Worst plan ever made in the saga ?

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

The lion humbled them, they are strong with the weak and weak with the strong, evil people need a rough treatment, it is known dornishmen are not good oeople

What. First off, the Dornish are not an 'evil people', the vast majority of Dornish people were not involved in and did not condone those actions. Secondly, saying X nationality is Y is just stupid. Nothing is as uniform and monocultural as that. And if 'evil people' need 'rough treatment', the Targaryens, who are Valyrians, the most evil group of people in the series, deserve it way more than the Dornish.

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

There is a big difference between burning and the slow slicing 

Both are incredibly painful. But the Targaryens burned exponentially more people than the Dornish slow sliced.

[sifth]

The great ranging beyond The Wall.

[Craving Peaches]

30 minutes ago, sifth said:

The great ranging beyond The Wall

Like if you want to find out what's going on, just sent some scouts, or a larger ranging party. Don't send the bulk of the Watch, especially when you know they have so few men left, and you don't know exactly what you are getting into.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Like if you want to find out what's going on, just sent some scouts, or a larger ranging party. Don't send the bulk of the Watch, especially when you know they have so few men left, and you don't know exactly what you are getting into.

Its actualy a good idea known as a reconisance in force.

Villages are going empty, theres talk of a king beyond the wall but  nothing of what hes at  , his head ranger and other scouts have gone missing and the attack by the wight all mean the old bear.is right in seeking info.

Now he can keep sending out scouts to go lost and bleed rangers slowly , increase the size of the bands of rangers and ppssobly keep losing them until he hits the right size or do what he did.

The plan actualy works , he confirms  mance has gathered all the wildlings in the frotfangs looking for something before they march south hence the empty villages. He fortifies the fist of the 1st men (mance later on hearing this compliments thw plan..says if he got lucky theyd only have killed 5 wildlings for every crow hinting the actual ratio could be much much worse) and he sends 3 ranging parties from the fortified position into the frostfangs to find out mances numbers.

Its jist the supernatural element where it all goes wrong

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Like if you want to find out what's going on, just sent some scouts, or a larger ranging party. Don't send the bulk of the Watch, especially when you know they have so few men left, and you don't know exactly what you are getting into.

and for crying out loud, don't have the Lord Commander lead the party.

[sifth]

8 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Its jist the supernatural element where it all goes wrong

I mean Mormont knew full well about the supernatural element when he went on the ranging. Two wights attacked Castle Black and one tried to kill him. The fact that he chooses to face it, without a plan, is just stupid. Quarn Half Hand and Jon are the only ones to really produce any results, from the ranging and nearly everyone else is killed or betrays the watch.

[KingAerys_II]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

What. First off, the Dornish are not an 'evil people', the vast majority of Dornish people were not involved in and did not condone those actions. Secondly, saying X nationality is Y is just stupid. Nothing is as uniform and monocultural as that. And if 'evil people' need 'rough treatment', the Targaryens, who are Valyrians, the most evil group of people in the series, deserve it way more than the Dornish.

Both are incredibly painful. But the Targaryens burned exponentially more people than the Dornish slow sliced.

That's not true at all, slow slicing is a slow process, burning lasts a bunch of seconds, slow slicing can last for three days and the tortured person should have swallowed drugs not to die for shock

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, sifth said:

I mean Mormont knew full well about the supernatural element when he went on the ranging. Two wights attacked Castle Black and one tried to kill him. The fact that he chooses to face it, without a plan, is just stupid. Quarn Half Hand and Jon are the only ones to really produce any results, from the ranging and nearly everyone else is killed or betrays the watch.

He has 0 info, hes operating blind , no info = no plan and the high lords apparently couldnt give a shit...worse all the northern lords are going south for a war.

The ranging in force allows him to get awnsers in hours or days rather than weeks which based on the clearing out of nearby villages he  possibly doesnt have. They establish a fortified base and from there  3 small scouting parties includinf the quhorn + jon almost get away with the info they need (hard to plan for warging eagle drone!!!) 

Had the wights not sudeenly appeared en masse outta nowhere to attack the old bear could have sent more scouts out to conform mances numbers or find out if hes spread out enough for a surgical  cavalry strike to take out their leadership and scatter them.

That all said the ranging had solid outcome...confirming the army of the dead and mances vast host to the one lord out there that was listening on dragonstone! 

[astarkchoice]

4 hours ago, sifth said:

and for crying out loud, don't have the Lord Commander lead the party.

Having him lead it is the entire point though ..he needs info in days or hours not back at the wall  waiting weeks....shit they learn more from the inital tour of the nearby villages and casters keep than they previously heard in months!

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

burning lasts a bunch of seconds

Not always. It depends. You could be incinerated instantly or knocked out/die due to smoke inhalation. Or you could be badly burned but not killed instantly and die very slowly and painfully. Burning is incredibly painful unless you faint due to smoke inhalation first. But it does not just last a bunch of seconds unless you are instantly incinerated.

[KingAerys_II]

38 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not always. It depends. You could be incinerated instantly or knocked out/die due to smoke inhalation. Or you could be badly burned but not killed instantly and die very slowly and painfully. Burning is incredibly painful unless you faint due to smoke inhalation first. But it does not just last a bunch of seconds unless you are instantly incinerated.

There is something worse than dying burning, one of the purposes of torture is the annihilation of a person's individuality, insanity due to torture as happened to Theon, the Blue Bard and Harmund Hoare is a fate worse than death. After 7 years of torture Harmund Hoare had the gift of mercy, because death was considered merciful for him, the dornishmen used to mutilate the captive knights till they were completely broken, and it is probably the peace was made for the gift of mercy to Aegon's wife after 2 years of torture, and in these 2 years the widow lover made atrocities in the lands of House Oakheart and House Cafferen, Dorne is the only kingdom that deserved a worse fate than the Dragon Wroth 

[sifth]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Having him lead it is the entire point though ..he needs info in days or hours not back at the wall  waiting weeks....shit they learn more from the inital tour of the nearby villages and casters keep than they previously heard in months!

While leaving Castle Black and the Watch as a whole, without a leader. Also he left an idiot like Bowen Marsh as commander of Castle Black, one of the dumbest commanders in the series, who "shockingly" led the garrison of Castle Black into a obvious trap.

[sifth]

4 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

That all said the ranging had solid outcome...confirming the army of the dead and mances vast host to the one lord out there that was listening on dragonstone! 

And all it did was cost the Watch 1/3 of its men, it's leader and many of it's most talented officers. Truly a massive victory, by all accounts.

[astarkchoice]

48 minutes ago, sifth said:

While leaving Castle Black and the Watch as a whole, without a leader. Also he left an idiot like Bowen Marsh as commander of Castle Black, one of the dumbest commanders in the series, who "shockingly" led the garrison of Castle Black into a obvious trap.

He left bowen in charge as hes the best of whats left really

For all his faults  he didnt lead them to a trap , he tracked a force trying to cross the bridge and beat them in a bloody battle leaving himself injured! Had he stayed the inital smaller battle at castle black would have been easier yes but then 300 or so wildlings would have easily attacked castle black from the south side and itd have been all.she wrote.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

There is something worse than dying burning, one of the purposes of torture is the annihilation of a person's individuality,

Burning someone alive is annihilating their individuality.

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Dorne is the only kingdom that deserved a worse fate than the Dragon Wroth 

You have still not explained how the Dornish peasants and civilians, the people who were actually targeted by the Targaryens, deserve that for something that the Dornish nobility (and a minority of them) did.

[astarkchoice]

17 minutes ago, sifth said:

And all it did was cost the Watch 1/3 of its men, it's leader and many of it's most talented officers. Truly a massive victory, by all accounts.

And if theyd waited theyd all be dead, no single clue of wildling forces slipping over the walls and taking them from behind. No message confirming mance or the dead rising to stannis either. 

Hindsightis 20/20 and we as readers are in a much easier spot. Sitting waiting  weeks or months for ranger parties that seem to never return would be silly  ,a reconisancs in force makes sense under the dark circumstances the watch was in

[Craving Peaches]

9 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Its actualy a good idea known as a reconisance in force.

Not really. A recon force should not consist of half of your total army. A recon force should not be lead by the person in charge of the whole army. The point of a recon force is to get insight into what's going on before you send in everyone else. Mormont messed up. He even calls it a 'Great Ranging', it's not supposed to be a recon force.

[KingAerys_II]

35 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Burning someone alive is annihilating their individuality.

You have still not explained how the Dornish peasants and civilians, the people who were actually targeted by the Targaryens, deserve that for something that the Dornish nobility (and a minority of them) did.

Burning someone alive means killing him, torture means keeping someone alive to keep him in the torment, you don't understand or you don't want to understand. 

There is the concept of gift of mercy in Asoiaf, killing a person by burning him is not as despicable as keeping them alive, the villages around Old Town, Fawnton, Oak suffered atrocities, but unlike dornishmen the Targaryen forces did not torture the captive knights 

[astarkchoice]

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not really. A recon force should not consist of half of your total army. A recon force should not be lead by the person in charge of the whole army. The point of a recon force is to get insight into what's going on before you send in everyone else. Mormont messed up.

Thats a small recon force your thinking of which is what the missing ranging parties would be. This is much larger for that very reason and it has the commander as he cannot be waiting weeks for feedback to.make crucial decisions anymore, things are comming to a head.. ...while dangerous even in modern combat commanders are encourgaed to get their asses up front and see whats happening from time to time

 

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Burning someone alive means killing him, torture means keeping someone alive to keep him in the torment, you don't understand or you don't want to understand. 

I understand that fine, I don't understand your argument that this means the Dornish civilians and peasants who had nothing to do with what a minority of the Dornish nobles were doing deserve to be burned alive. I don't understand your argument that because Dornish nobles torture a few people who invaded their lands, this makes them worse than the Targaryens who burned tens of thousands of people alive for the 'crime' of not submitting to their rule. If you want to talk about torture, the Targaryens are probably still worse than the Dornish, given what the Valyrian Freehold which they were a part of was up to, which included carrying out blood magic experiments on slaves, forcing slaves to mate with animals, genocide, and forcing slaves to work in conditions so bad they begged for death.