US Politics: Locking Up the Vote!

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Thanks. "WIthin the margin of error" makes sense.

No problem, and yeah.  The other reason I said it's "particularly" concerning when compared to the Kelly numbers is because if Kelly is up by that much and Biden is not, that suggests it's not just an outlier in terms of their sample for that specific poll just happened to be skewed toward GOP leaning voters.  Which obviously is going to happen sometimes with multiple random samples and is much less concerning.

[Guy Kilmore]

34 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Deadlines will always exist. We can debate their merit in each setting. But wouldn't the better solution to the problem you're discussing be to appropriate a lot more funds for children in need? 

This really seems to still boil down to a have and have nots argument, which is still as depressing as it was years ago. Minority households still earn pennies on the dollar compared to their white counterparts, and that even assumes they're a two parent household. The picture gets worse the more barriers you introduce. 

They will always exist, but did you read my link?  Current research is showing that homework either doesn't even teach lessons about holding deadlines or other behaviors. And in the cases where it does reinforce it is with already highly involved students, with the cost of increased anxiety and somatic issues.  I will be honest, the best research that I have recently seen to be supportive of homework is that it is effect is overall "meh".  I know my friends in education are seeing research showing that homework is detrimental/neutral to skill acquisition, decreases interesting in learning for children/parents, increases conflict between children/parents/teachers and increase psychological concerns in children/parents.    This is factoring for cultural and economic factors. 

It is interesting, I thought the same thing as you a couple of years ago, but actually reading some literature on it has me totally turned the corner.  Eliminating, or radically altering what homework is right now, looks like it would increase educational outcomes.

If you are REALLY worried about deadlines.  I imagine if the school is going to grade and give credit for homework, they are, there are deadlines for the end of the quarter and for high school.  And my guess is there is going to be deadlines for in class assessments.  

Two of the things that virtual education demonstrated, in my direct observation and those of my colleagues.  Good teachers are important.  There is a ton of dead time in schools.  My clients that are able to focus and "get shit done," are able to get the information they need from teachers and finish their assignments in around 3 hours.  It makes me really curious what is going on for the other 3 to 5 hours in the school day?

ETA: I do know the answer, or at least part of it.  When you have 30 kids to a classroom, your ability to give direction and attention is significantly decreased, that, in of itself, is a huge problem and why there are attempts at delegating learning.

[Castellan]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Are you aware that's she's a member of what some might call a cult in which she's literally assigned a "handmaid," and her and her husband had to swear allegiance for life to this shit? 

https://www.salon.com/2020/09/29/amy-coney-barrett-tied-to-far-right-religious-cult-that-believes-women-should-submit-to-husbands_partner/

well yes I am that was why I used the term but I did think she deliberately made herself a dull washed out target in the hearings and couldn't help thinking that women in cults probably do that. As well, obviously as lawyers trying not to admit anything that could hurt them.

[ants]

25 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

.......

Two of the things that virtual education demonstrated, in my direct observation and those of my colleagues.  Good teachers are important.  There is a ton of dead time in schools.  My clients that are able to focus and "get shit done," are able to get the information they need from teachers and finish their assignments in around 3 hours.  It makes me really curious what is going on for the other 3 to 5 hours in the school day?

ETA: I do know the answer, or at least part of it.  When you have 30 kids to a classroom, your ability to give direction and attention is significantly decreased, that, in of itself, is a huge problem and why there are attempts at delegating learning.

My personal experience was that I finished whatever the teacher had set, and then read fiction waiting for the rest of the class to catch-up.  Or doodled.  And 99% of my teachers were fine with that because it was one less hassle for them.  

[Freshwater Spartan]

22 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

They will always exist, but did you read my link?  Current research is showing that homework either doesn't even teach lessons about holding deadlines or other behaviors. And in the cases where it does reinforce it is with already highly involved students, with the cost of increased anxiety and somatic issues.  I will be honest, the best research that I have recently seen to be supportive of homework is that it is effect is overall "meh".  I know my friends in education are seeing research showing that homework is detrimental/neutral to skill acquisition, decreases interesting in learning for children/parents, increases conflict between children/parents/teachers and increase psychological concerns in children/parents.    This is factoring for cultural and economic factors. 

It is interesting, I thought the same thing as you a couple of years ago, but actually reading some literature on it has me totally turned the corner.  Eliminating, or radically altering what homework is right now, looks like it would increase educational outcomes.

If you are REALLY worried about deadlines.  I imagine if the school is going to grade and give credit for homework, they are, there are deadlines for the end of the quarter and for high school.  And my guess is there is going to be deadlines for in class assessments.  

Two of the things that virtual education demonstrated, in my direct observation and those of my colleagues.  Good teachers are important.  There is a ton of dead time in schools.  My clients that are able to focus and "get shit done," are able to get the information they need from teachers and finish their assignments in around 3 hours.  It makes me really curious what is going on for the other 3 to 5 hours in the school day?

ETA: I do know the answer, or at least part of it.  When you have 30 kids to a classroom, your ability to give direction and attention is significantly decreased, that, in of itself, is a huge problem and why there are attempts at delegating learning.

Also keep in mind that  learning targets have been greatly reduced since spring. You look at your learning targets decide which ones are essential to focus on. Your standards are now  almost certainly cut in half. Then you examine how you normally meet those targets and figure out which activities can actually translate online and if there is anything else you can do. In any case you will find it's not possible to replicate the classroom experience and everything that goes on nearly as efficiently as face to face learning. If you are wondering why those other 3 hours aren't being noticed its because they might not be happening.Though the longer hybrid and virtual learning goes on the more effective and rich the learning will become.

I go back and forth on homework. Generally it's more meaningful to have learning take place in the classroom but it's not realistic to expect everything to be accomplished there. How many jobs anymore are only accomplished on the clock?  I do think teachers should always accept late work for at least some credit.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

50 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yes, basically.  Particularly in SC confirmation hearings, it's a way to affirm the nominee will not even consider overturning that precedent.  It's obviously arbitrary - and again subject to change/shift on a continuum.  I'm trying to think of a sports metaphor...ok, like at the trade deadline or something, a selling team would have a list of "untouchables" as opposed to those they're ready to purge in exchange for draft picks/controllable players/whatever.  But that doesn't mean those players are actually untouchable, just that it'd take the earth and the moon for someone to put together a package to get Mike Trout.

The obvious sports metaphor is a catch in football, and the subjective nature of a review.

[DMC]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

The obvious sports metaphor is a catch in football, and the subjective nature of a review.

That falsely poses justices as those officiating the game, when they are in actuality players.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

53 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

They will always exist, but did you read my link?  Current research is showing that homework either doesn't even teach lessons about holding deadlines or other behaviors. And in the cases where it does reinforce it is with already highly involved students, with the cost of increased anxiety and somatic issues.  I will be honest, the best research that I have recently seen to be supportive of homework is that it is effect is overall "meh".  I know my friends in education are seeing research showing that homework is detrimental/neutral to skill acquisition, decreases interesting in learning for children/parents, increases conflict between children/parents/teachers and increase psychological concerns in children/parents.    This is factoring for cultural and economic factors. 

It is interesting, I thought the same thing as you a couple of years ago, but actually reading some literature on it has me totally turned the corner.  Eliminating, or radically altering what homework is right now, looks like it would increase educational outcomes.

If you are REALLY worried about deadlines.  I imagine if the school is going to grade and give credit for homework, they are, there are deadlines for the end of the quarter and for high school.  And my guess is there is going to be deadlines for in class assessments.  

I did not, but I'll read it in a bit. However, I cannot agree with this at all. You're basically saying we should teach down to the worst students. And then when their parents bitch at you about their grades, you're just saying they don't need to turn their homework in on time the next time they receive an assignment. 

ETA:
 

Quote

Two of the things that virtual education demonstrated, in my direct observation and those of my colleagues.  Good teachers are important.  There is a ton of dead time in schools.  My clients that are able to focus and "get shit done," are able to get the information they need from teachers and finish their assignments in around 3 hours.  It makes me really curious what is going on for the other 3 to 5 hours in the school day?

ETA: I do know the answer, or at least part of it.  When you have 30 kids to a classroom, your ability to give direction and attention is significantly decreased, that, in of itself, is a huge problem and why there are attempts at delegating learning.

Virtual education is inferior to learning in a classroom, and it's harder to wrangle 30 kids online than it is if they're in your room. 
 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

52 minutes ago, Castellan said:

well yes I am that was why I used the term but I did think she deliberately made herself a dull washed out target in the hearings and couldn't help thinking that women in cults probably do that. As well, obviously as lawyers trying not to admit anything that could hurt them.

So dishonesty is the name of the game then, no?

@Ser Scot A Ellison, 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, DMC said:

That falsely poses justices as those officiating the game, when they are in actuality players.

What? Judges love to say they call balls and strikes. They are the officials. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

What? Judges love to say they call balls and strikes. They are the officials. 

Exactly my point.  That caricature is absolute bullshit.

[Guy Kilmore]

15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I did not, but I'll read it in a bit. However, I cannot agree with this at all. You're basically saying we should teach down to the worst students. And then when their parents bitch at you about their grades, you're just saying they don't need to turn their homework in on time the next time they receive an assignment. 

ETA:
 

Virtual education is inferior to learning in a classroom, and it's harder to wrangle 30 kids online than it is if they're in your room. 
 

That isn't what I am saying and your statement reveals your lack of insight and knowledge on this particular subject.  This is going farther afield than politics.

ETA:  I am not espousing the benefits of virtual education.

[Guy Kilmore]

28 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

Also keep in mind that  learning targets have been greatly reduced since spring. You look at your learning targets decide which ones are essential to focus on. Your standards are now  almost certainly cut in half. Then you examine how you normally meet those targets and figure out which activities can actually translate online and if there is anything else you can do. In any case you will find it's not possible to replicate the classroom experience and everything that goes on nearly as efficiently as face to face learning. If you are wondering why those other 3 hours aren't being noticed its because they might not be happening.Though the longer hybrid and virtual learning goes on the more effective and rich the learning will become.

I go back and forth on homework. Generally it's more meaningful to have learning take place in the classroom but it's not realistic to expect everything to be accomplished there. How many jobs anymore are only accomplished on the clock?  I do think teachers should always accept late work for at least some credit.

 

True, I do not dispute that.  Which is why I am curious.  The research regarding homework though has been going on for a couple of years.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, DMC said:

Exactly my point.  That caricature is absolute bullshit.

Officials like to admit they got it wrong? Who is the Fox ref who agrees with every call refs make, even when the receiver is like two feet out of bounds but they say it's a catch anyways? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

29 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

That isn't what I am saying and your statement reveals your lack of insight and knowledge on this particular subject.  This is going farther afield than politics

In the opening, "But not all students benefit." Pretty easy to figure out here. Not everyone benefits from a rigid type of education. Sure. Duh. But then to just say do away with homework? 

And no, it's not. This is rather political, as education policy has been for years. 

But here is the key:
 

Quote

Yet homework can be a problem at the other end of the socioeconomic spectrum as well. 

Which is specifically what I wrote before. The problem isn't homework, it's the means to deal with some of the challenges it proposes. Most of those outside of pure intelligence are rooted in SEC. Maybe fix that part first before judging the value of homework. 

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Officials like to admit they got it wrong? Who is the Fox ref who agrees with every call refs make, even when the receiver is like two feet out of bounds but they say it's a catch anyways? 

.....Huh?  The hell does this have to do with justices being participants in political and policy conflict rather than their fantasy posture of being "referees?"

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

.....Huh?  The hell does this have to do with justices being participants in political and policy conflict rather than their fantasy posture of being "referees?"

That they're humans, who err, and don't like admitting it. Why do you think you and Kal get into bitter debates in which you're just arguing the difference between lime green and forest green when a third party is just asking if you agree that leaf is green?

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

That they're humans, who err, and don't like admitting it.

That's still irrelevant to the point.

[Castellan]

 

1 hour ago, ants said:

My personal experience was that I finished whatever the teacher had set, and then read fiction waiting for the rest of the class to catch-up.  Or doodled.  And 99% of my teachers were fine with that because it was one less hassle for them.  

I was an A student and in either streamed classes (ie schools that ranked pupils by performance in classes from A to D) or unstreamed systems I do not remember spare time.

I do know that as part of teacher training (I never went ahead and taught) they said that 90% of class time should be students working not the teacher talking. I don't think that's 'dead time'. That could be doing an experiment, small group discussions, acting out scenes from a book, participating in a teacher led discussion, reading out answers and discussing them etc, not just individual working on set tasks.

Not to mention the social aspect of all those activities.

Just getting assignments and doing them sounds soul destroying to me.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

That's still irrelevant to the point.

Wait, are we actually agreeing, and just kind of yelling at each other?