' is just another fancy name for 'the War for the Dawn'. And, perhaps, for the love story of the fiery dragon queen and Jon Snow.

The idea that Rhaegar mentioning the Song of Ice and Fire means he actually correctly understood what that meant isn't exactly based on good evidence.

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

You know, if I'm a headstrong teenage girl desperately wanting to avoid an arranged marriage with a guy I can't stand, and suddenly there comes the Silver Prince with the Golden Voice of every girl's dream and takes my hand, do I even listen to the pick-up line?

Lyanna wasn't desperately wanting to avoid her marriage to Robert. If she wanted to do that, she would have simply refused to marry Robert. She could have done that.

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Seriously, there are many ways it may have happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna, and we don't even know how much of it was planned by either of them in advance, and how much happened due to circumstances they couldn't control. 

If you take this prophecy angle then Rhaegar pretty much controlled everything. He was abducting and fucking (or raping) a minor girl to save the world. And that would be just a silly story.

[Crona]

We don’t have much information on Elia so I can’t really decide where she was in their relationship (we don’t even know the specifics of RLJ). However, the Martells blaming the deaths on Lannisters and Robert’s regime does not mean they favor Rhaegar. When Lyanna was crowned they were angry and sent forces during the war for Elia’s protection. The lack of caring for Viserys, to me feels like they are more indifferent towards the targs because the younger generation is not responsible for the deaths and having a Targ is preferable than any other houses as the ruling head. So I think the Martells siding with the Targs has more to do with their age and strategy rather having anything to do with Rhaegar’s supposed prophecy.

Also, I think the fact that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna in front of Elia is a pretty big indicator that their marriage was not well. I know there are theories that he crowned her for supposedly being the knight of laughing trees but Rhaegar knew the implications of crowning her. The only logical conclusion I can think of is Rhaegar and Elia were not getting along and he wanted her to feel embarrassed or hurt.

[James West]

She doesn't fit.  That's the problem.  If we are to assume a tryst existed between Rhaegar and Lyanna that was sexual in nature.  No lady in her right mind would accept such an arrangement.  It's not only her but the children.  Her marriage to Rhaegar was consumated and they have the children to prove it.  Any bastards of Rhaegar could threaten her children's own status if those bastards were to get legitimized by the king.  Rhaegar can't have children on the side and both sets be legit.  One side will have to be bastards.  Can you imagine the Dornish reaction when they are told Elia's children will now become bastards because prince asshole wants to make his bastards legitimized.  I know why this argument comes up again and again.  The Jon fans out there would like nothing more than to make their boy legit.  Dany's loyal fans like me wants her to have the only claim to the throne.  It depends on who you like.  As usual.  

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Crona said:

However, the Martells blaming the deaths on Lannisters and Robert’s regime does not mean they favor Rhaegar. When Lyanna was crowned they were angry and sent forces during the war for Elia’s protection. The lack of caring for Viserys, to me feels like they are more indifferent towards the targs because the younger generation is not responsible for the deaths and having a Targ is preferable than any other houses as the ruling head

That's pretty much it, after affirming that Tywin is not going to live forever, Oberyn plans to take with him to Dorne the heir of Casterly Rock, which Tyrion is until he us formally disowned or attainted, and the heir if Winterfell, Oberyn plans on revenging on Tywin and Doran wants to destroy him, while a Baratheon sits on the Iron Throne that's pretty much impossible nor like they like the Baratheons anyway. The Targs are their ticket to revenge.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 minutes ago, Dr. Miguelito Loveless said:

She doesn't fit.  That's the problem.  If we are to assume a tryst existed between Rhaegar and Lyanna that was sexual in nature.  No lady in her right mind would accept such an arrangement.  It's not only her but the children.  Her marriage to Rhaegar was consumated and they have the children to prove it.  Any bastards of Rhaegar could threaten her children's own status if those bastards were to get legitimized by the king.  Rhaegar can't have children on the side and both sets be legit.  One side will have to be bastards.  Can you imagine the Dornish reaction when they are told Elia's children will now become bastards because prince asshole wants to make his bastards legitimized.  I know why this argument comes up again and again.  The Jon fans out there would like nothing more than to make their boy legit.  Dany's loyal fans like me wants her to have the only claim to the throne.  It depends on who you like.  As usual.  

Quite the opposite, I find the Rhaegar haters wanting to make this out to be something we don't know that it is. Bastards are no threat to legitimate children & there's no reason to believe Aerys would have legitimized Jon anyway. Nor is there anything to suggest Rhaegar would have asked Elia to name her own children bastards to legitimize Lyanna's (can such a thing even happen?) I think if Jon was legitimized it wouldn't make Elia's children bastards, it would put Jon 3rd in line to the throne. 

Elia most certainly could have been angry about being cheated on, set aside, publicly embarrassed, but that isn't what you are talking about here. The majority of the Jon fans I have ran into, myself included, don't want Jon to have anything to do with the IT so I'm not sure what that is about either. 

 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 Quite the opposite, I find the Rhaegar haters wanting to make this out to be something we don't know that it is. Bastards are no threat to legitimate children & there's no reason to believe Aerys would have legitimized Jon anyway. Nor is there anything to suggest Rhaegar would have asked Elia to name her own children bastards to legitimize Lyanna's (can such a thing even happen?) I think if Jon was legitimized it wouldn't make Elia's children bastards, it would put Jon 3rd in line to the throne. 

 Elia most certainly could have been angry about being cheated on, set aside, publicly embarrassed, but that isn't what you are talking about here. The majority of the Jon fans I have ran into, myself included, don't want Jon to have anything to do with the IT so I'm not sure what that is about either. 

 

There is every reason however, to suspect that Rheagar might legit Jon,once he got the Throne. The question is why would Elia want to take that chance if she was not into any prophecy. Especially if Rhaegar is going ti do it regardless, why give your consent then to something you clearly don't agree with?? The only  reason i can  see is to calm his conscience. And why would she want to do that??

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

There is every reason however, to suspect that Rheagar might legit Jon,once he got the Throne. The question is why would Elia want to take that chance if she was not into any prophecy. Especially if Rhaegar is going ti do it regardless, why give your consent then to something you clearly don't agree with?? The only  reason i can  see is to calm his conscience. And why would she want to do that??

Why would Rhaegar make Jon legit when he got the Throne? How do we know Elia wasn't into the propehcy? 

For what it's worth I don't think Elia was probably all good with this. I think it likely made her very angry but Rhaegar felt it was his duty to this - That's what I think anyway. I just think we can't say for sure though. 

[Crona]

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

There is every reason however, to suspect that Rheagar might legit Jon,once he got the Throne. The question is why would Elia want to take that chance if she was not into any prophecy. Especially if Rhaegar is going ti do it regardless, why give your consent then to something you clearly don't agree with?? The only  reason i can  see is to calm his conscience. And why would she want to do that??

Rhaegar really doesn’t need her consent to set her aside. Yes, there may be an uproar but the Martells and the Faith would be no match for the Iron Throne. Maybe this is the reason why he went about it the way he did. 

[frenin]

29 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Why would Rhaegar make Jon legit when he got the Throne? How do we know Elia wasn't into the propehcy? 

For what it's worth I don't think Elia was probably all good with this. I think it likely made her very angry but Rhaegar felt it was his duty to this - That's what I think anyway. I just think we can't say for sure though. 

Why would Rhaegar want to choose Lyanna of all people?? I very much doubt that he'd want his kid to remain a bastard and then again, i can't name a single smart decision he made, i don't know why he'd take the smarter route here.

I don't know whether Elia was or not into that, that's why i say if she wasn't. If she wasn't, she would almost surely tell him to fuck off, if she was, whether she liked her lot or not, she'd either agree or at least she would not become an obstacle.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Crona said:

Rhaegar really doesn’t need her consent to set her aside. Yes, there may be an uproar but the Martells and the Faith would be no match for the Iron Throne. Maybe this is the reason why he went about it the way he did. 

Rhaegar needed both be king to do that and the support of those great lords he went out of his way to piss off. But as far as i know, the king can set aside any marriage.

[Crona]

19 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

 

Rhaegar needed both be king to do that and the support of those great lords he went out of his way to piss off. But as far as i know, the king can set aside any marriage.

Yup, I’m sure if Elia was fine with It then Rhaegar could have talked to Rickard and made a deal with Rickard to marry his daughter. Also, Aerys was against the dornish at the end of reign, I think Rhaegar could have convinced him to set aside Elia, especially if she wasn’t able to get another heir. Or he could have waited to become king.

But he didn’t do this, so I believe Elia was not consenting to his ideas.

 

 

[frenin]

26 minutes ago, Crona said:

Yup, I’m sure if Elia was fine with It then Rhaegar could have talked to Rickard and made a deal with Rickard to marry his daughter. Also, Aerys was against the dornish at the end of reign, I think Rhaegar could have convinced him to set aside Elia, especially if she wasn’t able to get another heir. Or he could have waited to become king.

But he didn’t do this, so I believe Elia was not consenting to his ideas.

 

 

I doubt Aerys would've agreed, just to fuck with him. I also doubt Rickard wanted but then again, that's not what he did. 

[Frey family reunion]

On 1/22/2020 at 10:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

I get it that people would like it that Elia know and liked prophecy stuff and was fine with Lyanna, etc. but to actually discuss such possibility we would need text hinting at that this might be the case. And there is nothing of that sort.

Instead there are hints that her family hated what Rhaegar did, causing massive problems between the Targaryens and the Martells, problems Elia may have actually fueled in letters she wrote to her brother.

We don't really have any information that there was any particular blowback between Rhaegar and Elia after he crowned Lyanna with the blue rose crown.  In fact, assuming the HOTU vision took place shortly after the Harrenhal tourney, there didn't appear to be any visible strain between the two as they spoke about what to name their child.

And while we're on that subject, it also doesn't appear that Rhaegar is hiding from Elia his belief that their child is the one to fulfill this role as the prince that was promised.  

Nor do we have any evidence whatsoever that Elia wrote any letters to either of her brothers concerning any issues she had with Rhaegar.  

If Rhaegar had a great deal of heat with the Martell's it does seem odd to me that he would hide his "new found love" Lyanna in the Prince's Pass, which would have put her directly within the jurisdiction of the Martells.