Worst plan ever made in the saga ?

[KingAerys_II]

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes I have.

Most of them don't actually.

Do you have any quotes to back this up or are you just saying it?

This isn't about Aegon though, it is about your claim that the Dornish 'deserved it' just because of what a few of them did. You are saying that infants and babies in those villages deserved it.

Rhaenys spared women and children during her first visit in Dorne and she attacked Planky Town where only one hundred of people died during the attack and most of them died drowning by taking refuge near the river. She died probably after two years of torture, did she deserve this end? After Meraxes fall Aegon and Visenya changed strategy and decided to burn every day the dornish stronghold, it was a change of strategy, Visenya started to have more influence on Aegon. The sister and the prisoners suffered a worse fate than burning and dying quickly, no one deserves to be tortured but Dorne did games with the prisoners, people knew this because Maesters wrote these accounts so these are known things

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Dorne did games with the prisoners, people knew this because Maesters wrote these accounts so these are known things

Yes, written after they happened. Where is the proof that every single smallfolk in Dorne knew about the torture before it would happen?

Edited June 26, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[KingAerys_II]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, written after they happened. Where is the proof that every single smallfolk in Dorne knew about the torture before it would happen?

If the Maesters in Old Town know, so did the people in Dorne, Lord Wyl and Blackmont are not shy, these people made bets and the winner was the one who was able to mutilate the bodies of the knights in the most horrific way

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

If the Maesters in Old Town know, so did the people in Dorne, Lord Wyl and Blackmont are not shy, these people made bets and the winner was the one who was able to mutilate the bodies of the knights in the most horrific way

The Masters knowing about it after it happened is no indication that all the smallfolk in Dorne knew about it before it was going to happen. Where is the evidence that all the smallfolk in Dorne knew exactly when, where and how their nobles were going to torture foreign nobles and that they agreed/were happy about it?

[KingAerys_II]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Masters knowing about it after it happened is no indication that all the smallfolk in Dorne knew about it before it was going to happen. Where is the evidence that all the smallfolk in Dorne knew exactly when, where and how their nobles were going to torture foreign nobles and that they agreed/were happy about it?

Of course not all the smallfolk, but the lords that did these atrocities suffered no consequences 

[KingAerys_II]

Yes they were happy about it, some of the smallfolk did it

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Of course not all the smallfolk, but the lords that did these atrocities suffered no consequences 

Then why do you think the Smallfolk who played no part deserved to be burned alive? I can understand wanting the nobles and others who carried out the acts to be punished, but I don't understand why you think the smallfolk Aegon burned deserved it. They played no part. At best, they might have heard about these things after they happened like everyone else, and been happy that they people who invaded their home were punished, but I don't think this means all the men and women and children should be burned alive. They had absolutely no input on what happened. It would be like thinking a load of Swedish peasants living in Sweden deserved to be burned to death because some Swedish soldiers committed atrocities during the Thirty Years War.

[KingAerys_II]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Then why do you think the Smallfolk who played no part deserved to be burned alive? I can understand wanting the nobles and others who carried out the acts to be punished, but I don't understand why you think the smallfolk Aegon burned deserved it. They played no part. At best, they might have heard about these things after they happened like everyone else, and been happy that they people who invaded their home were punished, but I don't think this means all the men and women and children should be burned alive. They had absolutely no input on what happened. It would be like thinking a load of Swedish peasants living in Sweden deserved to be burned to death because some Swedish soldiers committed atrocities during the Thirty Years War.

It is a cultural thing of the land they belong, people around Dreadfort learn to flay people alive, same things some dornishmen learn from their lords.if they were pleased by the mutilation the knights suffered, they didn't deserve mercy 

Edited June 26, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

It is a cultural thing of the land they belong, people around Dreadfort learn to flay people alive, same things some dornishmen learn from their lords.

Most people around the Dreadfort don't know how to flay people alive though. There is not even much evidence that Roose himself knows. Ramsay is the one who does all the flaying and he does not represent the population at large. And there is no evidence that everyone in Dorne including children know how to do the slow slicing.

14 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

f they were pleased by the mutilation the knights suffered, they didn't deserve mercy 

So they all deserve to be killed painfully just because they were happy that the people who invaded their country suffered? We don't even have any evidence either way whether they were pleased or not, but saying the whole culture deserved to be wiped out because of this seems extreme to me. Especially since they weren't involved.

[KingAerys_II]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Most people around the Dreadfort don't know how to flay people alive though. There is not even much evidence that Roose himself knows. Ramsay is the one who does all the flaying and he does not represent the population at large. And there is no evidence that everyone in Dorne including children know how to do the slow slicing.

So they all deserve to be killed painfully just because they were happy that the people who invaded their country suffered? We don't even have any evidence either way whether they were pleased or not, but saying the whole culture deserved to be wiped out because of this seems extreme to me. Especially since they weren't involved.

The captured knights died painfully, the entire culture deserved to be wiped out and suffer the same fate Boltons will suffer in the next books. There is the biased judgment on the Targaryens because they were the invaders, the atrocities made by the dornish justified the war of Conquest and made it a war of civilization, people that enjoy the slow slicing of knights and the queen deserve the Conquest, the use of dragons was not as despicable as torturing people for years, killing, raping and enslaving little girls, the war crimes made by Dorne made the dragon wroth acceptable 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, KingAerys_II said:

The captured knights died painfully, the entire culture deserved to be wiped out and suffer the same fate Boltons will suffer in the next books.

But the entire culture was not complicit in the crime. Vast majority of Dornish weren't involved. I have been saying this from the start. Why is it okay to slaughter them when they weren't involved.

Just now, KingAerys_II said:

There is the biased judgment on the Targaryens because they were the invaders

Judging them for being invaders is not biased, the Targaryens did not need to invade Dorne but did anyway. 

1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

the use of dragons was not as despicable as torturing people for years, killing, raping and enslaving little girls, the war crimes made by Dorne made the dragon wroth acceptable 

But the people targeted weren't involved at all in those things.

[KingAerys_II]

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But the entire culture was not complicit in the crime. Vast majority of Dornish weren't involved. I have been saying this from the start. Why is it okay to slaughter them when they weren't involved.

Judging them for being invaders is not biased, the Targaryens did not need to invade Dorne but did anyway. 

But the people targeted weren't involved at all in those things.

They deserved the sufferings, otherwise they would have kept in doing atrocities in the Reach and Stormlands, they deserved more as the lords of the kingdoms wanted, do you know why? 

Edited June 26, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

They deserved the sufferings, otherwise they would have kept in doing atrocities

Random villagers who were not fighting, who played no part in the fighting as you know since Aegon would not be targeting empty villages, would have kept on committing atrocities? You can make the argument that it was 'needed to end the war' (though I don't think that's a very good argument especially since Aegon started the war), but saying they 'deserved it' is like saying all the civilians including women children in Nagasaki and Hiroshima who weren't part of any of the atrocities deserved it. Or that the people killed during William the Conqueror's Harrowing of the North deserve it. Or that the civilians during the 30 years war deserve it. No one deserves something like that.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[KingAerys_II]

34 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Random villagers who were not fighting, who played no part in the fighting as you know since Aegon would not be targeting empty villages, would have kept on committing atrocities? You can make the argument that it was 'needed to end the war' (though I don't think that's a very good argument especially since Aegon started the war), but saying they 'deserved it' is like saying all the civilians including women children in Nagasaki and Hiroshima who weren't part of any of the atrocities deserved it. Or that the people killed during William the Conqueror's Harrowing of the North deserve it. Or that the civilians during the 30 years war deserve it. No one deserves something like that.

No one deserves it, but people of the Reach and Stormlands suffered much more at the hands of Lord Wyl, Maesters talk about "unspeakable atrocities" made in Oak and Fawtown, we can't exclude they involved women and children, that's why lords of these kingdoms want the Dornish population to suffer, it is not me who agrees on the dragon wroth, the vassals of Aegon wanted it, they wanted revenge and retaliation, Aegon wanted peace after all the sufferings, and the Maester remembered him about the feelings of the Stormlands and Reach lords

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

it is not me who agrees on the dragon wroth

But you said multiple times in your previous posts that the Dornish deserved it...

I understand that the Lords themselves think the Dornish deserved it.

8 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Aegon wanted peace

If Aegon wanted peace, why did he invade in the first place? Also, Aegon was not doing it for peace, nor in response to their atrocities, he was doing it because he was angry they killed his sister.

[KingAerys_II]

I trust the lords that suffered because of Dorne, that is why I said they deserved it, if Orys and the others wanted revenge, it means Aegon didn't allow them to torture prisoners as the Dornish did. It is clear Aegon conquered Westeros because of a dream, probably about the long night, the attempts to justify the torture of the queen and the knights have become a nuisance, it is likely the queen convinced Aegon to sign the peace on Dragonstone, where he gave her the gift of mercy. The justification of the resistance with any means by the dornish are pathetic and it hides a bias from the fans of other houses, especially by the psychos that call Robert Bobby B and wants to justify him about the dragon spawns things, condemned by Lord Stark too. Aegon was good, Meria was bad and encouraged her lord to make those things

[KingAerys_II]

The strategy to burn villages and involving the smallfolk is something Targaryens learned by Joffrey Dayne that attempted to destroy Old Town and by Lord Fowler that burned Night's ong and took the Caron as hostages. The things did by the widow lover are things included in the category Ramsay things

[Craving Peaches]

28 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

It is clear Aegon conquered Westeros because of a dream, probably about the long night

It is not clear in the books.

28 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

the attempts to justify the torture of the queen and the knights have become a nuisance

No one is trying to justify the torture of the Queen and the Knights...

28 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The justification of the resistance with any means by the dornish are pathetic

I don't understand what you are saying here. No one is arguing that the Dornish were justified in torturing prisoners. I am arguing that Aegon killing women and children and men who had nothing to do with that was not right. I also think the Dornish had a right to fight back and were not obliged to just bow down to Aegon. But no one is saying that it was okay for the Dornish to torture prisoners.

The Dornish are allowed to resist Aegon's attempts to conquer their country, just as William Wallace was allowed to resist the English. Why should they have to submit to him?

28 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Aegon was good

Debatable.

24 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The strategy to burn villages and involving the smallfolk is something Targaryens learned

I am pretty sure the Targaryens knew all about burning villages before they came to Westeros and did not just learn it from the Dornish. The Valyrians burned loads of cities.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[KingAerys_II]

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It is not clear in the books.

No one is trying to justify the torture of the Queen and the Knights...

I don't understand what you are saying here. No one is arguing that the Dornish were justified in torturing prisoners. I am arguing that Aegon killing women and children and men who had nothing to do with that was not right. I also think the Dornish had a right to fight back and were not obliged to just bow down to Aegon. But no one is saying that it was okay for the Dornish to torture prisoners.

The Dornish are allowed to resist Aegon's attempts to conquer their country, just as William Wallace was allowed to resist the English. Why should they have to submit to him?

Debatable.

I am pretty sure the Targaryens knew all about burning villages before they came to Westeros and did not just learn it from the Dornish. The Valyrians burned loads of cities.

Meria Martell was the good one, dornishmen were right to use the slow slicing against the prisoners, Lord Wyl did nothing wrong it was a simple retaliation what he did in the wedding, the poisoning of entire households, the murders, the war crimes and other inhuman things are totally justified. Of course Aegon was not good, he only accepted peace to stop the bloodshed despite the torture on his sister and the attempts of assassinations to him, Maegor and Visenya, before Targaryens Westeros was a peaceful continent, an heaven

 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, KingAerys_II said:

Meria Martell was the good one, dornishmen were right to use the slow slicing against the prisoners, Lord Wyl did nothing wrong it was a simple retaliation what he did in the wedding, the poisoning of entire households, the murders, the war crimes and other inhuman things are totally justified.

I'm assuming this is sarcasm but no one is actually arguing that. So what you are saying doesn't make a lot of sense.

1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

Of course Aegon was not good, he only accepted peace to stop the bloodshed despite the torture on his sister and the attempts of assassinations to him

If Aegon was really that concerned with peace, if he was more concerned with peace than his own power, he would not have invaded Dorne in the first place. That he accepted peace eventually was a good thing, but it doesn't make him a good person, especially since he chose to start a war, kill tens of thousands of innocents, and only gave up when it was clear he wasn't making any progress.

3 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Targaryens Westeros was a peaceful continent, an heaven

Again, no one is arguing this. All people are arguing is that it was morally wrong for Aegon to burn Dornish civilians alive.