The Astapori situation

[Lord Varys]

There are quite a few people who claim Daenerys had her Dothraki and the Unsullied butcher innocent people over the age of twelve. But this actually factually incorrect when you read the text. The command she gives there reads like that:

Quote

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see." She raised the harpy's fingers in the air . . . and then she flung the scourge aside. "Freedom!" she sang out. "Dracarys! Dracarys!"

"Dracarys!" they shouted back, the sweetest word she'd ever heard. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire.

We can draw quite a few things from that:

1. There is a specification as to who is to be killed, namely the Good Master (who the Unsullied must have known very well and who were easily identifiable), their soldiers (who they may have known even better and who would have also been identifiable by their weapons and clothes/armor/whatever they wore), and all the men wearing a tokar and holding a whip (garments which would mark them as members of the ruling slaver class.

2. There is a specification who is not to be killed, namely any child under twelve and what's to be done to the slaves (they are to be freed from their chains).

3. Then it is made clear what the point of all that is - freedom. Dany is not going to want to conquer Astapor for her own sake but she wants to free the slaves. This is the deciding factor that causes the Unsullied to fight for her - prior to that they just ignored the Dothraki attack on the Good Masters.

What we can draw from that is that there are only three categories of people that were to be killed - Good Masters, their soldiers, and other members of the Astapori slaver elite/slavery system (men wearing tokars and men holding whips, i.e. wealthy slavers who are not Good Masters themselves and the many instructors and guards and other people wielding those instruments of punishment and oppression. We also learn who is definitely going to be spared - children under the age of twelve - but this doesn't mean men and women who don't fit the criteria of the people to be killed are to be killed.

Dany's Dothraki seem to take her commands very seriously - and the Unsullied are famed for obeying their commands to the letter. Chances that they decided to also arbitrarily kill men not fitting the criteria of the people that were supposed to be killed or that they decided to also target women (who Dany never mentioned) or children who seemed to be them to be 13-16 or so are not exactly very high. Dany's people are not Tywin's dogs.

That certainly doesn't mean Dany is not responsible if her soldiers killed some people who weren't explicitly mentioned - either because a child took up his father's whip and attacked a slave, some random Astapori not wearing a tokar and not holding a whip and not being a soldier picking up the fallen weapon of a soldier attacking some Unsullied or Dothraki, etc - or because an arrow went astray, a spear hit the wrong person, etc.

But overall it is quite clear that this thing wasn't a massacre where Dany wanted to kill all the slavers. It was a limited attack with the goal to break the power of the Good Masters and free their slaves. That quite a few of Astapori elite survived can be drawn from the fact that the council Dany installed later tried to bring the Good Masters specifically back into power (which can only work if there were still some Good Masters left, meaning not all were killed) and from the fact that later still King Cleon enslaved the remaining slavers to create new Unsullied.

This thing just wasn't a particularly cruel sacking - although it was very one-sided, of course. But even there it is quite clear that the Unsullied could have stood with their Good Masters if they had wanted to. Yes, they had concluded the bargain, but Dany betrayed it when she struck Kraznys mo Nakloz with the whip, taking back Drogo and telling him to burn Kraznys. At that point the Unsullied should have realized that the contract between Dany and the Good Masters had been broken since Daenerys refused to give up the dragon that was part of her payment. Yet they chose to do nothing ... and when called upon by Dany to attack the Astapori and free the slaves they chose to do that.

[X-Buster]

The Liberation of The Unsullied was a successful rescue mission.  The Sack of King's Landing is another matter entirely.  The first is a precise operation to rescue 8,000 trained slaves and many more in training. 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Unit A2 said:

The Liberation of The Unsullied was a successful rescue mission.  The Sack of King's Landing is another matter entirely.  The first is a precise operation to rescue 8,000 trained slaves and many more in training. 

Oh, I actually meant to draw a parallel there between Tywin and Dany to illustrate the command stuff. Tywin claims he had told Lorch and Gregor only to kill Aegon and Rhaenys. If this were true (which I actually do not believe) then it is clear that he did not want Elia raped or cruelly murdered. It happened anyway, but we could not say that it happened on Tywin's orders.

The same would be true for Astapor situation if some of Dany's men raped and killed some women or killed some men not fitting the criteria of those that were to be killed.

Just because somebody doesn't tell you to not kill or spare somebody or a group of people in a battle doesn't mean he or she wants you to kill them. Especially not if he or she gives you a specific command who to kill.

[SeanF]

That's fair enough.  I'd add that teenage boys in this world are soldiers, overseers, etc.

The Tokar wearers who are not Good Masters I would take to be their lawyers/accountants/managers etc.  They are very culpable.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

That's fair enough.  I'd add that teenage boys in this world are soldiers, overseers, etc.

I'd expect that the tokar was a gown - like the toga virilis - that only grown men wore in this society, meaning that the command to kill tokar-wearers already targeted essentially only adults by the standards of Martinworld (we have no idea when a Ghiscari boy comes of age).

The command to spare the children under twelve was a specific command to make it clear who Dany definitely wanted to be spared - presumably because she wanted to make it clear that even rich children of tokar-wearing parents shouldn't be killed. That would be something that was important especially for the slaves the Unsullied would free to understand - most of the killing in Astapor and Meereen seems to have been done by the uprising slaves themselves, avenging themselves on the slavers - as it should be and would be expected in this setting - not Dany's Unsullied/troops. In ADwD we get some aftermath on that in the court session in Dany's first chapter.

But you cannot construct from that she wanted everybody else to be killed since she actually points out in detail who she wants to see dead. And that is a very specific group of people.

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

The Tokar wearers who are not Good Masters I would take to be their lawyers/accountants/managers etc.  They are very culpable.

I think there might be a difference between the Good Masters as the ruling body/collective that effectively runs and own Astapor and the class of the slave owners which might be larger than this small body. One imagines that all rich people wear tokars.

I rather expect that the middle class guys who don't have tokar-level wealth would be the guys with the whips - which could be another lesser symbol of power and authority in such a slaver city, meaning you are the kind of guy who can give some slave on the street a lashing because he is a master, etc.

But it might be that those fellows are then also merely paid overseers and such, like the few soldiers in the employ of the Astapori.

[SeanF]

I certainly don't see Tokar wearers as artisans, shopkeepers, free servants etc.  I think they are very much elite.  

 

 

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If this were true (which I actually do not believe) then it is clear that he did not want Elia raped or cruelly murdered. It happened anyway, but we could not say that it happened on Tywin's orders.

I generally agree with most of what you're saying here, but I think this is my biggest issue. I'd say that, when going into a war-zone, the people you specifically want to be spared need to be mentioned. With no explicit orders, people generally have free rein in battle. I'd say not mentioning someone means you don't care what happens to them, rather than that you want them spared.

Which is why I believe Tywin when he says he simply didn't mention Elia. Because the blame lies on him just as much, regardless. Just that he's guilty by omission rather than malice, which scarcely paints him in a better light (and I've never had the impression that he cares much what Tyrion thinks of him).

 

However, to the crux of the topic, I don't think we know enough about the tokar to say whether this:

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There are quite a few people who claim Daenerys had her Dothraki and the Unsullied butcher innocent people over the age of twelve. But this actually factually incorrect when you read the text.

is true.

Simply because we don't know whether or not non-slavers wear tokars. Here's some of what we do know:

All wrapped themselves in tokars, a garment permitted only to freeborn men of Astapor. 

So, no slaves can wear tokars. But that doesn't discount other wealthy people who don't participate in the slave trade.

It was the fringe on the tokar that proclaimed a man's status, Dany had been told by Captain Groleo. In this cool green room atop the pyramid, two of the slavers wore tokars fringed in silver, five had gold fringes, and one, the oldest Grazdan, displayed a fringe of fat white pearls that clacked together softly when he shifted in his seat or moved an arm.

Aggo sat calmly notching arrows to his bowstring and sending them at tokars. Silver, gold, or plain, he cared nothing for the fringe.

Fringes that are plain must be the lowest status, and none of these were at the meeting with Daenerys.

This is, however, all we know of Astapori tokars. Elsewhere, things may be different, we don't know. In Meereen:

Rhaegal had snapped at Irri, and Viserion had set Reznak's tokar ablaze the last time the seneschal had called. 

Reznak wears a tokar. Now, of course, he's nobility. But did he own any slaves? Did his house make and buy slaves? I don't think we know the answer to this. I seem to recall that Reznak had a similar role before Daenerys arrived (though admittedly, I'm not certain about this) and he's essentially a servant. A noble servant, yes, but a servant nonetheless. Yet he wears a tokar.

There's more, of course, but it seems to me that a tokar is a display of wealth and power, though not necessarily anything to do with slavery (well, other than the obvious connection that Old Ghis and the current Ghiscari are wealthy in large part due to the slave trade). All it certainly signifies is that one is wealthy, and that their work doesn't require both hands:

Even wound properly, the tokar required its wearer to hold it in place with the left hand. Walking in a tokar demanded small, mincing steps and exquisite balance, lest one tread upon those heavy trailing fringes. It was not a garment meant for any man who had to work.

Theoretically, anyone who has workers doing the majority of their business could wear a tokar. Even if they owned no slaves.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd expect that the tokar was a gown - like the toga virilis - that only grown men wore in this society, meaning that the command to kill tokar-wearers already targeted essentially only adults by the standards of Martinworld (we have no idea when a Ghiscari boy comes of age).

Not in Meereen, at least:

A boy came, younger than Dany, slight and scarred, dressed up in a frayed grey tokar trailing silver fringe. His voice broke when he told of how two of his father's household slaves had risen up the night the gate broke.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I certainly don't see Tokar wearers as artisans, shopkeepers, free servants etc.  I think they are very much elite.  

Maybe. You do have Zahrina, the proprietor of the Purple Lotus (a sketchy winesink, where Quentyn meets the Tattered Prince), who wears a tokar. Though, she is a slaver too. She provides cheap slaves to die against better fighters in the pits, puts on slave fights at her Purple Lotus, and was at the auction where Tyrion was sold. She would always bid one higher than the last bid (which implies she's not super wealthy, or just that she's very cheap). Either way, she works her business herself, and she's never given a surname, so she could very well be common. But she could very well not be noble.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But even there it is quite clear that the Unsullied could have stood with their Good Masters if they had wanted to. Yes, they had concluded the bargain, but Dany betrayed it when she struck Kraznys mo Nakloz with the whip, taking back Drogo and telling him to burn Kraznys.

Mmm, I'm not so certain. She didn't so much betray the deal, just that her first order to her newly purchased slaves was for them to kill their old masters and take back her payment. The Unsullied don't judge, and they don't disobey.

"If I did resell them, how would I know they could not be used against me?" Dany asked pointedly. "Would they do that? Fight against me, even do me harm?"

"If their master commanded. They do not question, Your Grace. All the questions have been culled from them. They obey." She looked troubled. "When you are . . . when you are done with them . . . Your Grace might command them to fall upon their swords."

The deal was finished, the Unsullied belonged to Daenerys. The only reason this hasn't happened before is that most buyers of Unsullied want more being made, and that the purchase of all of the Unsullied in Astapor was unprecedented.

 

Anyway, I'd say that tokars probably are worn by those who own no slaves. Though it's entirely possible that anyone who is in a position to wear a tokar (don't need both hands to work, has others to work for them, etc.) owns slaves, as they're the cheapest source of labour. It's possible that the only people wearing a tokar that don't own slaves are those who find it immoral, but to date, I don't recall seeing any among the Ghiscari have that belief, outside of those who are enslaved. Such people probably exist, but would be few and far between.

Regardless, in any sack, there's going to be collateral damage. It's just the way it is. Was it worthwhile this time? Perhaps.

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd expect that the tokar was a gown - like the toga virilis - that only grown men wore in this society, meaning that the command to kill tokar-wearers already targeted essentially only adults by the standards of Martinworld (we have no idea when a Ghiscari boy comes of age).

The command to spare the children under twelve was a specific command to make it clear who Dany definitely wanted to be spared - presumably because she wanted to make it clear that even rich children of tokar-wearing parents shouldn't be killed. That would be something that was important especially for the slaves the Unsullied would free to understand - most of the killing in Astapor and Meereen seems to have been done by the uprising slaves themselves, avenging themselves on the slavers - as it should be and would be expected in this setting - not Dany's Unsullied/troops. In ADwD we get some aftermath on that in the court session in Dany's first chapter.

But you cannot construct from that she wanted everybody else to be killed since she actually points out in detail who she wants to see dead. And that is a very specific group of people.

I think there might be a difference between the Good Masters as the ruling body/collective that effectively runs and own Astapor and the class of the slave owners which might be larger than this small body. One imagines that all rich people wear tokars.

I rather expect that the middle class guys who don't have tokar-level wealth would be the guys with the whips - which could be another lesser symbol of power and authority in such a slaver city, meaning you are the kind of guy who can give some slave on the street a lashing because he is a master, etc.

But it might be that those fellows are then also merely paid overseers and such, like the few soldiers in the employ of the Astapori.

Yes, I think Martin specifically compared the tokar to the toga.  In theory , any Roman citizen could wear a toga, and indeed, had to wear one if he went to vote.  In practice, only wealthy citizens, or those who voted (who tended to be the wealthy or those poor who were being paid for their votes) would do so.  Senators and knights were distinguished by purple bands on their togas, but even someone wearing a plain white toga was likely to be one of the First Class (the non-noble elite).

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

1. There is a specification as to who is to be killed, namely the Good Master (who the Unsullied must have known very well and who were easily identifiable), their soldiers (who they may have known even better and who would have also been identifiable by their weapons and clothes/armor/whatever they wore), and all the men wearing a tokar and holding a whip (garments which would mark them as members of the ruling slaver class.

Absolutely, we can't forget that while Dany may not be familiar with who is or isn't a slaver, the slaves certainly would be. 

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany's Dothraki seem to take her commands very seriously - and the Unsullied are famed for obeying their commands to the letter. Chances that they decided to also arbitrarily kill men not fitting the criteria of the people that were supposed to be killed or that they decided to also target women (who Dany never mentioned) or children who seemed to be them to be 13-16 or so are not exactly very high. Dany's people are not Tywin's dogs.

Agreed. There is zero chance the Unsullied took it upon themselves to make any decisions, especially at this point in the game. It could be argued, that over time, the Unsullied may use their on discretion when carrying out their orders (much later) but even this is only a slight possibility IMO. Only the most head strong of them would be able to overcome their indoctrination & none would be able to at this point, only very recently freed. 

5 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I generally agree with most of what you're saying here, but I think this is my biggest issue. I'd say that, when going into a war-zone, the people you specifically want to be spared need to be mentioned. With no explicit orders, people generally have free rein in battle. I'd say not mentioning someone means you don't care what happens to them, rather than that you want them spared.

Which is why I believe Tywin when he says he simply didn't mention Elia. Because the blame lies on him just as much, regardless. Just that he's guilty by omission rather than malice, which scarcely paints him in a better light (and I've never had the impression that he cares much what Tyrion thinks of him).

I agree to a point but also I don't think it would be common practice to be given specific orders in regards to each & every person they may come across. I agree there would be some free reign in battle but this isn't a battle we are talking about, this is Gregor against Elia & children. 

5 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Simply because we don't know whether or not non-slavers wear tokars. Here's some of what we do know:

All wrapped themselves in tokars, a garment permitted only to freeborn men of Astapor. 

So, no slaves can wear tokars. But that doesn't discount other wealthy people who don't participate in the slave trade.

I think it's pretty safe to say, in a city build upon the slave trade, that the wealthy are part of that. How else would they have become wealthy? 

5 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

There's more, of course, but it seems to me that a tokar is a display of wealth and power, though not necessarily anything to do with slavery (well, other than the obvious connection that Old Ghis and the current Ghiscari are wealthy in large part due to the slave trade). All it certainly signifies is that one is wealthy, and that their work doesn't require both hands:

Again, I think the main way for someone to become wealthy within a city built upon the slave trade would be by dealing within that slave trade in some form or another. Even if they held no slaves (which I think is highly unlikely) the goods they sold would have been made by slaves, delivered by slaves, etc. The entire structure is built upon the slave trade & while anything is possible & there are always exceptions to the rule, I think it's pretty unlikely to find a member of the elite class that didn't participate in some manner in that trade. 

5 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Anyway, I'd say that tokars probably are worn by those who own no slaves. Though it's entirely possible that anyone who is in a position to wear a tokar (don't need both hands to work, has others to work for them, etc.) owns slaves, as they're the cheapest source of labour. It's possible that the only people wearing a tokar that don't own slaves are those who find it immoral, but to date, I don't recall seeing any among the Ghiscari have that belief, outside of those who are enslaved. Such people probably exist, but would be few and far between.

Regardless, in any sack, there's going to be collateral damage. It's just the way it is. Was it worthwhile this time? Perhaps.

I would argue that if someone wearing a tokar indicates they don't use their own hands to work & that they are wealthy that in itself would almost guarantee they are slave owners. Someone had to work to get them wealthy right? 

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I generally agree with most of what you're saying here, but I think this is my biggest issue. I'd say that, when going into a war-zone, the people you specifically want to be spared need to be mentioned. With no explicit orders, people generally have free rein in battle. I'd say not mentioning someone means you don't care what happens to them, rather than that you want them spared.

But here we are talking about Unsullied - very disciplined men who neither rape nor kill unless told to do so - and the a couple of Dothraki who worship Daenerys. There is going to be some real butchery, of course, but very little by comparison (the Unsullied are powerful enough to kill essentially everyone) and most of that that happened would likely be done by the freed slaves avenging themselves or by the general chaos that broke out during the fighting (as it later did in Meereen).

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Which is why I believe Tywin when he says he simply didn't mention Elia. Because the blame lies on him just as much, regardless. Just that he's guilty by omission rather than malice, which scarcely paints him in a better light (and I've never had the impression that he cares much what Tyrion thinks of him).

Well, I don't buy that he didn't mention Elia nor do I think Tywin ever bothered to point out groups of people that would be spared ... although he would have told anyone that he is going to have people die the most horrible of deaths (along with their entire families) if they ever harm Jaime, no matter what he does. Because technically there was a chance that Jaime would have decided to stand with his king against the Westermen, defending him until his last breath rather than abandoning or betraying him. Tywin would not permit the killing of Jaime even if piled up heap of corpses of Westermen in defence of Aerys II.

My point with Dany is mainly that she didn't say they that all children above 12 can be killed - as some people like to construe this. She is of course responsible for all the killing that took place, but she didn't command a slaughter. She specifically wanted the ruling class, their soldiers, and other oppressors dead.

She never mentioned women anywhere ... and we do know that the women of Meereen and Astapor survived for the most part.

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

However, to the crux of the topic, I don't think we know enough about the tokar to say whether this:

is true.

Simply because we don't know whether or not non-slavers wear tokars. Here's some of what we do know:

All wrapped themselves in tokars, a garment permitted only to freeborn men of Astapor. 

So, no slaves can wear tokars. But that doesn't discount other wealthy people who don't participate in the slave trade.

It was the fringe on the tokar that proclaimed a man's status, Dany had been told by Captain Groleo. In this cool green room atop the pyramid, two of the slavers wore tokars fringed in silver, five had gold fringes, and one, the oldest Grazdan, displayed a fringe of fat white pearls that clacked together softly when he shifted in his seat or moved an arm.

Aggo sat calmly notching arrows to his bowstring and sending them at tokars. Silver, gold, or plain, he cared nothing for the fringe.

Fringes that are plain must be the lowest status, and none of these were at the meeting with Daenerys.

We don't know enough, but we can be pretty comfortable that anyone wearing a tokar in a Ghiscari city does at least own one slave. Even in Volantis - where the ratio of slaves-freemen is 5:1 - we can assume that pretty much any free person either owns slaves or profits in some fashion from the slaves owned by the state (the tiger soldier slaves would belong to the state, and it stands to reason that this also goes for the garbage slaves, etc.). In that sense it is pretty much impossible that anyone in Slaver's Bay who is free is not a participant in the slavery thing - because it also stands to reason that most manual labor (and as well a lot of accounting, etc.) is done by slaves in such a society.

The idea that a society as such as the one in Slaver's Bay allows for free workers is not very likely - we see hints of that in the weaver women that come up in the Meereen plot. Manual labor is slave labor.

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

This is, however, all we know of Astapori tokars. Elsewhere, things may be different, we don't know. In Meereen:

Rhaegal had snapped at Irri, and Viserion had set Reznak's tokar ablaze the last time the seneschal had called. 

Reznak wears a tokar. Now, of course, he's nobility. But did he own any slaves? Did his house make and buy slaves? I don't think we know the answer to this. I seem to recall that Reznak had a similar role before Daenerys arrived (though admittedly, I'm not certain about this) and he's essentially a servant. A noble servant, yes, but a servant nonetheless. Yet he wears a tokar.

Reznak mo Reznak belongs to a noble house. There is nothing about him being a seneschal before - and this wouldn't make sense, considering there was no royal court at Meereen before Dany arrived. But subservient to another noble - like Ned is to Robert in Westeros, or Rodrik Cassel to Ned - wouldn't make Reznak a servant.

Any person of wealth and education enough to end up as part of Dany's court would have owned slaves in a city like Meereen.

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

A boy came, younger than Dany, slight and scarred, dressed up in a frayed grey tokar trailing silver fringe. His voice broke when he told of how two of his father's household slaves had risen up the night the gate broke.

This is an interesting case, and possibly one that might challenge the idea that a tokar is the gown of a grown person. But then - we don't know when you come of age in Ghiscar (George and Lisa Tuttle have the people of Windhaven come of age at thirteen). Could be that this boy was of age and still younger than Daenerys.

But I'd rather assume he clothed himself in the remnants of his father's or mother's or some other family tokar (hence it being frayed, indicating it may have been damaged during the fighting) as to make as good an impression before the queen as he could. The tokar is very important in Ghiscari society which is the reason why they push Dany to wear so she would be taken seriously. If you want to be seen as the head of your house and a man in your own right you would wear it even if you were not legally old enough to do so.

7 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Mmm, I'm not so certain. She didn't so much betray the deal, just that her first order to her newly purchased slaves was for them to kill their old masters and take back her payment. The Unsullied don't judge, and they don't disobey.

"If I did resell them, how would I know they could not be used against me?" Dany asked pointedly. "Would they do that? Fight against me, even do me harm?"

"If their master commanded. They do not question, Your Grace. All the questions have been culled from them. They obey." She looked troubled. "When you are . . . when you are done with them . . . Your Grace might command them to fall upon their swords."

The deal was finished, the Unsullied belonged to Daenerys. The only reason this hasn't happened before is that most buyers of Unsullied want more being made, and that the purchase of all of the Unsullied in Astapor was unprecedented.

There is a symbolic exchange of dragon and whip concluding the trade, yes. But then the Good Masters are immediately betrayed. Drogon doesn't want to go with them and is used as a weapon against them. This is like you and I making a deal where I feed you a poisoned apple. It doesn't make sense that anyone witnessing that I just poisoned you would consider this a fair deal.

The Unsullied stay aside when the slaughtering begins but the point where they intervene is when Dany throws aside the whip that is the symbol of her control over them - the symbol of them being slaves who are owned by her - and cries out 'Freedom'. That's when they move, and that's also the moment that marks the end of their slavery.

Yes, the Unsullied are very much conditioned, but we know they are individuals still and do understand that slavery and their Unsullied training and everything that comes with them suck. Else they would have later insisted that they remain slaves and proper Unsullied - which they did not.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Yes, I think Martin specifically compared the tokar to the toga.  In theory , any Roman citizen could wear a toga, and indeed, had to wear one if he went to vote.  In practice, only wealthy citizens, or those who voted (who tended to be the wealthy or those poor who were being paid for their votes) would do so.  Senators and knights were distinguished by purple bands on their togas, but even someone wearing a plain white toga was likely to be one of the First Class (the non-noble elite).

Yeah, more or less that. The difference between Rome and the Ghiscari cities is that the slavery is much more prevalent there than even in Rome. In Rome you do have various classes of people - but especially Astapor and Yunkai's only trade is slavery. There must be so many slaves there that no free Ghiscari needs to work himself. Sure, the lower classes would only get the best slaves (they would go to the wealthy and for the training to become the special slaves the various cities sell) but they would get some. And even outside the cities the olive groves and all that would be tended by slaves and so on.

There certainly are some Ghiscari working for other Ghiscari in some fashion (like Nurse) but this doesn't mean he doesn't have his own slaves back in his own house in Yunkai - or in whatever apartments he has on Yezzan's property.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree to a point but also I don't think it would be common practice to be given specific orders in regards to each & every person they may come across. I agree there would be some free reign in battle but this isn't a battle we are talking about, this is Gregor against Elia & children. 

Oh, the battle I was referring to was the Sack of Astapor. But no, it wouldn't be common practice to give that many orders to so many people, it's simply impractical. You just have to expect some collateral damage, and specifically mention those you want alive.

In a situation like the one with Gregor and Elia, however, I think it probable that they would be given specific orders. If you're sending someone to butcher a family, and you specifically want one of them alive, omitting them is not enough. All that implies to me is that they're of so little import to the one giving the order that they're not going to care what is done to them. Hence, Tywin is still fully responsible for what happened, which makes his "defense" that he simply didn't mention her so ridiculous that I think it must be true. It's either true, or a completely pointless lie told to someone Tywin doesn't care enough about to lie to.

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think it's pretty safe to say, in a city build upon the slave trade, that the wealthy are part of that. How else would they have become wealthy?

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Again, I think the main way for someone to become wealthy within a city built upon the slave trade would be by dealing within that slave trade in some form or another.

Sure, the main way. But not necessarily the only way. Someone is running fancy taverns in the wealthier districts, certainly, which wouldn't require slaves (wouldn't preclude the use of them either). They might have slaves working there, but maybe not. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were businesses that advertised themselves as a "freeborn only" business, so that the rich can fop about saying that everything they're wearing was untouched by filthy slaves.

Anyway, I'm not certain it's entirely fair to say that everyone wealthy in Astapor is a slaver. At least by trade. The vast, vast majority of the wealthy among the Astapori would keep slaves at home, for sure.

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I would argue that if someone wearing a tokar indicates they don't use their own hands to work & that they are wealthy that in itself would almost guarantee they are slave owners. Someone had to work to get them wealthy right? 

Well, there's a difference between 'not using your own hands to work' and 'only doing work that requires one hand'. Manual labour is right out, but some light scribe work wouldn't necessitate two hands. Management stuff. But non-elite freeborn men exist in Astapor, and they'll need management too.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But here we are talking about Unsullied - very disciplined men who neither rape nor kill unless told to do so - and the a couple of Dothraki who worship Daenerys.

Sure, but when the Unsullied come across someone they weren't specifically given an order about, what do they do? Just spare them? They could be dangerous, ignoring them could be deadly. Taking the time to deal with them non-lethally might be too time consuming and prevent them from being as efficient as possible (which is, presumably, what all Unsullied owners want). I cannot imagine that the default behaviour (which would have been taught to them by the Astapori) when encountering such an unknown is be gentle. I'd think that if it could be dangerous at all, the Unsullied will simply kill it and move on.

They'll definitely follow any order to spare specific types of people, however, which really sets them apart from any other sacking army.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

although he would have told anyone that he is going to have people die the most horrible of deaths (along with their entire families) if they ever harm Jaime, no matter what he does. Because technically there was a chance that Jaime would have decided to stand with his king against the Westermen, defending him until his last breath rather than abandoning or betraying him. Tywin would not permit the killing of Jaime even if piled up heap of corpses of Westermen in defence of Aerys II.

Certainly. I imagine his one order was to get Jaime away from Aerys, alive. Other than that, do as you please. The business with the Royal Grandchildren will have been an afterthought, I'd think.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My point with Dany is mainly that she didn't say they that all children above 12 can be killed - as some people like to construe this. She is of course responsible for all the killing that took place, but she didn't command a slaughter. She specifically wanted the ruling class, their soldiers, and other oppressors dead.

Oh, for sure, I do think Daenerys's orders were fine, I should probably say that. She went as far as she could to prevent collateral damage. She could have just unleashed them on the city.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even in Volantis - where the ratio of slaves-freemen is 5:1 - we can assume that pretty much any free person either owns slaves or profits in some fashion from the slaves owned by the state

Even with that ratio, though, not all of the 1/6 are the wealthy elite. There will be many, many among that 1/6 who own more than five slaves, too, so I'd think it unlikely that the huge majority of freeborn Volantines own a slave.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In that sense it is pretty much impossible that anyone in Slaver's Bay who is free is not a participant in the slavery thing - because it also stands to reason that most manual labor (and as well a lot of accounting, etc.) is done by slaves in such a society.

Well, sure, but you could then say that about everyone who trades with any slaver city. It's fair enough I suppose, and you can't really argue it, but it's not the same thing. You could push that to say that the Braavosi participate in the slave trade, as they trade with the Seven Kingdoms, who trade with the Slaver Cities (do the Braavosi trade directly with the other Free Cities? I know the Iron Bank lends to them). It seems an unfair judgement, to me.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that a society as such as the one in Slaver's Bay allows for free workers is not very likely - we see hints of that in the weaver women that come up in the Meereen plot. Manual labor is slave labor.

What do all the free people do, then? I can't imagine it's just slaves and the rich elite, there must be a sizable amount of freeborn men in these cities. These people need jobs. Maybe all manual labour is outsourced to slaves, and the running of such businesses is all that is left to freeborn men, but that implies a worse ratio than the one we hear for Volantis, which is specifically mentioned because it's weighted so highly towards the slaves.

Well, come to think on it, soldiers are all free, aren't they? Well, not the slave soldiers, obviously, but there's an amount of freeborn soldiers.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Any person of wealth and education enough to end up as part of Dany's court would have owned slaves in a city like Meereen.

Maybe, but if there were any slaveless tokar wearers, surely Daenerys would prefer them, which might explain Reznak (seriously, all he does is flatter, flatter, flatter. If he was anything like this before Daenerys came, it's likely he served rather than being served).

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is an interesting case, and possibly one that might challenge the idea that a tokar is the gown of a grown person. But then - we don't know when you come of age in Ghiscar (George and Lisa Tuttle have the people of Windhaven come of age at thirteen). Could be that this boy was of age and still younger than Daenerys.

Sure. She calls him a boy though, which implies he's a child. Though, obviously this is just her perspective.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But I'd rather assume he clothed himself in the remnants of his father's or mother's or some other family tokar (hence it being frayed, indicating it may have been damaged during the fighting) as to make as good an impression before the queen as he could.

Ah. I imagined that he was wearing the same thing he was wearing during the sack, when he was forced out of his home. It's frayed because he's been living and sleeping in it for the past... however long. It seems to have been a little while from sack to meeting:

Her Unsullied had finally restored order, but the sack left a plague of problems in its wake.

Finally can mean a great many things, but I don't imagine it was the next day. Regardless, I don't imagine he was able to take a lot of clothing when he fled, nor was there anywhere he could go to get more clothing (certainly not a tokar), and he definitely couldn't go home.

He might just have been of age, though, you're right.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is a symbolic exchange of dragon and whip concluding the trade, yes. But then the Good Masters are immediately betrayed. Drogon doesn't want to go with them and is used as a weapon against them. This is like you and I making a deal where I feed you a poisoned apple. It doesn't make sense that anyone witnessing that I just poisoned you would consider this a fair deal.

They wanted a dragon, they got a dragon. It's not Daenerys's fault they can't control it. She killed them and took it back, but the deal was finished. Drogon was false gold, sure, but it is what they wanted. Just because you didn't tell me that the apple was poisoned, that doesn't mean I didn't want the apple. It's not fair, true, but it was the deal. Caveat Emptor.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Unsullied stay aside when the slaughtering begins but the point where they intervene is when Dany throws aside the whip that is the symbol of her control over them - the symbol of them being slaves who are owned by her - and cries out 'Freedom'. That's when they move, and that's also the moment that marks the end of their slavery.

They don't move because they haven't been ordered to move. I'd say that if they wanted to help Daenerys, they would have acted sooner. It seems to me that they simply acted as they were ordered by their master, because that's all they know. This is the first thing she says to them:

She stood in her stirrups and raised the harpy's fingers above her head for all the Unsullied to see. "IT IS DONE!" she cried at the top of her lungs. "YOU ARE MINE!" She gave the mare her heels and galloped along the first rank, holding the fingers high. "YOU ARE THE DRAGON'S NOW! YOU'RE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR! IT IS DONE! IT IS DONE!"

The next is the orders:

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see." She raised the harpy's fingers in the air . . . and then she flung the scourge aside. "Freedom!" she sang out. "Dracarys! Dracarys!"

Not acting before that is exactly what they should have done, in their role as slaves. They're behaving as is expected of them, as they've been trained to do. I don't think there's anything more to it.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, the Unsullied are very much conditioned, but we know they are individuals still and do understand that slavery and their Unsullied training and everything that comes with them suck. Else they would have later insisted that they remain slaves and proper Unsullied - which they did not.

They were clearly told that they now belong to Daenerys, and all of their former masters were there, not disputing it. It's fair to say that they belonged to Daenerys, then. They were probably thrilled about it, best orders ever, but they still acted the perfect Unsullied.

Here's the full passage, anyway, for posterity (I see nothing here to think they're not acting as Unsullied):

Dany turned the whip in her hand. Such a light thing, to bear such weight. "Is it done, then? Do they belong to me?"

"It is done," he agreed, giving the chain a sharp pull to bring Drogon down from the litter.

Dany mounted her silver. She could feel her heart thumping in her chest. She felt desperately afraid. Was this what my brother would have done? She wondered if Prince Rhaegar had been this anxious when he saw the Usurper's host formed up across the Trident with all their banners floating on the wind.

She stood in her stirrups and raised the harpy's fingers above her head for all the Unsullied to see. "IT IS DONE!" she cried at the top of her lungs. "YOU ARE MINE!" She gave the mare her heels and galloped along the first rank, holding the fingers high. "YOU ARE THE DRAGON'S NOW! YOU'RE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR! IT IS DONE! IT IS DONE!"

She glimpsed old Grazdan turn his grey head sharply. He hears me speak Valyrian. The other slavers were not listening. They crowded around Kraznys and the dragon, shouting advice. Though the Astapori yanked and tugged, Drogon would not budge off the litter. Smoke rose grey from his open jaws, and his long neck curled and straightened as he snapped at the slaver's face.

It is time to cross the Trident, Dany thought, as she wheeled and rode her silver back. Her bloodriders moved in close around her. "You are in difficulty," she observed.

"He will not come," Kraznys said.

"There is a reason. A dragon is no slave." And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver's face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy's fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. "Drogon," she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. "Dracarys."

The black dragon spread his wings and roared.

A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head. The sudden stench of charred meat overwhelmed even his perfume, and his wail seemed to drown all other sound.

Then the Plaza of Punishment blew apart into blood and chaos. The Good Masters were shrieking, stumbling, shoving one another aside and tripping over the fringes of their tokars in their haste. Drogon flew almost lazily at Kraznys, black wings beating. As he gave the slaver another taste of fire, Irri and Jhiqui unchained Viserion and Rhaegal, and suddenly there were three dragons in the air. When Dany turned to look, a third of Astapor's proud demon-horned warriors were fighting to stay atop their terrified mounts, and another third were fleeing in a bright blaze of shiny copper. One man kept his saddle long enough to draw a sword, but Jhogo's whip coiled about his neck and cut off his shout. Another lost a hand to Rakharo's arakh and rode off reeling and spurting blood. Aggo sat calmly notching arrows to his bowstring and sending them at tokars. Silver, gold, or plain, he cared nothing for the fringe. Strong Belwas had his arakh out as well, and he spun it as he charged.

"Spears!" Dany heard one Astapori shout. It was Grazdan, old Grazdan in his tokar heavy with pearls. "Unsullied! Defend us, stop them, defend your masters! Spears! Swords!"

When Rakharo put an arrow through his mouth, the slaves holding his sedan chair broke and ran, dumping him unceremoniously on the ground. The old man crawled to the first rank of eunuchs, his blood pooling on the bricks. The Unsullied did not so much as look down to watch him die. Rank on rank on rank, they stood.

And did not move. The gods have heard my prayer.

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see." She raised the harpy's fingers in the air . . . and then she flung the scourge aside. "Freedom!" she sang out. "Dracarys! Dracarys!"

"Dracarys!" they shouted back, the sweetest word she'd ever heard. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire.

[Lord Varys]

51 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Sure, but when the Unsullied come across someone they weren't specifically given an order about, what do they do? Just spare them? They could be dangerous, ignoring them could be deadly. Taking the time to deal with them non-lethally might be too time consuming and prevent them from being as efficient as possible (which is, presumably, what all Unsullied owners want). I cannot imagine that the default behaviour (which would have been taught to them by the Astapori) when encountering such an unknown is be gentle. I'd think that if it could be dangerous at all, the Unsullied will simply kill it and move on.

I'd expect them to neutralize both the threats/targets/combatants Dany mentioned in her order and also those who threaten them or their allies directly. I don't expect them to hunt down and kill everybody Ghiscari (ally) they can find who are throwing away their weapons and run away.

And I think we got more or less implicit confirmation for that since there were even Good Masters who survived the sacking of Astapor despite Dany's command - after all, the council Dany left in charge supposedly tried to restore them to power. Which wouldn't have worked if they had all been killed.

51 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Certainly. I imagine his one order was to get Jaime away from Aerys, alive. Other than that, do as you please. The business with the Royal Grandchildren will have been an afterthought, I'd think.

No, Gregor and Lorch definitely got a mission of their own. They were to take Maegor's as quickly as possible and were apparently doing that around the time or shortly after Jaime had killed Aerys II in the throne room. I'm sure trying to convince Jaime to abandon the king would have been part of Tywin's Jaime orders, but another would also have been to not harm him under any circumstances if he refused to do just that.

51 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Oh, for sure, I do think Daenerys's orders were fine, I should probably say that. She went as far as she could to prevent collateral damage. She could have just unleashed them on the city.

Yeah, and that's basically the only/main point of this thread.

51 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Even with that ratio, though, not all of the 1/6 are the wealthy elite. There will be many, many among that 1/6 who own more than five slaves, too, so I'd think it unlikely that the huge majority of freeborn Volantines own a slave.

There might be many people in Volantis who don't own slaves - slaves who have been freed, for instance, like the Widow of the Waterfront, or foreigners who mainly dwell west of the Rhoyne (Jorah and Tyrion and Victarion who visit Volantis don't own slaves, and neither do Quentyn and his gang who lived there quite some time) but I'd be very surprised if there were many freeborn Volantenes who didn't own slaves - at least during some portion of their lives. Whatever you do there - once your business is prosperous enough so you can afford one slave you likely buy one. And when things go bad then you just sell him or her.

51 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Well, sure, but you could then say that about everyone who trades with any slaver city. It's fair enough I suppose, and you can't really argue it, but it's not the same thing. You could push that to say that the Braavosi participate in the slave trade, as they trade with the Seven Kingdoms, who trade with the Slaver Cities (do the Braavosi trade directly with the other Free Cities? I know the Iron Bank lends to them). It seems an unfair judgement, to me.

Trading with slaver (cities) would be a lesser evil. I mean, if we talk about Astapor we basically talk about a concentration camp setting. You cannot live and work there and pretend you are innocent or have nothing to do with what's going on - whereas in Volantis (on the western shore) or in Myr you can, perhaps, live without actually seeing how bad the slaves are treated in certain places. And you wouldn't have those cruel slave training facilities there, either.

If you think what they do to the people they make their Unsullied we can but wonder how many dead slaves equal one successful Unsullied. 10, 20, it is difficult to guess. There is a pretty big difference between the cruelty of slavery in the Ghiscari cities and in Volantis and the Three Daughters (the latter seem to be approaching a Rome-like society, especially with what we learned about the society of Lys in FaB). But the Ghiscari cities are just monstrous meat grinders and slaughter houses, basically.

51 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

What do all the free people do, then? I can't imagine it's just slaves and the rich elite, there must be a sizable amount of freeborn men in these cities. These people need jobs. Maybe all manual labour is outsourced to slaves, and the running of such businesses is all that is left to freeborn men, but that implies a worse ratio than the one we hear for Volantis, which is specifically mentioned because it's weighted so highly towards the slaves.

Meereen is a little bit better off than the others. They have some sort of 'normal economy' to a point, and their main slavery thing are the fighting pits which don't seem to be as bad as what's done to train the Unsullied in Astapor or, presumably, the sex slaves of Yunkai.

But what we learn especially about Astapor is that the city is pretty much decaying - the bricks crumble, etc., indicating that there are no thriving businesses there. There would be a pretty large rich elite (as is in Yunkai and Meereen, because this slavery thing is a very lucrative business) and little to no need for a middle class. And since this has been going this way for hundreds of years chances are not that bad that pretty much every pure-blood Ghiscari ended up getting some slice of the slavery cake. They seem to exporting their 'goods' to the entire civilized world, from the Jade Sea to Lorath.

51 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Well, come to think on it, soldiers are all free, aren't they? Well, not the slave soldiers, obviously, but there's an amount of freeborn soldiers.

Not sure about the Astapori. Dany doesn't specify. The Yunkai'i and Volantenes have mainly slave soldiers (a standing slave army and navy in the case of Volantis) and the Three Daughters have citizens serving in the army in addition to sellswords and sellsails. They don't seem to be relying on slave soldiers.

But I doubt the Astapori had many soldiers of any kind - and those they were likely more sellswords or perhaps some sort of weird ceremonial relics from the days of the Ghiscari empire.

51 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Maybe, but if there were any slaveless tokar wearers, surely Daenerys would prefer them, which might explain Reznak (seriously, all he does is flatter, flatter, flatter. If he was anything like this before Daenerys came, it's likely he served rather than being served).

Skahaz is the reformist guy. He cut his hair and joined Dany's anti-slavery cause completely. Reznak isn't from as less a noble house as Skahaz and he is chosen specifically for being a liaison to the ancien regime, so to speak. Dany wants to do take conciliatory approach. And later we see that he is at least one half of the brain of Hizdahr (with the Green Grace either being the other half or the person running them both).

51 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Sure. She calls him a boy though, which implies he's a child. Though, obviously this is just her perspective.

Since she doesn't know much about Ghiscari culture even at the end of ADwD we cannot be sure how accurate her assessment there is. But it certainly might be the case that children also wear (a version) of the tokar.

51 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Ah. I imagined that he was wearing the same thing he was wearing during the sack, when he was forced out of his home. It's frayed because he's been living and sleeping in it for the past... however long. It seems to have been a little while from sack to meeting:

Her Unsullied had finally restored order, but the sack left a plague of problems in its wake.

Finally can mean a great many things, but I don't imagine it was the next day. Regardless, I don't imagine he was able to take a lot of clothing when he fled, nor was there anywhere he could go to get more clothing (certainly not a tokar), and he definitely couldn't go home.

He might just have been of age, though, you're right.

That might be. Quite some time past there. Lord Ghael, the envoy from Astapor, arrives back in ASoS but Skahaz and Reznak are only there in ADwD, which means some time must have also passed between the two books.

51 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

They wanted a dragon, they got a dragon. It's not Daenerys's fault they can't control it. She killed them and took it back, but the deal was finished. Drogon was false gold, sure, but it is what they wanted. Just because you didn't tell me that the apple was poisoned, that doesn't mean I didn't want the apple. It's not fair, true, but it was the deal. Caveat Emptor.

They don't move because they haven't been ordered to move. I'd say that if they wanted to help Daenerys, they would have acted sooner. It seems to me that they simply acted as they were ordered by their master, because that's all they know. This is the first thing she says to them:

She stood in her stirrups and raised the harpy's fingers above her head for all the Unsullied to see. "IT IS DONE!" she cried at the top of her lungs. "YOU ARE MINE!" She gave the mare her heels and galloped along the first rank, holding the fingers high. "YOU ARE THE DRAGON'S NOW! YOU'RE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR! IT IS DONE! IT IS DONE!"

The next is the orders:

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see." She raised the harpy's fingers in the air . . . and then she flung the scourge aside. "Freedom!" she sang out. "Dracarys! Dracarys!"

Not acting before that is exactly what they should have done, in their role as slaves. They're behaving as is expected of them, as they've been trained to do. I don't think there's anything more to it.

They were clearly told that they now belong to Daenerys, and all of their former masters were there, not disputing it. It's fair to say that they belonged to Daenerys, then. They were probably thrilled about it, best orders ever, but they still acted the perfect Unsullied.

Well, my point here was essentially that I'd think that the Unsullied certainly must have seen what Dany had done there - that she had betrayed the Good Masters, the people who had made them all into Unsullied. If I were a person who cared about fairness and contracts and all that I'd not watch this betrayal and say 'Well, technically the deal was upheld and only after the transaction was concluded one party betrayed the other.' I'd see this charade as the betrayal that it was - but it seems to me that the Unsullied didn't view it as that.

We later learn that they were not exactly happy with what they were and that they are fiercely loyal to Dany not just because they are Unsullied but because of what she did for them. And I'd say that we can see the first glimpse of that when they turn against the Good Masters.

Dany certainly asks about the whole loyalty thing and such to prepare her plan and gain the confidence to go through with it - but I think the better way to interpret this entire slave uprising thing (which later also get with the Mhysa moment at Yunkai) is that the slaves of all the Ghiscari cities long for freedom. The overwhelming majority of them is not happy with slavery.

This also helps to resolve the thing many people have been described as something of a plot hole - that Dany gets a slave army this easily, etc. But if you actually grant the Unsullied agency in all that - that they longed for such an opportunity to rebel and pay the Good Masters back in their own coin - then it actually makes a lot of sense that they would act the way they did. Their conditioning would have also played a role, of course, but they are not robots.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

.

This also helps to resolve the thing many people have been described as something of a plot hole - that Dany gets a slave army this easily, etc. But if you actually grant the Unsullied agency in all that - that they longed for such an opportunity to rebel and pay the Good Masters back in their own coin - then it actually makes a lot of sense that they would act the way they did. Their conditioning would have also played a role, of course, but they are not robots.

Regarding the breach of contract, my view is more fundamental.  You can't pass good title to what you do not own.  The Good Masters did not own the Unsullied.  They were stolen goods.  By freeing them, Daenerys was restoring stolen goods to their owners.

[Victor Newman]

The tokar is the uniform of the master class among the people of Ghis.  All those who wore it are slave owners.  It was a fair decision to get rid of these folks.  There is also a strategic side to this decision.  Like a lot of things this young heroine does.  She took out all of those who could command slaves to fight back.  I am sure the last thing she wanted was pursuit on her way out of the city.  It's a much kinder way to deal with the guilty than let's say Tywin, Hoster, and Aerys would have.  Tywin took out the Reynes, Hoster destroyed the Goodbrooks, and Aerys nearly wiped the Darklyns from the face of Westeros. 

[Darth Sidious]

Staying in Astapor was not really an option.  They needed to find a city with strong walls to shelter in.  Going back to the Dothraki Sea is suicide.  Astapor is not a good city to defend against the slaver masters and their hired armies.  Sailing to Westeros, even if they had enough ships, is also suicide.  The dragons are still young and their numbers are not enough.  

12 hours ago, Victor Newman said:

The tokar is the uniform of the master class among the people of Ghis.  All those who wore it are slave owners.  It was a fair decision to get rid of these folks.  There is also a strategic side to this decision.  Like a lot of things this young heroine does.  She took out all of those who could command slaves to fight back.  I am sure the last thing she wanted was pursuit on her way out of the city.  It's a much kinder way to deal with the guilty than let's say Tywin, Hoster, and Aerys would have.  Tywin took out the Reynes, Hoster destroyed the Goodbrooks, and Aerys nearly wiped the Darklyns from the face of Westeros. 

Agree.  It wasn't punishment.  It was threat removal.  Tywin and Aerys are not interested in the slave trade.  Not in ending it.  They are not making the effort unless there was big profit in it for them.  It's not in their radar.  

[Darth Sidious]

The Unsullied are not really robots.  They have had their spirit broken but the human will remain intact.  They have no love for their masters.  They obey because they have been conditioned to.  It only took the Khaleesi throwing the switch to make them break from the conditioning.  Now the question, can a warged person break out from the spell?  Warging is not a permanent control and must be maintained like a wrestling hold.  

[sweetsunray]

I have little to no issue with the people she killed.

I think she should have commanded anyone of 16 and younger should be spared, as that is the cut off age of becoming an adult in their world. But I get where she got the age of 12: that's her own age at the Lhazareen village when she first started to realize that selling people into slavery was morally wrong.

The sole issue I have with Dany's decisions at Astapor was that she took all of the Unsullied with her, thereby leaving the city completely defenseless. Shit went bad quickly and from bad to worse and eventually hell due to the city having no trained defenders anymore, especially when neighbouring Yunkai got to keep their "good masters", native non-enslaved military powers and the gold to hire new sellword companies. But even if she had done something similar at Yunkai, then eventually New Ghis and Volantis would have moved against them anyway.

Of course, Dany at the time was mostly focused on acquiring a "free" big army of professionals who wouldn't rape or pillage to conquer the IT, and freeing slaves was an added mission.

[Many-Faced Votary]

On 1/30/2020 at 12:31 AM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

There's more, of course, but it seems to me that a tokar is a display of wealth and power, though not necessarily anything to do with slavery (well, other than the obvious connection that Old Ghis and the current Ghiscari are wealthy in large part due to the slave trade). All it certainly signifies is that one is wealthy, and that their work doesn't require both hands:

Even wound properly, the tokar required its wearer to hold it in place with the left hand. Walking in a tokar demanded small, mincing steps and exquisite balance, lest one tread upon those heavy trailing fringes. It was not a garment meant for any man who had to work.

Theoretically, anyone who has workers doing the majority of their business could wear a tokar. Even if they owned no slaves.

You neglected to include the sentence directly following the passage you quoted.

The garment was a clumsy thing, a long loose shapeless sheet that had to be wound around her hips and under an arm and over a shoulder, its dangling fringes carefully layered and displayed. Wound too loose, it was like to fall off; wound too tight, it would tangle, trip, and bind. Even wound properly, the tokar required its wearer to hold it in place with the left hand. Walking in a tokar demanded small, mincing steps and exquisite balance, lest one tread upon those heavy trailing fringes. It was not a garment meant for any man who had to work. The tokar was a master's garment, a sign of wealth and power.

Daenerys I, A Dance with Dragons

 

We also have the following:

The red brick streets of Astapor were almost crowded this morning. Slaves and servants lined the ways, while the slavers and their women donned their tokars to look down from their stepped pyramids. They are not so different from Qartheen after all, she thought. They want a glimpse of dragons to tell their children of, and their children's children. It made her wonder how many of them would ever have children.

Daenerys III, A Storm of Swords

Meereen was not her home, and never would be. It was a city of strange men with strange gods and stranger hair, of slavers wrapped in fringed tokars, where grace was earned through whoring, butchery was art, and dog was a delicacy. Meereen would always be the Harpy's city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy.

Daenerys X, A Dance with Dragons

 

Just the fact that Dany equates holding a whip with wearing a tokar suggests that the tokar is, in fact, a slaver's garment. This is particularly true when we see intentionally clear juxtaposition earlier in the same chapter:

Kraznys had a slave help her from her saddle. His own hands were full; one clutched his tokar, while the other held an ornate whip.

Daenerys III, A Storm of Swords

 

I think it's as clear as can be without Mr. Martin adding an awkward, "The tokar, traditional garment of slavers." or something equally clunky.

 

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I think she should have commanded anyone of 16 and younger should be spared, as that is the cut off age of becoming an adult in their world. But I get where she got the age of 12: that's her own age at the Lhazareen village when she first started to realize that selling people into slavery was morally wrong. 

I believe her instructions were a means of ensuring that those who were clearly children would be spared. She did not say to kill everyone over the age of twelve; she specified who should be slain, and additionally specifically instructed that the Unsullied not harm anyone under that age. These are very different things.

At that point in time, Daenerys had no way of knowing for certain what the age of majority is in the Ghiscari culture of Astapor specifically, to what extent children engage in commanding slaves and family affairs associated with this, the level of direct involvement in perpetuating slavery as one grows older, and so forth. Also consider that, had she stipulated that those younger than sixteen be spared, there would be a lot more confusion in how to interpret her orders, many otherwise clearly culpable slavers could be spared if they were passably young enough, and violent revenge and/or insurrection would be that much likelier if a large amount of (near-)adult males were left alive.

Besides, it must be remembered that as intelligent as Dany is, she is just a teenage girl exercising newfound agency with no real support or safety net. This was a very stressful and precarious situation for which she did not really have time to prepare, and providing clear orders with stipulations would be both difficult in the moment and potentially destructive to her goals and her own person. She is certainly smart enough to realize this; regardless of whatever extent emotion might have influenced her decision of age, it is clear she approached this as strategically as she could, and acted to spare as many innocents as she could, given that this occurred in the first place.

[Bernie Mac]

17 hours ago, Victor Newman said:

The tokar is the uniform of the master class among the people of Ghis.  All those who wore it are slave owners.  It was a fair decision to get rid of these folks.  There is also a strategic side to this decision.  Like a lot of things this young heroine does.  She took out all of those who could command slaves to fight back.  I am sure the last thing she wanted was pursuit on her way out of the city.  It's a much kinder way to deal with the guilty than let's say Tywin, Hoster, and Aerys would have.  Tywin took out the Reynes, Hoster destroyed the Goodbrooks, and Aerys nearly wiped the Darklyns from the face of Westeros. 

The Goodbrooks still exist, the son of the Lord that Hoster killed is part of Renly's wedding party, another member of the House is married to a Frey. Hoster just destroyed one Goodbrook village (perhaps their base, perhaps not).

 

I do disagree with the term of 'guilty' in this case. These people are not under the impression what they are doing is wrong and they were not actually given a choice to change their stance on how their society treated people. Dany just had them killed and installed on the local populace that murdering the people in control was the only way to take control.

The Wise Masters had returned to slaving as soon as she moved on, and were busy raising levies, hiring sellswords, and making alliances against her.

Cleon the self-styled Great was no better, however. The Butcher King had restored slavery to Astapor, the only change being that the former slaves were now the masters and the former masters were now the slaves.

 

To frame what happened in Astapor as heroic or good is bizarre to me. Dany fucked the entire city over and instead of being the power that implemented long term change, give her atrocities meaning, she just quickly moved on. She's young, this is a lesson to her in leadership, with the people of this city collateral damage.