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8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

It is relatively small step from sworn shield of a King's daughter to Kingsguard as for example Sandor Clegane's promotion would testify.

But Criston Cole first became a KG and then Rhaenyra's sworn shield. You are trying to create parallels where none are in the text.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

You could say Jaime is loyal to the "Baratheon" regime  - being sent as Lord Commander of Kingsguard to pacify the Riverlands- also both Jaime's and Cole's travails are tied to Harrenhal.

Cole presumably wanted to join both KG and become Lord Commander - Jaime didn't. He was fucked into becoming a KG and he was made Lord Commander in absentia and didn't approve. Neither Cole nor Jaime have bad experiences at Harrenhal, directly. They are just there for a time.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Ser Cole is accused of murdering Lyman Beesbury by slitting his throat in Small council meeting - which is reminiscent of Jaimie's act.

Yes, that can be seen as a superficial parallel if we go with the version of the slit throat. But Beesbury wasn't a king nor was Cole supposed to protect and obey Beesbury nor was he motivated by whatever Jaime was motivated when he killed Aerys.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

They are both Lord Commander of Kingsguard - not just any knight and leading armies in Riverlands - not simply fought, were best fighters of their time, had liaison with a lady of Royal court - controversial Queen figure that both had three bastards - one of which is named Joffrey...

Rhaenyra's sons can be seen as a nod to Cersei and her children - but that's it: just a nod. The only thing they have in common is a son named Joffrey - and that one was named by the boy's father, Laenor, for his dead friend whereas Joffrey Baratheon apparently was named after the first Andal king of the Westerlands.

Even if Rhaenyra had 'three bastards' - her motivation in that wasn't fuck her stupid brother or betray the king she was married to. She had to get around the fact that she was married to an apparently gay man who didn't live with her and who may very well have refused to ever consummate their marriage.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Any knight can make a knight  - as we see with Perkin the Flea knighting every bum during the Moon of Three Kings. or Beric Dondarrion, or even person could pretend to be a knight like Duncan the Tall.

That is irrelevant since insofar as the social order of Westeros is concerned gutter knights remain gutter knights unless - and at times even after - they get royal patronage and favors.

Jaime and Criston Cole have nothing in common. The first is born to the life of a prince, basically, where Cole actually had to work for everything he got.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Getting murdered in premeditated trap, in a meeting with three renowned warriors - Garibald the Gray, Pete the Lionslayer and Roddy the Ruin - who refuse his challenge, with Robb Rivers finest archer in Westeros and two more have him on scope is selling it short as a "peasants death".

It is a peasant's death in the sense he was just shot dead. Nobody bothered to give him the death of a proper knight by dispatching him a duel or give him the grace of at least attacking him as knights would.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Ser Cole certainly died bravely acknowledging his doom:

That much is clear. But nobody said the man was stupid or a coward.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

It is doubtful that Cole had similar relationship with Rhaenyra, as they met while he was 23 years old and Rhaenyra was 7 year old girl- he spent his next 10 years always being in her proximity  - and it is doubtful he would develop romantical tendencies, unlike other characters like Daemon or Harwin Strong - which is much more plausible version.

There you go against directly against the text. Even if I were to agree with the 'Cole was chaste as an old septa' version - the point remains that, like Littlefinger, he was in a close relationship with a very highborn woman who he started to interact with when she was just a girl.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Despite what George says, Littlefinger's actions speak louder than that- Petyr has large part in downfall of Sansa's family and torment of people dear to her like Jeyne Poole - who he forces in one of his brothels to be "educated" for his purposes. There is hardly any good in that man even in relation to things he cherishes most - like adolescent fantasy of Catelyn.

Criston Cole also plays a rather prominent role in the tragedies that befell Rhaenyra's family, no? That, too, is a parallel here.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Cole is more then only women  - "all he has is his honor and his skill with sword and lance", and he is also linked to Alicent Hightower, her sons as their tutor and even Alys Rivers.

Yes, and Littlefinger also hooks up with the other Tully girl when things don't work with Cat. Cole goes from one royal woman - Rhaenyra - to the next: Alicent Hightower.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

You unwittingly prove another parallel of Jamie and Cole  - they both interfere in presumption of irreproachable royal authority, one by slaying the king and other as supporting other claimant.

Jaime didn't mess with the royal succession. He slew a king who was already a dead man walking.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

As true Varys said - they are both part of the riddle of the power, shadow on the wall, both Jaime and Cole represent swordsman who with his action influences fates of the Realm.

Criston Cole liked to be a politician, Jaime explicitly doesn't want to be a Kingmaker. He still could become one, though, and then there would be a parallel there. But so far Jaime has nothing meaningful in common with that guy.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Aemond is but a mirror image of his uncle Daemon- they are basically same person, yet there was still chance for Aemond's redemption as he was young, Aegon II proved he is less cruel than his half-sister in his actions.

There are parallels there, but Aemond is far more stupid and far more petty than Daemon ever was. The latter was never as stupid as to allow KL to fall, the Fishfeed to happen, not to mention using the largest dragon alive for effectively nothing important.

Not to mention that Daemon never eradicated an entire house - which was closely allied to his king - just out of spite. If one wonders why Larys Strong ended up poisoning Aegon II Aemond's actions may have played a considerable role.

Daemon, on the other hand, actually gets a redemption arc of sorts with Nettles.

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

It is explicitly stated that Aemond didn't command Cole to leave.
In paragraph reason to split  of Aemond and Cole is left far more open, than for example some idiotic suggestions that Rhaenyra had romantic relationship with Laena Velaryon - based on phrase "more than fond".

I didn't say Aemond commanded anyone to leave. I said it was clear that Aemond didn't command Cole and the army to accompany him - because if he had, they would have obeyed.

The split happens because Aemond doesn't care about Cole's plan and because Aemond allows Cole to do what he does - if he had forbidden it, it wouldn't have happened. Cole could only beg Aemond to use his dragon wisely - but Aemond wouldn't listen.

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

To me Cregan Stark seemed to be the guy who arrived at the party,was disgusted by what happened there and decided to leave as soon as he can. This would imply he tought he doesn't belong among southerners and their infectuous life. That seems to had been the attitude the Starks and the North had during the entire Targaryen rule, exxept for a few occasions. I think Cregan Stark had a bif load of this, but on the same page was a bit like lord as Rickard Stark with his southron ambitions. 

Cregan Stark also did some rather weird things while he was there. To me it seems he left because he didn't get what he wanted - a continuation of the war. The whole trial thing was just his last 'Fuck you!' to the guys he would soon abandon.

If he had gotten his way - a continuation of the war - it seems pretty clear that he would have ran the regency government of Aegon III.

I mean, as I see it - chances were pretty good that Cregan Stark could have become Rhaenyra's third husband and the consort at her side if she had decided to go north with the Manderlys rather than go to Dragonstone. Then she would have joined Cregan's army and together they would have retaken KL. There was a marriage pact between the direwolf and the dragon, and with Jace dead and Cregan and Rhaenyra both being widowed this would have been a natural match - just as the marriage alliance between Aegon II and the Baratheons was after Borros retook the capital.

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31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cregan Stark also did some rather weird things while he was there. To me it seems he left because he didn't get what he wanted - a continuation of the war. The whole trial thing was just his last 'Fuck you!' to the guys he would soon abandon.

If he had gotten his way - a continuation of the war - it seems pretty clear that he would have ran the regency government of Aegon III.

Well, the more intriguing question is if he desired war. The fact that he was given the opportunity to rule the realm for a good 5 years at least and decided not to do so implies he did not desire control over the realm, whatever good that would've meant for him (and we know a position of regent could be profitable). Of course it's a dangerous game as well. Had Aegon III not been as careless as he was about Jaehaera (and mostly everyone and everything except for his brother), he would've ordered the death of Unwin Peake the minute his regency ended. Or probably even before. 

Back to Cregan Stark: I see his action of leaving behind the opportunity of becoming regent as an evidence of his northern nature, which is kind of conservative and arrogant. He might had been mad about going down South pointlessly (in the end, it really was pointless), and his actions during his time at King's Landing probably were the fruit of the feeling that he would be somewhat of a clown if he leaves without putting any weight at the table. But that still doesn't make him any better for me, as the later tragedies and unfortunate events surrounding King's Landing were the direct consequences of his actions (and I mean leaving everything for opportunists and the like of that). 

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

mean, as I see it - chances were pretty good that Cregan Stark could have become Rhaenyra's third husband and the consort at her side if she had decided to go north with the Manderlys rather than go to Dragonstone. Then she would have joined Cregan's army and together they would have retaken KL. There was a marriage pact between the direwolf and the dragon, and with Jace dead and Cregan and Rhaenyra both being widowed this would have been a natural match - just as the marriage alliance between Aegon II and the Baratheons was after Borros retook the capital.

Not sure why you think that would've happened. Cregan Stark was just past 20, Rhaenyra in her mid-thirties. And at that point she had given birth to 6 children, which of course meant she was a fertile woman, but at the same time his last child, Visenya was a stillborn and magically deformed as well (still not sure why, or why she had the idea his brother's treachery is responsible for that). Fertility decreases not only with age, but with pregnancies as well, and it was really-really unusual for nobility and royalty as well to marry women in their thirties, hell, even women in their twenties werw much less favored than the ones below 20. At the time of Cregan house Stark wasn't a populous one at all, he had a single son (his heir) from his previous marriage, but no other living male members, if I'm not wrong. For a man in this big of a need of children, Rhaenyra Targaryen really wasn't a good option. And such a marriage could've ceiled down Cregan for his entire life. Alysanne gave birth to Gael at the age of 43, and she was exceptionally fertile and fit (which Rhaenyra wasn't) in her life. 

If anything, then he would've arranged a betorthal for himself with Baela or Rhaena (who were 13 at the time, I think). Altough I still am not sure why wasn't one of the twins considered for Aegon. Especially Rhaena. She had a dragon at the time, and the regency allowed her to marry a 30 year-old unlanded knight from the Vale (I imagine they did not dare oppose a dragonrider, or I dunno). But Rhaenyra? Not sure. The woman wasn't healty nor phisically (she was bedridden after her last pregnancy), nor mentally (she wasn't necesarilly mad or a lunatic at the time, but she definitely had a quite unusual and big mental breakdown at the time).

This probably makes as much sense as saying Aegon II should've married her instead of feeding her to Sunfyre. (now I wonder how that would've turned out) 

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12 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Robert ran the kingdom into the ground with his debts and such, was cuckolded by his wife and you think he was good?Not to mention smiling over the corpses of children.  Oh, sure, he was better than Aegon II. But in the end, I think they both would have had the same impacts (except for being cuckolded of course) 

Yep he wasn't the best of Kings, yet he was capable of acts of mercy and redemption - like making some right choices on his deathbed,  maybe too late but still it's something.

But Robert riding a dragon wielding a huge warhammer, would be some sight to behold - even better then when he rode "The Last Dragon's" ass on the Trident.

12 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

True on Aemond being redeemable, but if Aemond could be redeemable from a young age, then so can Daemon. 

My opinion is based on their age  - since Aemond was 20 year old at time of his death, and Daemon was 49 or something and despite his life experience - championed some of the worst decisions during the war:  recruiting Dalton Greyjoy appealing on his bloodlust, promoting people like Mysaria, Luthor Largent and two betrayers, and blood & cheese.

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8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Never tought I see someone explicitly claim Aegon II was having a redemption arc. Tell that to lil Aegon III whom he would've killed or at least castrated if it wasn't for Corlys who would've become free of their leverage over him that way. Or to Rhaenyra's remaining leg which fell out of Sunfyre's mouth. And he made the boy watch. A 10 year-old kid. 

Bring me one example, please, and not that he didn't kill Aegon. The guy was not groomed to rule (which is a dumb move, considering Alicent was thinking of taking the throne for his son waaay before Viserys' death) , so he never was good at it. Even when the war is ended, he is interested in two things: Getting rid of Rhaenyra's line and finding a new wife for himself to have children. While the enemy was knocking at their door. He did not realise he might not live to see the next day (not because Larys Strong and Corlys who poisoned him but because the army that was marching towards him), because he couldn't think of anything else than winning against his sister, (who's place by now was taken by Aegon) meaning he has to make an heir of his own, so that he can get rid of the weight that his nephew inheriting put on him. 

 

Who said explicitly that Aegon II had a redemption arc? I compared him to Theon for which there are plenty of parallels. ( lecherousness, general douchiness, suffering terrible injuries in the war- including his reproductive organs, having to murder or threaten lives of children to keep their social position, being offered to take the Black in pivotal moments of their lives - which they both refuse).

Aegon the Younger was a hostage - various characters take hostages even hundreds of years later - like Eddard Stark, Jon Snow, Daenerys, Robb Stark, Lannister's.

When army supporting their hostage is approaching intent of killing them - they don't have much choice than to use them to their defense. Advice to murder Aegon the Younger was actually given by Ser Tyland Lannister believing Black armies would disintegrate after loosing their claimant, which In my opinion wouldn't be possible because even without Viserys who lived still they had Rhaena of Pentos and her dragon to rally to.

Aegon II's two sons and wife died - influenced or directly caused by decisions of Rhaenyra and Daemon - blood & cheese, knight's inquisitor, Maelor being torn to pieces in place supporting Rhaenyra, Mysaria's torment or Luthor Largent,  so he really had just reasons to execute Rhaenyra though making her son watch was indeed cruel, he just didn't seem to care being focused on getting his revenge.

Aegon might have done worse  if he was truly cruel - like his half sister, like kill Aegon before his mother,or kill Baela after she attacked Sunfyre with Moondancer, wounds that would prove fatal to his dragon- yet they both survived as Aegon is showing more restraint.

Rhaenyra was groomed to rule yet she failed miserably - especially in allowing the death of her hostage, her son and all dragons - including her own - not even once mounting it in battle unlike Aegon, it doesn't prove much - if he was more reasonable as Corlys suggested and offered pardons - it would might have changed Aegon's fate, or Borros Baratheon not being idiot and charging uphill on the shield wall  in the muddy terrain- not remembering the battle of the Last Storm, or Crownlands army not betraying at the Battle of Kingsroad

 

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1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

But Robert riding a dragon wielding a huge warhammer, would be some sight to behold - even better then when he rode "The Last Dragon's" ass on the Trident.

 

I would've loved to see that prophecy obsessed idiot Rhaegar burned by a dragon, but it's unlikely that Robert had enough of the blood of the dragon to actually ride a dragon. 

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

If anything, then he would've arranged a betorthal for himself with Baela or Rhaena (who were 13 at the time, I think). Altough I still am not sure why wasn't one of the twins considered for Aegon. Especially Rhaena. She had a dragon at the time, and the regency allowed her to marry a 30 year-old unlanded knight from the Vale (I imagine they did not dare oppose a dragonrider, or I dunno).

I mean, Aegon was too young to sire an heir, so while a marriage would help unite their claims it wouldn't magically age him up old enough to have a son. As for Cregan, it's likely he wouldn't have wanted a "southron lady" for a wife. 

46 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Aegon might have done worse  if he was truly cruel - like his half sister, like kill Aegon before his mother,or kill Baela after she attacked Sunfyre with Moondancer, wounds that would prove fatal to his dragon- yet they both survived as Aegon is showing more restraint.

 

Aegon was about to chop off Baela's head twice. The first time, he veered off because the maester reminded her that she could be used to keep House Velaryon placid. The second time, because he received ravens telling him about new developments. 

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7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Well, the more intriguing question is if he desired war. The fact that he was given the opportunity to rule the realm for a good 5 years at least and decided not to do so implies he did not desire control over the realm, whatever good that would've meant for him (and we know a position of regent could be profitable). Of course it's a dangerous game as well. Had Aegon III not been as careless as he was about Jaehaera (and mostly everyone and everything except for his brother), he would've ordered the death of Unwin Peake the minute his regency ended. Or probably even before. 

The impression I have is that Cregan Stark eventually lost his game to control the court and government of Aegon III. The regency government that was set after his trial - the council of seven regents - wasn't something he had in mind. That was part of the compromises that were reached after the remaining 'Greens' had accepted Corlys Velaryon's terms for peace.

Cregan could not hope to truly dominate a the regency council, so rather than being a part of it he left.

If he had remained 'the Hand of the Uncrowned King' after the trials he could have decided what kind of regency government would be formed. And with him as Hand he would have continued to run the show even if he had to accept some kind of regency council just as Tyland Lannister, Unwin Peake, etc. ran the show when they rose to the Handship. Because the Hand could act as an individual and was running the day-to-day government, anyway, whereas the regents could only make pretty big decision when they sat in council.

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Not sure why you think that would've happened. Cregan Stark was just past 20, Rhaenyra in her mid-thirties. And at that point she had given birth to 6 children, which of course meant she was a fertile woman, but at the same time his last child, Visenya was a stillborn and magically deformed as well (still not sure why, or why she had the idea his brother's treachery is responsible for that). Fertility decreases not only with age, but with pregnancies as well, and it was really-really unusual for nobility and royalty as well to marry women in their thirties, hell, even women in their twenties werw much less favored than the ones below 20. At the time of Cregan house Stark wasn't a populous one at all, he had a single son (his heir) from his previous marriage, but no other living male members, if I'm not wrong. For a man in this big of a need of children, Rhaenyra Targaryen really wasn't a good option. And such a marriage could've ceiled down Cregan for his entire life. Alysanne gave birth to Gael at the age of 43, and she was exceptionally fertile and fit (which Rhaenyra wasn't) in her life. 

Rhaenyra was the queen. At her side Cregan would have been effectively king. That is something very few men can hope for. And as you say, he already had an heir, and there were other Starks around (Cregan didn't kill his uncle nor his cousins - he imprisoned them).

Rhaenyra was fertile and only 33. They could have children if they were so inclined. Rhaenyra's age would also make it not unlikely that Cregan would outlive her, allowing him to take another wife in old age (as he did after Aly's death).

As for the stillborn Visenya - it seems clear that Rhaenyra blamed her traitor kin for her death because the stress caused by her father's death and the subsequent coup is what brought on the early birth. Whether we talk here about a truly disfigured child or simply a stillbirth Mushroom later described as monstrous is by no means clear. But with the Targaryens even that kind of thing can happen if we think about how Rhaego was apparently alive in the womb and a monstrous stillbirth when he was born

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

If anything, then he would've arranged a betorthal for himself with Baela or Rhaena (who were 13 at the time, I think). Altough I still am not sure why wasn't one of the twins considered for Aegon. Especially Rhaena. She had a dragon at the time, and the regency allowed her to marry a 30 year-old unlanded knight from the Vale (I imagine they did not dare oppose a dragonrider, or I dunno). But Rhaenyra? Not sure. The woman wasn't healty nor phisically (she was bedridden after her last pregnancy), nor mentally (she wasn't necesarilly mad or a lunatic at the time, but she definitely had a quite unusual and big mental breakdown at the time).

Baela and Rhaena were not close to the throne. Marrying them wouldn't give Cregan the kind of power he could have had as Rhaenyra's consort.

Things with the twins are pretty clear. Aegon III had to marry Jaehaera as part of the peace deal - and to ensure the Greens wouldn't use her as a rival pretender. Her claim to the Iron Throne was better than that of Aegon III as per the interpretation of certain people. He was already married to Jaehaera when the regents were looking for husbands for the twins.

When Jaehaera died and everybody was looking for a second wife for Aegon III both Baela and Rhaena were already married - and Rhaena was not yet widowed. Corwyn Corbray died only after Aegon III had already married Daenaera Velaryon - and she is effectively the adoptive daughter of Baela and Alyn, anyway, considering she was an orphan at the time.

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

This probably makes as much sense as saying Aegon II should've married her instead of feeding her to Sunfyre. (now I wonder how that would've turned out) 

Oh, I've suggested that a couple of times. It could have worked if both had been willing to make a peace. In fact, if Aegon II had had any 'character development' something like that should have at least been considered. Neither Rhaenyra nor Aegon had hurt the other directly - the ugly things had been done by others. Rhaenyra herself had spared both Helaena and Alicent, so that should have counted for something.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I've suggested that a couple of times. It could have worked if both had been willing to make a peace. In fact, if Aegon II had had any 'character development' something like that should have at least been considered. Neither Rhaenyra nor Aegon had hurt the other directly - the ugly things had been done by others. Rhaenyra herself had spared both Helaena and Alicent, so that should have counted for something

She spared them so that she could torment them, and Helaena was dead soon as Green army was approaching the city.

Quote

 

Huge rewards were posted for information leading to the capture of “the usurper styling himself Aegon II”; his daughter, Jaehaera; his son Maelor; the “false knights” Willis Fell and Rickard Thorne; and Larys Strong the Clubfoot. When that failed to produce the desired result, Her Grace sent forth hunting parties of “knights inquisitor” to seek after the “traitors and villains” who had escaped her, and punish any man found to have assisted them.

Queen Alicent was fettered at wrist and ankle with golden chains, though her stepdaughter spared her life “for the sake of our father, who loved you once.” Her own father was less fortunate. Ser Otto Hightower, who had served three kings as Hand, was the first traitor to be beheaded. Ironrod followed him to the block, still insisting that by law a king’s son must come before his daughter. Ser Tyland Lannister was given to the torturers instead, in hopes of recovering some of the Crown’s treasure.

...

It fell to the queen herself to choose between her consort and her Hand. Rhaenyra decided to steer a middle course. She would send envoys to Storm’s End and Casterly Rock, offering fair terms and pardons… after she had put an end to the usurper’s brothers, who were in the field against her. “Once they are dead, the rest will bend the knee. Slay their dragons, that I might mount their heads upon the walls of my throne room. Let men look upon them in the years to come, that they might know the cost of treason.”

...

"Mushroom, who loved the queen well, tells us that Rhaenyra wept when Maelor’s small head was placed before her as she sat the Iron Throne. Septon Eustace, who loved her little, says rather that she smiled, and commanded that the head be burned, “for he was the blood of the dragon.” Though no announcement of the boy’s death was made, word of his demise nonetheless spread throughout the city. And soon another tale was told as well, one that claimed Queen Rhaenyra had the prince’s head delivered to his mother, Queen Helaena, in a chamberpot. Though the story had no truth in it, soon it was on every pair of lips in King’s Landing. Mushroom puts this down as the Clubfoot’s work. “A man who gathers whispers can spread them just as well.”

...

Brothel Queens

 

...

Rhaenyra's death was one of rare just Aegon II's decisions though it was maybe too cruelly enacted by forcing her son to watch it - influencing in Aegon becoming the Dragonbane.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

She spared them so that she could torment them, and Helaena was dead soon as Green army was approaching the city.

...

Rhaenyra's death was one of rare just Aegon II's decisions.

I'm not sure discussing things with you makes much sense. You actually to tell us here that spurious claims like the Brothel Queen story actually constitute facts ... when we all know that we don't actually have refute your claims because the very structure of FaB refutes them. I don't really care about how one can make the Greens look but rather what's actually in the text.

But even if the worst stories about Rhaenyra were true - she still is just only the one reacting to the violence and bloodshed of her enemies. She is effectively Wyman 'The Cannibal' Manderly to Aegon's Walder Frey. If you are pushed around by scum you push back harder. That's not a big deal.

Even Eustace cannot really tell really bad stories about Rhaenyra. Who cares if she smiled about the death of little Maelor if her next step according to the same source was commanding that Maelor's remains be burned, i.e. the boy be given a proper Targaryen burial? She could have just thrown him out in the yard like Maegor did, at first, with Viserys' corpse. Or she could have treated Maelor like Aegon would later treat her - feed him to her dragon. We don't know that Aegon II had Rhaenyra's remaining leg given a proper Targaryen burial. There is no mention there about a cremation and a subsequent interment with the other Targaryen remains on Dragonstone.

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15 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Who said explicitly that Aegon II had a redemption arc? I compared him to Theon for which there are plenty of parallels. ( lecherousness, general douchiness, suffering terrible injuries in the war- including his reproductive organs, having to murder or threaten lives of children to keep their social position, being offered to take the Black in pivotal moments of their lives - which they both refuse).

You either misunderstand Theon Greyjoy or Aegon II. These aren't things you make your parallels covered in with. 

Both being lecherous means nothing so far. Nor being a douche. These are characteristics half the population has. 

Theon was tortured and mutilated in a dungeon cell while Aegon was maimed in a dragonbowl. The two aren't the same at all. 

We also don't know how much Aegon's reproductive organs were hurt. So far noone tought his intention to remarry was entirely pointless. 

The threatening children part is also not the best. Aegon the Younger was a threat himself, that's why his life was in danger at the first place. Bran and Rickon? Not so much. They were tools of control, they weren't threatened unless they escaped. But yea, in each situation children were taken hostages. Big deal. 

And the Black is offered to many prople. Wanna count how many people do fit these expectations? 

Besides: Theon was  acting out of character when he did bad things, he wanted to prove he's worthy for being his father's heir, and fell into it, got the worst and began it's journey of redemption. Aegon? He died the man he's always been. There was nothing that got the better of him at anything, and the fact that you're comparing Theon to him is a bad joke.

Theon wanted to belomg somewhere (altough he was good friends with Robb already, only he didn't realise the value of that), wanted to prove his worth, and was abandoned by his own villainous party. Received more than what he deserved fod his crimes, and since then he's looking for forgiveness. Aegon? Probably spent his life from age 14 (or since he realised the joy in that) drinking and whoring. Of course his feelings towards Rhaenyra were somewhat righteous, as he should've inherited due to male preferance. But Rhaenyra was named heir, weren't her feelings that her queenship was usurped righteous as well? Nevermind, Aegon wasn't fit to rule more than Rhaenyra (no, he wasn't), wasn't EVER morally on the higher ground than her. 

You can draw parallels between similarities or opposites, but not between differences, and oh boy, Theon never was in the same league as Aegon II. He had his downfall, will have his redemption as well, unlike Aegon, who died the terrible person he just was. 

Notice how you're alone with your opinion (regarding Aegon)? Surely that means something. 

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42 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You either misunderstand Theon Greyjoy or Aegon II. These aren't things you make your parallels covered in with. 

Both being lecherous means nothing so far. Nor being a douche. These are characteristics half the population has. 

Theon was tortured and mutilated in a dungeon cell while Aegon was maimed in a dragonbowl. The two aren't the same at all. 

We also don't know how much Aegon's reproductive organs were hurt. So far noone tought his intention to remarry was entirely pointless. 

The threatening children part is also not the best. Aegon the Younger was a threat himself, that's why his life was in danger at the first place. Bran and Rickon? Not so much. They were tools of control, they weren't threatened unless they escaped. But yea, in each situation children were taken hostages. Big deal. 

And the Black is offered to many prople. Wanna count how many people do fit these expectations? 

Besides: Theon was  acting out of character when he did bad things, he wanted to prove he's worthy for being his father's heir, and fell into it, got the worst and began it's journey of redemption. Aegon? He died the man he's always been. There was nothing that got the better of him at anything, and the fact that you're comparing Theon to him is a bad joke.

Theon wanted to belomg somewhere (altough he was good friends with Robb already, only he didn't realise the value of that), wanted to prove his worth, and was abandoned by his own villainous party. Received more than what he deserved fod his crimes, and since then he's looking for forgiveness. Aegon? Probably spent his life from age 14 (or since he realised the joy in that) drinking and whoring. Of course his feelings towards Rhaenyra were somewhat righteous, as he should've inherited due to male preferance. But Rhaenyra was named heir, weren't her feelings that her queenship was usurped righteous as well? Nevermind, Aegon wasn't fit to rule more than Rhaenyra (no, he wasn't), wasn't EVER morally on the higher ground than her. 

You can draw parallels between similarities or opposites, but not between differences, and oh boy, Theon never was in the same league as Aegon II. He had his downfall, will have his redemption as well, unlike Aegon, who died the terrible person he just was. 

Notice how you're alone with your opinion (regarding Aegon)? Surely that means something. 

Aegon II is arguably one of the worst characters in the entire series. The guy has no development at all and learns nothing from his suffering.

This is very well illustrated by the fact that according to all sources we have his own actions very much cost him his throne and his life. He is neither able or willing to make peace with his enemies nor does he have to political acumen to realize that the people around him are not willing to go down with him. How stupid he was is very well illustrated by the ridiculous statues he commissions - I'm looking forward to Aegon III throwing those heads on the literal midden heap of history ;-).

In a very real sense, Aegon II was never more than a pawn - the pawn of his mother, the pawn of his grandfather, the pawn of Criston Cole, even the pawn of the men who used him to take Dragonstone (the Toms, Alfred Broome).

He isn't even justified in wanting to be heir to the throne - according to our sources he didn't actually want this but was pushed into the role of king by his mother, his grandfather, and Criston Cole. Rhaenyra was Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne since before Aegon's birth so he and his brothers all grew up knowing very well that neither of them would sit the Iron Throne. They were fed the idea that Aegon should be king by Alicent and her allies, that's not a desire that came naturally to Aegon. In that sense they are not all that different in their delusions from Daemon Blackfyre, say, or Renly.

We don't even know whether the issues Aegon and Rhaenyra had had to do with her being the heir and not just with the fact that Alicent and Rhaenyra no longer got along. If Aegon didn't want to be king then Aegon likely had other issues with his half-sister.

That the siblings didn't get along is hardly a surprise considering Aegon's general personality. The guy was an ass, and that may have shown rather early in his life.

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10 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You either misunderstand Theon Greyjoy or Aegon II. These aren't things you make your parallels covered in with. 

Both being lecherous means nothing so far. Nor being a douche. These are characteristics half the population has. 

Theon was tortured and mutilated in a dungeon cell while Aegon was maimed in a dragonbowl. The two aren't the same at all. 

We also don't know how much Aegon's reproductive organs were hurt. So far noone tought his intention to remarry was entirely pointless. 

The threatening children part is also not the best. Aegon the Younger was a threat himself, that's why his life was in danger at the first place. Bran and Rickon? Not so much. They were tools of control, they weren't threatened unless they escaped. But yea, in each situation children were taken hostages. Big deal. 

And the Black is offered to many prople. Wanna count how many people do fit these expectations? 

Besides: Theon was  acting out of character when he did bad things, he wanted to prove he's worthy for being his father's heir, and fell into it, got the worst and began it's journey of redemption. Aegon? He died the man he's always been. There was nothing that got the better of him at anything, and the fact that you're comparing Theon to him is a bad joke.

Theon wanted to belomg somewhere (altough he was good friends with Robb already, only he didn't realise the value of that), wanted to prove his worth, and was abandoned by his own villainous party. Received more than what he deserved fod his crimes, and since then he's looking for forgiveness. Aegon? Probably spent his life from age 14 (or since he realised the joy in that) drinking and whoring. Of course his feelings towards Rhaenyra were somewhat righteous, as he should've inherited due to male preferance. But Rhaenyra was named heir, weren't her feelings that her queenship was usurped righteous as well? Nevermind, Aegon wasn't fit to rule more than Rhaenyra (no, he wasn't), wasn't EVER morally on the higher ground than her. 

You can draw parallels between similarities or opposites, but not between differences, and oh boy, Theon never was in the same league as Aegon II. He had his downfall, will have his redemption as well, unlike Aegon, who died the terrible person he just was. 

Notice how you're alone with your opinion (regarding Aegon)? Surely that means something. 

 

Result of their torture is the same, they are both ruined image of promising careless youth they were.

There is more enough to show that Aegon II injuries influenced him in similar way to Theon ( for example when taunted by Mance Rayder's spearwives):
 

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Whilst plots and counterplots swirled around him, and enemies closed in from every side, Aegon II remained oblivious. The king was not a well man. The burns he’d suffered at Rook’s Rest had left scars that covered half his body. Mushroom says they had rendered him impotent as well. Nor could he walk. His leap from Sunfyre’s back at Dragonstone had broken his right leg in two places, and shattered the bones in his left. The right had healed well, Grand Maester Orwyle records; not so the left. The muscles of that leg had atrophied, the knee stiffening, the flesh melting away until only a withered stick remained, so twisted that Orwyle thought His Grace might do better were it cut away entirely. The king would not hear of it, however. Instead he was carried hither and yon by litter. Only toward the end did he regain the strength to walk with the aid of a crutch, dragging his bad leg behind him.

In constant pain during the last half year of his life, Aegon seemed to take pleasure only in contemplating his forthcoming marriage. Even the capers of his fools never made him laugh, we are told by Mushroom, the foremost of those fools…though “His Grace did smile from time to time at my sallies, and liked to keep me by his side to lighten his melancholy and help him dress.” Though no longer himself capable of sexual congress due to his burns, according to the dwarf, Aegon still felt carnal urges, and would often watch from behind a curtain as one of his favorites coupled with a serving girl or lady of the court. Most often Tom Tangletongue performed this task for him, we are told; at other times certain knights of the household took the place of dishonor, and thrice Mushroom himself was pressed into service. After these sessions, the fool says, the king would weep for shame and summon Septon Eustace to grant him absolution. (Eustace says nothing of this in his own account of Aegon’s final days.)

They are both given choice to take the black in the moment while the settlement they are holding - King's Landing /Winterfell is being surrounded by superior army and both are for moment given to ponder the chance but they refused it :
 

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“Your Grace,” the Sea Snake said, when the rump of the once proud green council had assembled, “you must surrender. The city cannot endure another sack. Save your people and save yourself. If you abdicate in favor of Prince Aegon, he will allow you to take the black and live out your life with honor on the Wall.”

Will he?” King Aegon said. Munkun tells us he sounded hopeful.

His mother entertained no such hope. “You fed his mother to your dragon,” she reminded her son. “The boy saw it all.”

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I have no hope, he thought. Yet he lowered the bow half an inch and said, "I will not run." "I do not speak of running. Take the black." "The Night's Watch?" Theon let the bow unbend slowly and pointed the arrow at the ground.

"Ser Rodrik has served House Stark all his life, and House Stark has always been a friend to the Watch. He will not deny you. Open your gates, lay down your arms, accept his terms, and he must let you take the black." A brother of the Night's Watch. It meant no crown, no sons, no wife . . . but it meant life, and life with honor. Ned Stark's own brother had chosen the Watch, and Jon Snow as well. I have black garb aplenty, once I tear the krakens off. Even my horse is black. I could rise high in the Watch—chief of rangers, likely even Lord Commander. Let Asha keep the bloody islands, they're as dreary as she is. If I served at Eastwatch, I could command my own ship, and there's fine hunting beyond the Wall. As for women, what wildling woman wouldn't want a prince in her bed? A slow smile crept across his face. A black cloak can't be turned. I'd be as good as any man.

Maybe half population are lecherous or douches, as you speak from personal experience or introspection mayhaps?

Yet not many characters in Asoiaf have all those parallels at same time. Also you can't compare each character you dislike with Joffrey, as there are many sort of villainous douchey nobleman characters like - Viserys, Aerion Brightflame, Gerold Dayne, Leo Tyrell even in other Martin's novels like Annelyn or  Bretan Braith.

It is ridiculous notion that Theon was "acting out of character" in doing many of his gruesome misdeeds, including allowing rape and murder by his men while he took control of Winterfell, murder of miller's wife who he did sleep whit frequently while she was begging him for mercy and two of her young boys, it is also ridiculous notion that his redemption is fully deserved or guaranteed - he easily might end up burned or decapitated in next chapters, or caught by Ramsey - various degrees of justice.

Aegon actually in some sources shows restraint in claiming the throne, he clearly shows love toward his family - especially his brothers and dragon- I doubt all was black about that man, there might have been something golden besides Sunfyre.

Regarding your "herd mentality" and claim that there is certain truth in numbers  I say this : "Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned".

 

 

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13 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Result of their torture is the same, they are both ruined image of promising careless youth they were

Now, excuse me what the fuck? Torture? Aegon II was never tortured. He was kind of crippled/maimed in a dragonbattle! Poor dragonriders, what a torture it must have been for them to kill the ones they wanted dead with dragons. Your interpretation is very....interesting.:bs:

13 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

There is more enough to show that Aegon II injuries influenced him in similar way to Theon ( for example when taunted by Mance Rayder's spearwives):

And now we're talking about injuries. So far I couldn't find any moment in the books Theon was phisically so disabled he couldn't walk. He lost his penis and fingers (and his mental health was pretty ruined as well). No limbs/bones broken. But I guess that makes a perfect parallel? :thumbsdown:

13 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

They are both given choice to take the black in the moment while the settlement they are holding - King's Landing /Winterfell is being surrounded by superior army and both are for moment given to ponder the chance but they refused it :

Which is a thing you can build your parallel up on. But this doesn't really narrow down the circle does it? (I also tought we discussed this earlier, but throwing the same thing into the discussion provides progress according to you).

13 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Maybe half population are lecherous or douches, as you speak from personal experience or introspection mayhaps?

Not sure what you want to accomplish with accusing (???) me of being an asshole. It doesn't benefit our conversation, but describes you instead.

Also, I might be a douche myself, but so far I didn't give you a reason to assume that, so f**k off.(sry)

13 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Yet not many characters in Asoiaf have all those parallels at same time. 

 Dude, there is no parallel. :lol:

 

13 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Also you can't compare each character you dislike with Joffrey, as there are many sort of villainous douchey nobleman characters like - Viserys, Aerion Brightflame, Gerold Dayne, Leo Tyrell even in other Martin's novels like Annelyn or  Bretan Braith.

I don't remember comparing Aegon II to Joffrey. They're not even similar. Except for both being hardcore mofos. That doesn't make them parallels, especially since Joffrey was a mentally ruined, insane guy, whereas Aegon wasn't. But still, I could find more similarities between him and Aegon than you present and wouldn't call it a parallel like you do it with Theon. 

 

13 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

It is ridiculous notion that Theon was "acting out of character" in doing many of his gruesome misdeeds, including allowing rape and murder by his men while he took control of Winterfell, murder of miller's wife who he did sleep whit frequently while she was begging him for mercy and two of her young boys, it is also ridiculous notion that his redemption is fully deserved or guaranteed - he easily might end up burned or decapitated in next chapters, or caught by Ramsey - various degrees of justice.

I actually can accept that you disagree with me here, but that doesn't make him any closer to Aegon. Even if he dies, he died having progress. In case he dies, he'll die being sorry for what he did, and while trying to do the best since he got out of the deepest den of his mental darkness. A broken soul, he is, unlike Aegon. 

13 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Aegon actually in some sources shows restraint in claiming the throne, he clearly shows love toward his family - especially his brothers and dragon- I doubt all was black about that man, there might have been something golden besides Sunfyre.

He shows restraint because he is a careless drunkard, who also happens to hate his halfsister. (and that is the reason he is willing to take the throne). 

You mean the family he doesn't give a damn about? He clearly gave a damn about the death of his brothers, sisterwife (whom he cheated daily, and she hated him, even if he didn't hate her) AND sons. We never saw him mourn after any of them, nor does he seem to be mentally affected like Rhaenyra. And that just makes him even more different  from Theon. 

You want to see a caring parent? Look at Helaena, who goes nuts after the death of his sons. And I mean nuts. Where is Aegon to that? Nowhere. No mourning, just thinking about remarrying so that he stop his nephew from succeding him on the throne. 

Probably no sons of Alicent were actually affected by the death of their brothers. Aegon wasn't because he was the man I described before, Aemond wasn't because he was even worse, and his brother's injury and supposed death make him king in all but name. Daeron wasn't because he was nowhere as bad (if one wants to call him bad) as his brothers (meaning his feelings towards them might not have been that simpathetic towards them), and he was squiring at Oldtown since age 10. He is a sensible guy, it seems (tho that might be due to his young age), but he is really furious about Maelor's death, who happened to be a little child, not grown terrible persons like his brothers. 

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On 9/7/2021 at 1:34 AM, Eltharion21 said:

Daemon is hardly anything like Jaime Lannister- he is a version of Oberyn or with some hints of Tyrion Lannister darker personality and issues. 

If any character is similar to Jaime Lannister it is Ser Criston Cole, with multitude of parallels, for example:

Personally I think they're a lot alike. Both seem completely irredeemable at a first glance but both also have a lovable side that was already there even at their worst moment. Even before the audience knew of Jaime's hidden depth it was already established his soldiers, and family almost universally loved him just as how the Gold Cloak never stopped adoring their old commander. Both have a reputation consisting of both respect and scorn with no person alive doubting Jaime's ability but detesting his lack of honor, and similarly Daemon's ability being praised by friend and foe alike while his conduct being considered horrifying. Both Jaime and Daemon also seem to have a rebellious streak in them. Jaime having a past where he was considered rather hot blooded just as Daemon was a rowdy young man willing to gather soldiers and fight for his brothers claim, both of them are also among the most skilled soldiers in Westeros and leading military commanders in their factions. And just like Jaime slowly becoming unnerved about the corruption in Cersei so does Daemon get concerned about the corruption in his own wife. 

Both are also to some extend failures. Jaime is full of regret about his career and despite his fearsome reputation its worth noting that Daemon never actually succeeds in any of his endeavors. And in the end both seem to crave some level of redemption which will likely end up killing them both.

Their reputation in Westeros, role in their faction, relation to the lower classes and their wives all seem rather similar. 

On 9/8/2021 at 4:39 AM, Eltharion21 said:

Aemond is but a mirror image of his uncle Daemon- they are basically same person, yet there was still chance for Aemond's redemption as he was young, Aegon II proved he is less cruel than his half-sister in his actions.

I don't think they are much alike. Aemond is just Joffrey with a dragon. He's cruel, petty, immature, likely insane and overall more of a burden to his faction than a help. He lacks his uncle's status, ability and temperament. Even if we conclude they're both evil then Aemond is evil because he's insane, but Daemon is evil because he's just a really bad person. Daemon's evil acts are because he sees what he wants and makes plans to get it no matter the cost. Aemond's evil acts likely stem purely from insanity and immaturity. 

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Ser Cole on the other hand was possibly right in attempt to stop Daemon's and Rhaenyra's corruption in ruining the Seven Kingdoms.

But that's ultimately not Cole's decision to make and its rather revealing to his character. With mad and incompetent kinds the Kingsguard did its duty but Cole decided to intervene and betray his oath instead. However unlike incompetence and cruelty his breaking point was....Rhaenyra being a bit of a slut. That's what horrified him so you get the situation of an awful man plunging the Kingdom into a civil war because a woman didn't pass his purity check. It sounds downright petty compared to the plight of any other Kingsguard. And it gets even worse if it all really just was about Cole being a man scorned which his conduct during Rhaenryra's wedding makes very likely. 

On the whole I don't think Cole and Jaime are very alike. Jaime in his own way does really desire to do the right thing while Cole seems entirely driven by his own desires, his own political stances and his own glory. And while Jaime takes his oaths surprisingly seriously for a Kingslayer Cole does not take his own oaths seriously at all. They're both on the Kingsguard and they're both good warriors but that's where the similarities end. 

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22 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Personally I think they're a lot alike. Both seem completely irredeemable at a first glance but both also have a lovable side that was already there even at their worst moment. Even before the audience knew of Jaime's hidden depth it was already established his soldiers, and family almost universally loved him just as how the Gold Cloak never stopped adoring their old commander. Both have a reputation consisting of both respect and scorn with no person alive doubting Jaime's ability but detesting his lack of honor, and similarly Daemon's ability being praised by friend and foe alike while his conduct being considered horrifying. Both Jaime and Daemon also seem to have a rebellious streak in them. Jaime having a past where he was considered rather hot blooded just as Daemon was a rowdy young man willing to gather soldiers and fight for his brothers claim, both of them are also among the most skilled soldiers in Westeros and leading military commanders in their factions. And just like Jaime slowly becoming unnerved about the corruption in Cersei so does Daemon get concerned about the corruption in his own wife. 

Both are also to some extend failures. Jaime is full of regret about his career and despite his fearsome reputation its worth noting that Daemon never actually succeeds in any of his endeavors. And in the end both seem to crave some level of redemption which will likely end up killing them both.

Their reputation in Westeros, role in their faction, relation to the lower classes and their wives all seem rather similar. 

There is depth to character of Jaime, huge part are introspection, judgement and development- for which we can thank his Pov chapters, which we don't have for characters of Fire & Blood, therefore  Daemon seems like a sketch of character - with hints of Red Viper, and poor man's Elric of Melnibone like Darkstar - "the most dangerous man in Dorne".

Topics like honor, evil , justice, chivalry, oaths are all encompassed in his character. Jaime himself reminds me besides Ser Cole a bit of Maedhros also, though never of lordling fleabottom.

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It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around.

---

And me, that boy I was ... when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

---

I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.

---

When he was done, more than three-quarters of his page still remained to be filled between the gold lion on the crimson shield on top and the blank white shield at the bottom. Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to write for himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth.
Whatever he chose . . .

 

Main characteristics of Daemon that Jaime lacks besides roguishness was his ambition, capriciousness or even whoremongery.

Gold Cloaks love or respect doesn't amount to much. They are simply said scum,  ordinary armed thugs who are adoring person who bought them by giving them power in capital and free reign in the slums of King's Landing.

It is truly hypocritical to blame  Rhaenyra as reason for "most dangerous man in Westeros" who orders - blood & cheese to get unnerved. Daemon is main reason of Rhaenyra's corruption- from her early age up until her downfall - being the one of main reasons why Greens moved against her in fear from her husband, but also promoting people like Mysaria, Luthor Largent or two betrayers in Rhaenyra's service.

To me it seems you are projecting lot of imaginary virtues to a character who doesn't have them and whose most acts are self-serving, impulsive or exploitative, with gifts given to him by fate - skill, charisma, high birth, dragon, valyrian steel - he could become a great man yet he destroyed it by his own idiotic actions.

Only thing I agree with that many people are blind of, lauding character as badass or awesome that he was a failure - one of guiding forces of downfall of Targaryen dynasty.

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3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

It is truly hypocritical to blame  Rhaenyra as reason for "most dangerous man in Westeros" who orders - blood & cheese to get unnerved. Daemon is main reason of Rhaenyra's corruption- from her early age up until her downfall - being the one of main reasons why Greens moved against her in fear from her husband, but also promoting people like Mysaria, Luthor Largent or two betrayers in Rhaenyra's service.

I didn't mention Blood and Cheese though. I'm referring that at the point of his death the paths of him and his wife had effectively diverged. Not due to blood and cheese but because Rhaenyra starts seeing enemies everywhere and condems to death someone Daemon cares about. 

3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

There is depth to character of Jaime, huge part are introspection, judgement and development- for which we can thank his Pov chapters, which we don't have for characters of Fire & Blood, therefore  Daemon seems like a sketch of character - with hints of Red Viper, and poor man's Elric of Melnibone like Darkstar - "the most dangerous man in Dorne".

There are no POV characters to be sure and we're seeing things from a much bigger distance than with the main novels. But there's still depth to be found there. 

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On 9/6/2021 at 2:13 PM, Lord Varys said:

But I'd not say all Greens are bad guys or unsympathetic - Larys Strong is quite an interesting character, Ser Perkin the Flea is fun, Grand Maester Orwyle is sympathetic, and Ser Tyland Lannister is even a tragic hero of sorts.

Larys is indeed interesting and Perkin is indeed fun but both are clearly ''bad guys''. Opportunists who seem to care only for their own advancement and are willing to stab everyone in the back for personal gain.

 

On 9/6/2021 at 2:13 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't think any of the Targaryens during the Dance were 'insane'. Just cruel and stupid. Rhaenyra's sanity never cracks, she just makes some bad choices when appointing/trusting people and she is too weak when she should have been strong (during the riots she should have mounted Syrax to defend the Dragonpit). But she never descends into insanity. And neither do Aegon II or Aemond - although Daemon certainly seems to have a mental breakdown when he throws away his life.

I actually think her mind really does start to unravel. She does not come off as a rational actor during the fall of kingslanding. When sending her Maester away she even says she's fully aware he's completely loyal but that she just cannot bring herself to get over the fact that he stood up for Nettles. The arrest of Corlys also seems more like broken mind blindly latching out than anything that's remotely rational. 

 

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15 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Larys is indeed interesting and Perkin is indeed fun but both are clearly ''bad guys''. Opportunists who seem to care only for their own advancement and are willing to stab everyone in the back for personal gain.

Perkin is clearly an opportunist. But Larys Strong's exact motivations are completely unclear to me. Was he ever a determined Green? Why did he latch himself on to their cause? Did he save Aegon II and the children out of the goodness of his heart or just to to have leverage if he was ever captured by Rhaenyra? How did Aemond's butchering the other Strongs affect him? If he was ever a determined Green did he want to play Corlys and not Aegon/Alicent in the end or was that a later decision based on the hopelessness of the situation after the Battle of the Kingsroad?

We just have no clue. We don't even understand what exactly his plan was after the murder of Aegon II and what role he planned to play in the government of Aegon III.

15 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

I actually think her mind really does start to unravel. She does not come off as a rational actor during the fall of kingslanding. When sending her Maester away she even says she's fully aware he's completely loyal but that she just cannot bring herself to get over the fact that he stood up for Nettles. The arrest of Corlys also seems more like broken mind blindly latching out than anything that's remotely rational.

The thing with Gerardys is kinda of weird and apparently a later addition. I don't find that a very convincing scenario, I'd have preferred it if he had to go to Dragonstone because Baela or some other person had gotten sick and he, as a famed healer, was sent there to treat her.

But overall this decision just shows weird priorities on her part, not so much her going bonkers. The arrest of Corlys is a rash decision triggered by Corlys' open defiance against her orders. It is too much, but if she hadn't done anything then she would have been viewed as weak, possibly triggering a similar uprising. If the Hand of the Queen openly defies her that sets a very bad example.

Then again - the Velaryons men were her core supporters, so a much better decision may have been to make the entire thing go away by pretending that nobody ever tried to arrest Addam Velaryon in the first place.

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I find it interesting that the one time Rhaenyra and Aegon II are both on-screen (so to speak) Rhaenyra refers to him as "brother" despite Gyldayn earlier telling us in Heirs of the Dragon that she always referred to Alicent's sons as her "half-brothers". Then again, "dear half-brother" does sound a great deal more forced so maybe that's why. (Also interesting that the use of the word "sons" precludes Helaena getting similar treatment from Rhaenyra.)

A few random thoughts:

1) I'd like to believe Aemma Arryn rode Dreamfyre and that Helaena claiming that particular dragon was a deliberate insult from Alicent

2) I think the entire succession issue from Jaehaerys I to Viserys I would make way more sense if Aemon and Jocelyn had had a son who died young shortly before his father (For bonus points, he could have been named Aenys because it makes little sense that Jaehaerys would honor his mother but not his father given his repeated insistence that he didn't need a second father with regards to Rogar, which comes off as pretty Freudian to me, not least because in RL incestuous dynasties didn't shy away from parent-child relationships, plus the fact that though Aenys was a weak king he remains an ancestor of Aemon, Baelon, etc.)

3) Alyssa's third daughter, Vaella, should have been named Daella so that Targaryen names come off as less random (Looking at you Valerion and Maelor.)

4) Aegon, son of Baelon, should have lived to take part in the Dance, either as a wild card who both sides try to recruit or as a schemer playing both sides against each other as Larys may well have in OTL

5) The sons of Saera should have played a part in the proceedings

6) Someone should have tried to crown Vaegon, with hilarious consequences (Almost everyone: WTF are you? Vaegon: Can I go back to my star charts please?)

7) What was the point of having a Master of Ships when the royal fleet was practically nonexistent seeing as even with the Silent Five the Sea Snake sailed right on into KL?

8) When did Viserys I reinstate the position of Master of Whisperers and why? (I once read someone theorize that Otto convinced Viserys to restore the office by arguing that he couldn't know who was calling his grandsons bastards if he didn't have a spy network)

9) Why do the Redwynes repeatedly do nothing despite having close ties to Oldtown and Starpike?

10) The lords of the Vale argue that the laws of succession cannot be put aside by the "whim of a dying woman" but apparently have no problem with the whim of Viserys I

11) I think one of the problems with the Dance for me personally is that the depiction just doesn't match the description
The Dance is nowhere near as destructive as it is said to be, both in terms of casualties and the fact hardly any houses or locations get wiped out permanently (Plus it has fewer battles than it should because for some bloody reason only the Riverlands can field multiple armies and most castles just exist to fill out the map)
The Dance is said to have deeply divided Westeros, pitting brothers against brothers, fathers against sons, and neighbors against neighbors but you hardly see that (The overwhelming majority in each region except the Reach support one side)
It is said that many hope "the ills and hatreds" of Aegon II's reign will be burned away with his body but based off the regency there doesn't really seem to be much animosity between the former Blacks and Greens unlike the aftermath of the First Blackfyre, where it is explicitly said "red or black was a dangerous question even now"
A big deal is made of the "Strong" boys paternity yet it never comes up during the Dance as a reason for or against Rhaenyra (Then again, we hardly get any info on why half the houses that support the Greens do so)
Likewise, we're told that no man was as loved and reviled in his day as Daemon but never actually shown people supporting Rhaenyra because of him or people opposing Rhaenyra for that same reason
We're told the Greens have an overwhelming advantage due to, among other things, having the might of the three biggest cities behind them but the Greens consistently throughout the Dance have fewer ships, fewer dragons, fewer supporters, less page time, and less numbers on the whole
The way the Dance is written comes off to me as being unintentionally pro-race/blood purity (Rhaenyra's greater amount of Targaryen blood is brought up as a point in her favor by Beesbury, the entire Green line is wiped out root and stem so that none of the later Targaryens (including present-day Dany and Vis) are descended from them, and Aegon/Aemond/Daeron are all to varying degrees unpleasant while Jaehaera is clearly autistic and Jaehaerys malformed (In fact, poor Jaehaerys is the ONLY Targ we know as of right now who is physically deformed in that way) (Oh, and all the Green Targs die horribly)
 

Edited by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back
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