Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM did write in ADwD that the next book would see everybody back [and shivering] in Westeros

GRRM said and wrote a lot of things.

Daenerys was born on Dragonstone, but until the end of ADwD she has spent her life in Essos. 

Fully ignoring the tv version, GRRMs initial outline, and the vague possibility of the story getting wrapped up in two books, my current favorite ending has Daenerys realizing that she belongs to Essos. Staying there, ending slavery, and maybe going to Ass'hai (I know it is not supposed to happen) and Valyria is what I want to read.

[Black Crow]

I've a lot of sympathy with that one, notwithstanding GRRM's early synopses. [It also used to be a favourite in another place, where her arrival in Westeros was seen as a threat to you know who ending up on the throne.

I think the problem may be the late decision to add the dragons.

As I read that dedication to whoever was responsible for persuading GRRM to add the dragons, the original concept probably revolved around Winterfell, the Starks and their nasty family secret in the woodshed crypts. Once the dragons came, like Topsy the story grewed in what were probably unexpected and unintended directions

[LynnS]

 

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I've a lot of sympathy with that one, notwithstanding GRRM's early synopses. [It also used to be a favourite in another place, where her arrival in Westeros was seen as a threat to you know who ending up on the throne.

I think the problem may be the late decision to add the dragons.

As I read that dedication to whoever was responsible for persuading GRRM to add the dragons, the original concept probably revolved around Winterfell, the Starks and their nasty family secret in the woodshed crypts. Once the dragons came, like Topsy the story grewed in what were probably unexpected and unintended directions

There have always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm.

[LynnS]

Question.  The wikis says this about Lyanna'a appearance: 

Quote

Lyanna is described by most people as beautiful.[7][8] Though Maester Yandel describes her as "a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty",[9] Kevan Lannister recalls Lyanna having a "wild beauty" about her.[10] According to her brother Eddard Stark, Lyanna had been a child-woman of surpassing loveliness.[7] She was slim of frame.[11] Arya Stark, with her brown hair, long face and grey eyes,[12][13] resembles Lyanna in appearance, according to Eddard.[8] Margaery Tyrell, also brown of hair,[14] is believed by some to resemble Lyanna, though Eddard disagrees.[14]

Where does it say in the text that Lyanna had grey eyes?  Are we assuming that she had grey eyes because Arya's eyes are grey. I only get from the text that she resembles Lyanna.  Did I miss something? 

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Question.  The wikis says this about Lyanna'a appearance: 

Where does it say in the text that Lyanna had grey eyes?  Are we assuming that she had grey eyes because Arya's eyes are grey. I only get from the text that she resembles Lyanna.  Did I miss something? 

If Lyanna would have had green eyes, the comparison with Arya (brown hair, long face, grey eyes) wouldn't make sense, would it?

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, alienarea said:

If Lyanna would have had green eyes, the comparison with Arya (brown hair, long face, grey eyes) wouldn't make sense, would it?

You can resemble someone in your bone structure and facial features (and behavior) without having the same eye color.

[alienarea]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

You can resemble someone in your bone structure and facial features (and behavior) without having the same eye color.

Sure. But why would GRRM mention the color of Arya's eyes in this comparison if Lyanna's eyes hadn't been grey as well?

He often reveals things like this indirectly.

[Melifeather]

On 8/23/2020 at 5:35 AM, LynnS said:

Question.  The wikis says this about Lyanna'a appearance: 

Where does it say in the text that Lyanna had grey eyes?  Are we assuming that she had grey eyes because Arya's eyes are grey. I only get from the text that she resembles Lyanna.  Did I miss something? 

I think the “Stark look” is brown hair, long face, and grey eyes. If her eyes were not grey I would think it’d be remarked upon like she had the Stark look with a long face and brown hair but with green eyes in place of the grey.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

"No," Jon Snow said quietly. "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark." Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

Quote

A Game ofThrones - Sansa I

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

 

[LynnS]

God! Pink Floyd never gets old.  I got a new Bose CD player and I'm rocking my house today.

On The Turning Away Lyrics

On the turning away
From the pale and downtrodden
And the words they say which we won't understand
"Don't accept that what's happening
Is just a case of others' suffering
Or you'll find that you're joining in
The turning away"

It's a sin that somehow
Light is changing to shadow
And casting its shroud over all we have known
Unaware how the ranks have grown
Driven on by a heart of stone
We could find that we're all alone
In the dream of the proud

On the wings of the night
As the daytime is stirring
Where the speechless unite in a silent accord
Using words you will find are strange
Mesmerised as they light the flame
Feel the new wind of change
On the wings of the night

No more turning away
From the weak and the weary
No more turning away from the coldness inside
Just a world that we all must share
It's not enough just to stand and stare
Is it only a dream that there'll be
No more turning away?

[Lady Dyanna]

Sorry guys. I seem to have gotten sucked down a rabbit hole on these rainbows. I swear I’ll have something soon. Working on it now. 

[LynnS]

Need a laugh?  

 

[Black Crow]

On 8/24/2020 at 6:35 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Sorry guys. I seem to have gotten sucked down a rabbit hole on these rainbows. I swear I’ll have something soon. Working on it now. 

Don't worry. I normally like to run a tight ship with 20 pages/400 posts to each heresy, but it won't do any harm to overrun now and again, especially when its in a good cause 

[Melifeather]

This article was brought to my attention today: GRRM reveals Beric was a wight raised by fire.

Thoughts?

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

This article was brought to my attention today: GRRM reveals Beric was a wight raised by fire.

Thoughts?

Modern writers are ignorant and stupid? Actually, I'd expect she's neither, it just pays for her to write as though she is.

Of course he's a wight. In fantasy literature 'wights' have long been sentient ex-human undead (as apposed to zombies, ghouls and skeletons which are usually less sentient, with some variations, or ghosts which are incorporeal).
Which precisely describes Beric.

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

This article was brought to my attention today: GRRM reveals Beric was a wight raised by fire.

Thoughts?

I don't like it.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

This article was brought to my attention today: GRRM reveals Beric was a wight raised by fire.

Thoughts?

I had a look at the original interview:

https://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/

Quote

And as I got older and considered it more, it also seemed to me that death doesn’t make you more powerful. That’s, in some ways, me talking to Tolkien in the dialogue, saying, “Yeah, if someone comes back from being dead, especially if they suffer a violent, traumatic death, they’re not going to come back as nice as ever.” That’s what I was trying to do, and am still trying to do, with the Lady Stoneheart character.

And Jon Snow, too, is drained by the experience of coming back from the dead on the show.

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

This doesn't say that Jon will be resurrected by fire exactly; but getting back to the fire and ice thing.  I'd say Beric is equivalent to Coldhands. 

ETA - Oddly it's Beric who raises Catelyn rather than Thoros.  I wonder is Coldhands can do the same.

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I had a look at the original interview:

https://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/

This doesn't say that Jon will be resurrected by fire exactly; but getting back to the fire and ice thing.  I'd say Beric is equivalent to Coldhands. 

ETA - Oddly it's Beric who raises Catelyn rather than Thoros.  I wonder is Coldhands can do the same.

Both Melisandre and Lady Stoneheart have red eyes which suggest fire magic was used just as blue eyes indicate ice magic. Does the text ever describe Beric’s eyes as being red?

If eye color indicates the type of magic used then water magic and earth magic should have their own eye colors.

Greenseers are said to have either red or green eyes, but if you’re a greenseer by birth can you still be considered a wight?

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, corbon said:

Modern writers are ignorant and stupid? Actually, I'd expect she's neither, it just pays for her to write as though she is.

Of course he's a wight. In fantasy literature 'wights' have long been sentient ex-human undead (as apposed to zombies, ghouls and skeletons which are usually less sentient, with some variations, or ghosts which are incorporeal).
Which precisely describes Beric.

Exactly. The trouble with this article is that its written about the mummer's version, not the books by some dork who has never bothered to read the books.

In the real story, Jon has yet to be resurrected by anybody, so we don't yet know how or when it will happen - or by who.

We've had some good discussions on this and I'd expect Coldhands to be the precursor rather than Beric with fire in his veins. The rear point GRRM was making in that ancient SSM was that resurrection comes with a big price and that if Jon is indeed kissed better , by Ice or by Fire, he won't be carrying on as if nothing happened.

[Melifeather]

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

ETA - Oddly it's Beric who raises Catelyn rather than Thoros.  I wonder is Coldhands can do the same.

Aren't Coldhand's eyes black?

The mummer's show revealed Melisandre's true appearance as being an old, grizzled woman, but perhaps that's not quite right? If she is a wight and uses a glamor to disguise her appearance, then maybe her true appearance is a corpse? This would give more credence to the Nights Queen being able to give birth if the NQ were also a wight.