Craving Peaches Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 17 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Well, according to some accounts he used to nail newborns in the chest of their impaled mothers, accounts of a Christian Saint, these people never lived during his rule No doubt some things were made up. Happens with many historical figures. 18 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: I don't think he was national hero, Skadenberg was a national hero, Vlad was a sadistic ruler, who enjoyed the torture, these people on YouTube are ignorant or have serious problems I think it should be possible to acknowledge the role Vlad played in defending Wallachia from the Ottomans whilst also acknowledging that he was a very cruel man. He also killed Saxons living in Wallachia for no apparent reason (or so I've read). Ultimately whether someone is a 'national hero' is subjective. Many 'national heroes' have also done a lot of cruel things, including towards their own people. For example, Robert the Bruce, a Scottish 'national hero', burned a load of Scottish villages to weaken his rival, whom he then killed in a church (and got excommunicated for it before being recommunicated). Aldarion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 Is someone seriously arguing that Aegon was right to burn down Dornish villages in his desire to take vengeance for his dead sister? BlackLightning 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said: Is someone seriously arguing that Aegon was right to burn down Dornish villages in his desire to take vengeance for his dead sister? I'm not sure. I thought the original argument was that Aegon was right because all Dornish including those random villagers were part of Wyl's atrocities (I really don't think so, it would be impossible), and that torturing is an integral Dornish cultural practice or something. Then it seemed to change to 'Aegon was just killing them to end the war and bring peace', and then 'Aegon was avenging his sister and the knights', now I don't know what's going on... Edited June 28, 2023 by Craving Peaches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 28 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said: Is someone seriously arguing that Aegon was right to burn down Dornish villages in his desire to take vengeance for his dead sister? If you have problems of comprehension, it is not my fault. For me Aegon had right to use his weapons against Dorne including dragons. Casualties happened in every in war, especially during ww2. Dorne violated sacred laws by practicing slavery, raping and mutilating prisoners of war. The burning of strongholds happened after the Fowlers burned Nightsong and took lords as prisoners and Joffrey Dayne burned and sacked villages after attempting to destroy Old Town, an Hightower died during the process, then the Ullers made an entire Tyrell army disappear. After this there is the dragon wroth, the wedding of Alys Oakheart and the atrocities made by the Wyl of Wyl. The burnings were retaliation to the depravity of Dorne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 Toppling down a government and establishing a puppet government to rule in your absence but not even supplying them with an armed force to keep the order, let alone defend from external threats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: I think it should be possible to acknowledge the role Vlad played in defending Wallachia from the Ottomans whilst also acknowledging that he was a very cruel man. He also killed Saxons living in Wallachia for no apparent reason (or so I've read). Ultimately whether someone is a 'national hero' is subjective. Many 'national heroes' have also done a lot of cruel things, including towards their own people. For example, Robert the Bruce, a Scottish 'national hero', burned a load of Scottish villages to weaken his rival, whom he then killed in a church (and got excommunicated for it before being recommunicated). It is funny since he was instated by Ottomans in the first place. Funnier still to think him specifically as an enemy of the Turks considering he killed a whole lot of Wallachian nobility before even going against the Ottomans and also fought against the Hungarians and his own family, it gets especially hillarious knowing that the founder of the dynasty, Basarab was of Turkic or Mongolian ancestry himself. There is no nationalism in the modern sense in the medieval world so I guess it is only normal that a guy of Turkic origin becomes a national hero against the Turks for killing some despite fact that he has killed so many of the people of the said nation as well. House of Basarab - Wikipedia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 I am not sure why he roasted them, if it was a retaliation to avenge his wife, payback for the crimes, it was right anyway BlackLightning and csuszka1948 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 3 hours ago, KingAerys_II said: I am not sure why he roasted them, if it was a retaliation to avenge his wife, payback for the crimes, it was right anyway So is it right to burn innocent villagers who didn't participate in it? Was Tywin right to send his mad dogs in the Riverlands as reitaliate for Tyrion's kidnapping? Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 6 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said: So is it right to burn innocent villagers who didn't participate in it? Was Tywin right to send his mad dogs in the Riverlands as reitaliate for Tyrion's kidnapping? The mad dogs of Meria gelded a boy in front his wife, then they raped her and her handmaids and sold them to a Myrish slaver. The dornish used the knights as toys in their mutilation games. Aegon didn't burn them enough, he should have burned Sunspear and the shadow city too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 9 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said: So is it right to burn innocent villagers who didn't participate in it? Spoiler I've been saying that for ages but the point does not appear to have gotten across... Ser Arthurs Dawn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: Reveal hidden contents I've been saying that for ages but the point does not appear to have gotten across... I don't care about your point, the villagers supported the Martells that encouraged those crimes, so they deserved to burn with the rest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: I don't care about your point, the villagers supported the Martells that encouraged those crimes, so they deserved to burn with the rest But there is no proof the Villagers supported those crimes. There's no proof they knew they were going to occur in the first place. You are making stuff up to try and justify Aegon's actions. Edited June 28, 2023 by Craving Peaches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 I think it is enough, I have already written my arguments, Dornish deserved to burn as punishment for their atrocities and war crimes, for the Stormlands and Reach lords the dragon wroth was not enough and they waited the second dornish war to have revenge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: It is funny since he was instated by Ottomans in the first place. Funnier still to think him specifically as an enemy of the Turks considering he killed a whole lot of Wallachian nobility before even going against the Ottomans and also fought against the Hungarians and his own family, it gets especially hillarious knowing that the founder of the dynasty, Basarab was of Turkic or Mongolian ancestry himself. There is no nationalism in the modern sense in the medieval world so I guess it is only normal that a guy of Turkic origin becomes a national hero against the Turks for killing some despite fact that he has killed so many of the people of the said nation as well. House of Basarab - Wikipedia To be fair, those Wallachian nobles were massive assholes. Vlad could realistically expect to be backstabbed, so he decided to preemptively backstab them. Doesn't make the guy "not evil", but he wasn't just a crazy madman... well, most of the time anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 Just now, KingAerys_II said: Dornish deserved to burn as punishment for their atrocities and war crimes But your argument that 'they', as in all the Dornish, deserved it is nonsensical. You are saying that every man, woman, child and unborn foetus in Dorne is as equally guilty for the atrocities as Wyl , even though the vast majority took no part, did not know that it would happen, had no influence on it aside from perhaps a few being part of Wyl's army. You are essentially saying they deserve genocide for not magically knowing what was going to happen and preventing it, never mind how they were supposed to prevent it, by siding with their invaders or rebelling against the feudal system, both of which are frankly ridiculous expectations to have of mediaeval peasants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 I find these accusations childish and the result of a biased point of view to see things, I have already explained everything with valid arguments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: But your argument that 'they', as in all the Dornish, deserved it is nonsensical. You are saying that every man, woman, child and unborn foetus in Dorne is as equally guilty for the atrocities as Wyl , even though the vast majority took no part, did not know that it would happen, had no influence on it aside from perhaps a few being part of Wyl's army. You are essentially saying they deserve genocide for not magically knowing what was going to happen and preventing it, never mind how they were supposed to prevent it, by siding with their invaders or rebelling against the feudal system, both of which are frankly ridiculous expectations to have of mediaeval peasants. Look at his username and you understand. Those filthy Dornishmen deserved to burn, they betrayed us even in the Trident, I smell treachery on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 (edited) 56 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: the result of a biased point of view to see things You are the one who is biased, since you think every single Dornish person is an evil sadistic torturer who deserves to be burned alive, despite the fact there is no textual evidence to support this. You advocate genocide of the Dornish people. Edited June 28, 2023 by Craving Peaches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 I advocate for nothing, someone should pay for those crimes, since the lords kept hiding and doing atrocities, the retaliation on the population is good anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 It is a biased discussion, people are triggered because their beloved kingdom was responsible for the worst war crimes against women and prisoners of war, they are so enchanted to the story of Nymeria her ship, the law inheritance, all good things, very touching, then Meria Martell encouraged slavery and rape of young women. Aegon was very good during the war, the lords of Stormlands and Reach wanted him to keep the devastation, he was a good king and a peacemaker unlike the Martells, that is the truth, people are upset because a dragon rider used a dragon to spread a bit of sufferings to the population, whose lords made unforgiving atrocities Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.