Understanding Viserys

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So at first glance Viserys seems like a pretty big douche, and if we're being honest he kinda is. But I still think he's a tragic and understandable character. Put it this way, sine he was probably old enough to remember he has been a ,,king". However what kind of king? He was forced to run around Essos out of fear of being assassinated, forced to be humbled by cheese mongers, being treated like some sort of freak by everybody, and even having to sell his crown, the one thing his mother left him, a mother which we have no reason not to think he deeply loved. So with all that being taken into consideration, is it that weird that he took out all his anger on Dany, who was the only one lower in the food chain then he was. Is it really that weird that he became so entitled and started to freak out when he lost even the small modicum of power in the Dothraki Sea? So what do you think? Is Viserys a tragic and understandable character or is he just a douche?

[frenin]

He is both.  

[Lord Varys]

Viserys III is, for the most part, just a youth who couldn't cope with the stress of knowing that he was once a prince and a king and lost all that. The reason why he wants all that back is so that he and Dany can feel safe again - he was apparently afraid for his life for years and years.

He is pretty much a harmless guy, all he ever wanted was that crown and the feeling of being king. Character-wise he might have been a little bit like his father was in his youth - not very bright and very eager for praise.

What triggers his aggression towards Dany seems to be mostly the fact that she can cope better with the situation than he does - which he interprets as her giving up who she is. He doesn't grasp that Dany doesn't truly remember what it means to be a princess, he never knew their parents, and never lived at court. Whenever she indicates to be happy with their exile/new life and tries to settle in/accept it, he gets angry.

Then there is also the fact that Viserys apparently very much loved and desired Daenerys on a sexual/romantic level - the way the Targaryens usually do - but his plans to retake the Iron Throne eventually demanded that he marry Dany to a filthy savage. This was also something he couldn't really suffer. His cruel remarks to her that he would give Dany to his entire khalasar revolve around that loss. It must have been very difficult for him to agree to marry Dany to Drogo, and so he cannot really deal with the fact that Dany also doesn't want to do that because that brings back his own pain over this.

The same kind of thing triggers his hatred while they are with the Dothraki. Viserys cannot stand it that Dany suddenly 'outranks' him and that she actually seems to happy with the Dothraki and losing herself there. He also has issues with her no longer being under his thumb, of course, but this is a complex thing. Dany doesn't really understand his issue about not wanting to dress like a Dothraki (which really makes no sense for the King of Westeros). Accepting that Dany comes into her own means accepting that she is lost to him now. And her becoming a Dothraki is effectively a constant insult to him - because it means he could not protect his sister from losing her identity as a Targaryen princess.

It is the fact that Dany and Viserys never talked about their complex feelings for each other that the situation deteriorates to the degree it does. For Dany, her time with the Dothraki opens her world, but for Viserys it closes down. But we see how much Dany loved her brother despite their clashes when she names one of the dragons after him, when she thinks about him occasionally, and when she shows up as a vision/hallucination at the end of ADwD.

[Hugorfonics]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 It must have been very difficult for him to agree to marry Dany to Drogo, and so he cannot really deal with the fact that Dany also doesn't want to do that because that brings back his own pain over this.

I agree that Viserys did not want to sell Dany to Drogo, but after weighing the options (with fatass Illyrio leaning on the scale lol) he decided he had too. Danys feelings and wellbeing is second to his IT

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Then there is also the fact that Viserys apparently very much loved and desired Daenerys on a sexual/romantic level - the way the Targaryens usually do - 

I disagree here though. For all of Danys life Viserys assumed hed marry her, but not even these perverted ass Targs are checking out a toddler. He raised her, how old was she when Darry died? 6? So Viserys isnt trying to hit that either. Eventually shes a teenager and still unattractive, in her brothers/care givers eyes

Quote

"Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?"

"She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal," Illyrio told him, not for the first time. "Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes … she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt … and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo." When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling.

"I suppose," her brother said doubtfully. "The savages have queer tastes. Boys, horses, sheep …"

The fact that Viserys wanted Dany before her wedding has to do with jealousy and envy, not lust or romance

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I agree that Viserys did not want to sell Dany to Drogo, but after weighing the options (with fatass Illyrio leaning on the scale lol) he decided he had too. Danys feelings and wellbeing is second to his IT

Sure, but the whole thing is also to benefit her. She would be returning to Westeros, too. They could both go home.

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I disagree here though. For all of Danys life Viserys assumed hed marry her, but not even these perverted ass Targs are checking out a toddler. He raised her, how old was she when Darry died? 6? So Viserys isnt trying to hit that either. Eventually shes a teenager and still unattractive, in her brothers/care givers eyes

The fact that Viserys wanted Dany before her wedding has to do with jealousy and envy, not lust or romance

The fact that Dany expected to marry Viserys one day indicates in my opinion that she was raised with that expectation in mind. Which I think would be something Viserys indicated he would.

[Hugorfonics]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but the whole thing is also to benefit her. She would be returning to Westeros, too. They could both go home.

True.

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that Dany expected to marry Viserys one day indicates in my opinion that she was raised with that expectation in mind. Which I think would be something Viserys indicated he would.

Word. They both expected to be with each other, keeping the blood line pure like the weird Targaryens they are. But I just dont think Viserys viewed Dany as attractive which shouldn't be that surprising really

[Lord Varys]

40 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

True.

Word. They both expected to be with each other, keeping the blood line pure like the weird Targaryens they are. But I just dont think Viserys viewed Dany as attractive which shouldn't be that surprising really

That is why I had it as 'romantic/sexual' - we don't know what it was, but it seems he really tried to be a good elder brother and prepare her for her future as best he could ... and didn't do all that bad of a job in that regard. He could be mean and angry but it doesn't seem as if this was all he was. In fact, it seems it were only a few episodes, especially after he had to sell the crown.

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys cannot stand it that Dany suddenly 'outranks' him and that she actually seems to happy with the Dothraki and losing herself there.

I totally feel this. He resents seeing her being content amongst a pretty barbaric people/culture, because he can contrast it to what she might have been if not for RR while that contrast gets completely overtaken by the savage queen eating a raw horse heart.

 

Topic @Alyn Oakenfist

 Both. I find it understandable that Viseryes turned out douchy when being natured and nurtured by the Mad King. 

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Sigella said:

 Both. I find it understandable that Viseryes turned out douchy when being natured and nurtured by the Mad King. 

Not sure Viserys had that much contact with his dad, especially not in his later years. While Aerys II was obsessed with his son shortly after his birth, we also learn that his mother later shielded him from his father's madness as best she could. And Aerys II did not exactly spend much time with the boy later on, not taking him with him to Harrenhal, nor having him around when he was burning people and stuff.

[Hugorfonics]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is why I had it as 'romantic/sexual' - we don't know what it was,

We know it wasnt sexual

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 but it seems he really tried to be a good elder brother and prepare her for her future as best he could

Word

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 ... and didn't do all that bad of a job in that regard. 

Not at all. Shes good peoples, Viserys must have taught her good things. Shes also bilingual with a decent knowledge of Sunset's history

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

. He could be mean and angry but it doesn't seem as if this was all he was. In fact, it seems it were only a few episodes, especially after he had to sell the crown.

No doubt, Viserys became extraordinarily pitiful at the end

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but the whole thing is also to benefit her. She would be returning to Westeros, too. They could both go home.

To be fair though, it's something he thinks is a benefit to her but it isn't necessarily. Even if she believes it's a benefit to her she is still the one sacrificing her life & body for Viserys to potentially claim a throne - the benefits may not be worth it to her. 

[Sigella]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure Viserys had that much contact with his dad, especially not in his later years. While Aerys II was obsessed with his son shortly after his birth, we also learn that his mother later shielded him from his father's madness as best she could. And Aerys II did not exactly spend much time with the boy later on, not taking him with him to Harrenhal, nor having him around when he was burning people and stuff.

I was thinking douche on the level of mocking Tywin at feasts rather.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

We know it wasnt sexual

The way Illyrio talks about Viserys' desire - and his own - certainly could indicate that it was sexual in the end. Doesn't have to be, though. We never get his perspective so it is unclear.

One has to consider that while Drogo hasn't yet agreed to the deal he didn't really have to face the fact that Dany was now lost to him. This would have come only after that ... and that entire time is passed over. We jump from the first meeting with Drogo directly to the wedding.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

To be fair though, it's something he thinks is a benefit to her but it isn't necessarily. Even if she believes it's a benefit to her she is still the one sacrificing her life & body for Viserys to potentially claim a throne - the benefits may not be worth it to her. 

Sure, but where is that different? Dany is her child and Viserys is her brother and guardian and decides what's best for her and the family. That's no different from Ned deciding that Sansa marry Joffrey and him later deciding that she is not going to do that. It is clear, that Viserys III is under more pressure there to restore the family name and fortunes than Ned is, but structurally there is no difference between Dany's or Cersei's or Lysa's or Sansa's arranged marriage.

Nobody in this world cares much what a woman whose marriage is arranged has to say about this matter. It is just expected that they do as they are told ... that's how they are brought up, after all. Even in Dorne Arianne is taught and subsequently willing to marry any man her father, the Prince of Dorne, commands her to wed.

The men arranging those marriages always think that what they decide is best for their daughters or sisters is what's best for them. Their own opinions on the matter are irrelevant.

But in Dany's case it seems clear that Viserys struggles with this idea to marry Dany to a filthy savage like Drogo. He does that because he has to, not because he wants to. Many other arranged marriages where the women suffered thanks to the choices of their fathers were made under circumstances in which the man wasn't forced to do something like that to secure the future of his house.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not at all. Shes good peoples, Viserys must have taught her good things. Shes also bilingual with a decent knowledge of Sunset's history

Another thing that must effectively go back to Viserys in Dany's education is her decision to take up the Targaryen torch when he dropped it and to see it as her mission to avenge the family. That is something she had no intention of doing while her brother was still alive - or only started to consider doing when she realized that her brother might fail - but it isn't a desire that can come out of nothing. Viserys must have made it clear to her that it is their duty as the last Targaryens to avenge their dead kin and get what was theirs one day.

3 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I was thinking douche on the level of mocking Tywin at feasts rather.

Not sure if Viserys ever was that kind of guy. I'd maintain his drunken stunt at the feast in Vaes Dothrak was his attempt to prove to Drogo that he was, after all, a man and a dragon both. It was his clumsy attempt to demonstrate that he meant business, too. In a different setting and with Viserys understanding/caring more about Dothraki customs this could have worked.

He definitely crossed a line when he threatened to kill Dany and the unborn child, but as is effectively revealed by his later words he didn't really mean any of that. He was drunk and he was stupid, but he would have never gone through with stuff like that. Dany didn't grasp what was going on, either. She seemed to have thought he meant what he said and she seems to have been very shocked that he would contemplate to murder her and her child.

[Hugorfonics]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The way Illyrio talks about Viserys' desire - and his own - certainly could indicate that it was sexual in the end. Doesn't have to be, though. We never get his perspective so it is unclear.

He says she looks too young, and then doubtfully agrees with Illyrio that someone with queer taste could find her attractive

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One has to consider that while Drogo hasn't yet agreed to the deal he didn't really have to face the fact that Dany was now lost to him. This would have come only after that ... and that entire time is passed over. We jump from the first meeting with Drogo directly to the wedding.

Eh, somewhat. Im sure Viserys knew what he was getting into, maybe not to the same degree.

Shes like their moms crown, one of the last remnants of house Targ.

Also, hes still king. Shes still his subject

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but where is that different?

Its not. Most people, Viserys included, do not want to watch their loved ones marry a rapist. 

But no matter how bad Viserys sacrafice was, Danys was monumentally more (not saying she had a choice)

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Another thing that must effectively go back to Viserys in Dany's education is her decision to take up the Targaryen torch when he dropped it and to see it as her mission to avenge the family. That is something she had no intention of doing while her brother was still alive - or only started to consider doing when she realized that her brother might fail - but it isn't a desire that can come out of nothing. Viserys must have made it clear to her that it is their duty as the last Targaryens to avenge their dead kin and get what was theirs one day.

Of course, when Jon thinks of Winterfell he feels like hes betraying Robb and them. Sansa only vaguely understands the responsibility of being the last Stark. To wish harm on the heir is Big Walder like thinking, not Dany like

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but where is that different? Dany is her child and Viserys is her brother and guardian and decides what's best for her and the family. That's no different from Ned deciding that Sansa marry Joffrey and him later deciding that she is not going to do that. It is clear, that Viserys III is under more pressure there to restore the family name and fortunes than Ned is, but structurally there is no difference between Dany's or Cersei's or Lysa's or Sansa's arranged marriage.

No, it isn't any different. I'm just saying it to clarify that just because Viserys deems that this benefits her doesn't mean it is actually benefitting her. Yes, it would be the same thing with any arranged marriage. 

There is some difference though. Viserys is selling Dany off to a Dothraki horselord, not another noble of gentle birth. In essence it's the same; arranging a marriage for a political alliance. But there is reason for this to be particularly off-putting or to be viewed by Dany as worse than a typical arranged marriage. 

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody in this world cares much what a woman whose marriage is arranged has to say about this matter. It is just expected that they do as they are told ... that's how they are brought up, after all. Even in Dorne Arianne is taught and subsequently willing to marry any man her father, the Prince of Dorne, commands her to wed.

Yep, I didn't argue against any of that. 

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The men arranging those marriages always think that what they decide is best for their daughters or sisters is what's best for them. Their own opinions on the matter are irrelevant.

I don't think that is always the case. Certainly sometimes. But others a father or brother would take the daughters wants into account. For instance, Brienne has refused a few suitors & her father has not forced her into a marriage. 

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But in Dany's case it seems clear that Viserys struggles with this idea to marry Dany to a filthy savage like Drogo. He does that because he has to, not because he wants to. Many other arranged marriages where the women suffered thanks to the choices of their fathers were made under circumstances in which the man wasn't forced to do something like that to secure the future of his house.

Yeah, sorry but I have a real hard time viewing Viserys as the victim or feeling pity for him, in this particular instance. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say he does this because he has to not because he wants to. He could have let go of the dream for the IT. He could have tried to make a different marriage alliance, he could have done any number things. He is not forced into this, Dany is forced into this. He has plenty of other choices, none were afforded to her. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No, it isn't any different. I'm just saying it to clarify that just because Viserys deems that this benefits her doesn't mean it is actually benefitting her. Yes, it would be the same thing with any arranged marriage. 

Well, as it turned it definitely benefitted Dany to be married to Drogo. It was a much happier marriage than Lysa-Jon or Cersei-Robert.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

There is some difference though. Viserys is selling Dany off to a Dothraki horselord, not another noble of gentle birth. In essence it's the same; arranging a marriage for a political alliance. But there is reason for this to be particularly off-putting or to be viewed by Dany as worse than a typical arranged marriage. 

Drogo is khal of the Dothraki. He may be a savage king but he is a king nonetheless. On that front he is very much suitable husband for Dany. There are the cultural differences and stuff but rank-wise this is not a bad match for Dany.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think that is always the case. Certainly sometimes. But others a father or brother would take the daughters wants into account. For instance, Brienne has refused a few suitors & her father has not forced her into a marriage. 

Brienne, like Arianne, was never commanded to marry. She was expected possibly even urged to make it work, etc. but her father never forced her. Not to mention that quite a few of her betrothals didn't work out because of the men involved rather than her.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, sorry but I have a real hard time viewing Viserys as the victim or feeling pity for him, in this particular instance. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say he does this because he has to not because he wants to. He could have let go of the dream for the IT. He could have tried to make a different marriage alliance, he could have done any number things. He is not forced into this, Dany is forced into this. He has plenty of other choices, none were afforded to her. 

Well, not every character has to be described as sympathetic nor do we need his inner thoughts to make good guesses what they are about. Viserys III was subjectively under the impression that Robert was out there to get him and Dany. We don't know whether he imagined those hired knives or whether there were attempts by freelance assassins on his life, but he does not only want the Iron Throne back because it is his right, but also because he has to destroy Robert and his family and allies to ensure that he and his sister and their children can hope to live to old age.

The idea that he could have just settled down and lived the life of an eccentric exiled king is just not realistic. That's like imagining that the Stark children could make a peace with Roose and Ramsay that does not involve them being murdered, castrated, or forced to join orders they might not want to join.

Viserys and Dany would have to be every reason to afraid for their lives while Robert and his family still sat on the Iron Throne. Possibly even afterwards if some other usurper had toppled them because people don't forget that the Targaryens are the rightful rulers of Westeros.

In that sense, he has no other choice but to grasp at straws and do his best to forge alliances that would allow him to strike at his enemies before they strike against them.

The idea that either Viserys III or Dany could ever make an honorable peace with Robert and his family also makes no sense. Robert took his throne by treason and murder of innocents. That is not something that can be forgiven even if they wanted to. It is like to expect from Bran and Rickon and Sansa and Arya to forget the Red Wedding and Theon's betrayal and just move on. That's not going to happen.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, as it turned it definitely benefitted Dany to be married to Drogo. It was a much happier marriage than Lysa-Jon or Cersei-Robert.

Sure, eventually it was but Dany's happiness was no concern of Viserys's. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Drogo is khal of the Dothraki. He may be a savage king but he is a king nonetheless. On that front he is very much suitable husband for Dany. There are the cultural differences and stuff but rank-wise this is not a bad match for Dany

I wasn't speaking to rank, I was speaking to cultural differences. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Brienne, like Arianne, was never commanded to marry. She was expected possibly even urged to make it work, etc. but her father never forced her. Not to mention that quite a few of her betrothals didn't work out because of the men involved rather than her.

Yep, that's what I was saying. So it isn't always the case that the male guardian thinks the woman's opinion on the matter is irrelevant. 

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, not every character has to be described as sympathetic nor do we need his inner thoughts to make good guesses what they are about. Viserys III was subjectively under the impression that Robert was out there to get him and Dany. We don't know whether he imagined those hired knives or whether there were attempts by freelance assassins on his life, but he does not only want the Iron Throne back because it is his right, but also because he has to destroy Robert and his family and allies to ensure that he and his sister and their children can hope to live to old age.

Maybe. We don't know if the hired knives are real or a product of Viserys's imagination & illusions of grandeur. We can make a guess though. I, personally, find it much more likely that there were no hired knives. There is quite a bit of evidence pointing in that direction. 

I suppose it isn't his fault he is mentally ill & for that I am sympathetic toward him, but that is nothing to do with Daenerys. 

I don't recall a word of his indicating he wants the IT for any reason other than power, let alone because he wants for them to be able to live to old age. 

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that he could have just settled down and lived the life of an eccentric exiled king is just not realistic. That's like imagining that the Stark children could make a peace with Roose and Ramsay that does not involve them being murdered, castrated, or forced to join orders they might not want to join

No, I'm not suggesting he make peace with Robert or anything of the sort. He definitely could have lived life exiled. He was under absolutely no obligation or force to attempt to retake the IT. 

It's more akin to Arya making a life for herself in Braavos, Jon continuing his life at the wall, Rickon making a life for himself in Skagos or wherever he is. All of which are possible. 

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys and Dany would have to be every reason to afraid for their lives while Robert and his family still sat on the Iron Throne. Possibly even afterwards if some other usurper had toppled them because people don't forget that the Targaryens are the rightful rulers of Westeros.

Being afraid for their lives does not necessitate an attempted retaking of the IT & it certainly doesn't necessitate marrying his sister to a Dothraki khal. 

Robert made no attempt on their lives until Dany was married to Drogo & it became apparent that a plan was being formed & an army gathered to attempt to retake the throne. So, no they didn't have any reason to be afraid for their lives from the crown before that. 

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

that sense, he has no other choice but to grasp at straws and do his best to forge alliances that would allow him to strike at his enemies before they strike against them

Not true, because like I said he wasn't facing any threat to his or Dany's life prior to the marriage. If he imagined one that's his own doings. 

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that either Viserys III or Dany could ever make an honorable peace with Robert and his family also makes no sense

Never said any such thing. 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert took his throne by treason and murder of innocents

Doesn't matter to what we are speaking on. 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not something that can be forgiven even if they wanted to.

Not true either. They can forgive it if they choose to. Forgiveness only depends on what you choose to forgive. At any rate I'm not saying they would or wouldn't have to forgive anything. I'm saying there were other options & choices available to Viserys. Whether or not he wanted them. A choice he doesn't like is not the same as having no choice. 

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is like to expect from Bran and Rickon and Sansa and Arya to forget the Red Wedding and Theon's betrayal and just move on. That's not going to happen

Well, I expected no such thing, nor did I even suggest it. But just because it isn't like to happen doesn't mean it cannot happen or it isn't within their capability to do it. 

Viserys chose the route he took. He was not forced, it was not the only chose he could make. Daenerys had no choice in the matter & was forced. 

[Wm Portnoy]

14 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So at first glance Viserys seems like a pretty big douche, and if we're being honest he kinda is. But I still think he's a tragic and understandable character. Put it this way, sine he was probably old enough to remember he has been a ,,king". However what kind of king? He was forced to run around Essos out of fear of being assassinated, forced to be humbled by cheese mongers, being treated like some sort of freak by everybody, and even having to sell his crown, the one thing his mother left him, a mother which we have no reason not to think he deeply loved. So with all that being taken into consideration, is it that weird that he took out all his anger on Dany, who was the only one lower in the food chain then he was. Is it really that weird that he became so entitled and started to freak out when he lost even the small modicum of power in the Dothraki Sea? So what do you think? Is Viserys a tragic and understandable character or is he just a douche?

Prince Viserys was an angry young man but he is far from evil.  Picture a young man who was raised in luxury, told he would inherit papa's throne, and waited on by servants.  All that was taken from him.  No fault on his part.  He was forced to live overseas and beg for food and shelter.  All the while taking care of a little sister.  He was subjected to ridicule and humiliation.  Throughout all of that, he never murdered anyone.  I say Prince Viserys handled his lot better than somebody like Theon.  He was not the sharpest of blades but ahead of Theon in the IQ department, in my opinion. 

Viserys is completely justified to have ambitions to try to get his kingdom back.  I may disagree with his methods.  Marrying your sister off to a foreign horse lord is not cool with me.  I would not have done that.  But put this into context.  Rickard was willing to marry Lyanna off to a man who would never make her happy. 

Viserys has as much right as the Starks to want their lands back.  The Targaryens built King's Landing and Westeros.  I do not blame Viserys for wanting to get that back. 

 

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I wasn't speaking to rank, I was speaking to cultural differences. 

You made it sound as it it were inappropriate that Dany marry Drogo, that this was something other than a marriage among nobility and royalty. But cultural differences aside, that's just as appropriate as Viserys II and Larra Rogare or the Valyrian dragonlord and the YiTish emperor. It might not happen all that often but it is royalty or effective royalty marrying royalty.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yep, that's what I was saying. So it isn't always the case that the male guardian thinks the woman's opinion on the matter is irrelevant. 

Well, a father who is nice to his daughter and does not force doesn't force her. One who commands her to marry commands her to marry. If no command is given one cannot really fret about it, can one?

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe. We don't know if the hired knives are real or a product of Viserys's imagination & illusions of grandeur. We can make a guess though. I, personally, find it much more likely that there were no hired knives. There is quite a bit of evidence pointing in that direction. 

There is actually no evidence since we don't know about those attempts Viserys mentions. He should be able to know whether people tried to murder or not, no? It seems as if Robert never directly commanded anyone to kill Viserys and Dany, but he could have had a price on their head for a time, or it people could have realized that Robert might reward them if they brought him their heads.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I suppose it isn't his fault he is mentally ill & for that I am sympathetic toward him, but that is nothing to do with Daenerys. 

Viserys III wasn't really 'mentally ill'. He was somewhat paranoid and under a lot of stress and pretty dumb, but he wasn't mad.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't recall a word of his indicating he wants the IT for any reason other than power, let alone because he wants for them to be able to live to old age. 

He said to Dany he is trying to enable them to get home. He just wants to back home in the castle that belongs to him. He feels threatened and insecure living in foreign lands and at the expense of ambitious hosts.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No, I'm not suggesting he make peace with Robert or anything of the sort. He definitely could have lived life exiled. He was under absolutely no obligation or force to attempt to retake the IT. 

Of course he was. That's what it means to be a royal or noble in this world. If you family is attacked, you strike back and do your best to kill the attacker. Aristocratic honor demands that, it is the life blood of these people. They all follow this kind of reasoning, even Doran Martell does. He doesn't want to endanger Dorne if it can be helped, but his heart's desire is the utter destruction of Lord Tywin and all he built because of what they did to his sister.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's more akin to Arya making a life for herself in Braavos, Jon continuing his life at the wall, Rickon making a life for himself in Skagos or wherever he is. All of which are possible. 

It is not possible for any of the Starks to live under their real names anywhere. They have to retake what was taken from them or fear to be killed once their enemies learn where they are. They could try to change their identities, of course, but that would cowardice ... and isn't the kind of thing people like Viserys III and Dany could do.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Being afraid for their lives does not necessitate an attempted retaking of the IT & it certainly doesn't necessitate marrying his sister to a Dothraki khal. 

Sure, because the way to end that fear is to destroy your enemies. You can sleep safe and sound when all your enemies are dead, can't you? If the Dothraki khal can help you get what you want then it makes sense to arrange such a marriage, no?

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Robert made no attempt on their lives until Dany was married to Drogo & it became apparent that a plan was being formed & an army gathered to attempt to retake the throne. So, no they didn't have any reason to be afraid for their lives from the crown before that. 

That is actually wrong. Robert had no clue about any 'army' or 'invasion plan' - all he had was news about Dany's wedding and her pregnancy.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not true, because like I said he wasn't facing any threat to his or Dany's life prior to the marriage. If he imagined one that's his own doings. 

That is like saying Rickon and Bran 'imagine' that Ramsay might kill them if he happened to meet them.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not true either. They can forgive it if they choose to. Forgiveness only depends on what you choose to forgive. At any rate I'm not saying they would or wouldn't have to forgive anything. I'm saying there were other options & choices available to Viserys. Whether or not he wanted them. A choice he doesn't like is not the same as having no choice. 

This is all irrelevant. I could tell the evil usurper who deposed my father a hundred times 'I don't want that throne and I'm no threat to you' and he still doesn't have to believe me ... or rather: I would have no way of forcing him to believe me. Meaning doing that would mean to risk my life and that of my little sister.

Viserys III was under no obligation to so much as consider to forgive a pig like Robert.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, I expected no such thing, nor did I even suggest it. But just because it isn't like to happen doesn't mean it cannot happen or it isn't within their capability to do it. 

Viserys chose the route he took. He was not forced, it was not the only chose he could make. Daenerys had no choice in the matter & was forced. 

LOL, if you consider suicide or murder good alternatives then, yes, he did have other options. Aside from that his only choice was to try to get back what was his by right and blood, and punish all those who took it from him.

These people operate within a feudal aristocratic mindset. Trying to treat them like modern people makes no sense. When somebody does the things to your family Robert did to Viserys and Dany there is only one option: Do everything in your power to destroy and punish your enemies. That is literally your only choice if your are nobility or royalty.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You made it sound as it it were inappropriate that Dany marry Drogo, that this was something other than a marriage among nobility and royalty. But cultural differences aside, that's just as appropriate as Viserys II and Larra Rogare or the Valyrian dragonlord and the YiTish emperor. It might not happen all that often but it is royalty or effective royalty marrying royalty

That's not how I meant to make it sound. You said it was no different & I was saying it is kind of different because another high-born girl in Dany's position would have expected to be married to another noble, whose life would be luxury & gentle in comparison to life among the Dothraki. 

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, a father who is nice to his daughter and does not force doesn't force her. One who commands her to marry commands her to marry. If no command is given one cannot really fret about it, can one

I'm not really following. You said they would always think the daughter/sisters opinions were irrelevant. I was just saying that's not always the case. There would be & are some men who do take their daughter/sisters opinion into account. 

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is actually no evidence since we don't know about those attempts Viserys mentions. He should be able to know whether people tried to murder or not, no? It seems as if Robert never directly commanded anyone to kill Viserys and Dany, but he could have had a price on their head for a time, or it people could have realized that Robert might reward them if they brought him their heads.

Well, there is the fact that Dany never saw any of these supposed hired knives. We know Robert says he hasn't hired any one because Jon Arryn talks him out of it. We have no recollection of Viserys of any instance where someone came after him. Also, iirc, Illyrio kind of smirks when Viserys says he has had people after him. So there is some evidence. 

There could have been a price on their head or someone could have gathered they could get in Robert's favor by killing them but that we have no evidence for. 

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys III wasn't really 'mentally ill'. He was somewhat paranoid and under a lot of stress and pretty dumb, but he wasn't mad

Well the alternative is that he lied about the hired knives since there is no evidence of any

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He said to Dany he is trying to enable them to get home. He just wants to back home in the castle that belongs to him. He feels threatened and insecure living in foreign lands and at the expense of ambitious hosts.

Yes he says he wants to go home, he doesn't say why. It may be what you say but I think that's just assumption. 

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course he was. That's what it means to be a royal or noble in this world. If you family is attacked, you strike back and do your best to kill the attacker. Aristocratic honor demands that, it is the life blood of these people. They all follow this kind of reasoning, even Doran Martell does. He doesn't want to endanger Dorne if it can be helped, but his heart's desire is the utter destruction of Lord Tywin and all he built because of what they did to his sister

Regardless of what honor demands there are still choices available as evidenced by Doran, who, for all his supposed plotting, has not done yet done a thing. What is expected of you does not equal the only choice available to you. 

I don't fault Viserys for wanting it, I disagree with the assertion that his only choice is to try to retake the IT & that his only route by which to do so is to marry Dany to Drogo. 

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not possible for any of the Starks to live under their real names anywhere. They have to retake what was taken from them or fear to be killed once their enemies learn where they are. They could try to change their identities, of course, but that would cowardice ... and isn't the kind of thing people like Viserys III and Dany could do.

Cowardice is an option available to Viserys & the Starks. I would suggest taking it, at least until they have a viable way to reclaim what is theirs. But either way it's another option. Again, disliking the options doesn't mean the one you like is the only one available. 

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, because the way to end that fear is to destroy your enemies. You can sleep safe and sound when all your enemies are dead, can't you? If the Dothraki khal can help you get what you want then it makes sense to arrange such a marriage, no?

Yep, it does. But he could have chose to wait for a better opportunity, he could have tried to gain allies through a marriage with Dany & Quentyn, perhaps, he could have chose to continue to live in fear & not sleep sound. 

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is actually wrong. Robert had no clue about any 'army' or 'invasion plan' - all he had was news about Dany's wedding and her pregnancy

He had a clue because he discussed with Ned what they should do if a horde of Dothraki screamers come across the waters to Westeros. Ned replies they will push them back into the sea. 

He doesn't know their plans for certain, no. But he can see Viserys has just gained a large army & it doesn't take a genius to figure out what that might mean & as it turns out, Robert was right, that was the plan. 

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is like saying Rickon and Bran 'imagine' that Ramsay might kill them if he happened to meet them

Lol! No. Viserys didn't say I fear Robert might kill me if he happens to meet me. He says he has ran from hired knives. There is nothing to suggest this is the truth & there are things to suggest he has imagined it or lied about it. So no, not at all the same. 

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This is all irrelevant. I could tell the evil usurper who deposed my father a hundred times 'I don't want that throne and I'm no threat to you' and he still doesn't have to believe me ... or rather: I would have no way of forcing him to believe me. Meaning doing that would mean to risk my life and that of my little sister.

So? You said "this is not something that can be forgiven even if they wanted to" nothing of convincing Robert that he is forgiven. They most certainly can choose to forgive if that's what they want to do. 

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys III was under no obligation to so much as consider to forgive a pig like Robert.

I didn't say he was. 

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, if you consider suicide or murder good alternatives then, yes, he did have other options. Aside from that his only choice was to try to get back what was his by right and blood, and punish all those who took it from him.

That isn't true. He had other options, I've listed some. 

Even if he chose to try to take it back he wasn't forced to make that decision nor was he forced to take the route he did to try to get there. 

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

These people operate within a feudal aristocratic mindset. Trying to treat them like modern people makes no sense. When somebody does the things to your family Robert did to Viserys and Dany there is only one option: Do everything in your power to destroy and punish your enemies. That is literally your only choice if your are nobility or royalty

It has nothing to do with a modern mindset. There are other options, Viserys chose the ones he did.