Will Jaime become a "True Knight", or the Smiling Knight?

[Apoplexy]

I truly don't understand all the Jaime hate. He is far from perfect, but I don't get trying claim to everything he did was just evil or malicious.

I don't see jaime killing lancel. As he is moving away from cersei and now that Tywin is dead, Jaime seems to want to make better decisions. He has no pressure to try to please Tywin and he has decided to stop trying to please cersei. I have a feeling he will do something heroic during the long night. I think we have the Qhorin halfhand as a character to set up the possibility that Jaime will become proficient with his left hand. That is how he could end up being remembered as the 'true knight'.

[Egged]

10 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I truly don't understand all the Jaime hate. He is far from perfect, but I don't get trying claim to everything he did was just evil or malicious.

I don't see jaime killing lancel. As he is moving away from cersei and now that Tywin is dead, Jaime seems to want to make better decisions. He has no pressure to try to please Tywin and he has decided to stop trying to please cersei. I have a feeling he will do something heroic during the long night. I think we have the Qhorin halfhand as a character to set up the possibility that Jaime will become proficient with his left hand. That is how he could end up being remembered as the 'true knight'.

What do you think he will do with the LS situation? If LS forces him to do his bidding, that would put him in direct opposition to those he just advised to "do like Ser Arthur Dayne" while fighting alongside "the Hound". Do you think he will fight LS instead?

[Apoplexy]

7 minutes ago, Egged said:

What do you think he will do with the LS situation? If LS forces him to do his bidding, that would put him in direct opposition to those he just advised to "do like Ser Arthur Dayne" while fighting alongside "the Hound". Do you think he will fight LS instead?

I think LS wants to kill Jaime, she is unlikely to want him to go kill other people. I think Jaime either convinces LS he had nothing to do with the RW or manages to escape. If he does convince her, he could eventually manage to give Riverrun back to Edmure to try to make amends.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I truly don't understand all the Jaime hate.

Nobody hates him.  We just see what we see.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

He is far from perfect, but I don't get trying claim to everything he did was just evil or malicious.

I have no idea what "just evil" even means.  Every crime has a motive.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't see jaime killing lancel.

Lancel saw it in his dream/vision.  And perhaps human Jaime would have and did hold back, despite that sinister twitch in his phantom hand.  But zombie Jaime will be different.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

As he is moving away from cersei and now that Tywin is dead, Jaime seems to want to make better decisions.

The influence of Brienne is the only vague evidence of this, IMHO.

[Aebram]

9 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

the lion does not explain himself to the wolf.  And if that is not narcissistic pride, what is?

With all due respect to the Martin, this is one plot point that I just don't find believable. Jaime killed the king he was sworn to protect, which is horrible. But he did it to save King's Landing from being burned, which is heroic. I can see how he might not have wanted to justify himself to Ned Stark, in that first encounter in the throne room. But in the days and weeks that followed, surely he would have explained about Aerys's plan to destroy the city: if not for himself, then to protect the honor of House Lannister.

[HoodedCrow]

I guess you could say that about anyone whose love is unrequited and accepts that. However, Jaime isn’t mooning around for a Romance, he is extricating himself from a bad one. He is able to self reflect and wish to change his ways. Jaime is handsome, but I don’t recall any incidents of him admiring himself. ( self loathing…yes) He also loved Tyrion, who was a child despised by his sister, father, and society at large. Narcissists would not associate with such imperfection. Cersei’s response is more typical.

[Mister Smikes]

8 hours ago, Aebram said:

With all due respect to the Martin, this is one plot point that I just don't find believable. Jaime killed the king he was sworn to protect, which is horrible. But he did it to save King's Landing from being burned, which is heroic. I can see how he might not have wanted to justify himself to Ned Stark, in that first encounter in the throne room. But in the days and weeks that followed, surely he would have explained about Aerys's plan to destroy the city: if not for himself, then to protect the honor of House Lannister.

If the Lion does not explain himself to the Wolf, then why would he explain himself to the Mice?   And there was no need to explain himself to the Stag as the Stag was perfectly pleased with the situation.  It is evident that you and Jaime have different ideas about "the honor of House Lannister."

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

I guess you could say that about anyone whose love is unrequited and accepts that. However, Jaime isn’t mooning around for a Romance, he is extricating himself from a bad one. 

But, by strange random coincidence, he begins at this time to start worrying about his reputation  -- about what the smallfolk and others think of him.  He had no use for them before.   So yeah, he kind of is mooning around for a "romance" of sorts.  

Which is not a bad thing in and of itself.  It depends on where he goes with it.  But certainly, a redemption is not guaranteed.

[chrisdaw]

End game is High Septon Lancel, fanatical and slightly crazy in a rather strong suicidal position, refusing a peace and alliance with the northern Jon and his heretical army while the Others bear down on the realm.

Once again for the greater good Jaime will commit an atrocity, kinslaying and deicide, when he murders Lancel.

That side of things isn't really about knighthood though, Jaime is going to be Hand and it's about the king eats while the Hand takes the shit. Someone had to kill Aerys, and that someone had to be Jaime, it is Jaime's job - the horrible dishonourable shit that really needs doing for everyone's sake and no-one else is willing to do. The perfect Hand for the horrible times that lay ahead. A saviour no-one likes or wants to acknowledge, but would all be fucked without. Destined to be greater than Tywin ever was.

As to knighthood it's like Criston Cole, it depends on who you listen to, from what angle you look at it, impossible to ever know unless you are in his head, which we will be, and the truth will be that he'll have been both, shockingly bad and shockingly good. The best of them and the worst of them I believe the text says somewhere.

[Apoplexy]

20 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Nobody hates him.  We just see what we see

I disagree. It's similar to Dany hate.

20 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I have no idea what "just evil" even means.  Every crime has a motive.

I meant Jaime isn't cruel for the sake of being cruel. If the motive for a crime is 'because I can', that put a different color on things. That is why we have degrees even for murder in the present judicial system.

20 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Lancel saw it in his dream/vision.  And perhaps human Jaime would have and did hold back, despite that sinister twitch in his phantom hand.  But zombie Jaime will be different.

I really think this is nothing. Lancel is not a greenseer. 

20 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

The influence of Brienne is the only vague evidence of this, IMHO

I disagree. Jaime has always tried to be honorable, but he just hasn't gotten there all the time. He is making better and better decisions after breaking with Cersei and without the pressure to please Tywin.

[Apoplexy]

10 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

If the Lion does not explain himself to the Wolf, then why would he explain himself to the Mice?   And there was no need to explain himself to the Stag as the Stag was perfectly pleased with the situation.  It is evident that you and Jaime have different ideas about "the honor of House Lannister."

Genuine question, what type of narcissist do you think Jaime is? Narcissists are not made equal. I personally disagree Jaime has shown any signs of narcissism, arrogance is not the same as narcissism.

[Egged]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

End game is High Septon Lancel, fanatical and slightly crazy in a rather strong suicidal position, refusing a peace and alliance with the northern Jon and his heretical army while the Others bear down on the realm.

Once again for the greater good Jaime will commit an atrocity, kinslaying and deicide, when he murders Lancel.

That side of things isn't really about knighthood though, Jaime is going to be Hand and it's about the king eats while the Hand takes the shit. Someone had to kill Aerys, and that someone had to be Jaime, it is Jaime's job - the horrible dishonourable shit that really needs doing for everyone's sake and no-one else is willing to do. The perfect Hand for the horrible times that lay ahead. A saviour no-one likes or wants to acknowledge, but would all be fucked without. Destined to be greater than Tywin ever was.

As to knighthood it's like Criston Cole, it depends on who you listen to, from what angle you look at it, impossible to ever know unless you are in his head, which we will be, and the truth will be that he'll have been both, shockingly bad and shockingly good. The best of them and the worst of them I believe the text says somewhere.

This will be a thing:

Quote

"I fear no shade, ser. It is written in The Seven-Pointed Star that spirits, wights, and revenants cannot harm a pious man, so long as he is armored in his faith."

If one is killed by Ser Robert Strong, or by wights, or by the Others, it means that in the eyes of the faith they were not pious. So long as one is armored in their faith, they could not be harmed.

So on one hand, this opens a clear path for Cersei to win her trial AND get the faith's backing, even if Robert was revealed to be Gregor as it would mean he had survived his first trial thanks to the Seven, and again in the second trial. He cannot be a wight or revenant, as those on the side of the ones he harms would have to recognize that the ones they are speaking for were not pious, in which case their deaths is ordained and just and Gregor is merely an instrument of the Seven, unless the faith rejects its own tenets.

Plus, hiding Gregor's identity is justifiable to protect him from the evil scheming Sand Snakes or Dorne in general, especially if Arianne ends up accused of having plotted with Aegon, regardless of Aegon and co. accepting her or not. It all writes itself. And Robert Strong has seven-colored feathers on his helmet and has taken a pious vow of silence. Let's see his opponents do as much.

And then imagine that, as the wights come from the north and kill people, maybe the Others as well, someone like Lancel would have to assume that this is actually retribution by the Seven. And if an army of red priests lands, who sacrifice people to the flame, led by a dragon-riding queen, then surely the Others have been sent to save the realms, Ice against Fire. After all, the Stranger is just as part of the Seven as the rest. Death is part of the Seven.

Septon Barth had supposedly heard the child Septon speak to birds uh? Was he a glamored child of the forest? The children of the forest aren't stupid; they invented a religion to have the First Men unknowingly reveal all of their hearts' desires to them. They may well have sought to influence the faith of the Seven as well, they know man's heart.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I meant Jaime isn't cruel for the sake of being cruel.

Few people ever are.  That's a very low bar.  

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

That is why we have degrees even for murder in the present judicial system.

Few, if any, of them have anything to do with wickedness for its own sake.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I really think this is nothing. Lancel is not a greenseer. 

Except that phantom hand keeps twitching, and he keeps chanting "Lancel and Kettleback and Moonboy for all I know".  Unless you think words are wind, this might plausibly be foreshadowing.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime has always tried to be honorable, but he just hasn't gotten there all the time.

Dunno if he has tried to be "honorable" but he has never tried to be good.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

He is making better and better decisions after breaking with Cersei and without the pressure to please Tywin.

That he now hates the only person he ever (in some sense) loved is not exactly moral growth.  It is good that he has chosen to stay away from Cersei rather than return to KL to strangle her.  But clues suggest that's where he's eventually going.  Cersei deserves to die to be sure, but it does not seem likely to me that Jaime will be motivated by justice. 

Cersei is not a greenseer either, but I think her vision of Jaime's impending return is a true one.  And Lancel is in KL as well (as are Kettleback and Moonboy), so the stage is set.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Genuine question, what type of narcissist do you think Jaime is? Narcissists are not made equal. I personally disagree Jaime has shown any signs of narcissism, arrogance is not the same as narcissism.

I am only referencing ancient myth, and have no interest in discussing the diagnostic criteria of mental illness as reflected in the DSM IV.  I think that Jaime is motivated by pride and self love, and considers the lives of lesser persons to be expendable to his whims.   Tyrion invokes the idea that Jaime's love for Cersei is a sort of self love -- analogous to admiring oneself in the mirror.  This is straight from the text, and recalls the myth of Narcissus.  

[Apoplexy]

Just now, Mister Smikes said:

Few people ever are.  That's a very low bar

Except cersei is, most of the time.

1 minute ago, Mister Smikes said:

Few, if any, of them have anything to do with wickedness for its own sake.

Really? Intent is any important determinant of sentencing, at least in developing countries.

6 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Except that phantom hand keeps twitching, and he keeps chanting "Lancel and Kettleback and Moonboy for all I know".  Unless you think words are wind, this might plausibly be foreshadowing.

 

6 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Dunno if he has tried to be "honorable" but he has never tried to be good.

We disagree.

7 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

That he now hates the only person he ever (in some sense) loved is not exactly moral growth.  It is good that he has chosen to stay away from Cersei rather than return to KL to strangle her.  But clues suggest that's where he's eventually going.  Cersei deserves to die to be sure, but it does not seem likely to me that Jaime will be motivated by justice.

I personally think walking away from a toxic relationship is significant growth for an individual.

 

9 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Cersei is not a greenseer either, but I think her vision of Jaime's impending return is a true one.  And Lancel is in KL as well (as are Kettleback and Moonboy), so the stage is set.

We disagree.

[Apoplexy]

2 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I am only referencing ancient myth, and have no interest in discussing the diagnostic criteria of mental illness as reflected in the DSM IV.  I think that Jaime is motivated by pride and self love, and considers the lives of lesser persons to be expendable to his whims.   Tyrion invokes the idea that Jaime's love for Cersei is a sort of self love -- analogous to admiring oneself in the mirror.  This is straight from the text, and recalls the myth of Narcissus.  

You are conflating narcissism with narcissistic personality disorder. 

Anyways, Tyrion is wrong. I personally don't see Jaime as a narcissistic person. He is arrogant and proud for sure, but thats not the same as narcissism. 

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Really? Intent is any important determinant of sentencing, at least in developing countries.

You just changed the subject.  We were not talking about intent as it exists in the penal law, but about something else entirely.

But since, you bring it up, Jaime was definitely guilty of the crime of attempted murder, including the element of intent to kill, when he pushed Bran out the window.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I personally think walking away from a toxic relationship is significant growth for an individual.

Depends.  Men have been known to walk away from a toxic relationship, grab a gun, return, murder wife, murder kids, and then finally murder self.  

This is a false dichotomy.  The fact that Cersei is evil, does not make Jaime good.  And he does not hate her for her wicked crimes.  He hates her because he found out she does not love him as well or as faithfully as he (falsely) imagines he deserves.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

You are conflating narcissism with narcissistic personality disorder. 

I was not conflating them at all.  I thought I made it clear I did not want to talk about "narcissistic personality disorder"

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Anyways, Tyrion is wrong. I personally don't see Jaime as a narcissistic person. He is arrogant and proud for sure, but thats not the same as narcissism. 

I have no interest in debating the definition of narcissism.   It is tiresome.  I told you what I meant.  If you are going to play word police with me, I will choose another word from now on, at least until you go away.

He is motivated, to a significant extent, by pride and self-love.   That may not be the whole truth, but it is a big part of it.

Nor am I saying that he has never shown an act of kindness, nor that it will be impossible for him to choose to be better.  I'm not ruling out redemption for him.  I don't think he will be redeemed, but that's just my guess as to where the story is headed.  I've seen few signs of redemption so far (except maybe a handful of moments with Brienne).

[chrisdaw]

2 hours ago, Egged said:

This will be a thing:

If one is killed by Ser Robert Strong, or by wights, or by the Others, it means that in the eyes of the faith they were not pious. So long as one is armored in their faith, they could not be harmed.

So on one hand, this opens a clear path for Cersei to win her trial AND get the faith's backing, even if Robert was revealed to be Gregor as it would mean he had survived his first trial thanks to the Seven, and again in the second trial. He cannot be a wight or revenant, as those on the side of the ones he harms would have to recognize that the ones they are speaking for were not pious, in which case their deaths is ordained and just and Gregor is merely an instrument of the Seven, unless the faith rejects its own tenets.

Strong will win that trial and the Faith will abide by the result, but they're not going to back Strong as an instrument of the Faith, only accept that the gods judge Cersei innocent of whatever specifically she's accused. And when Sandor defeats and unmasks him/it they'll condemn Cersei for allying with the dead and possibly annul the first result as it's supposed to be combat between two mortal men.

[Egged]

14 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Strong will win that trial and the Faith will abide by the result, but they're not going to back Strong as an instrument of the Faith, only accept that the gods judge Cersei innocent of whatever specifically she's accused. And when Sandor defeats and unmasks him/it they'll condemn Cersei for allying with the dead and possibly annul the first result as it's supposed to be combat between two mortal men.

I don't think so. I think they will support him. Sandor will always be utterly ruined because of his reputation. Ser Robert Strong will never be proven to be Gregor. That's why George has gone out of his way to put so much emphasis on House Strong in Fire & Blood, he needed to bolster the possibility that this man is not Gregor, by making them all of physically-strong stock, and he has two self-named Strongs in the GC too. So there will be enough support to claim Ser Robert Strong is not Gregor. And since wights and revenants cannot harm those armored in faith, Ser Robert Strong can simply cut to pieces anyone who claims he is to prove that they themselves are either unfaithful, or that the faith's own tenets are wrong. As Gregor, or Robert Strong, the faith cannot undo him. Qyburn knew what he was doing.

When the red priests land, the Warrior's Sons will champion for him. Sandor, meanwhile, will never be accepted other than by a few, and will likely give up his faith when he sees how high his brother has been raised by the same faith.