csuszka1948 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 8/9/2022 at 2:46 PM, Maia said: If Stannis acting on Jon's advice could convince the mountain clans to fight Boltons for him, it should have been a snap for Jon himself to recruit them to help protect the Wall. Particularly since they'd be the first to feel the brunt of whatever comes through it. Frankly, them not running to support NW when Mance Rayder's invasion was imminent is a huge plothole. The mountain clans seem to be a retcon in ADWD, yes. On 8/9/2022 at 2:46 PM, Maia said: But it really doesn't seem that Jon understands that the wildlings are dangerous, given that he intended to let the Weeper through as well if he promised to behave. All without any plan of how to feed them in their tens of thousands too, until a miraculous, wholly unexpected and illogical open-end loan from IB. But even so, it is a long, long way from a promissory note to an actual food supply. Realistically, once provisions grow short at the latest, in a couple of months or so, a large fraction of wildlings should just move south and go on a pillage rampage, hostages here or there. Their allegiance to their leaders is tenuous, and it is the leaders who had to surrender their sons as surety, not the masses. Logically, Jon's actions should result in something similar to what happened when Goths were given refuge in the Roman Empire, only without all the malfeasance. Is it better if they become wights? I am not really sure about it. Besides, the whole lack of food thing is also contrived, because they should have piled up tons of food for a long winter. On 8/9/2022 at 2:46 PM, Maia said: He was also going to denude the Wall of both wildlings and NW when he decided to go after tBoB, since he was sending a lot of the remaining black brothers and a big chunk of remaining food to Hardhome at the same time. I don't know if GRRM intends to aknowledge this, but looking at it from practical point of view, Jon's plans were a complete cluster. Idealistically motivated, yes, but... Of course, Marsh and Co. weren't allowed to capitalize on any of the good arguments they had and were restricted to just spouting prejudice, so it wouldn't surprise me if the authorial intent is that Jon was right about everything. Wouldn't be the first time that he has been spared from making hard choices or from the consequences of his decisions. I think the Hardhome mistake was meant to be a mistake, and somewhat contrasted with Dany's decision to close down Meereen and not allow ill refugees to enter. Dany makes too many compromises and gives away too much of her values in ADWD, while Jon isn't willing enough to listen to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 9/6/2022 at 1:44 AM, Arthur Peres said: Victarion dumber than a sheep wants to stay fighting a losing war with no idea whatsoever to how to turn things around. Balon seemed to die in a winning position to, so he is respected On 9/6/2022 at 1:44 AM, Arthur Peres said: Asha comes next with the great idea of "lets ally with the people that we are attacking right now... we betrayed them, invaded them, stabed them in the back, the leadership that try to ally us is dead and the current leader that own it's position to the lions, we will convince him to change to our side (because we are soo trusty worthy allys as current events prove...), we will also still try to keep the lands that we took from them, and the tools for such a great deal? the nephews of this minor lord... of course they won't keep fighting us, it's not like lords kept fighting when the family of his vassals were hostages... Roose a cold blooded psycho that enjoys torture will certanly care for the life of boys he has no ties to"... I feel George wanted to portray Asha's plan as reasonable, but it really isn't. On 9/6/2022 at 1:44 AM, Arthur Peres said: Then Euron comes next with a even dumber plan... We cannot even defeat the northems... let's ignore this fact and attack everyone else too, and I will get dragons by marrying a girl that neither me or you guys ever saw, she is also very anti-slavery, but I'm sure she will be fine we our thralls... she has a great claim, dragons and do not really need us, but I will seduce her, marry her and use her... she is just on the other side of the world and is not clear that we can even get there in the first place, but hey... I'm your man for the job. I disagree here though. Euron and especially the Ironborn have no way to know that Dany is anti-slavery or that she plans to stay in Meereen, it would be pretty reasonable to think that she isn't against slavery (being raised in Essos and being Valyrian) and will soon head to Westeros. Euron has a dragon horn that he can (apparently) use to tame a dragon, couldn't Dany take him as a husband like Aegon has taken Visenya and Rhaenys as his wives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 9/7/2022 at 2:55 PM, EggBlue said: I'm still fairly certain that Rhaegar's plan was the worst....whatever it was. just look at the result! I don't think we should judge in based on the results. Rhaegar based some of his actions in his belief in prophecy/vision, just like Stannis. Stannis confronting Renly and trying to claim the IT with 5 thousand men seems insanity, but if LF has somehow gotten killed in his journey to Bitterbridge (+maybe Robb told Edmure his plan), it could have possibly succeeded, at least for a time. Stannis would have killed Renly, taken much of his army, taken SE and KL within a few months. He would have sent back Sansa and Robb might acknowledge him as King and smash what remains of Tywin, Lysa might join him blaming the Lannisters for LF's death, and the Tyrells bend the knee to him. Obviously that's a very lucky scenario, and Varys would probably introduce Aegon to the Tyrells before this could happen, but it's not impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said: Because she learns that her father was mad and that her dragon has killed an innocent child, she thinks she is no better than the hated Usurper's dogs and has to cope with this relevation. She becomes as averse to violence as Ned. As for Yunkai, it seems a retcon from ASOS or a remnant of the scrapped 5-year gap. Yunkai has lost most of its wealth and its slaves, and most of the Wise Masters probably didn't work a day during their lives. How the hell are they capable of restarting slaving? How to they hire mercenaries and do not end up getting sacked (when Dany and Astapor - the anti-slaver states) seem in a clearly superior position? How do they have the money to invite so many sellswords? Why do they lead the slaver coalition and not New Ghis, which provides significantly more soldiers? I don't think it makes much sense that Yunkai - which should have been hit even harder economically than Astapor or Meereen - is able to recover that quickly. We even hear that Tyrion's Yunkai slavemaster have kept certain slaves for years, which shouldn't be possible, he should have lost them in ASOS... Yes, it's understandable without knowing about the brewing slave rebellion in Volantis. Poisoning the wells (as Tyrion thought) and bringing out the dragons (as weapons and tools in a potential negotiation table) as Brown Ben proposed would have also helped though. Yes, I agree. I feel 'redistribution of wealth' is bit of a revolutionary relevation for this age though. I guess there were still slaves in the hinterland of Yunkai. But as you say, no one on the slaver side ought to defer to Yunkai, whose own mercenaries consider them a joke. And yes, it should take them much longer to recover. Being where she is, Dany doesn’t have the luxury of being nice to enemies. The death of Hazzea is sad, but she has hundreds of thousands of freedmen to look after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 The Yunkai'i have plenty of inoconsistencies, starting with having slaves to begin with after supposedly releasing them, along with some other stuff like the girl emperor having bred her slave soldiers despite being sixteen etc. It does have an easy fix, which is consistent with the story. The Yunkai'i did not release all of their slaves, not even most of them. They couldn't have or their society would have fallen apart and it's not like Dany checked. It should have been addressed though. I think that Dance was rushed through editing and publication to coincide with the first season of the show, which is why stuff like this slipped though. Maia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, The Sleeper said: The Yunkai'i have plenty of inoconsistencies, starting with having slaves to begin with after supposedly releasing them, along with some other stuff like the girl emperor having bred her slave soldiers despite being sixteen etc. It does have an easy fix, which is consistent with the story. The Yunkai'i did not release all of their slaves, not even most of them. They couldn't have or their society would have fallen apart and it's not like Dany checked. It should have been addressed though. I think that Dance was rushed through editing and publication to coincide with the first season of the show, which is why stuff like this slipped though. You are right, they sent a massive army out of Meeren walls, and the plague started to spread, lots of men mean lots of resources and ships that must move from New Ghis and Yunkai to Meeren would be prey of pirates, then Quentyn released the two dragons, Viserion is destroying the sick corpses launched to the city and Rhaegal is burning the fleet, then Victarion fleet came, the slavers are doomed and Windblown and Second Sons joined Daenerys. Part of Ghiscari army is made by slaves that could defect. Slavers are dumb and arrogant, it is impossible to take the city after the dragons release and the Greyjoys Edited June 25, 2023 by KingAerys_II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 11/12/2021 at 6:04 PM, Lord Lannister said: Brandon Stark marching into the Red Keep and yelling for Rhaegar to come out and die. That was awful. Brandon had a lot of time to calm down. He's a very emotional person like his nephew Jon Snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 The covert operation to rescue Arya from her marriage to Ramsay. This one thing will be the death of the Nights Watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 The plan of Arianne to crown Myrcella was stupid and useless Craving Peaches and Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Just now, KingAerys_II said: The plan of Arianne to crown Myrcella was stupid and useless Arianne herself has been stupid and useless so far. She is a liability for team Martell. Hopefully she does something useful for them next book, but I don't have particularly high hopes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 Posted June 25, 2023 Author Share Posted June 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: The plan of Arianne to crown Myrcella was stupid and useless Indeed but compared to her cousin Obara's plan, her scheme to crown Myrcella queen looks like a genius move. Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Team Martell is stupid and Lady Nym doesn't know about the fate of women given to Qyburn, she thinks Cersei is a complete idiote, She and Tyene are gonna die very bad. Wyman Manderly, Varys and Littlefinger make Arianne and her father seem miserable, Wyman made pies with his enemies and ate them, Varys is destroying House Lannister alone and Littlefinger caused the war of the Five Kings that brought destruction to House Tully, Stark and Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 The only accomplishment of this house was the death of a dragon with luck, the lucky shot of a bolt that pierced Meraxes eye and the torture of a woman who was probably crippled by the fall, hope Dorne doesn't survive in the next wars, when there was the need of justice for the death of two kids, they did nothing and Doran told Arianne not to promise military support until she is sure Aegon could win, that's why the meeting between Aegon and Arianne will be very bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: The only accomplishment of this house was the death of a dragon with luck, the lucky shot of a bolt that pierced Meraxes eye and the torture of a woman who was probably crippled by the fall, I don't particularly like House Martell, and the Dornish don't do themselves any favours by mutilating prisoners, killing people under a peace banner, raiding their neighbours and poisoning people, thereby proving negative stereotypes about their culture correct. However, the Targaryens had no right to invade Dorne or anywhere else, so good on Dorne for killing the invader who burned thousands of innocent Dornish civillians alive due to their apparent lust for power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I don't particularly like House Martell, and the Dornish don't do themselves any favours by mutilating prisoners, killing people under a peace banner, raiding their neighbours and poisoning people, thereby proving negative stereotypes about their culture correct. However, the Targaryens had no right to invade Dorne or anywhere else, so good on Dorne for killing the invader who burned thousands of innocent Dornish civillians alive due to their apparent lust for power. After all the war crimes they did as the Alys Oakheart wedding, the mutilation of the prisoners, they deserved to be annihilated as the Rhoynars, Nymeria was an invader too, but she is not despised as the Targaryens. Westeros would be a better place without lots of Dornish Houses Edited June 25, 2023 by KingAerys_II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: After all the war crimes they did as the Alys Oakheart wedding, the mutilation of the prisoners, they deserved to be burned as the Rhoynars Yeah but the villagers Aegon and co. burned weren't behind those, were they? 5 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Nymeria was an invader too, but she is not despised as the Targaryens. Because she married a native house and didn't kill as many innocents just for the sake of her own lust for power. Nymeria married Mors Martell and helped him conquer Dorne because she needed a home for her people. The Targaryens invaded Dorne and Westeros because they wanted to (there could be more to it but if so it hasn't been revealed yet). There is a huge difference. 8 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: they deserved to be burned as the Rhoynars What did the Rhoynar do to deserve being burned? 8 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Westeros would be a better place without lots of Dornish Houses Westeros would also be a better place without lots of the Targaryens and other noblemen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 39 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Yeah but the villagers Aegon and co. burned weren't behind those, were they? Because she married a native house and didn't kill as many innocents just for the sake of her own lust for power. Nymeria married Mors Martell and helped him conquer Dorne because she needed a home for her people. The Targaryens invaded Dorne and Westeros because they wanted to (there could be more to it but if so it hasn't been revealed yet). There is a huge difference. What did the Rhoynar do to deserve being burned? Westeros would also be a better place without lots of the Targaryens and other noblemen. The Targaryens invaded Westeros bacause of the Others not for lust of power, before the Targaryens there were Harren Hoare as a king who enslaved an entire kingdom to build Harrenhal, the First Men were invaders too, Brandon of the Bloody Blade slaughtered the children of the forest and the field was full of the children of the forest blood. Before the Targaryens, Tha rape of the three sisters happened, the Bolton kings used to flay the Starks. Every house did atrocities including Starks, should they be extinct? Dornishmen used the slow slicing to torment the captive knights, this method is as brutal as skinning, if there is a population that deserves the Dragon Wrath that is Dorne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Just now, KingAerys_II said: The Targaryens invaded Westeros bacause of the Others not for lust of power, This has not been confirmed in the books. We do not know why the Targaryens invaded in the books. We can only speculate. Just now, KingAerys_II said: Dornishmen used the slow slicing to torment the captive knights, this method is as brutal as skinning, if there is a population that deserves the Dragon Wrath that is Dorne What the Dornish soldiers did is irrelevant because the Dornish civilians the Targaryens were burning had nothing to do with that. Just now, KingAerys_II said: Every house did atrocities including Starks, should they be extinct? You were the one saying the Dornish deserved it. If the Dornish deserve it then so do the Targaryens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: This has not been confirmed in the books. We do not know why the Targaryens invaded in the books. We can only speculate. What the Dornish soldiers did is irrelevant because the Dornish civilians the Targaryens were burning had nothing to do with that. You were the one saying the Dornish deserved it. If the Dornish deserve it then so do the Targaryens. There is a big difference between burning and the slow slicing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: This has not been confirmed in the books. We do not know why the Targaryens invaded in the books. We can only speculate. What the Dornish soldiers did is irrelevant because the Dornish civilians the Targaryens were burning had nothing to do with that. You were the one saying the Dornish deserved it. If the Dornish deserve it then so do the Targaryens. The Dornish deserved, that 's right, the fact of the wedding and the tortures on the captive knights. The lion humbled them, they are strong with the weak and weak with the strong, evil people need a rough treatment, it is known dornishmen are not good oeople Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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