Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

@LynnS It just dawned on me.... Here I am talking about liminal spaces. And there you are talking about death. Pretty similar. But I think the rainbow is the “doorway” between life and death. That in between space. And I need to read again, cuz it’s been several years. This might be where your theories on the Wall fit in. Because what is the wall but a crystal? Makes it a rainbow too. A great hinge of the world.... the passageway between life and death. Cue the weeping black gate with the exchange of three lives back and three lives out.... So yeah.... Bran has been shown symbolically to give up his soul at least twice now. First to the 3EC with the corn and now going through the black gate. Not looking too good for Bran. Kinda leaves the wildings in a strange place too. 

Bran certainly describes the Wall as a shining blue crystal and Jon describes it as alive with light.  Although only in Melisandres part of the spectrum. 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

The Black Gate seems to be one of those liminal places.  Bran says that if someone could live a thousand years, they would look as old as the Gate.  The Gate sheds a warm salty tear.  The Gate itself occupies the place between life and death. 

[LynnS]

Mel also says she can weave with light to make a glamor.  The kindly man say essentially the same thing to Arya.  While looking up light refraction with rubies, I came across this:

Quote

Refraction of light waves is due to the change in speed of light. When light travels from one medium to another, there may be a speed change which would then cause the light to bend and go in a different direction. 

https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2007/GaryChang.shtml

I also wonder if Mel can 'bend' sound when she breaks the glamor.  \

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bending+sound&docid=608048785132291783&mid=8087344E99594343208B8087344E99594343208B&view=detail&FORM=VIRE 

Mel says a word that sounds different to Mance and Jon like a worm turning in the ear.

Yanni or Laurel?

https://time.com/5278817/yanny-or-laurel-audio-clip-debate/#:~:text=Here%2C the Yanny%2FLaurel sound is meant to be,either a vase or two faces in profile.

[LynnS]

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/

[alienarea]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/

Vic(tarion) and Mel(isandre) and Ty(rion) and Arya still in Bravos.

Maybe he's cool and kills of Jon and Daenerys early.

[Lady Dyanna]

God help me, why do I have the sudden urge to ask where Rioff is? 

[Frey family reunion]

On 8/16/2020 at 2:11 AM, alienarea said:

Vic(tarion) and Mel(isandre) and Ty(rion) and Arya still in Bravos.

Maybe he's cool and kills of Jon and Daenerys early.

Ouch that was tough to read.  It almost read like an apology letter to his fans, as to why his books have been in limbo.  Most people don't have three places they can choose to live in.  And most people can shut the door to their home office and request not to be disturbed while they write.

[LynnS]

On 8/17/2020 at 4:09 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Ouch that was tough to read.  It almost read like an apology letter to his fans, as to why his books have been in limbo.  Most people don't have three places they can choose to live in.  And most people can shut the door to their home office and request not to be disturbed while they write.

I wonder if he is working on POV intersections between Mel and Sam; in other words, Sam's return to the Castle Black.  And  Tyrion crossing paths with Victarion (and Moqorro).  Which would be interesting because of Moqorro words to Tyrion.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

   

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wonder if he is working on POV intersections between Mel and Sam; in other words, Sam's return to the Castle Black.  And  Tyrion crossing paths with Victarion (and Moqorro).  Which would be interesting because of Moqorro words to Tyrion.

   

His words to Tyrion imply that Tyrion is a dragon, too. 

[LynnS]

19 minutes ago, alienarea said:

His words to Tyrion imply that Tyrion is a dragon, too. 

I'm not sure that dragons are known for snarling.  Isn't that characteristic of wolves and big cats?

[alienarea]

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you.

I was going from this, it's ambiguous, I know. Is "And you." an add-on to dragons, i.e. Tyrion is  neither old nor young, neither true nor false, neither bright nor dark, but a dragon? 

Or, he isn't a dragon, but in the middle of them?

- old dragon: Aemon

- young: Daenerys

- true: Jon (?)

- false: Viserion (?)

- bright: Rhaegal (?)

- dark: Drogon (?)

About snarling, I'm not a native speaker, it could be dog-like making a threatening sound or showing the teeth (which dragons might do, I never met one lol).

 

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Or, he isn't a dragon, but in the middle of them?

Here's part definition of snarling which could describe the situation  for Tyrion:

snarl 2

  (snärl)

n.

1. A tangled mass, as of hair or yarn.

2. A confused, complicated, or tangled situation: a traffic snarl.

v. snarled, snarl·ing, snarls

v.intr.

To become tangled or confused.

v.tr.

1. To tangle or knot (hair, for example).

2. To confuse or complicate: Snow snarled the morning commute.

 

[Back in Black-Snow]

He is just telling Tyrion a vague role that he plays in all of it. And you. He will be in the middle of it all, but that doesn't make him a dragon, or wolf, or lion. It just means that he will cast a big shadow over the remaining part of the story.
Or Moqorro may be full of shit. Either way, this doesn't tell us anything about Tyrion, whether he lives or dies, whether he is lion, dragon, etc., except to say that his shadow is in the middle of all it.

 

[LynnS]

On 8/19/2020 at 4:42 PM, alienarea said:

I was going from this, it's ambiguous, I know. Is "And you." an add-on to dragons, i.e. Tyrion is  neither old nor young, neither true nor false, neither bright nor dark, but a dragon? 

Or, he isn't a dragon, but in the middle of them?

- old dragon: Aemon

- young: Daenerys

- true: Jon (?)

- false: Viserion (?)

- bright: Rhaegal (?)

- dark: Drogon (?)

About snarling, I'm not a native speaker, it could be dog-like making a threatening sound or showing the teeth (which dragons might do, I never met one lol).

It's interesting that George is pairing them up.  That brings to mind Quaithe's warning to Dany where the 'pilgrims' are paired.

To what Moqorro sees in the fire; the first one: dragons young and old.  George has also said that his work has many levels of interpretation (paraphrasing here) and perhaps several correct interpretations.

- Young and old dragons could literally be Dany's young dragons and an old dragon we haven't yet seen.  Possibly the fully grown dragon Dany sees in her dragon dream when she is transformed.  The singing dragon.  Perhaps this is the same dragon that other Targaryens have seen in their dragon dreams.

- Second, Moqorro could be referring to Dany herself as both young and old; in the same sense that Bran is referred to as an old man by Jojen.

Just waiting on the next OP.  By now you know that I am a Cello-Headbanger-Crossover-Junkie.  

 

[LynnS]

On the second, dragons true and false, besides the obvious question of fAegon  or who is true dragonblood/dragonseed; there is the general question of truth and falsehood.  Like Bran, something that Dany has to discover.  Also, whether or not Dany herself can be both true and false given a set of circumstances.   

From Moqorro's point of view;  Dany is the chosen one, the true dragon.  He also strikes me as a dangerous friend, as Victarion is about to learn.  Although he seems fair from the readers pov; he also feels foul underneath. In other words, he feels both true and false.  

[Melifeather]

IMO Young Griff really is Aegon and he represents the true dragon, because I still don't believe Daenerys will come to Westeros by the end of the story. Daenerys role in the story is as the Mother of Dragons, the origin, and represents the dragonlords on the wheel of time. 

I think Victarion is the false dragon as I suspect he will be successful in using his dragonhorn to bind one or two dragons to him. Then he will bring them to Westeros in an attempt to conquer, but will be defeated somehow by Bran and his "weirwood arrow". I don't have a clear theory on how this will materialize. I just think it will be similar to how the historical Brandon that wanted to kill Aegon's dragons with weirwood arrows only to be stopped when his brother Torrhen kneeled. This time there is no Stark in Winterfell to kneel to the dragon, so Bran will have no reason not to destroy the conquering invader.

The Greyjoys are destined to repeat a Blackfyre-type attempt. They parallel much of the Targaryen family, but their attempt will fail, because Victarion is "playing the role" of Aegor Rivers aka Bittersteel. Of course, this is my interpretation gathered by deciphering the titled chapters, in particular AFFC chapter 29 The Reaver.

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

IMO Young Griff really is Aegon and he represents the true dragon, because I still don't believe Daenerys will come to Westeros by the end of the story. Daenerys role in the story is as the Mother of Dragons, the origin, and represents the dragonlords on the wheel of time. 

I really do think it depends on the frame that is used by readers and characters.  For Moqorro, Dany would be the true dragon, but what criteria does he use? What does this have to do with the cult of the Red Lot.  I also think Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and he has been raised to be true in his character or true to Rhaegar's intentions for the realm.  Aegon wouldn't fit Moqorro's criteria for the true dragon. He is raised in the faith of the seven and not thfiery god.

I think that for Dany ,her ability to hatch dragons, to be the mother of dragons is proof of her spiritual cleansing (that Mel speaks of); along with Dany's transformation into the dragon in her dreams is the proof that the Red Lot that she is the true dragon that they have been waiting for.  I think they know more about dragons and dragon gods than has been revealed.  

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I really do think it depends on the frame that is used by readers and characters.  For Moqorro, Dany would be the true dragon, but what criteria does he use? What does this have to do with the cult of the Red Lot.  I also think Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and he has been raised to be true in his character or true to Rhaegar's intentions for the realm.  Aegon wouldn't fit Moqorro's criteria for the true dragon. He is raised in the faith of the seven and not thfiery god.

I think that for Dany ,her ability to hatch dragons, to be the mother of dragons is proof of her spiritual cleansing (that Mel speaks of); along with Dany's transformation into the dragon in her dreams is the proof that the Red Lot that she is the true dragon that they have been waiting for.  I think they know more about dragons and dragon gods than has been revealed.  

True, Moqorro doesn't know who Young Griff is, but as Melisandre already demonstrated, priests and priestesses can identify the wrong person as fulfilling a role. Mel believed with a passion that Stannis was Azor Ahai. Moqorro believes Dany is a savior because of her dragons, but every historical account from the past has reoccurred. One of the historical stories that hasn't been explored yet is this one:
 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"The tale of our beginnings. If you would be one of us, you had best know who we are and how we came to be. Men may whisper of the Faceless Men of Braavos, but we are older than the Secret City. Before the Titan rose, before the Unmasking of Uthero, before the Founding, we were. We have flowered in Braavos amongst these northern fogs, but we first took root in Valyria, amongst the wretched slaves who toiled in the deep mines beneath the Fourteen Flames that lit the Freehold's nights of old. Most mines are dank and chilly places, cut from cold dead stone, but the Fourteen Flames were living mountains with veins of molten rock and hearts of fire. So the mines of old Valyria were always hot, and they grew hotter as the shafts were driven deeper, ever deeper. The slaves toiled in an oven. The rocks around them were too hot to touch. The air stank of brimstone and would sear their lungs as they breathed it. The soles of their feet would burn and blister, even through the thickest sandals. Sometimes, when they broke through a wall in search of gold, they would find steam instead, or boiling water, or molten rock. Certain shafts were cut so low that the slaves could not stand upright, but had to crawl or bend. And there were wyrms in that red darkness too."

"Earthworms?" she asked, frowning.

"Firewyrms. Some say they are akin to dragons, for wyrms breathe fire too. Instead of soaring through the sky, they bore through stone and soil. If the old tales can be believed, there were wyrms amongst the Fourteen Flames even before the dragons came. The young ones are no larger than that skinny arm of yours, but they can grow to monstrous size and have no love for men."

"Did they kill the slaves?"

"Burnt and blackened corpses were oft found in shafts where the rocks were cracked or full of holes. Yet still the mines drove deeper. Slaves perished by the score, but their masters did not care. Red gold and yellow gold and silver were reckoned to be more precious than the lives of slaves, for slaves were cheap in the old Freehold. During war, the Valyrians took them by the thousands. In times of peace they bred them, though only the worst were sent down to die in the red darkness."

"Didn't the slaves rise up and fight?"

"Some did," he said. "Revolts were common in the mines, but few accomplished much. The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril. The first Faceless Man was one who did."

"Who was he?" Arya blurted, before she stopped to think.

No one," he answered. "Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder's son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows. Whoever he was, he moved amongst the slaves and would hear them at their prayers. Men of a hundred different nations labored in the mines, and each prayed to his own god in his own tongue, yet all were praying for the same thing. It was release they asked for, an end to pain. A small thing, and simple. Yet their gods made no answer, and their suffering went on. Are their gods all deaf? he wondered . . . until a realization came upon him, one night in the red darkness.

"All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces . . . and he was that god's instrument. That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The first gift had been given."

Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!"

"He would bring the gift to them as well . . . but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one." He cocked his head. "And who are you, child?"

 

One of Daenerys' titles is "Breaker of Chains". She did the reverse of what the historical dragonlords did: she freed the slaves. 

WHO exactly DOES Moqorro and Benerro believe Daenerys IS? Do they care if she invades Westeros? Melisandre is looking for Azor Ahai. Maybe that’s who Benero and Moqorro are looking for too? Azor Ahai is an Essos’ hero - nothing to do with Westeros.

[Melifeather]

Benerro's face is tattooed with flames signifying he is a slave. The ruling Triarchs of Volantis are afraid of him, because he preaches that Daenerys is Azor Ahai reborn, and three out of every four residents of Volantis are slaves - they fear a revolt. Benerro sent Moqorro to Daenerys to be an adviser, but not so that she can go to Westeros, but so that she can free all the slaves of Volantis. You have to wonder what Moqorro's intentions were when he told Victarion that he must claim the dragonhorn with blood if he's to bind dragons to his will. If Moqorro is an ally to Daenerys, then he might have other plans for Victarion other than to help him take the dragons away.

[alienarea]

28 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Benerro's face is tattooed with flames signifying he is a slave. The ruling Triarchs of Volantis are afraid of him, because he preaches that Daenerys is Azor Ahai reborn, and three out of every four residents of Volantis are slaves - they fear a revolt. Benerro sent Moqorro to Daenerys to be an adviser, but not so that she can go to Westeros, but so that she can free all the slaves of Volantis. You have to wonder what Moqorro's intentions were when he told Victarion that he must claim the dragonhorn with blood if he's to bind dragons to his will. If Moqorro is an ally to Daenerys, then he might have other plans for Victarion other than to help him take the dragons away.

If, and that is an if growing steadily, GRRM ever continues the story, I hope Daenerys stays in Essos.

[Black Crow]

GRRM did write in ADwD that the next book would see everybody back [and shivering] in Westeros