The Dragon Requires Three Books

[CamiloRP]

28 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

As I said, Varys makes no claim of taking away anyone. YG himself does, and Varys merely confirms the story implicitly.

Well, yeah, but if I was gonna correct every single mistake he made we'd be here for ever. You seem to tho, I don't know how

 

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The first rule of ASoIaF theorycrafting is that EVERYONE is a secret Targ.

Hello folks and welcome back to my channel on this twenty seven part series called Jaqen-Is-Actually-Aegon-But-Not-Young-Griff on last time we discussed how Arya is the third head of the dragon, and now we'll be discussing why The Waif is actually Ashara Dayne. Like and subscribe!

 

32 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Where you are at right now is with a Quinean fabric whose edges are all in clouds in your head. Humans find patterns even where there are none. People who do that excessively are diagnosed as schizophrenics and in their most lucid moments realize that the patterns they find exist only in their heads and are otherwise meaningless. I've been watching videos on "Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice" recently and couldn't help seeing a parallel in her fixation on finding hidden runic symbols all around her.

Maybe @butterweedstrover is actually Senua 0__0

[butterweedstrover]

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Wrong, we do know of characters who naturally have that (CamiloRP notes them), and "Jaqen" changed his hair to that of the Alchemist without hair dye. His appearance is determined by Faceless Man magic. 

Those examples are strains of hair with similar hue. 

The two colors are opposite hues split directly half way, 50/50. 

If it was a faceless mask, then you should expect someone else to have that biologically composition, which again, hasn't been shown to be true.

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Rhaegar had silver hair, not white. 

Targaryens differ generation to generation. And Jaqen is described as having shining white hair multiple times.  

White and Red, ice and fire. 

Rhaegar says his song is the song of ice and fire. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Varys made no such claim himself, YG claimed that and Vayrs implicitly confirmed his story by denying Kevan's claim about Aegon being dead. 

If YG says Varys was the one, then I imagine Varys told him that. Which means Varys claims it to have happened. 

And again the story is false. 

Arbor Gold and Pisswater. 

We talk about the symbolism of Arbor Gold. 

Wine means lies, Arbor Gold is lies. 

Ebrose has a lecture on the qualities of urine. The maester pursue the truth.  

Piss is the opposite of arbor gold. Leo even says you guys can take the piss, he wants arbor gold. 

So the story Varys told him was a lie, with a kernel of truth.  

The 'father' traded the pisswater boy (truth) for arbor gold (lies). 

The true prince was replaced by the fake prince. 

Aegon was replaced by Young Griff. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He winds up with a death sentence, so there's a good reason he & Tywin didn't want that coming out earlier (even though a number of people had heard that was indeed what happened). 

Tywin spoke to Tyrion that he never asked Gregor if he did it or not. 

Then everyone took Tywin at his word that it was Aegon (according to Kevan). 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Quote the bit that says his accent breaks. Also, why the hell did you arrange to mix up these statements about Jaqen & Aegon rather than putting consolidating them into separate sequential blocks (as you did with Pate & Varys)? It makes it more annoying to read & quote. 

This is one: 

Arya put her lips to his ear. “It’s Jaqen H’ghar.” Even in the burning barn, with walls of flame towering all around and him in chains, he had not seemed so distraught as he did now. “A girl . . . she makes a jest.” 

But I found more in ACOK, but then I'd have to reread the chapters to find them since using Ctrl+F doesn't get me anywhere with the PDF. 

Anyway this is the most vital scene regardless.  

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Varys knew WHAT? 

Who Jaqen was. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Pate is not a literal pig-boy, but instead has a name like that character, and Spotted Pate in his world is not a disguised prince. 

Spotted Pate is a pig boy in a story: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Spotted_Pate 

Only this pig boy beats knights. 

Pate the pig boy wishes he was like him, but he is not. 

However allegorically, he is related to the swine heard because the two things he values most in this prologue (The beauty of the nightingale and Rosey), are the two most valuable possessions of the swineherd (whose most valued possessions are a Nightingale and a Rose). 

The Alchemist parallels another hidden prince, Strider. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The items in the chest were specifically tailored by Illyrio for the kid he raised in his manse and believes to be YG. If Illyrio is mistaken, this is a swap that took place relatively late and that Illyrio himself is ignorant of. That late and YG himself would probably be aware, but there's no evidence for that. Instead the simpler explanation is that the chest has more sentimental value to Illyrio than YG because YG hasn't been living with Illyrio for years. 

Illyrio probably know what is up. But the cloths inside are baby cloths, candied ginger, and other things from kingslanding. 

It gives the boy legitimacy, but it also proves Aegon (the real one) had his stuff moved over from across the narrow sea (which suggests the baby swap happened). 

These items have no memory or meaning to YG, not even his like for ginger. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

What is the reason to believe in a swap in that case? 

Again, the mysterious circumstances surrounding Aegon's death, the chest, the story about the pisswater boy and arbor gold, literary devices and the such. 

Also we are introduced to the idea through Jon's chapters. 

"Another woman would have..." 

Another woman, not Gilly or Val. Another woman, like Elia. 

And just practically we know Rhaegar valued this child for the prophecy (He is the prince who was promised, his is the song of ice and fire). After the war began, he would want him far away from Westeros until the war was over. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We don't know what specifically the Alchemist wants, as it's none of Pate's concern. Tyrion doesn't even know the Alchemist exists. Furthermore, the book is about the Death of Dragons, not their birthing. 

Remeber it's insinuated to us that the maesters were responsible for the death of dragons. That is why the book is so securely locked away. 

Learning how they stopped hatching is key to reversing the affect.

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You are wrong. He played for everybody present, Lyanna just happened to be one of the listeners. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had not yet appeared, so Rhaegar had no reason to pay particular attention to her yet. 

Here is the Westeros.org profile: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lyanna_Stark#The_Year_of_the_False_Spring 

Lyanna was present at the tourney at Harrenhal in 281 AC. She happened upon Howland Reed, who was being bullied by three young squires, none older than fifteen. She roared "That's my father's man you're kicking" and attacked them with a tourney sword. The bullies scattered and Lyanna took Howland back to her tent, where she cleaned his wounds and bound them with linen. Then she introduced him to her brothers Brandon, Eddard, and Benjen. That evening, a feast was held to celebrate the start of the tourney. Lyanna persuaded Howland to attend the feast, as he was highborn and had as much right to attend as anyone. During the feast Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, a noted musician, performed a sad and beautiful song that made Lyanna weep. However, when Benjen teased her for crying, she poured wine over his head.^[1] During the feast, Lyanna recognized the three squires who had bullied Howland and pointed them out to her brothers.^[1] A mystery knight known as the Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated the knights the three bullies served, and demanded them to be chastised as ransom payment.^[1] Some fans have suggested Lyanna for the identity of the mystery knight. 

 

First of Rhaegar noticed Lyanna when she first beat up the squires (like when Jaqen notices Arya when she beats up Hotpie). This is before the knight of the laughing tree. 

"During the feast Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, a noted musician, performed a sad and beautiful song that made Lyanna weep. However, when Benjen teased her for crying, she poured wine over his head." 

It seems she stood out for crying, elsewise other people would have done so as well and she'd have blended in. I think its safe people noticed her tears. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

She knows WHAT? 

I don't know what this is referencing. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

NO. We get no scene of Elia asking that. You can't have a "parallel" with stuff you made up and isn't in the text. 

Both lines are in the text, they are just placed in different parts.

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Again, that's not in the text. The "parallel" is one you made up. 

No. Pate has two parallels, one of them is to Rhaegar. 

He wants the fifteen year old maiden, who is worth a dragon. 

Rhaegar wanted Lyanna for the third head of the dragon, his third child. 

So when the alchemist confronts him, the questions are the same. 

"Do you love her, do you want her, you won't do better." 

And the obvious answer "I am no thief"". 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

What are you talking about? Amory Lorch is not the third head of the dragon, nor are the flames that presumably consumed Rhaenys' corpse when she was cremated! 

What are you talking about? I said none of this stuff. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

No. He never uses that name unprompted. He's good at detecting lies because of the "lying game" the Faceless Men are trained in. 

He only asks for a name after he sees the coin (him and the waif). 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We don't need to assume that, we see with the Waif that Arya is not yet a good enough liar to deceive people with such training. 

Agreed. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We don't know what specifically he's looking for. 

Yes, but we can deduce what he is looking for. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

As I said, Varys makes no claim of taking away anyone. YG himself does, and Varys merely confirms the story implicitly. 

Varys telling the story to YG is him making the claim (true or not). 

I discussed above why the story he told him is false though. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The first rule of ASoIaF theorycrafting is that EVERYONE is a secret Targ. 

Yeah, that is not what I am claiming. 

Tyrion doesn't want a dragon (he is not a child anymore), and the only reason Victarion/Euron care is because they have the horn. 

And none of these people are trying to hatch a dragon egg. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It's possible, but you don't know that. A Lorathi might indeed find it easier to fake another Lorathi identity. 

The true identity of 'Jaqen' is from Braavos. 

Tyrion did the same thing, Hugor Hill is not from Casterly Rock, but some place nearby he is familiar with. 

Lorath is near Braavos. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Provide quotes. 

I've covered this already.

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What is the evidence that doesn't apply for the identity of "Jaqen"? 

He (Jaqen) enjoys making up a background (like he does with Biter's name). 

He smiles all the time like this is a gib only he knows (this is what Alleras does as well). 

This is a fun game, making up a false identity. 

If it was someone else's face he would take up their history, knowledge, and past. It wouldn't be made up. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He only confirms YG's story implicitly. He does not say anything about personally swapping babies. 

If he told the story to YG, that means he claimed to have done it. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why would Tywin lie to Tyrion that he ordered Gregor & Amory to murder those children!? 

Well why did he? 

In ASOS he talks to Tyrion saying he never ordered Gregor or Amory to kill the children, they took initiative. 

If you think he is lying then you should ask the question to yourself. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He's only trying to get out when there's a fire about to kill him. 

I ask this plain and simple: What motive does he have for wanting to stay locked up? 

Yoren was told to keep them under locked guard because they were dangerous, and he has no inclination of going to the wall. And if he did then he wouldn't need Yoren. 

 

This time you are making the claim, because as he was presented to us, he was a prisoner. 

If you think he wanted to be locked up, its on you to tell us why. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Where you are at right now is with a Quinean fabric whose edges are all in clouds in your head. Humans find patterns even where there are none. People who do that excessively are diagnosed as schizophrenics and in their most lucid moments realize that the patterns they find exist only in their heads and are otherwise meaningless. I've been watching videos on "Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice" recently and couldn't help seeing a parallel in her fixation on finding hidden runic symbols all around her. 

That's a joke. There is overwhelming evidence. I'm surprised you don't buy it. 

I guess that means more cookies for me. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Only in your head, not in the text. 

Yes, in the text. That is where I gather this stuff from.

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Would have under what condition? The vision didn't show us that. 

The vision didn't want to reveal too much. But their conversation did continue, and the rest of the dialogue is in the prologue to book 4. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We have no evidence that Jaqen is NOT just a face mask and that they will meet again. He's currently in Oldtown, which is a continent's breadth away from Braavos. 

Yes well, characters move around. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The former is in the text we can all read, the latter so far has been all in your head. 

Yes well the latter requires the text to figure out as well. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

White is not the Targaryen color! They have a three-headed red dragon on a black background. You can't say red represents house Martell and white house Targaryen, it's inconsistent. 

It's not if it plays two roles. 

Remember what Rhaegar said about his son? "His is the song of ice and fire." 

His hair is also white and red, for ice and fire. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Varys doesn't know everything, like that Ned Stark was going to be executed. The point of a Faceless Man going Faceless is to be mistaken as someone else and not perceived to be what they really are. 

That's not why he came to westeros. 

He is shown to be breaking rules (Showing his face to one of his victims) and pursuing a dragon egg. 

If you claim this is what the FM want (contrary to the kindly man) then the burden of proof lies on yourself. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He's explicitly compared to Spotted Pate, hero of a thousand stories. 

I've covered this already. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Is he insane? That killed nearly everybody there. 

No, Summerhall as in trying to crack a dragon egg.  

It is what his prophecy, the prince who was promised, was thought to meant to be. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't know Jaqen's age! 

We know he is described as young. Older than Arya, but not so old that he would be a parental figure (Ned is in his 30s).  

The age range fits, and if you take Pate's backstory, then even more. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No he doesn't. Aegon was a baby, and nobody said anything about him having multicolored hair. 

Yeah, the hair was dyed for Elia and Rhaegar: 

Ice and Fire. White is ice, red is fire. 

Remember the FM and the waif have all sorts of chemicals and potions from the far east, they are not using the stuff Sansa is. 

And otherwise you would have to believe the mask is of a person with hair color that goes against biology (To opposite hue colors split half way down the face.). 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You don't know that. 

I deduce that. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The same harp perhaps, but since he played a lot of sad music we can't be sure it's the same song. 

I don't claim it to be. But the sad harp music, while looking away from his wife and child, while thinking about the third dragon head, is him thinking of Lyanna. 

Elia is too weak to give him a third child, and he says the dragon needs three heads. 

So he is looking for another woman, like Lyanna. 

We know this happens in the end because of Jon Snow. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Elia doesn't know to connect his music to that, Rhaegar plays his harp very frequently. Barristan talks about how he used to busk in King's Landing while disguised. 

This was after Harrenhall, when he rewarded Lyanna the title of queen of love and beauty. 

The music in that context, after Lyanna wept, and him speaking of needing a third child, and ignoring his wife and son, is all she needs to figure it out. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

But that's not what she actually said. And we don't know of Rhaegar making any song for Lyanna. 

They are speaking of the boy, but also their marriage. 

He crowned another woman queen of love and beauty, you think she doesn't know what he wants?

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

She didn't say that either, and she already had a child with Rhaegar he could have written a song for. 

Again, Rhaenys was before the tourney. And Elia can not hope to bare a third child. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

WHY!? 

Why not? He doesn't care anymore, and Oberyn was pestering him to no end. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He didn't specifically say "with him". She said to show the coin to any man from Braavos if she would see him again. 

Maybe. I'm not sure about his movements. He either went straight to the iron islands, or to Braavos and then the iron islands.  

This is from ACOK: 

"“If you would learn, you must come with me.” Arya grew hesitant. “Where?” “Far and away, across the narrow sea.”"

"Sometimes she wished she had gone off across the narrow sea with Jaqen H’ghar." 

That's why I think he went to Braavos first. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We don't even know if it's possible to poison an egg. 

However they did it, its suggested they were responsible for the end of dragons (After the dance of dragons destroyed Westeros). 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

As a child he specifically wished for a dragon small enough for him to ride. 

As a child. Many people wish for many things as a child.

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He seems to have taken zero steps to protect his children with Elia, precisely because he thought he would win. 

He valued Aegon more than either of them. 

Remember he thought he was the prince who was promised, and Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, we know he sang a song and she cried, but not that the song was for her specifically. 

I don't think it was for her, but he was thinking of her when he strung it in the bed room. 

He saw her beat the squires (to protect Howland), he saw her weep to his music, and he crowned her queen of love and beauty. 

Who else would he be thinking of as a contestant for a second wife (he needs a third child). 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Even we don't know that the song he's playing is "for Lyanna". 

Was the song written for her? Probably not. 

But he was thinking about her, and Elia knew. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why the hell would Elia say "You won't do better"? 

At this point he wants him to be happy. 

It's ok, she thinks. Lyanna is kind and beautiful, and strong. She can bare your child, she is the most beautiful as you said. 

I doubt she really thinks this but she is trying to appease Rhaegar. And Lyanna is kind to Elia. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Many people prefer not to bring up embarassing incidents, and shortly after giving birth hardly seems like to time to bring up her husband embarassing her. The Alchemist is trying to goad Pate into making the deal, there's no reason for Elia to talk like him. 

In a way she is, she's saying take her, do it. Of course in the long term she will live to regret this. But he is drifting away from her, and she want him to be happy. To make him happy. 

The Alchemist wants Pate to agree as well. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We have no text of Rhaegar saying that. 

But you see in the context of Pate as Rhaegar, the conversation continues. 

And we know he steals Lyanna in the end. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We have no text of Rhaegar saying either of these contradictory lines.

He changes his mind. 

We know he does because he does steal Lyanna in the end. 

20 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We don't see that latter bit.

We can deduce it. 

[kissdbyfire]

10 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

White and Red, ice and fire

Minor detail, but ice is referred to as being blue, not white. Here are few examples (not that I think it will convince you at all, but had to be said).

AGoT, Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal

 

AGoT, Jon III

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. 

 

ASoS, Samwell I

"Get away!" Grenn took a step, thrusting the torch out before him. "Away, or you burn." He poked at it with the flames.

The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice blue blade brushed the flames,

ADwD, Tyrion III

They were ice blue, pale, cold. 

 

[butterweedstrover]

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Minor detail, but ice is referred to as being blue, not white. Here are few examples (not that I think it will convince you at all, but had to be said).

AGoT, Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal

 

AGoT, Jon III

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. 

 

ASoS, Samwell I

"Get away!" Grenn took a step, thrusting the torch out before him. "Away, or you burn." He poked at it with the flames.

The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice blue blade brushed the flames,

ADwD, Tyrion III

They were ice blue, pale, cold. 

 

It does convince me actually. 

Anyways I'm still working out the exact details, I thought I would throw in that alternative explanation. 

But white hasn't been compared to ice so far. 

[TheLastWolf]

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Minor detail, but ice is referred to as being blue, not white. Here are few examples (not that I think it will convince you at all, but had to be said).

AGoT, Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal

 

AGoT, Jon III

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. 

 

ASoS, Samwell I

"Get away!" Grenn took a step, thrusting the torch out before him. "Away, or you burn." He poked at it with the flames.

The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice blue blade brushed the flames,

ADwD, Tyrion III

They were ice blue, pale, cold. 

 

Sometimes it seemed to Jon almost a living thing, with moods of its own. The color of the ice was wont to change with every shift of the light. Now it was the deep blue of frozen rivers, now the dirty white of old snow, and when a cloud passed before the sun it darkened to the pale grey of pitted stone. The Wall stretched east and west as far as the eye could see, so huge that it shrunk the timbered keeps and stone towers of the castle to insignificance. It was the end of the world

Windblown dirt covers the Wall like film, and it often appears pale grey or dull white. The Wall shines blue and crystalline in sunlight, glimmers palely in moonlight, and glows pink and purple at dawn. The Wall sparkles from melting ice on sunny days, with rivulets of water being compared to weeping.

[TheLastWolf]

15 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

But white hasn't been compared to ice so far. 

It has been. The above post might help. 

But you're mostly right. White is for Snow. Jon and the other flaky kind, both. Val too

[TheLastWolf]

And BTW, I think the title requires a correction.

The Dragon(s) requires a good ass whupping or three to get them in line. 

[kissdbyfire]

@TheLastWolf, that's why I didn't say blue is always the colour used to describe ice. But it is  the one most often used, and not just in descriptions of the Wall, but ice in general. Make of that what you will. 

[TheLastWolf]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@TheLastWolf, that's why I didn't say blue is always the colour used to describe ice. But it is  the one most often used, and not just in descriptions of the Wall, but ice in general. Make of that what you will. 

Fair enough. Just pointing out all sides of the argument. I'm neutral Swiss here. 

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

It has been. The above post might help. 

But you're mostly right. White is for Snow. Jon and the other flaky kind, both. Val too

Yeah, Snow is white, Ice is blue. 

That is consistent with the real world as well (even though ice can sometimes be clear). 

[CamiloRP]

41 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Fair enough. Just pointing out all sides of the argument. I'm neutral Swiss here. 

do you realize that neutrality was the wrong position there, no?

[FictionIsntReal]

19 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

they are harder to take care of and obviously more likely to die

The Others and wights aren't "alive" as we are, and presumably not subject to death like us.

18 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Those examples are strains of hair with similar hue.

Darkstar's hair is not all of one similar hue.

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If it was a faceless mask, then you should expect someone else to have that biologically composition, which again, hasn't been shown to be true.

We haven't seen that exact configuration resulting from dye either. The real question is whether we should expect to see it. GRRM has indicated that multi-colored hair occurs sometimes naturally, but it's rare.

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Targaryens differ generation to generation

They differ naturally, but you are claiming "Jaqen" deliberately dyed half of his hair white after his father, even though his father had silver rather than white hair.

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If YG says Varys was the one, then I imagine Varys told him that

YG spent time as a child in Illyrio's manse, so I think Illyrio is more likely to be the one that told him.

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Tywin spoke to Tyrion that he never asked Gregor if he did it or not

He said he didn't tell Gregor & Amory anything about Elia. He's quite explicit that their orders were to kill the children. And he knows Amory is the one who excessively stabbed Rhaenys because she struggled & kicked him, leaving Gregor as the one in the other room with Elia & her infant.

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Then everyone took Tywin at his word that it was Aegon (according to Kevan).

Tywin didn't personally see the child alive anymore than Kevan or anyone else did. It's a male child of Aegon's age found dead in the Red Keep near the identifiable murdered bodies of Rhaenys & Elia. Tywin did not openly say he ordered any murders at that time, just that these bodies were found.

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Arya put her lips to his ear. “It’s Jaqen H’ghar.” Even in the burning barn, with walls of flame towering all around and him in chains, he had not seemed so distraught as he did now. “A girl . . . she makes a jest.”

It says he's distraught, NOT that his accent broke. You've provided no evidence that this identity is flimsier than the Alchemist or Pate.

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Who Jaqen was.

There's no evidence Varys knew Jaqen was a Faceless Man, much less the true identity of any Faceless Man.

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Pate the pig boy wishes he was like him

Pate the novice is not a pig boy, he is just called one by Lazy Leo.

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the two things he values most in this prologue (The beauty of the nightingale and Rosey)

We know he values the nightingale less than Rosey, his primary goal. He doesn't have any superlative for the nightingale being a thing he values "most".

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the cloths inside are baby cloths, candied ginger, and other things from kingslanding.

You don't know those things are from KL.

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It gives the boy legitimacy

HOW!? Those aren't well-known/unique items.

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Another woman, like Elia.

We are given no indication Elia specifically differs from Gilly or Val in this respect.

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And just practically we know Rhaegar valued this child for the prophecy (He is the prince who was promised, his is the song of ice and fire). After the war began, he would want him far away from Westeros until the war was over.

All three children are the three heads of the dragon, with Rhaenys being the first. He didn't get her away from Westeros at all, because he assumed he would win. We should thus think the same was the case for Aegon.

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That is why the book is so securely locked away

Books are labor-intensive to create, I don't think maesters would create a book saying they were responsible in the first place.

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Learning how they stopped hatching is key to reversing the affect.

Elisa Farman brought three dragon eggs to Braavos centuries ago which never hatched, without any maester interference we know of. Dany hatched three eggs long believed to be petrified without reading any book or seeming to perform any poison-neutralization.

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First of Rhaegar noticed Lyanna when she first beat up the squires

No, Rhaegar is NOT said to be present in that scene. He only appears afterward in the feast scene.

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It seems she stood out for crying, elsewise other people would have done so as well and she'd have blended in

The story is being told from Howland Reed's POV by his kids. He was sitting with the Starks, so he was noticing their reaction even if nobody else was. Benjen also noticed because he's sitting next to his sister and like razzing her.

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I don't know what this is referencing

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This is what he did with Lyanna, that is who he is thinking of. He does not look at his wife when he speaks. She knows

What does Elia know?

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Both lines are in the text, they are just placed in different parts.

Those lines are only in Pate's prologue, NOT any scene with Rhaegar and/or Elia. There is thus NO PARALLEL.

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He wants the fifteen year old maiden, who is worth a dragon.

Rhaegar wanted Lyanna for the third head of the dragon, his third child.

Pate is trying to get a gold dragon from the Alchemist so he can trade that dragon away in exchange for Rosey. Rhaegar did not trade away any dragon for Lyanna.

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So when the alchemist confronts him, the questions are the same.

No, we only get those questions once so they aren't "the same" as anything else in the text. And, again, Elia would have no reason to say such things.

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What are you talking about? I said none of this stuff.

You said the third head of the dragon is devouring the first. Rhaegar believes Rhaenys was the first of the three heads of the dragon, while Aegon was second and the third was yet to be born. But Rhaenys was not devoured by anything that could be described as the third head of the dragon. And Rhaegar appears to have been simply wrong about the prophecy.

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He only asks for a name after he sees the coin (him and the waif).

There is a fixed cost to creating the equipment to mint a specific type of coin, then a much lower marginal cost for every individual coin made of that type. It would be too expensive to create a multitude of different coins tracking different individual identities, and it would be harder for "any man of Braavos" to recognize them all if there were such a proliferation. Instead the coin is a generic symbol of the Faceless Men which can't suffice to determine anyone's identity, it only makes Arya interesting enough for them to want to know more.

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Yes, but we can deduce what he is looking for.

You are simply making it up, because the Alchemist/Pate gives no indication himself.

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the only reason Victarion/Euron care is because they have the horn

Quentyn didn't have a horn, nor did Illyrio when he sent Strong Belwas & Barristan to retrieve Dany, nor the slavers of Astapor who traded their Unsullied for one.

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And none of these people are trying to hatch a dragon egg.

There is the same amount of evidence (none) that the Alchemist is trying to do that.

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The true identity of 'Jaqen' is from Braavos.

You don't know that. The coin is for the HoBaW, which is in Braavos, but that doesn't mean he's originally from there.

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I've covered this already

No, you failed to provide even a single quote where it's said his accent broke.

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He (Jaqen) enjoys making up a background (like he does with Biter's name).

That's a nickname of a guy with filed teeth who's prone to biting. His background was given by GRRM in an SSM.

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If it was someone else's face he would take up their history, knowledge, and past. It wouldn't be made up.

There's no evidence Jaqen differs in this respect from the Alchemist. Unless you somehow divined the identity stolen to create the Alchemist from another bong rip.

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Well why did he?

He didn't, to Tyrion at least. He only denied giving an order regarding Elia, and (unlike some others) I believe him on that.

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In ASOS he talks to Tyrion saying he never ordered Gregor or Amory to kill the children, they took initiative.

WRONG, that's just what he tells Tyrion he will tell Oberyn when asked. Here he admits to Tyrion his guilt in explaining why he didn't just let Robert kill the children himself: "We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. [...] I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly." He also talks about how he redressed Amory for his sloppy work killing Rhaenys in an obvious way rather than smothering her, along with Amory's excuse. And when Tyrion asks about Elia, Tywin says he hadn't said anything about her because she herself was "nothing".

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If you think he wanted to be locked up, its on you to tell us why.

I didn't claim that he did want to be locked up, only that trying to get out during a fire fails as evidence that he didn't want that. Wanting to be locked up in a manner in which he'd expect to survive (and Yoren only claims to have lost one recruit in all his trips) is way different from wanting to be locked up in a fire.

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That's a joke. There is overwhelming evidence. I'm surprised you don't buy it.

You must be perpetually surprised, because you're the only one who buys your "overwhelming evidence".

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The vision didn't want to reveal too much. But their conversation did continue, and the rest of the dialogue is in the prologue to book 4.

You can't just take dialogue from several books later involving an entirely different set of characters at a different time talking about a different thing and then say that's actually the second half of some earlier dialogue. This is why, as CamiloRP has repeatedly pointed out, you haven't established any parallel. You have merely made it up and twisted things in order to fit your preconceived theory.

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It's not if it plays two roles.

White COULD represent "ice", but then it would only be playing one role. White CANNOT represent house Targaryen, because it's not their house color. It can't represent Rhaegar specifically, because his hair is silver rather than white. You've got a square peg you keep trying to force into a round hole.

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Remember what Rhaegar said about his son? "His is the song of ice and fire."

Aegon himself was too young to remember that.

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That's not why he came to westeros.

You don't know why he came to Westeros.

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He is shown to be breaking rules (Showing his face to one of his victims)

You don't know that's a rule of the FM.

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and pursuing a dragon egg.

You don't know that, and your assumption had been that he ALREADY HAD a dragon egg.

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If you claim this is what the FM want (contrary to the kindly man) then the burden of proof lies on yourself.

What did the Kindly Man say that I am contradicting? That the FM want to be recognized?

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It is what his prophecy, the prince who was promised, was thought to meant to be.

Rhaegar didn't say anything about that, and didn't even have any dragon eggs to crack.

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We know he is described as young. Older than Arya, but not so old that he would be a parental figure (Ned is in his 30s).

Provide a quote. We don't know what age "Jaqen" should be, and since this is an FM that might have nothing to do with his true age. We even have the example of the Waif, who looks like a child but claims to be in her 30s.

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Yeah, the hair was dyed for Elia and Rhaegar:

No, we see him change his haircolor without using any dye.

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And otherwise you would have to believe the mask is of a person with hair color that goes against biology (To opposite hue colors split half way down the face.).

You don't know that's against GRRM's version of biology (in which Baratheon black hair is super-dominant). He's already given multiple characters heterochromia, with each half of the face having an eye of a different color.

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The music in that context, after Lyanna wept

We don't know of Elia noticing any such weeping, she wasn't seated with the Stark kids.

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They are speaking of the boy, but also their marriage.

The dialogue is all about their child, not their marriage.

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He crowned another woman queen of love and beauty, you think she doesn't know what he wants?

If Rhaegar had been open about pursuing Lyanna, conflict would have erupted earlier. Few knew what Rhaegar really wanted. And most men don't rub their adultery in their wife's face.

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Why not? He doesn't care anymore, and Oberyn was pestering him to no end.

He could just say nothing, but instead he confirms what others in the Lannister camp knew and Tywin confirmed to Tyrion. Where did that Aegon-aged child with a smashed head come from if not Gregor?

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That's why I think he went to Braavos first.

She turned him down, so he has no need to personally escort her there.

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He valued Aegon more than either of them.

He was sure all three heads of the dragon were necessary. If he thought they were in any danger in KL, he would have moved ALL of his children. He didn't because he was sure he would win.

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He saw her beat the squires (to protect Howland)

NO, he is not said to be in that scene, nor is that tussle said to be the focus of wide attention.

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he saw her weep to his music

He was at least present in that scene, but we don't know of him even looking in her direction.

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Who else would he be thinking of as a contestant for a second wife (he needs a third child).

Despite what your parents may have told you, marriage is not actually necessary to produce children. And many married men have fathered children on other women without their wives even knowing about the existence of the mistress.

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But he was thinking about her, and Elia knew.

We don't know that.

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At this point he wants him to be happy.

We've gotten some POV chapters from wives. None of them have that attitude. At best there's Catelyn's grudging acceptance that Ned was unfaithful during the war, which does not extend to understanding his bastard being raised alongside his trueborn children with her.

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She can bare your child, she is the most beautiful as you said

Rhaegar never said that, Lyanna isn't said by anyone to be the most beautiful at the tourney, and we certainly don't have Elia saying anything like that.

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And Lyanna is kind to Elia.

How so!? Everyone regards Rhaegar crowning Lyanna as an insult to Elia. At this point Lyanna hasn't interacted with Elia at all (nor do we have evidence that they ever did interact).

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In a way she is, she's saying take her, do it

We don't have Elia saying that, and she would have no reason to do so.

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The Alchemist wants Pate to agree as well.

The Alchemist doesn't want Pate to be happy, he's going to murder him and steal his identity. There's not even a parallel with your imaginary Elia.

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But you see in the context of Pate as Rhaegar

But Pate isn't Rhaegar and you never established any parallel. You assumed one and then made up scenes we didn't see in order to create one.

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He changes his mind.

We know he does

We never had him say "I am no thief", which would be an odd way of phrasing his response to the bizarre suggestion from his wife that he commit adultery.

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We can deduce it.

No, you are no Sherlock Holmes. You made it up.

[CamiloRP]

14 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The Others and wights aren't "alive" as we are, and presumably not subject to death like us.

I meant Craster's inbred sons.

[butterweedstrover]

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

 

Darkstar's hair is not all of one similar hue. 

Black and White are shades. 

And again, a lock of hair is not the same as having hair color split down the half (exactly). 

In the real life you can have heterochromia iridum which gives you mismatched eye colors. 

You can also be a midget. 

None of GRRM's physical attributes so far are strictly against reality. They could be, but none have (to my knowledge) been produced so far. 

Hair divided exactly half way has not shown to be biologically possible. 

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We haven't seen that exact configuration resulting from dye either. The real question is whether we should expect to see it. GRRM has indicated that multi-colored hair occurs sometimes naturally, but it's rare. 

Multicolored hair is possible in real life. But not split down the middle 50/50. 

heterochromia iridum allows for mismatched eyes. In general heterochromia can also cause different hues at the scalp, but split half way down 50/50. 

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They differ naturally, but you are claiming "Jaqen" deliberately dyed half of his hair white after his father, even though his father had silver rather than white hair. 

I think white is his natural hair. I think he dyed the other half red. 

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YG spent time as a child in Illyrio's manse, so I think Illyrio is more likely to be the one that told him. 

It's possible, but the same thing applies. Varys and Ilyrio work closely with one another so they must have agreed on the story, the same Varys implicitly agrees to when he kills Kevan (well, he doesn't kill him, but you get the point). 

Either way he is now making that claim, true or false. 

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He said he didn't tell Gregor & Amory anything about Elia. He's quite explicit that their orders were to kill the children. And he knows Amory is the one who excessively stabbed Rhaenys because she struggled & kicked him, leaving Gregor as the one in the other room with Elia & her infant. 

This is true, though I still don't believe he ever asked Gregor specifically. He just assumed Gregor did the deed.

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Tywin didn't personally see the child alive anymore than Kevan or anyone else did. It's a male child of Aegon's age found dead in the Red Keep near the identifiable murdered bodies of Rhaenys & Elia. Tywin did not openly say he ordered any murders at that time, just that these bodies were found. 

Of course. 

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It says he's distraught, NOT that his accent broke. You've provided no evidence that this identity is flimsier than the Alchemist or Pate. 

Lets look at that line again: 

“A girl . . . she makes a jest.” 

The possessive shouldn't be used her in Lorathi speech pattern. 

It should be, "a girl jests" or something along those lines. 

There are a few other moments, but I can't find them using ctrl+F on the PDF. 

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There's no evidence Varys knew Jaqen was a Faceless Man, much less the true identity of any Faceless Man. 

What the book suggests to us he didn't want to be locked up. 

You can claim it was all a rues, but then the burden of proof is on yourself. Why would he want to be taken to the wall, why wasn't he prepared for something to go wrong, why did he not go north himself? 

Based on what we are given, he was captured, which means he slipped up. Rugen who is in charge of the black cells either was the one who outsmarted him, or their is a high chance he figured out what the man was after. 

A better chance than the alternative: Jaqen wanted to get caught and Varys wasn't twice the wiser. 

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Pate the novice is not a pig boy, he is just called one by Lazy Leo. 

For a metaphor, it works all the same: 

A pig boy who values the nightingale's music and a girl named rosey. 

Yes, this is an allusion to the swineherd. 

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We know he values the nightingale less than Rosey, his primary goal. He doesn't have any superlative for the nightingale being a thing he values "most". 

", a nightingale began to sing. It was a sweet sound" 

"They made a mighty music [the city bells]. Though not so sweet as one small nightingale." 

In Braavos the nightingale is a beautiful woman, much the same he finds the nightingale sweet, and Rosey sweet[er]. 

Those are the two things in the prologue he values most, his two prize possessions.  

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You don't know those things are from KL. 

There was the candided ginger, and baby clothes: 

"Also child’s clothing, musty but well made" 

These aren't for the YG of today, they for of his childhood identity, Aegon VI. 

Aegon VI came from Kingslanding. 

If they were YG's things, he would notice, but not once to he give motion to care. He is never noted as chewing on the ginger, or having a connection to the items in the chest. 

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HOW!? Those aren't well-known/unique items. 

Their are many maids and people from Kingslanding who may yet remember. 

And if not, keep in mind this is all part of the illusion. 

Varys talks a lot about making a lie the truth, or casting a tall shadow from a short man. 

When Kevan is dying, he has no reason to withold the truth, but still he says YG is Aegon VI. 

In the same way, if Ilyrio had the real Aegon (the pisswater boy) he wants YG (the arbor gold) to embody everything and anything about the other boy so he becomes him, he becomes the identity of Aegon VI. 

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We are given no indication Elia specifically differs from Gilly or Val in this respect. 

Well, the literary purpose of bringing up the baby swap is to introduce us to the idea. YG does, as does Jon. 

So we are told how "another woman" would react if this had happened under different circumstances. 

And we know one thing about Elia, she is dornish. 

On the outside Oberyn was the aggressive one. Then we are introduced to his brother Doran. He is sickly, meek, passive, and he avoids conflict. 

For all intent and purpose he would allow others to slight him without reacting. 

But then we learn that underneath his blood boils with rage. He lets it simmer, but he wants vengeance. He wants blood and fire. 

Elia is like him, underneath her blood boils. How many times is Dorne related to a hot temper? Spicy food, deep seated rage. 

Gilly and Val aren't dornish by any means. But Elia is, she is "another woman". 

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All three children are the three heads of the dragon, with Rhaenys being the first. He didn't get her away from Westeros at all, because he assumed he would win. We should thus think the same was the case for Aegon. 

But Aegon was the prince who was promised. Note he was born when the red comet struck the sky. Rhaegar had believed himself to be the prince who was promised, but he changed his mind on seeing this. 

His mind on the prophecy has changed, and it can change again. 

Regardless I agree he thought he would win the war, but for Aegon was more important than his other child or wife. He wanted to keep him away from the fighting in westeros, until it was safe to come back. 

It also in a way shows a disregard for his wife and daughter. 

He left three white cloaks with Lyanna (and Jon), but Just Jaime for his wife and daughter.  

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Books are labor-intensive to create, I don't think maesters would create a book saying they were responsible in the first place. 

Remember that locking a single book away (that there is only one copy of) in the deepest place in the citadel is an extreme action to take. Whatever information that is on there must be important. 

For whatever reason, the dragons died off during the reign of Aegon III, after the dance with dragons. The maesters (grey rats) wouldn't want more dragons for that to ever happen again. 

So they keep the book for its knowledge, in case it ever needs to be used again. Openly teaching how to stop dragons from hatching would tantamount to admitting your guilt. But the knowledge on how to do it is there in the book. 

And any one looking to reverse the trend would want to know how it was done in the first place. 

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Elisa Farman brought three dragon eggs to Braavos centuries ago which never hatched, without any maester interference we know of. Dany hatched three eggs long believed to be petrified without reading any book or seeming to perform any poison-neutralization. 

Elisa Farman took those eggs during the Reign of Jaehaerys I, before the dance with dragons. This was before the eggs were poisoned (whatever happened) by the maesters after the dance with dragons. 

Supposedly Euron's egg is much the same since he found it in old Valyria, so it would still be hatchable. 

But finding out how is the secret. The maesters must have learned something about dragon eggs to affect them all, secrets of which lay in the book. 

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No, Rhaegar is NOT said to be present in that scene. He only appears afterward in the feast scene. 

But he would have heard what happened, and the fight happened outside so their is no telling if he saw or he didn't. 

Either way he was attracted to Lyanna, which is why he crowned her the queen of love and beauty over Elia. 

Rhaegar had never cheated on Elia with anyone, so this was a surprise to her as much as anyone else. But again, I suspect she knows more than others about Rhaegar being his wife and all. 

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The story is being told from Howland Reed's POV by his kids. He was sitting with the Starks, so he was noticing their reaction even if nobody else was. Benjen also noticed because he's sitting next to his sister and like razzing her. 

It was noticeable enough to single out Lyanna. 

If others in the room were crying, nothing about her would stand out. But it did. 

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What does Elia know? 

That he is thinking about Lyanna, or another woman. 

He speaks to her about needing a third child, one which both of them know Elia can't provide. 

He goes to the window sill, looks away from them, and plays sad music with his harp. 

He has a new born child with his wife, this isn't a sad moment. 

But he is dismissive with Elia, he doesn't look at her, and he dismisses her question about writing a song for Aegon. 

(Remember Jorah says the song of ice and fire is not one he has ever heard of. It is not a song, more a prophecy).   

She also knows he crowned this girl the queen of love and beauty. If Rhaegar is not thinking of Lyanna, Elia certainly is. 

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Those lines are only in Pate's prologue, NOT any scene with Rhaegar and/or Elia. There is thus NO PARALLEL.

Pate is trying to get a gold dragon from the Alchemist so he can trade that dragon away in exchange for Rosey. Rhaegar did not trade away any dragon for Lyanna. 

The prologue is written in a curious way. 

It is a golden dragon he wants, but the chapter abbreviates it as dragon. 

"I want my dragon", "Do you have my dragon", "Is the girl worth a dragon?" 

The prologue starts with the word "dragons". 

He makes clear metaphors to hatching a dragon (something Jaqen is trying to do): 

"He would have stood a better chance of hatching a real dragon than saving up enough coin to make a golden one." 

The Alchemist says: "“If you should reconsider, I shall return here three days hence, with my dragon.” 

He is talking about the coin, the gold, but the language is clear in its insinuation. Knowing what he, the alchemist, wants makes it all the more obvious. 

Leo phrases it like this: "“Do you think she’s truly worth a dragon?" 

Is Lyanna worth a dragon, can she offer him the third head? 

But there is more since we don't know his true feeling for Lyanna, did he love her? Did he find love more important than the prophecy? He was certainly enamored with her with the time we know of.  

And Pate does have clear parallels to Rhaegar. He doesn't see himself as a thief, but he wants to run away with a fifteen year old maiden, he wants a dragon. 

So when, right after the lines of "Do you want her, do you love her, you won't do better" he says I am not a thief. 

And why wouldn't Rhaegar say that, he knows Lyanna is betrothed to Robert, and he like Pate doesn't consider himself a thief. 

But he is one because he does take her, just like Pate takes the coin. 

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No, we only get those questions once so they aren't "the same" as anything else in the text. And, again, Elia would have no reason to say such things. 

She would. 

She is losing Rhaegar. He was a man above her station, and was surrounded by the lovely Ashara Dayne and other equally beautiful women. Yet not once was he disloyal to Lyanna. Until the tourney. 

She knows he is obssess with the prophecy, she is his wife. This isn't the first time he would mention the three heads of the dragon. 

He has a newborn son, healthy and alive, yet all he can think about is the third head. He moves away from his wife and newborn going to the window sill, away from them. He looks away from Elia, and plays sad music, like he did when Lyanna wept. 

Is this a time of sadness? But Elia thinks in this moment, why can't I give him this? He has been loyal to me and I am losing him, if he has his third head he will be content. So she thinks prompting him, relieving him of his guilt, would be a favor. 

She lives to regret that of course, but I still think she is hurt by seeing him reward another woman that title. She says he won't do better because that is what she imagines Rhaegar believes. 

Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the queen of love and beauty, even with other beautiful women at the tourney. So to her (Elia), he must see Lyanna as the most beautiful woman. Hence the "you won't do better".  

I also think there is some self-pity on her side, because of course she knows Rhaegar sees the stark girl as more beautiful than her.

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You said the third head of the dragon is devouring the first. Rhaegar believes Rhaenys was the first of the three heads of the dragon, while Aegon was second and the third was yet to be born. But Rhaenys was not devoured by anything that could be described as the third head of the dragon. And Rhaegar appears to have been simply wrong about the prophecy. 

Rhaegar was wrong about the prophecy, Rhaenys was not one of the three heads. He thought she was, but he also thought he was the prince who was promised at one point. 

Rhaenys died, she is not one of the heads of the dragon. 

But we are given allusions to who are. 

The trios of the great Shepherd in Braavos. 

There is the devouring head. 

The reborn head 

The mystery head. 

There is another parallel in the prologue to a feast for crows, but for now lets stick with this one. 

The devouring head. This is the worm eaten apple. Worms devour the apple, and the person most associated with worm eaten apples is Arya. 

She bits into one in ASOS, she tries to eat the worms on the kindly man's face, she is associated with the apple. 

She is also takes from two of Rhaegar's sons: Needle from Jon, and The coin from Aegon. 

The reborn head is Jon, because he is reborn from death. Also if you believe Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, then that also fits the three heads. 

They mystery head (unknown) is Aegon for he has yet to reveal his true self. 

The other comparison to the three heads are the arrows.  

After Alleras is done shooting the apples, he says "the dragon has three heads" out of the bloom.  

"Alleras unstrung his longbow and eased it into its leather case. The bow was carved from goldenheart, a rare and fabled wood from the Summer Isles. Pate had tried to bend it once, and failed. The Sphinx looks slight, but there’s strength in those slim arms, he reflected, as Alleras threw a leg across the bench and reached for his wine cup. “The dragon has three heads,” he announced in his soft Dornish drawl." 

He shoots three apples: 

1. The first he cores ("sweet") straight through the middle. "a yard-long shaft of golden wood fletched with scarlet feathers" hit the apple bullseye. 

This is for Aegon VI: Remember the Martell Banner, a golden spear through the center of a sun, much like the golden arrow. 

2. Splits a worm eaten apple, this is Arya. 

3. The last one he misses and falls into the water. This is Jon, he is missed at birth and doesn't know of his true parentage. 

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There is a fixed cost to creating the equipment to mint a specific type of coin, then a much lower marginal cost for every individual coin made of that type. It would be too expensive to create a multitude of different coins tracking different individual identities, and it would be harder for "any man of Braavos" to recognize them all if there were such a proliferation. Instead the coin is a generic symbol of the Faceless Men which can't suffice to determine anyone's identity, it only makes Arya interesting enough for them to want to know more. 

Most likely true, but I suspect they know who gave this to her. The faceless men must not be known for giving these away, and yet they have a facelessman who has gone breaking the rules. 

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You are simply making it up, because the Alchemist/Pate gives no indication himself. 

That he wants a dragon? There is much evidence and more of this. 

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Quentyn didn't have a horn, nor did Illyrio when he sent Strong Belwas & Barristan to retrieve Dany, nor the slavers of Astapor who traded their Unsullied for one. 

Quentyn thought himself to be sufficiently Targaryen.  

And the slavers in Astapor, just like Xaro Xhoan Daxos want a dragon as an exotic commodity. 

 It would be a status symbol to them something of great wealth. When Xaro sees the dragons grow up and become monsters, he is of the opinion that he would never have wanted one like this anyways. 

Same as how Hizdar says Drogon should be killed, they want something nice and small to keep in a cage, not an unruly beast that needs taming or that should be rode. 

Besides for the horn, only Targaryens are said to see themselves as dragon riders in the books. 

And none of them want to repeat Summerhall, that is just the alchemist. They just want Dany's dragons which are already hatched.  

Regardless Dragons are tied to Targaryens. 

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There is the same amount of evidence (none) that the Alchemist is trying to do that. 

You know this is not true. 

Otherwise so many people online would not be speculating 'what Jaqen wants with a dragon'.

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You don't know that. The coin is for the HoBaW, which is in Braavos, but that doesn't mean he's originally from there. 

He has lived long enough in Braavos for him to be familiar with the place, for it to be like home. 

But of course I agree he is not originally from Braavos. 

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No, you failed to provide even a single quote where it's said his accent broke. 

I did above on this comment (again). 

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That's a nickname of a guy with filed teeth who's prone to biting. His background was given by GRRM in an SSM. 

Yes, and Jaqen enjoys coming up with names for people. 

Taking a mask doesn't require creativity or fun. Compare that to Alleras who is always smiling like they know a jib. Jaqen does the same thing in Harrenhall, he is always smiling. 

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There's no evidence Jaqen differs in this respect from the Alchemist. Unless you somehow divined the identity stolen to create the Alchemist from another bong rip. 

The Alchemist doesn't smile or enjoy making up false identities. Or expanding on their orgins like Hugor Hill and Jaqen do about places near their home city (or places they are familiar with).  

The Alchemist does not have that parallel to Alleras or Hugor Hill. 

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WRONG, that's just what he tells Tyrion he will tell Oberyn when asked. Here he admits to Tyrion his guilt in explaining why he didn't just let Robert kill the children himself: "We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. [...] I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly." He also talks about how he redressed Amory for his sloppy work killing Rhaenys in an obvious way rather than smothering her, along with Amory's excuse. And when Tyrion asks about Elia, Tywin says he hadn't said anything about her because she herself was "nothing". 

I believe you in this case. But as he confronts Amory about his killing of Rhaenys, he never does the same with Gregor. 

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I didn't claim that he did want to be locked up, only that trying to get out during a fire fails as evidence that he didn't want that. Wanting to be locked up in a manner in which he'd expect to survive (and Yoren only claims to have lost one recruit in all his trips) is way different from wanting to be locked up in a fire. 

Much the same, the burden of evidence lays on the person making the claim. 

If you or anyone else believes he wanted to be locked away in the black cells and taken by Yoren you need to answer the following questions: 

1. Where did he want to be taken 

2. Why didn't he go himself? 

3. Why didn't he go to the wall after he was freed. 

4. If he did, when, why, or how? Why isn't any mysterious newcomer alluded to in Jon or Sam's chapters. 

5. Why did he not have an escape plan for a quick exit (like sneaking in pick locks). 

I go with what is given, he was a prisoner in the black cells who was freed by Arya. Anything else requires a huge amount of evidence to prove otherwise, especially when this expert assassin was nearly killed. 

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You must be perpetually surprised, because you're the only one who buys your "overwhelming evidence". 

Actually I do (really) believe this makes perfect sense when its all figured out. 

The three heads of the dragon, the black cells, the pisswater boy, the baby swap, the pledge under the heart tree, the waif and the kindly man, Euron's egg, the prince who was promised, all made sense. 

In honesty I'm at the point with (minus a few details) I am 100% sure same as R+L+J. 

I would be shell shocked if it weren't the truth, but it also wouldn't make sense given some deliberate language used in the books. 

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You can't just take dialogue from several books later involving an entirely different set of characters at a different time talking about a different thing and then say that's actually the second half of some earlier dialogue. This is why, as CamiloRP has repeatedly pointed out, you haven't established any parallel. You have merely made it up and twisted things in order to fit your preconceived theory. 

Above, I did so again. 

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White COULD represent "ice", but then it would only be playing one role. White CANNOT represent house Targaryen, because it's not their house color. It can't represent Rhaegar specifically, because his hair is silver rather than white. You've got a square peg you keep trying to force into a round hole. 

He has white hair, half dyed red. 

For fire, for the "red war" he speaks of, or for Dorne, his mother's home country. 

Targaryens have different shades of white generation to generation, and some white, some silver, some honey pale. 

The Ice and Fire also work as imagery. 

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Aegon himself was too young to remember that. 

The Waif would have told him if it were true. 

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You don't know why he came to Westeros. 

I can speculate, but I admit none is given directly so far. 

Unless you assume he is going to the iron islands to kill Balon, but then why was he in the black cells?

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You don't know that's a rule of the FM. 

But we are introduced to the idea. Unless you believe the rule was only made for Arya, or only for recruits, you would have to answer why that is. 

Again this is what the books give us, the burden of proof is on those who think otherwise.  

But I agree we don't "know" anything for sure until we get the final two books. 

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You don't know that, and your assumption had been that he ALREADY HAD a dragon egg. 

He has it now, but that is what he was after when he killed Balon (if he did). 

And he hasn't brought the egg back to the house of black and white like he is supposed to do with payment. He has the egg with himself at the citadel. 

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What did the Kindly Man say that I am contradicting? That the FM want to be recognized? 

In this case yes. 

The Kindly man says they are only here to give the gift, not play politics of hatch dragons. He also tells Arya she can't show her face to the victim. 

The alchemist makes a big deal of breaking this. His face is hidden underneath a cloak and hood, but before he gives the coin he reveals himself to Pate. Not necessary for this kill, but he did. 

If you think the Kindly man is ok with all this, taking the egg to the citadel, trying to hatch the egg, and killing someone by showing your face, the burden of proof lies on yourself. 

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Rhaegar didn't say anything about that, and didn't even have any dragon eggs to crack. 

He was born in the fires of summerhall. That is why he was obsessed with the prophecy to begin with. 

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Provide a quote. We don't know what age "Jaqen" should be, and since this is an FM that might have nothing to do with his true age. We even have the example of the Waif, who looks like a child but claims to be in her 30s. 

Well we are going off the person in Harrenhall. What he looks like (regardless of poisons or the such).

He is described as young and attractive. From Arya's perspective, parental would be early thirties, which isn't young. 

We can also deduce he is older than Arya, which puts him in the range of Aegon's age. 

 

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No, we see him change his haircolor without using any dye. 

The red is dye, not the white. We see him change his face, not just his hair color. 

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You don't know that's against GRRM's version of biology (in which Baratheon black hair is super-dominant). He's already given multiple characters heterochromia, with each half of the face having an eye of a different color. 

Heterochromia is real. He has changed the frequency and likelihood of certain genetic mutations or traits, but nothing so far that goes against real biology. 

He may, but he has not so far. 

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We don't know of Elia noticing any such weeping, she wasn't seated with the Stark kids. 

But Rhaegar did, just like he noticed her enough to crown her queen of love and beauty. 

Given all this, Elia knows who he is thinking of, especial on the question of another child. 

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The dialogue is all about their child, not their marriage. 

There is text, and there is subtext. 

She has a new born child, this should be a moment of happiness. But he disregards her question, looks away from her, and plays similar music he did that brought Lyanna to tears. 

She is talking about their marriage. 

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If Rhaegar had been open about pursuing Lyanna, conflict would have erupted earlier. Few knew what Rhaegar really wanted. And most men don't rub their adultery in their wife's face. 

That's what made the moment stand out. 

Rhaegar was like Aegon VI, he was not unfaithful to his wife, he never caused Scandals are regard her. 

But in Westeros we are told, in a tourney crowning some lady the queen of love and beauty, it is considered a scandal if you reward another women if you are betrothed or married, which is why everyone was so shocked. 

Elia was his wife, not just another person. She know, or thinks she know, what he wants. She can see clearly as anyone else he fancies this girl, and not just as another idle seduction. Again Rhaegar is not that type of husband. 

He does not bring up the subject, he only plays sad music (at a time that should be joyous). So she brings up Lyanna herself. It is not him rubbing it in Elia's face. Elia brings up the girl, the fifteen years old maiden from Harrenhall. 

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He could just say nothing, but instead he confirms what others in the Lannister camp knew and Tywin confirmed to Tyrion. Where did that Aegon-aged child with a smashed head come from if not Gregor? 

We don't really know the sequence of events regarding that day. Did Gregor carry the child over to Tywin, or did they find the body like that. 

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She turned him down, so he has no need to personally escort her there. 

Maybe. Again I'm not sure of his movements post Harrenhall. He either went to the house of black and white, or to the iron islands. 

What we do know is he offered to take her, despite "responcibilities" or "duties" he has to keep. Going to the other side of the world would be quite a detour from one's duties or promises he has to keep.  

And he can't be too concerned with her safety. Otherwise he would escort her to Riverrun has she has no protection anymore. 

 

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He was sure all three heads of the dragon were necessary. If he thought they were in any danger in KL, he would have moved ALL of his children. He didn't because he was sure he would win. 

I agree he was sure he would win, but he valued Aegon more than Rhaenys. 

And his opinion on the prophecy (after having a third child with Lyanna) may have changed, as it did once before. We don't really know. 

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NO, he is not said to be in that scene, nor is that tussle said to be the focus of wide attention. 

Again, it was outside. He may have heard about it or seen it. 

Regardless the girl cought his attention enough to name her queen of love and beauty. 

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He was at least present in that scene, but we don't know of him even looking in her direction. 

He noticed her enough to crown her, I think the moments added up. 

And Lyanna was drawing attention to herself at her own table, I think people noticed. Which means Rhaegar likely noticed as well. 

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Despite what your parents may have told you, marriage is not actually necessary to produce children. And many married men have fathered children on other women without their wives even knowing about the existence of the mistress. 

The marriage, if it did happen, would come later. But you can change that quote to say a contestant for the mother of his third child. 

He could have chosen anyone, but he choose Lyanna, a girl who was obviously attracted to. Enough to steal her away and possibly cause a war. 

Lyanna was more to him, or otherwise he thought the prophecy required legitimate children.  

None of this changes that he wanted Lyanna, and he wanted a third child that Elia could not provide for. 

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We don't know that. 

A third child requires another woman. 

Another woman he is thinking of, the sad music on the harp, his distance from Elia and their newborn. 

The girl at the tourney he crowned Queen of love and beauty. 

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We've gotten some POV chapters from wives. None of them have that attitude. At best there's Catelyn's grudging acceptance that Ned was unfaithful during the war, which does not extend to understanding his bastard being raised alongside his trueborn children with her. 

Oh I don't think Elia ended up happy with this arrangement.  

But none of those matches were uneven. Rhaegar could have married Cersei Lannister, one of the most beautiful high born ladies at the time. 

Instead he was with Elia, an admittedly weak and timid lady. And he was loyal to her, even if he was distant. And Rhaegar was not like Ned, he wanted to fulfill the prophecy, the three heads of the dragon, something Elia could not provide. 

Catelyn provided Ned with five healthy children.  

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Rhaegar never said that, Lyanna isn't said by anyone to be the most beautiful at the tourney, and we certainly don't have Elia saying anything like that. 

Rhaegar crowns her the queen of love and beauty. What do you think Elia thinks Rhaegar thinks about Lyanna?

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How so!? Everyone regards Rhaegar crowning Lyanna as an insult to Elia. At this point Lyanna hasn't interacted with Elia at all (nor do we have evidence that they ever did interact). 

Lyanna is nice and sweet, she does nothing to try and twist the knife, and Elia knows she is a young girl (fifteen years of age). 

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We don't have Elia saying that, and she would have no reason to do so. 

Of course she would, as I stated above. She is losing Rhaegar, and she wants to give him what he wants, what she can't give. 

Of course she later regrets this. 

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The Alchemist doesn't want Pate to be happy, he's going to murder him and steal his identity. There's not even a parallel with your imaginary Elia. 

The Alchemist is telling him to take the maiden, much like Elia told Rhaegar. 

No where did I state the Alchemist is a parallel to Elia, he is playing devils advocate to Pate.  

And the Alchemist also shares Elia's blood for what its worth. 

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But Pate isn't Rhaegar and you never established any parallel. You assumed one and then made up scenes we didn't see in order to create one. 

But I did establish the parallel. 

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We never had him say "I am no thief", which would be an odd way of phrasing his response to the bizarre suggestion from his wife that he commit adultery. 

Its an odd way of phrasing the discussion in the prologue. 

Speaking of how much he wants a girl (fifteen year old maiden) and then first responding with I am no thief. 

What do you think Rhaegar thought he was doing? He was stealing the girl from Robert. That was theft. 

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No, you are no Sherlock Holmes. You made it up.

I am Holmes as much as you are Watson. 

But we can deduce for what we know, and figure out solutions and answers.

[TheLastWolf]

10 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

11 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Fair enough. Just pointing out all sides of the argument. I'm neutral Swiss here. 

do you realize that neutrality was the wrong position there, no?

I am not neutral about the OP or to where it has led to (side arguments, minor). Just couldn't find enough time to post everything I thought about. My neutrality is only for that small issue about color of ice/snow. kiisdbyfire is right when she says blue has been most used to depict ice (true both in Planetos and our real world). butterweedstrover was wrong when he/she first attributed white for ice (accidentally?) but corrected in further post/(s). I just pointed out all the shades of ice through the biggest chunk of it, the Wall.

[CamiloRP]

7 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

I am not neutral about the OP or to where it has led to (side arguments, minor). Just couldn't find enough time to post everything I thought about. My neutrality is only for that small issue about color of ice/snow. kiisdbyfire is right when she says blue has been most used to depict ice (true both in Planetos and our real world). butterweedstrover was wrong when he/she first attributed white for ice (accidentally?) but corrected in further post/(s). I just pointed out all the shades of ice through the biggest chunk of it, the Wall.

hahahhaha I was talking about WWII! t'was supposed to be a joke

[FictionIsntReal]

22 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I meant Craster's inbred sons.

Yes, once the Others take them I don't think normal human biology matters anymore.

20 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

None of GRRM's physical attributes so far are strictly against reality. They could be, but none have (to my knowledge) been produced so far.

The Baratheon super-dominant hair color doesn't match real-world genetics, someone with Tyrion's dwarfism shouldn't be able to do backflips, and albinos have poor eyesight so Bloodraven wouldn't be effective as an archer.

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I think white is his natural hair. I think he dyed the other half red.

Why would he do that? None of Aegon's relatives had red hair.

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Either way he is now making that claim, true or false.

Kevan never heard YG or Illyrio give any explanation as to how Aegon survived, Varys is merely telling him that Aegon's alive and "here". So we have Varys now making that claim explicitly, it's just readers who can see that YG's story matches up with what Varys tells Kevan.

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He just assumed Gregor did the deed.

As opposed to Amory Lorch killing all three while Gregor slacked off? Both Gregor & Amory were working for Tywin so I expect Gregor discussed it at some point, possibly in the same conversation where Amory was making excuses.

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Lets look at that line again:

“A girl . . . she makes a jest.”

The possessive shouldn't be used her in Lorathi speech pattern.

It should be, "a girl jests" or something along those lines.

I don't see a "possessive" (and Jaqen has no problem using phrasing like "him at his leisure") and a "speech pattern" is not the same as an accent. And while "a girl jests" might be the more normal phrase, the ellipsis makes it more natural to add an extra word when resuming talking. Often people repeat the last word spoken after returning from a pause. So if you asked me what I wanted off a menu I might say "I'd like... I will have X", which would read quite oddly if you removed the ellipsis. Furthermore, the roots of the Lorathi speech pattern are in the denial of self. He's not talking about himself here.

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You can claim it was all a rues, but then the burden of proof is on yourself.

I make no such claim here, I'm arguing that your claim can't be proven by him trying to get out during a fire. I can remain agnostic as to whether he wanted to be in the Black Cells in the first place.

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Based on what we are given, he was captured, which means he slipped up. Rugen who is in charge of the black cells either was the one who outsmarted him

The jailer is not in charge of catching criminals.

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or their is a high chance he figured out what the man was after

On what basis do you conclude that?

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Those are the two things in the prologue he values most, his two prize possessions.

A nightengale is never referred to as a "possession" or a thing he values "most".

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These aren't for the YG of today, they for of his childhood identity, Aegon VI.

Aegon VI came from Kingslanding.

On what basis do you say that rather than YG's childhood in Illyrio's manse? Illyrio would have every reason to have such things rather than some complicated smuggling of baby-clothes & candy across the narrow sea for no good reason.

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If they were YG's things, he would notice

YG has not been a child in Illyrio's manse for years, he has been with Jon Connington and has "put away childish things". Illyrio has been apart from him and his memories are of that child, but YG has moved on.

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Their are many maids and people from Kingslanding who may yet remember.

Nobody will care about some maid saying a baby like candied ginger, which is at any rate not a unique item.

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And if not, keep in mind this is all part of the illusion.

Why bother!?

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In the same way, if Ilyrio had the real Aegon (the pisswater boy) he wants YG (the arbor gold) to embody everything and anything about the other boy so he becomes him, he becomes the identity of Aegon VI.

How does sending a box of child clothes and candy accomplish that!?

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And we know one thing about Elia, she is dornish.

So your entire reasoning is based on ethnic stereotypes, rather than a characteristic we hear applies to Elia specifically. But then in the dialogue you imagine with Rhaegar she's less "fiery" than any wife we've encountered and instead a complete dishrag encouraging her husband's desire to run off with another woman!

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Elia is like him, underneath her blood boils

You don't know that.

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Regardless I agree he thought he would win the war, but for Aegon was more important than his other child or wife. He wanted to keep him away from the fighting in westeros, until it was safe to come back.

King's Landing WAS away from the fighting when Rhaegar left, and ALL THREE heads of the dragon were necessary (that's why he started the war in the first place).

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He left three white cloaks with Lyanna (and Jon), but Just Jaime for his wife and daughter.

Jaime was with Aerys, not Rhaegar's wife & daughter. And Rhaegar knew the primary duty of the KG was the king rather than the heir's family.

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But the knowledge on how to do it is there in the book.

You don't know that.

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And any one looking to reverse the trend would want to know how it was done in the first place.

Dany didn't read the book before hatching dragons herself.

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Elisa Farman took those eggs during the Reign of Jaehaerys I, before the dance with dragons. This was before the eggs were poisoned (whatever happened) by the maesters after the dance with dragons.

That's reason to believe the failure of eggs to hatch isn't due to any such "poison".

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Supposedly Euron's egg is much the same since he found it in old Valyria, so it would still be hatchable.

So there is even less reason to bother with learning about any maester's "poison" as that was never used on the egg you assume the Alchemist has!

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But he would have heard what happened

Why would he? Some squires getting into a tussle is not important enough to reach the notice of the heir to the throne.

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Either way he was attracted to Lyanna, which is why he crowned her the queen of love and beauty over Elia.

There is the alternate theory that it was a gesture of respect for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, who was undefeated but had not returned to the tourney. Loras declared Sandor the winner of the Hand's tourney as a gesture of respect, this was the closest Rhaegar could do without revealing she was the KotLT.

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Rhaegar had never cheated on Elia with anyone

You don't actually know that, even if it would be consistent with what we've heard about him.

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It was noticeable enough to single out Lyanna.

WHO singles her out? Benjen razzes her, and Howland relays the story to his kids. We don't know of anyone at any other table noticing.

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If others in the room were crying, nothing about her would stand out. But it did.

We don't know how anyone at any other table would react. And if you think one sibling wouldn't razz the other because they're having a normal reaction, you should think again.

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That he is thinking about Lyanna, or another woman.

That's not established. Aemon thought he could be a head of the dragon for Dany, and he's not her sibling or even in a nearby generation.

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He has a new born child with his wife, this isn't a sad moment.

Barristan said it was not in Rhaegar to be happy. He only plays sad music on days ending in the letter "y".

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he dismisses her question about writing a song for Aegon

That's not "dismissing", that's answering in his own odd way which actually affirms the value of the question.

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It is a golden dragon he wants, but the chapter abbreviates it as dragon.

Abbreviations are how people naturally talk. Listen to some Lexicon Valley. Silver coins are called "stags", gold ones "dragons". Having to say "gold dragon" would be redundant.

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hatching a dragon (something Jaqen is trying to do)

You don't know that.

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He is talking about the coin, the gold, but the language is clear in its insinuation.

The Alchemist did not return in that time with a literal dragon. There was no insinuation.

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Knowing what he, the alchemist, wants

You don't know what he wants, other than that key.

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Leo phrases it like this: "“Do you think she’s truly worth a dragon?"

Is Leo also Elia?

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Is Lyanna worth a dragon, can she offer him the third head?

That does not make sense as a use of the word "worth". A surrogate might help a couple birth a child, but you wouldn't take about said surrogate being "worth" a child.

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But there is more since we don't know his true feeling for Lyanna, did he love her? Did he find love more important than the prophecy? He was certainly enamored with her with the time we know of.

If you don't know whether it was just prophecy, then you don't know if he was enamored.

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He doesn't see himself as a thief

No one accused Rhaegar of being a thief, nor do we have text of him denying being one.

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he wants a dragon

Pate wants to exchange a dragon, not to continue possessing one (much less three).

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And why wouldn't Rhaegar say that, he knows Lyanna is betrothed to Robert, and he like Pate doesn't consider himself a thief.

Rhaegar is not called a "thief" for taking Lyanna, but a kidnapper and/or rapist.

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She is losing Rhaegar

Are they getting a divorce, even though that word doesn't exist in Westeros? And if her marriage was in dire straits, why would she encourage his interest in another woman?

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He was a man above her station

Elia is the daughter of the Princess of Dorne. She's nearly as highborn as it gets in Westeros. She even has Targaryen ancestry.

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Yet not once was he disloyal to Lyanna. Until the tourney.

Again, you don't know that.

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plays sad music, like he did when Lyanna wept

He plays sad music like he does on days ending in "y". We don't know of Elia even noticing Lyanna weeping.

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Is this a time of sadness?

For Rhaegar, that's all the time. Presumably including when Rhaenys was born.

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But Elia thinks in this moment, why can't I give him this?

We have no wives thinking like that in the series.

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He has been loyal to me

Again, you don't actually know this, and in this very moment he's going to be disloyal (which he was in a sense when he crowned someone else the QoLaB).

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and I am losing him

Damn those no-fault divorce laws of that very modern Westerosi legal system!

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if he has his third head he will be content

It was not in Rhaegar to be content.

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So she thinks prompting him, relieving him of his guilt, would be a favor.

We have no wives who would want to do the "favor" of relieving their husband's guilt in that way.

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She says he won't do better because that is what she imagines Rhaegar believes.

A character's speech is normally determined by their own thoughts, not some formulation in another character's head. You don't need to tell someone something already in their head.

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The trios of the great Shepherd in Braavos

That's not a dragon. You just insist on making everything something else. The "rule of three" is extremely common, so you can't every instance onto whichever one you're interested in.

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The reborn head is Jon, because he is reborn from death

That hasn't happened yet in the books.

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They mystery head (unknown) is Aegon for he has yet to reveal his true self.

If you believe R+L=J, then Jon Snow is also yet to be revealed as his "true self". He hasn't been revealed as Azor Ahai or TPTWP either.

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The last one he misses and falls into the water. This is Jon, he is missed at birth and doesn't know of his true parentage.

Why not Aegon VI, since Gregor was assigned to kill him and "missed"?

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Most likely true, but I suspect they know who gave this to her

Given the large quantity of coins required to make it worthwhile to mint them in the first place, how could they narrow it down to one person?

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The faceless men must not be known for giving these away

How do you know that? Any man from Braavos is supposed to be able to recognize it.

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yet they have a facelessman who has gone breaking the rules

No, we haven't heard any "rule" against giving someone the coin, and they don't respond to Arya's coin by noting there was any rule violation.

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That he wants a dragon? There is much evidence and more of this.

You asserting there's evidence the Alchemist wants a dragon doesn't make it so.

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And the slavers in Astapor, just like Xaro Xhoan Daxos want a dragon as an exotic commodity.

How would you know that DOESN'T apply to the Alchemist?

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And none of them want to repeat Summerhall, that is just the alchemist.

You've provided no evidence the Alchemist wants that.

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You know this is not true.

As an authority on myself, I can with complete confidence say you are wrong. You haven't provided ANY evidence the Alchemist is trying to hatch a dragon egg. You just keep asserting it and assuming it as a premise in your arguments. Imagine someone starting out from a position of agnosticism on what the Alchemist wants and what the "true identity" of Jaqen is. What evidence could shift that person into believing the Alchemist is trying to hatch a dragon?

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Otherwise so many people online would not be speculating 'what Jaqen wants with a dragon'.

Hahaha. There are idiots online talking about all sorts of things with no basis in evidence.

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He has lived long enough in Braavos for him to be familiar with the place, for it to be like home.

We just know he told Arya to show the coin to any man from Braavos so she would be taken to the HoBaW. That he lived there long enough to think of it as home is plausible, but unproven.

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I did above on this comment (again).

No, your quote didn't say anything about accent at all.

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The Alchemist doesn't smile or enjoy making up false identities

The Alchemist only appears very briefly and interacts with just one person. Trying to get Pate to steal & sell you a key is not at all like trying to get a NW recruit to slip something into your cage.

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he never does the same with Gregor

Does he really need to? Amory presumably told him what he saw Gregor get up to.

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Much the same, the burden of evidence lays on the person making the claim.

Again, I'm not making the claim about him wanting to get in the Black Cells, I'm agnostic on the question for now. YOU are the one making a claim and your evidence is weak.

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he was a prisoner in the black cells who was freed by Arya

He wasn't freed from the black cells by Arya. He was freed from a burning cage by Arya. We don't see him trying to escape before then.

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it also wouldn't make sense given some deliberate language used in the books

You think GRRM is encoding messages that you have decrypted, but it's just in your head.

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For fire, for the "red war" he speaks of, or for Dorne, his mother's home country.

That's a number of different possibilities we can consider separately. The war of the five kings broke out relatively recently, and since he's been locked up that wouldn't seem to give him that much time to dye his hair. And dyeing half of his hair red for war doesn't really make sense either. If he's a fire-worshipper, maybe. But that doesn't have anything to do with Aegon.

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The Waif would have told him if it were true

There's no evidence she's Ashara (she even told a backstory inconsistent with that), and we have no evidence Ashara even knows the things you claim she's told Jaqen!

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I admit none is given directly so far

Thank goodness for small mercies.

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Unless you assume he is going to the iron islands to kill Balon

There are multiple Faceless Men, no reason to assume this one guy does everything.

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but then why was he in the black cells

I don't know, and neither do you.

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Unless you believe the rule was only made for Arya, or only for recruits, you would have to answer why that is.

CamiloRP already explained it.

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And he hasn't brought the egg back to the house of black and white like he is supposed to do with payment. He has the egg with himself at the citadel.

You don't know that there ever was an egg payment in the first place, that the assassin rather than the HoBaW receives payment (the former would interfere with them being "faceless"), or that he has an egg in Oldtown.

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The Kindly man says they are only here to give the gift, not play politics of hatch dragons

He didn't say anything about hatching dragons, and you don't know the Alchemist is trying to do that.

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He also tells Arya she can't show her face to the victim.

CamiloRP explained that.

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before he gives the coin he reveals himself to Pate

No, he does that AFTER Pate has received and bit the coin (thus ensuring his death):

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It's done, Pate told himself. Go. Run back to the Quill and Tankard, wake Rosey with a kiss, and tell her she belongs to you. Yet still he lingered. "Show me your face."

Again your chain of reasoning is founded upon false beliefs.

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If you think the Kindly man is ok with all this, taking the egg to the citadel, trying to hatch the egg, and killing someone by showing your face

There's no evidence for any of that egg stuff, CamiloRP explained why Arya was warned about showing her face, and the Alchemist showed his after knowing Pate would die very shortly.

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He was born in the fires of summerhall. That is why he was obsessed with the prophecy to begin with.

Obsessed with prophecy, but not necessarily hatching dragon eggs, because he didn't have any nor did he have any reason to expect to acquire any.

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He is described as young and attractive. From Arya's perspective, parental would be early thirties, which isn't young.

You are just repeating yourself after I asked you to provide a quote. The text keeps failing to support your claims, that's why I demand quotes.

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We can also deduce he is older than Arya

I could guess that's most likely for any randomly selected person because Arya is quite young.

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The red is dye, not the white

There's no evidence for this. All of his hair changes color without any dye.

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We see him change his face, not just his hair color

Not just, but INCLUDING. The same method could produce a face & hair like that. Jaqen dismisses "killing" his identity at the time, which does not really fit with that being his "true" identity he wants to reclaim.

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But Rhaegar did

No, the scene of Lyanna crying does NOT mention Rhaegar noticing or even looking in her direction.

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There is text, and there is subtext.

The former is what we can all read, the latter has just been in your head. When we've pointed out that you misremember what's in the actual text, you'd think that would cause you to update your beliefs on the subtext. But your views aren't actually based on real evidence, they just float freely.

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plays similar music he did that brought Lyanna to tears

He plays similar music to what he always plays.

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Rhaegar was like Aegon VI, he was not unfaithful to his wife

Aegon VI hasn't married yet, and you don't know the latter bit.

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it is considered a scandal if you reward another women if you are betrothed or married, which is why everyone was so shocked

They would have been shocked by that even if he had been known to have a mistress in KL, as long as that woman wasn't Lyanna.

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he only plays sad music (at a time that should be joyous)

Rhaegar always does that, because no time is joyous for him.

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So she brings up Lyanna herself

Why would she do that shortly after giving birth?

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Did Gregor carry the child over to Tywin, or did they find the body like that.

Does it matter in this context?

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He either went to the house of black and white

Even if I assumed he did have a dragon egg and went there (which I don't), you don't know that he didn't drop it off.

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And he can't be too concerned with her safety. Otherwise he would escort her to Riverrun has she has no protection anymore.

Escorting war orphans around Westeros is not a responsibility or goal of the FM. Acquiring new recruits is.

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And his opinion on the prophecy (after having a third child with Lyanna) may have changed, as it did once before. We don't really know.

You are correct about this being merely a possibility we can't be certain of. It's not common for you to be correct, but it's worth acknowledging. We don't know, so we shouldn't create a chain of reasoning off the assumption that he did come to some new conclusion that we have no evidence for.

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He may have heard about it or seen it

There is no evidence for that.

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Regardless the girl cought his attention enough to name her queen of love and beauty.

That happens after he pursues the KotLT and comes back with the shield. We have no evidence of her catching his attention prior to that.

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He noticed her enough to crown her

He noticed her after the KotLT, we have no evidence he did before then.

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I think people noticed. Which means Rhaegar likely noticed as well.

You think things without any basis in evidence, so that means nothing.

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a girl who was obviously attracted to

Earlier you raised the possibility that he was solely motivated by prophecy rather than attraction and you have not disproved that theory.

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Lyanna was more to him, or otherwise he thought the prophecy required legitimate children.

There's no evidence he thought there was any such requirement. I don't understand your "or".

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Rhaegar could have married Cersei Lannister, one of the most beautiful high born ladies at the time

Aerys rejected her as too lowborn.

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And he was loyal to her

You don't know that, and assuming R+L=J we know he wasn't.

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What do you think Elia thinks Rhaegar thinks about Lyanna?

I don't know, we would have to hear how he explained his actions.

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Lyanna is nice and sweet

She's described as "wild" like Brandon, not "nice and sweet".

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she does nothing to try and twist the knife

You don't know that.

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Of course she would, as I stated above

You stating it doesn't make it so. You say all sorts of nonsense and are wrong quite frequently.

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she wants to give him what he wants

WHY!? Wives generally don't want to give their husband a side-piece.

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Of course she later regrets this

If that's "of course", then why is the opposite also "of course"? It was entirely predictable that pursuing Lyanna would cause trouble, based on Brandon's reaction and everyone's smile dying.

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The Alchemist is telling him to take the maiden, much like Elia told Rhaegar.

We don't have Elia saying that, you only imagined it, and your scenario doesn't make sense.

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No where did I state the Alchemist is a parallel to Elia, he is playing devils advocate to Pate.

That's not what "devil's advocate" means. It's making an argument even if you don't believe it to test the strength of the opposing argument. So when I bring up Jaqen only trying to escape the cage when it's burning, I am playing devil's advocate for the view that he wanted to be locked up in the first place.

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And the Alchemist also shares Elia's blood for what its worth.

It's not worth anying because you haven't proven that to be the case. This all started when you argued Jaqen was really Aegon VI and you've just been assuming that conclusion while arguing for it ever since. You don't seem to understand why that's a logical fallacy.

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But I did establish the parallel.

No, and we have repeatedly explained to you that you haven't. You must rely on the text to establish a parallel, otherwise it's one that only exists in your head. Imagining another dialogue scene to match an existing one doesn't count.

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Speaking of how much he wants a girl (fifteen year old maiden) and then first responding with I am no thief.

The Alchemist is asking him to steal a key, there's nothing at all odd about responding that way. It would be odd to respond to your wife suggesting you run off with a young woman that way.

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What do you think Rhaegar thought he was doing? He was stealing the girl from Robert. That was theft.

It's not referred to as theft, and she wasn't even with Robert at the time (merely betrothed to him).

18 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

hahahhaha I was talking about WWII! t'was supposed to be a joke

Switzerland has been neutral since long before then (as has Sweden).

[CamiloRP]

2 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Yes, once the Others take them I don't think normal human biology matters anymore.

So you think they use them as wights? turn them into Others?

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

40 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

So you think they use them as wights? turn them into Others?

They probably turn them into Others. I don't think the Others would let Craster and his daughters/wives live if they were just turning the babies into wights. Making wights doesn't seem to a problem for the Others but making more Others could be. 

[CamiloRP]

38 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

They probably turn them into Others. I don't think the Others would let Craster and his daughters/wives live if they were just turning the babies into wights. Making wights doesn't seem to a problem for the Others but making more Others could be. 

yeah, that's why I believe they use them for breeding, magically changing their race seems too fantastical for ASOIAF, adn George thinks about this things, as he took out a Tyrion chapter because it was too fantastical