Understanding MMD - a re-examination of her intentions

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Rhaego's description given by Mirri was false. GRRM showed to readers what Rhaego really looks like, in AGOT and in ACOK. Dany saw him as an adult, and he was not only not dead, he also didn't had nor bat wings nor lizard's tail.

Wait... is that the reason why you think Rhaego is still alive? I know you believe that, but I had no idea why. Remember “morrows not yet made”? That’s what the vision/dream of Rhaego alive is all about, that’s all. A future that could have been, but won’t because he is dead. So, so dead. 

[Frey family reunion]

17 hours ago, Megorova said:

The eggs were there in the same tent as Dany, Drogo, and Mirri.

I don't believe that to be the case.  It appears that they set up a tent specifically to house Drogo after he got sick.  Dany had a separate tent where she was taken after her miscarriage.  That's the tent that had her eggs in it.

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So I agree the eggs were in the tent & I'm with ya irt Quaithe but I'm not buying that Marwyn was there or that Dany mistook him for Jorah just because they are both first men & speak the common tongue. She knows very well what Jorah looks like & while we do have evidence of Quaithe, there is nothing to suggest Marwyn was there with her. 

Dany also knew what Viserys looked like and that he was dead, but in that tent, when she was giving birth to Rhaego, and someone present there with her was twisting her nipples, which is a method of stimulating labor, she mistook that person for Viserys, even though that person was a female. Dany saw Shiera as Viserys because in one of previous chapters in AGOT Viserys was also twisting her nipples to bully her. The other thing in common between Shiera and Viserys is that both of them are Targaryen dragonseeds. And Jorah with Martyn have four characteristics in common, that's why instead of Marwyn's face, whom Dany have never seen before, she saw Jorah, even though the real Jorah at that time was somewhere else, recuperating from his wound, either unconsciousness or sleeping.

Furthermore Dany also saw Marwyn as Drogo, though he wasn't having sex with her, he was checking the progress of her labour. That's when the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky, and then the stars disappeared and instead of them appearead fire, and then Viserys, who was twisting Dany's nipples, and then ghosts with mismatched blue-green eyes in traditional court red-black-colored clothes of Targaryen Kings, with Valyrian glass candles in their hands, and those ghosts cried as one, because it was one person - Shiera Seastar/Quaithe in her black cape and red mask made-of-starlight, and the stars were gone from daylight sky, because Quaithe took off her mask and Dany saw her face, and first saw her as Viserys, that's because she was delusional, either under influence of opium (milk of the poppy) or because of some sort of magic casted on her and Rhaego by Shiera.

Besides Shiera, whom Dany saw as stars, fire, shadow wings, blue-green-eyed ghosts and Viserys, there was one more person, a male, whom Dany saw first as Drogo and then as Jorah. Shiera stayed with Dany thru entire process of Rhaego's birth, and remained beside her for many hours afterwards, but Marwyn was there just for a short amount of time, he just checked how's the baby going and then "teleported" away.

It looks like Shiera said to him something like maybe Dany is Azor Ahai reborn, and Marwyn objected with "Rhaegar was the last dragon" and left. That's because Marwyn, who knew Rhaegar personally, who knew about the prophecy, and believed that Rhaegar or his three children were supposed to be the Promised Prince, didn't believed that Dany could be that Messiah. That's why his face was drawn and sorrowful when he was saying that. Jorah didn't knew Rhaegar. Jorah didn't knew about the prophecy. Thus there is no reason for Jorah to be sad while saying that Rhaegar was the last dragon.

Same as Shiera, Marwyn was summoned to Drogo's tent by Mirri Maz Duur, because he was Mirri's ex-teacher, and because gynecology is one of his specialisations. Most likely he was the one who assisted Elia with Rhaenys' and Aegon's birth, and Lyanna with Jon's birth. People say that Marwyn keeps the company of whores <- that's from Prologue of AFFC. If Citadel's acolytes know about that, then Marwyn's superiors also know about it. Nevertheless they didn't exiled him from the Citadel. And why is that? That's because they know that he frequently visit whores not to have sex with them, but to assist them with childbirth or abortions.

Let's summarize this:

1. Marwyn was Mirri's teacher.

2. Marwyn knows about the prophecy.

3. Marwyn knew Rhaegar (how else whould he know about the prophecy?)

4. Marwyn has glass candle.

5. Assistance in childbirth is one of Marwyn's specialisations.

6. Besides Shiera Seastar/Quaithe in Drogo's tent was unindentified man (seen by Dany as Drogo and Jorah) who was speaking Common tongue, knew Rhaegar, knew about the prophecy, and was able to get into Drogo's tent without anyone seeing him there, which indicates that he is a magic-user, same as Shiera.

Conclusion: to assist Dany with Rhaego's birth, Mirri summoned there both of her ex-teachers, Marwyn to assist with biological part of the process, and Shiera with magical aspects.

16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wait... is that the reason why you think Rhaego is still alive? I know you believe that, but I had no idea why. Remember “morrows not yet made”? That’s what the vision/dream of Rhaego alive is all about, that’s all.

Those visions are not the only reason why I know that Rhaego is alive. It seems that you missed that only one of those visions Dany saw in the House of the Undying, the other one she saw months before that. Furthermore, that "morrows not yet made" is a fat red herring, same as "a serving woman" in AGOT, Bran III:

"The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair, and he knew her from somewhere, from Winterfell, yes, that was it, he remembered her now, and then he realized that he was in Winterfell, in a bed high in some chilly tower room, and the black-haired woman dropped a basin of water to shatter on the floor and ran down the steps, shouting, "He's awake, he's awake, he's awake.""

<- The Three-Eyed Crow is a woman, and underlined text after that revelation is a red herring.

GRRM is a master of planting red herrings and making readers to believe that they are the truth, while the actual truth is slipping unnoticed past readers' radars.

Besides those visions there are also:

1. coloring of Dany's dragons (it's a hint to who will be their riders; Drogon - Dany, Rhaegal - Rhaego, Viserion - Jon),

2. the placement and order of placement of Dany's dragon eggs on Drogo's funeral pyre (the green-bronze egg was placed second and Drogo's braid was coiled around it - Rhaego will become second dragonrider; the third egg was placed between Drogo's legs, the meaning of that is that Jon, who will become the last dragonrider, also will be one of Dany's three mounts from the prophecy of the Undying - three mounts are Dany's three husbands - Drogo, Hizdahr, and Jon (blue rose from the bride of fire vision)),

3. the order of hatching (the opposite to order in which they will find their riders. First hatched Viserion, he will get his rider the last out of three dragons; then hatched Rhaegal; and the last one was Drogon, who got his rider the first out of three dragons),

4. the sound-effects of hatching (Rhaegal's egg hatched with the sound of thunder, that's because when dosh khaleen were predicting Rhaego's birth, they said that they can hear the thunder of his hooves; there was thunder in the prophecy about the Stallion that mounts the world and there was thunder when Rhaego's dragon hatched),

5. the order of visions in the House of the Undying indicate that that vision with Rhaego is the vision of the future, that event will happen after the mummers dargon and the smiling corpse,

6. Rhaego and Rhaegal bonded while they both were still unborn, that scene when they were reaching towards each other, and Dany said that she knows that her baby is a real dragon,

7. and more.

[Megorova]

50 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't believe that to be the case.  It appears that they set up a tent specifically to house Drogo after he got sick. 

No, they didn't. Dany and Drogo shared the same tent all the time, and her eggs were also always there. It was their tent in which Mirri killed Drogo's horse to begin blood magic ritual, in that same tent Dany gave birth to Rhaego and she was staying there until she regained consciousness. When she woke up, Drogo wasn't there, because he preferred to be out in the open under the sun, AGOT, Dany VIII and IX:

"Cohollo, bring up the slaves, they must put up the khal’s tent at once.”

The slaves erected Khal Drogo’s tent beneath a jagged outcrop of black rock whose shadow gave some relief from the heat of the afternoon sun. Even so, it was stifling under the sandsilk as Irri and Doreah helped Dany walk Drogo inside. Thick patterned carpets had been laid down over the ground, and pillows scattered in the corners. Eroeh, the timid girl Dany had rescued outside the mud walls of the Lamb Men, set up a brazier. They stretched Drogo out on a woven mat. "

" “We must bathe him,” she said stubbornly. She must not allow herself to despair. “Irri, have the tub brought at once. Doreah, Eroeh, find water, cool water, he’s so hot.” He was a fire in human skin.

The slaves set up the heavy copper tub in the corner of the tent."

"He was lying on the bare red earth, staring up at the sun.

A dozen bloodflies had settled on his body, though he did not seem to feel them. Dany brushed them away and knelt beside him. His eyes were wide open but did not see, and she knew at once that he was blind. When she whispered his name, he did not seem to hear. The wound on his breast was as healed as it would ever be, the scar that covered it grey and red and hideous.

“Why is he out here alone, in the sun?” she asked them.

“He seems to like the warmth, Princess,” Ser Jorah said. “His eyes follow the sun, though he does not see it. He can walk after a fashion. He will go where you lead him, but no farther. He will eat if you put food in his mouth, drink if you dribble water on his lips.” "

"They led Khal Drogo back to her tent, and Dany commanded them to fill a tub, and this time there was no blood in the water. "

 

They brought a bathtube to Drogo's and Dany's tent, and the tube was still there in the next chapter, after she regained consciousness. She bathed Drogo there, and then bathed there herself in chapter X.

Dany and Drogo lived in the same tent, Dany didn't had separated quarters. When Drogo fell from his horse, the slaves set up his tent, which was also Dany's tent, and all events thru chapters 8-10 were happening in or around that same tent. And the eggs were there, since nearly beginning of chapter 8, and until in chapter 10 they were taken from the tent and Dany placed them on Drogo's funeral pyre, where they hatched.

[kissdbyfire]

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Those visions are not the only reason why I know that Rhaego is alive. It seems that you missed that only one of those visions Dany saw in the House of the Undying, the other one she saw months before that. Furthermore, that "morrows not yet made" is a fat red herring, same as "a serving woman" in AGOT, Bran III:

"The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair, and he knew her from somewhere, from Winterfell, yes, that was it, he remembered her now, and then he realized that he was in Winterfell, in a bed high in some chilly tower room, and the black-haired woman dropped a basin of water to shatter on the floor and ran down the steps, shouting, "He's awake, he's awake, he's awake.""

<- The Three-Eyed Crow is a woman, and underlined text after that revelation is a red herring.

GRRM is a master of planting red herrings and making readers to believe that they are the truth, while the actual truth is slipping unnoticed past readers' radars.

All I can agree w/ here is that Martin is a master. For example, the passage from Bran’s chapter doesn’t mean what you think it does. Martin is simply using a device to transition between dream/vision to being awake. I know, you disagree and think it’s a red herring and that the 3EC is a woman. You are wrong, but we will have to wait for the rest of the story before I can tell you, “told ya!”. 

Quote

Besides those visions there are also:

1. coloring of Dany's dragons (it's a hint to who will be their riders; Drogon - Dany, Rhaegal - Rhaego, Viserion - Jon),

How so? I can even see Dany/Drogon w/ the red and black of house Targaryen but what about the other two? 

Quote

2. the placement and order of placement of Dany's dragon eggs on Drogo's funeral pyre (the green-bronze egg was placed second and Drogo's braid was coiled around it - Rhaego will become second dragonrider; the third egg was placed between Drogo's legs, the meaning of that is that Jon, who will become the last dragonrider, also will be one of Dany's three mounts from the prophecy of the Undying - three mounts are Dany's three husbands - Drogo, Hizdahr, and Jon (blue rose from the bride of fire vision)),

3. the order of hatching (the opposite to order in which they will find their riders. First hatched Viserion, he will get his rider the last out of three dragons; then hatched Rhaegal; and the last one was Drogon, who got his rider the first out of three dragons),

 4. the sound-effects of hatching (Rhaegal's egg hatched with the sound of thunder, that's because when dosh khaleen were predicting Rhaego's birth, they said that they can hear the thunder of his hooves; there was thunder in the prophecy about the Stallion that mounts the world and there was thunder when Rhaego's dragon hatched),

5. the order of visions in the House of the Undying indicate that that vision with Rhaego is the vision of the future, that event will happen after the mummers dargon and the smiling corpse,

6. Rhaego and Rhaegal bonded while they both were still unborn, that scene when they were reaching towards each other, and Dany said that she knows that her baby is a real dragon,

7. and more.

Okey-dokey. 

[Frey family reunion]

9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

No, they didn't. Dany and Drogo shared the same tent all the time, and her eggs were also always there. It was their tent in which Mirri killed Drogo's horse to begin blood magic ritual, in that same tent Dany gave birth to Rhaego and she was staying there until she regained consciousness. When she woke up, Drogo wasn't there, because he preferred to be out in the open under the sun, AGOT, Dany VIII and IX:

"Cohollo, bring up the slaves, they must put up the khal’s tent at once.”

The slaves erected Khal Drogo’s tent beneath a jagged outcrop of black rock whose shadow gave some relief from the heat of the afternoon sun. Even so, it was stifling under the sandsilk as Irri and Doreah helped Dany walk Drogo inside. Thick patterned carpets had been laid down over the ground, and pillows scattered in the corners. Eroeh, the timid girl Dany had rescued outside the mud walls of the Lamb Men, set up a brazier. They stretched Drogo out on a woven mat. "

" “We must bathe him,” she said stubbornly. She must not allow herself to despair. “Irri, have the tub brought at once. Doreah, Eroeh, find water, cool water, he’s so hot.” He was a fire in human skin.

The slaves set up the heavy copper tub in the corner of the tent."

"He was lying on the bare red earth, staring up at the sun.

A dozen bloodflies had settled on his body, though he did not seem to feel them. Dany brushed them away and knelt beside him. His eyes were wide open but did not see, and she knew at once that he was blind. When she whispered his name, he did not seem to hear. The wound on his breast was as healed as it would ever be, the scar that covered it grey and red and hideous.

“Why is he out here alone, in the sun?” she asked them.

“He seems to like the warmth, Princess,” Ser Jorah said. “His eyes follow the sun, though he does not see it. He can walk after a fashion. He will go where you lead him, but no farther. He will eat if you put food in his mouth, drink if you dribble water on his lips.” "

"They led Khal Drogo back to her tent, and Dany commanded them to fill a tub, and this time there was no blood in the water. "

 

They brought a bathtube to Drogo's and Dany's tent, and the tube was still there in the next chapter, after she regained consciousness. She bathed Drogo there, and then bath there too in chapter X.

Dany and Drogo lived in the same tent, Dany didn't had separated quarters. When Drogo fell from his horse, the slaves set up his tent, which was also Dany's tent, and all events thru chapters 8-10 were happening in or around that same tent. And the eggs were there, since nearly beginning of chapter 8, and until in chapter 10 they were taken from the tent and Dany placed them on Drogo's funeral pyre, where they hatched.

No, I think you are wrong.  The tent was specifically set up for Drogo when he was sick..  They refer to it as Drogo's tent when he was sick:

Quote

The slaves erected Khal Drogo's tent beneath a jagged outcrop of black rock whose shadow gave some relief from the heat of the afternoon sun.

Now distinguish that from your quote:

Quote

They led Khal Drogo back to her tent.  

Two separate tents were erected one for Dany and one for Drogo.  

When Dany finds Drogo she asks why he is out in the sun (as opposed to inside his tent):

Quote

He was lying on the bare red earth, staring up at the sun.  

"Why is he out here alone, in the sun?" she asked them.

"He seems to like the warmth, Princess,"

In other words, why isn't he in his tent.  Two separate tents, one described as Dany's tent and one described as Drogo's tent.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

46 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't believe that to be the case.  It appears that they set up a tent specifically to house Drogo after he got sick.  Dany had a separate tent where she was taken after her miscarriage.  That's the tent that had her eggs in it.

Yeah maybe, I don't think it's stated though. They probably always set up the same tent for the Khal & the Khaleesi- the one which she puts her eggs in. There is no mention of setting up one tent for Drogo when he is sick & another for Dany. Also, we know Dany was carried into the tent Drogo was ailing in while she was going through labor & that when she wakes up the eggs are readily available because she asks for them first. 

What leads you to believe there were two separate tents erected? 

[Frey family reunion]

5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah maybe, I don't think it's stated though. They probably always set up the same tent for the Khal & the Khaleesi- the one which she puts her eggs in. There is no mention of setting up one tent for Drogo when he is sick & another for Dany. Also, we know Dany was carried into the tent Drogo was ailing in while she was going through labor & that when she wakes up the eggs are readily available because she asks for them first. 

What leads you to believe there were two separate tents erected? 

See my response above.  One tent was described as Drogo's tent and the other tent was described as Dany's tent.

It's also fairly much common sense.  Do you think Drogo and Dany were sharing a bed, while he "recovered' from his illness while she recovered from her miscarriage?  There is no showing that Dany is surprised when she wakes up and does not find Drogo in her tent. 

Drogo's condition necessitated his own tent.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, I think you are wrong.  The tent was specifically set up for Drogo when he was sick..  They refer to it as Drogo's tent when he was sick:

I don't think so, yes the tent was specifically set up for Drogo when they stopped, because he fell off of his horse but there is nothing to indicate there is a separate tent for Dany. They have always shared the same tent. 

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

When Dany finds Drogo she asks why he is out in the sun (as opposed to inside his tent):

She is just asking why he is alone in the sun, not why he isn't in "his" tent. She would have went looking for him in "his" tent, if one existed right? Or at the very least have assumed he was in "his" tent when she woke. She asks where he is because he isn't in their tent, where she would expect him to be. 

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Two separate tents were erected one for Dany and one for Drogo. 

I think her tent & his tent are interchangeable in this context. 

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

In other words, why isn't he in his tent.  Two separate tents, one described as Dany's tent and one described as Drogo's tent.

With all due respect, this doesn't really make any sense. I see the idea behind you thinking there are 2 tents irt calling it Khal Drogo's tent & then "her" tent but this doesn't just equate in my mind. Asking why he is out in the sun alone doesn't say anything of whether or not they shared a tent or had two separate tents. She is just asking why he was left alone in the sun. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

See my response above.  One tent was described as Drogo's tent and the other tent was described as Dany's tent.

It's also fairly much common sense.  Do you think Drogo and Dany were sharing a bed, while he "recovered' from his illness while she recovered from her miscarriage?  There is no showing that Dany is surprised when she wakes up and does not find Drogo in her tent. 

Drogo's condition necessitated his own tent.

 

I disagree. I don't think Drogo was "recovering" at all. When the ritual was done he was likely the way he is now. Him being left alone in the sun & the others commenting that he likes the warmth is an indication to me that they have been dealing with him, in this manner, for long enough to recognize what he appears to like. 

She asks where the Khal is. Now, this could be because she expects him to be in their tent & he is not, or because she assumes he is healed & has went out hunting or something but I doubt it's the latter. She knows at this point that her baby has died. I think she knows she isn't going to get what she expected with Drogo either. She asks where he is because she expected him to be in their tent. 

I don't think Drogo's condition necessitated his own tent at all. 

I'm going to comb through that section though & see if I can find any further clues either way. 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think so, yes the tent was specifically set up for Drogo when they stopped, because he fell off of his horse but there is nothing to indicate there is a separate tent for Dany. They have always shared the same tent. 

She is just asking why he is alone in the sun, not why he isn't in "his" tent. She would have went looking for him in "his" tent, if one existed right? Or at the very least have assumed he was in "his" tent when she woke. She asks where he is because he isn't in their tent, where she would expect him to be. 

I think her tent & his tent are interchangeable in this context. 

With all due respect, this doesn't really make any sense. I see the idea behind you thinking there are 2 tents irt calling it Khal Drogo's tent & then "her" tent but this doesn't just equate in my mind. Asking why he is out in the sun alone doesn't say anything of whether or not they shared a tent or had two separate tents. She is just asking why he was left alone in the sun. 

You have to take into account their circumstances at the time.  They specifically set up a tent for Drogo because he was extremely sick.  He fell off his horse and he was unresponsive.  The tent was set up with the idea that they would try to treat him in it.  Dany on the other hand was extremely pregnant.  It doesn't really correspond that she would be sharing a tent or a bed with Khal while they tried to treat him.  

Dany told the handmaidens to bring her to Khal.  She was told that he was still alive, so she isn't going to know specifically where he was.  When she found him, he was still unresponsive laying in the sun.  She reacts with surprise that in this condition he would be outside under the sun, as opposed to inside.

Ask yourself when they erected Drogo's tent after he fell off his horse, it wasn't instead classified as erecting their tent.

[Megorova]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

How so? I can even see Dany/Drogon w/ the red and black of house Targaryen but what about the other two? 

Rhaegal - green-bronze. Rhaego - half-Dothraki.

Green Dothraki Grass Sea. Dothraki are bronze-skinned (in Dany's vision Rhaego had bronze skin of his father, silver-gold hair of his mother, and his eyes were almond-shaped and purple), and they forge their arahks from bronze, and bells.

Viserion - "Another was pale cream streaked with gold", "When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon's egg. It was the pale one, its scales the color of butter cream, veined with whorls of gold and bronze".

Jon Snow, snow is white. Jon's direwolf is an albino, white, and Viserion is a white-ish dragon. Gold in his coloring is possibly a hint to Jon's future crown, when he will become King Aegon VII Targaryen. And bronze is possibly reference to Jon's ancestry. Like in Rhaego's case, who is half-Dothraki, bronze is a reference to his father's Dothraki ancestry, in Jon's case its a reference to his mother's ancestry. Lyanna was from First Men, and they same as Dothraki made their weapons from bronze.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

@Frey family reunion

So, I understand why you are coming to the conclusion you are but consider this. We know Dany was carried into the tent that Drogo was dying in right? And we know the eggs were in the tent she woke up in because:

They found her on the carpet, crawling toward her dragon eggs. 

Then while talking to Mirri about how her son died we have this:

"My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent," she said "I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born."

I think that makes it pretty clear, it is the same tent. I think it's fairly safe to conclude that the eggs were put in the tent upon erection but I suppose it is possible they weren't put in there until later, although I don't think there is any evidence for that. 

 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@Frey family reunion

So, I understand why you are coming to the conclusion you are but consider this. We know Dany was carried into the tent that Drogo was dying in right? And we know the eggs were in the tent she woke up in because:

They found her on the carpet, crawling toward her dragon eggs. 

Then while talking to Mirri about how her son died we have this:

"My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent," she said "I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born."

I think that makes it pretty clear, it is the same tent. I think it's fairly safe to conclude that the eggs were put in the tent upon erection but I suppose it is possible they weren't put in there until later, although I don't think there is any evidence for that. 

 

 

 

That's a good catch and it is making me second guess myself, but oddly enough we get this passage from Mirri directly below it:

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"That may be as it may be," answered Mirri Maz Duur, "yet the creature that came forth from your womb was as I said.  Death was in that tent, Khaleesi."

I suppose the answer could be that Mirri was talking about the tent she is currently standing in the past tense, so she refers to it as that tent as opposed to this tent.

[corbon]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That's a good catch and it is making me second guess myself, but oddly enough we get this passage from Mirri directly below it:

Just to add 2c...
I think that the tent erection was described as "Khal Drogo's tent" because the slaves were erecting it. To them it is Khal Drogo's tent, whether the Khal shares it with the Khaleesi or not.
Dany describes "her tent" because that was more internal than external. To her its hers as well as Drogo's.

I don't see any inconsistency in the language with it being a single shared tent. Nor do I see a need for Drogo it have his own tent due to his catatonia - in fact, I would expect him to share a tent in that situation even if he didn't normally.
 

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I suppose the answer could be that Mirri was talking about the tent she is currently standing in the past tense, so she refers to it as that tent as opposed to this tent.

Agreed. "that tent" is a specific place and specific time, which is different from this (same) tent now. Not always, but that would be a common way of using the language.

[Seams]

I'm not sure of the his/hers separate tents (although I respect those who provide direct quotes from the text).

11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The slaves erected Khal Drogo's tent beneath a jagged outcrop of black rock whose shadow gave some relief from the heat of the afternoon sun.

I think this is significant. Jon Snow has a makeshift tent (made with his cloak) under a rock outside of Craster's Keep. He shares it with the direwolf Ghost and Sam Tarly and a fire. The cloak freezes overnight after being out in a downpour all day and Jon emerges from it like a creature being born from a cracking eggshell.

Aside from the Jon / Khal Drogo comparison, there is a larger symbolism around tents. Maggie the Frog is in a tent when Cersei visits her. Renly dies in a tent. Mance Rayder lives in a tent that belongs to Dalla and Val and is made out of white bearskins. I believe that the slavemaster who buys Tyrion and Penny, Yezzan zo Qaggaz, lives and dies in a tent.

I suspect, too, that "curtain walls" and tapestries are part of the tent motif, the common factor being fabric walls. Dany puts a weaving on a wall at one point in her rise to power. Littlefinger has asked for some old tapestries to be sent to him from King's Landing. Winterfell is said to have curtain walls.

And the whole idea of fabric walls undoubtedly relates to the larger sewing and needlework and tearing motif.

My surmise is that these fabric walls allow a closer connection - maybe a porous separation - between mainstream life and magic life.

Of course, anything of importance to the Dothraki is done under the open sky. So the tent might even be too much of a barrier. (Hmm. Maybe that answers the question about why Dany's dragon hatching worked but Summerhall had been such a failure - Dany's pyre was out under the open sky.)

Ser Duncan the Tall likes sleeping in hedges, as a hedge knight should. (In The Sworn Sword, he sleeps on the roof of a tower.) Others at the Ashford Tourney have jousting pavilions.

Maybe the point is that people who are really ready to receive magic (or some blessing of the gods or whatever you want to call it) are most successful when they put themselves outside in the open. There is a kind of magic that can come into a tent - maybe tents are where dark magic takes place?

[Seams]

I have another thought that builds on my previous comment (#136 in this thread) and seems off-topic at first but eventually may bring us back to Mirri Maz Duur.

I think GRRM wants us to compare Marwyn and Sam Tarly. Not just because they are both in the Maester business, although that is significant. We can also see that Sam is a living link between Maester Aemon, who explains part of the "dragon revival" prophecy in Sam's presence, and Marwyn who seems interested in getting to Dany's dragons asap. The Cinnamon Wind ship is also a shared link among Aemon, Sam and Marwyn (and ships can be symbolic eggs for symbolic rebirths in ASOIAF). Yet another tangent: cinnamon is a spice; the Spicer family is connected to Maggie the Frog who is similar to Mirri Maz Duur in her exotic dark magic and (possible) ability to read and implement prophecies.

Back to Marwyn / Sam: Leo Tyrell refer to Marwyn by the nickname, "the mastiff." By wordplay, this connects to Sam's "fat pink mast" that so many readers (erroneously) believe to be gratuitous sexy stuff the author wrote on a bad day. Masts are important in other symbolic ways (the images of the Seven Gods burned by Stannis and Melisandre were made from Targaryen heirloom masts; the mast of the Selaesori Qhoran snaps off and becomes a dwarf after the storm at sea; the whole set of symbols around winds is logically paired with sails and masts).

If Sam's fat pink mast made its debut when Sam gave into his desire for Gilly, I suspect that Marwyn's mastiff nickname might also have a sexual connotation. Were Marwyn and Mirri Maz Duur lovers at some point in the past? The wiki puts their relationship this way:

Quote

He encountered Mirri Maz Duur in his travels, and taught her the secrets of the human body and the Common Tongue.^[4]

Earlier in the thread (post #81), I wondered whether Mirri Maz Duur is a parallel to Dany's mother, Rhaella, and whether her method for keeping Drogo alive is not to restore his human body, but to recreate him in the form of a dragon:

On 3/11/2020 at 11:16 AM, Seams said:

Yet another possible parallel for MMD: what if we substitute the name and person of Rhaella every time we see or hear from Mirri Maz Duur?

And what if the dark magic ritual isn't a botched attempt to restore Drogo to a healthy state of human existence but the mysterious and long-sought ritual for hatching dragon eggs? Dany appears to stumble upon the dragon-hatching magic as a lucky side-effect of cremating Drogo and punishing MMD, but maybe she was working in cooperation with MMD who guided her to the final steps of the ritual. The shadow-dancing in the tent is the prelude to the pyre, where the real transformation takes place, turning Khal Drogo into Drogon.

Taking stock of the common elements in the two arcs:

1) Drogo and Jon Snow both hatch from fabric eggs (tent and cloak) that are also partially enclosed in rock. (Dany's "real" dragon eggs have been petrified so I think that is the parallel to the stone.) Fire is part of the hatching.

2) Sam Tarly sleeps with Jon under the cloak / rock. Mirri Maz Duur is in the tent and performs a mysterious part of the hatching ritual in Dany's story line. (Interestingly, there is a wolf shadow in MMD's ritual and the direwolf Ghost in Jon's cloak tent.)

If Sam is the Marwyn equivalent, however, and Marwyn is Mirri's lover and/or mentor, is there another parallel who is the equivalent of MMD? It seems logical to examine Sam's lover, Gilly.

2.5) Gilly approaches Jon Snow after he emerges from this frozen cloak / egg outside of Craster's Keep, asking him to protect her and her baby. He indicates that he cannot help her. This almost certainly creates a Gilly / Lyanna comparison. (It might also be the parallel to Dany giving the go-ahead to a magic ritual that will sacrifice the life of MMD.)

3) Gilly is a wet nurse. MMD is a midwife. (One of the rumored mothers of Jon Snow is also a wet nurse.)

4) Gilly's baby is named Monster. MMD delivers Dany's baby, who is a monster.

5) Gilly is a surrogate mother for Aemon Steelsong, an "heir" to Maester Aemon Targaryen. If MMD is a parallel for Rhaella, she is the symbolic mother of Daenerys Targaryen.

6) Gilly's baby was conceived through an incestuous relationship with her father. Rhaella is part of a long line of incestuous Targaryens and at least two of her babies seem to have been conceived with her brother / husband, Aerys.

Here's where the conjecture departs from the text we have been given so far.

7) Since MMD was consumed by the pyre, empowering the three dragons to finally hatch, Gilly will be sacrificed at some point to save the life of  Aemon Steelsong or another baby. (Please do NOT tell HBO as we don't want them to screw up this story line.)

8) I suspect that Gilly is pregnant with Sam's fat pink mast baby. This will be a milk brother or milk sister for Aemon Steelsong and a half brother/sister for Monster. (HBO - don't listen to me. Move along. Nothing to see here.) If Gilly has two babies by two different fathers, could Lyanna have had two babies? Does Mirri Maz Duur have a child or two who will enter the story line at some point? If MMD = Rhaella, past babies may have been stillborn or died in infancy but they would have some kind of ongoing symbolic presence or meaning in the series.

9) Maester Aemon's body is preserved in a cask of blackbelly rum on board the Cinnamon Wind. Marwyn is now a passenger aboard the Cinnamon Wind, heading to Dany at Meereen. If the Sam / Marwyn / Aemon connection is intentional, Marwyn's arrival at Meereen might represent a hatching and rebirth - bringing Aemon's "spirit" into Dany's story line in keeping with Aemon's dying wish.

But I may be wrong.

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, Seams said:

Ser Duncan the Tall likes sleeping in hedges, as a hedge knight should. (In The Sworn Sword, he sleeps on the roof of a tower.) Others at the Ashford Tourney have jousting pavilions.

Quote

"I washed them," the boy said.  "And I groomed the  horses, made the fire, and caught this fish.  I would have raised your pavilion, but I couldn't find one."

"There's my pavilion." Dunk swept a hand above his head, at the branches of the tall elm that loomed above them.

"That's a tree," the boy said, unimpressed.

"It's all the pavilion a true knight needs.  I would sooner sleep under the stars than in some smoky tent."

13 hours ago, Seams said:

Maybe the point is that people who are really ready to receive magic (or some blessing of the gods or whatever you want to call it) are most successful when they put themselves outside in the open. There is a kind of magic that can come into a tent - maybe tents are where dark magic takes place?

Tents + lit braziers = shadows.

[Seams]

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Tents + lit braziers = shadows.

Yes, there are definitely shadows inside tents with braziers, as seen in the key MMD scene. But there are also shadows cast by torches inside the Long Gallery as Sansa flees with Dontos and inside of the Winterfell crypt when Bran describes the giant direwolf shadows cast against the walls. So I feel as if we're circling around something with this "inside / tent / outside" division of magic or relative in / out status, but haven't quite nailed it down.

Then there's this scene brought to us by Melisandre:

The morning air was dark with the smoke of burning gods.

... Heat rose shimmering through the chill air; ...

"Their beauty will make them more pleasing to R'hllor," Melisandre said when she told Stannis to pull them down and drag them out the castle gates.

Pale flames licked at the grey sky. Dark smoke rose, twisting and curling. When the wind pushed it toward them, men blinked and wept and rubbed their eyes.

(ACoK, Davos I, Chap. 10)

We know that this dark magic ceremony is taking place outside, but we are told later that the Lightbringer pulled from the flames by Stannis is a fake. Maybe the dragging of the masts / statues from the sept was not enough to turn this into the stronger magical "outside" ceremony?

I'm also guessing that Davos was the stand-in for Ser Jorah at this "hatching," and his heart definitely was not in this in the same way that Ser Jorah's heart was with Dany at the pyre.

Edit: Back on the MMD focus here. If MMD is "Mrs. Mastiff," through her connection to Marwyn, Dany burning her in the pyre might be the equivalent of Melisandre burning the masts-turned-New-gods-icons at Dragonstone. I know I'm piling up the parallels for MMD here, but I do think GRRM works that way, using layers of legend and parallel characters to help us decode each story. So far, I've got MMD (possibly) paralleling Qyburn, Falyse Stokeworth, Rhaella, Marwyn, Gilly and a bunch of sacred icons. Pretty straightforward.

[Megorova]

@Seams I think that there's a possibility that when the Cinnamon Wind was departing from Braavos, besides Sam, Gilly and maester Aemon, Quaithe was also there, though she changed ships shortly prior Cinnamon Wind arrived to Oldtown's port, and she continued her voyage on board of Huntress ship.

When Dany was in Qarth, in ACOK, shortly after her 15th birthday (May of 299), the captain of Cinnamon Wind told her that his ship is going to the Jade Sea, and that they won't return to Westeros for at least a year. But in AFFC, still in 299, the ship was in Braavos, which is in the opposite direction from where it was supposed to go, and then it went to Westeros. I think that's because when Quhuru Mo (the captain) was meeting Dany, he thought that Quaithe was in Asshai (which is in the area of the Jade Sea), and he was going to go there to her. From Qarth on Cinnamon Wind Quaithe went to Braavos, because she knew that maester Aemon is there, and then one of Quhuru Mo's people went and "accidentally" met Sam, and Sam was offered a passage across the Narrow Sea.

In exchange for passage of four passengers Sam was paying by working as a crewmember, because the ship was supposedly shorthanded. That's a very cheap payment, even with inclusion of those books that Sam later gave to the captain for sale. Furthermore, if the ship was really shorthanded, instead of taking Sam, the captain could have hired someone more experienced for his crew. Braavos is one of the biggest ports in the world, so it's ridiculous that the captain supposedly was unable to find new crewman there, and instead was willing to hire someone as inexperienced as Sam, and in addition to him also to take on board three more passengers. It was all staged, because Quaithe wanted to help Aemon's companions.  

Could be that Quaithe is 1/4 Swann. It's a possibility that Shiera's mother, Serenei of Lys, and Shiera's grandmother, Larra Rogare, was the same person, and that Serenei's/Larra's mother was Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys. Cinnamon Wind is a swan ship, and its captain is a black skinned Summer Islander, whose name from Japanese translates as "crows".

Quaithe/Shiera is the Three-Eyed Crow, and because Euron Greyjoy, same as Mirri Maz Duur and maester Marwyn, used to be something like Quaithe's apprentice, he took for himself a nickname the Crow's Eye, because he is the Crow's "third eye". Could be that she created between the two of them a magical bond based on blood magic. And because of that bond she can see thru his dark/blood eye. And when he betrayed her, he started to cover that eye, to keep her from spying after him. From her he learned how to use glass candles (his name in Qarth is Urrathon Nightwalker), so he knew how to find her. And he sent his people, three Ironborn ships, to intercept Cinnamon Wind, to seize Quaithe.