Green Grace's Claim that the People of Meereen weren't always Slavers - Truth or a Lie?

[Craving Peaches]

So I was wondering about something the Green Grace says to Daenerys.

Quote

Without slaves, Meereen had little to offer traders. Copper was plentiful in the Ghiscari hills, but the metal was not as valuable as it had been when bronze ruled the world. The cedars that had once grown tall along the coast grew no more, felled by the axes of the Old Empire or consumed by dragonfire when Ghis made war against Valyria. Once the trees had gone, the soil baked beneath the hot sun and blew away in thick red clouds. "It was these calamities that transformed my people into slavers," Galazza Galare had told her, at the Temple of the Graces.

This would imply that the people of Meereen were not always Slavers. Could this be true? Or is she just telling Daenerys what she thinks she wants to hear?

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

So I was wondering about something the Green Grace says to Daenerys.

This would imply that the people of Meereen were not always Slavers. Could this be true? Or is she just telling Daenerys what she thinks she wants to hear?

The latter.  Slavery was the norm in Ghis from the get go, even if slave-trading was not such a big business.

Meereen is arid, but like North Africa, it is not a desert.  Olives, corn, grapes, tomatoes, grow easily enough.   It has a huge river basin, in which to grow crops.  It has a merchant navy, smiths, weavers, builders, artisans etc. Its elite have plenty of alternatives to slave trading, should they choose to pursue them.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, SeanF said:

The latter.  Slavery was the norm in Ghis from the get go, even if slave-trading was not such a big business.

Meereen is arid, but like North Africa, it is not a desert.  Olives, corn, grapes, tomatoes, grow easily enough.   It has a huge river basin, in which to grow crops.  It has a merchant navy, smiths, weavers, builders, artisans etc. Its elite have plenty of alternatives to slave trading, should they choose to pursue them.

That's what I thought. Meereen was a part of the slaving Ghiscari Empire and then the slaving Valyrian Freehold, unless it has some past as an independent city state that we've not been told about it looks like they've always been slavers.

[Hugorfonics]

The Ghiscari empire was an empire, so like all empires in our bronze age world they probably had slavery like Egyptian, Chinese, Babylonian, etc. But I'm not sure it's correct to call these empires slavers, more like administrators and architects. 

Not to dampen what they went through but slavery in later days like Romans or Valaryins sounds more fucked up. Working to death in mines and such. Revolts in the iron and early steel age seem to occur more then the bronze (although it's further away in time so maybe not)

In the middle ages the slave trade went into overdrive though, in like the middle east and Italy, and later Portugal. This is what I think Slavers Bay is most like. Making slaves for the sake of selling them, not to build pyramids or mine obsidian but to sell them.

So I'd agree with her. Like the chances her great great great grandparents and everything after being slavers is 100% but if we go back thousands of years then her ancestors may have been warriors or priests or architects or whatever (maybe still a slaver)

[Ring3r]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

So I was wondering about something the Green Grace says to Daenerys.

This would imply that the people of Meereen were not always Slavers. Could this be true? Or is she just telling Daenerys what she thinks she wants to hear?

I'd take her words with many grains of salt, along the rim of a good margarita.  It's highly likely that she's the Harpy, and she's playing Dany.

Surely at some point that part of the world was not run on slavery, but it's probably far far in the past, likely prior to the advent of large cities that required food stores.  I'm sure the "great" Empire of the Dawn slaved, to feed themselves.  Since Planetos has had no industrial revolution or automation, forced labor is still economically more viable than trying to maintain machines.  They'll keep slaving until that changes.  Sure, there are pockets of civilization that disallow it for a time, but that's dependent on the whims of monarchs, and monarchs change all the time.

The most likely truth about Meereen is that they used to be slaves, and upon the collapse of those who were enslaving them, they turned around and engaged in exactly the same behavior.  Humans suck.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The Ghiscari empire was an empire, so like all empires in our bronze age world they probably had slavery like Egyptian, Chinese, Babylonian, etc. But I'm not sure it's correct to call these empires slavers, more like administrators and architects. 

Not to dampen what they went through but slavery in later days like Romans or Valaryins sounds more fucked up. Working to death in mines and such. Revolts in the iron and early steel age seem to occur more then the bronze (although it's further away in time so maybe not)

In the middle ages the slave trade went into overdrive though, in like the middle east and Italy, and later Portugal. This is what I think Slavers Bay is most like. Making slaves for the sake of selling them, not to build pyramids or mine obsidian but to sell them.

So I'd agree with her. Like the chances her great great great grandparents and everything after being slavers is 100% but if we go back thousands of years then her ancestors may have been warriors or priests or architects or whatever (maybe still a slaver)

For Assyria and Babylon, the norm was to deport people en masse, and to use the survivors as labourers.  Some would be administrators (like Daniel and his friends) but many would be menial labourers.

[BlackLightning]

I think the Green Grace is playing Dany like a violin.

But on this issue, she is (mostly) right. However, I do think she is trying to use the truth of matter to gaslight and manipulate Dany into feeling guilty and sympathetic for being so harsh with the Meereenese upper class...

...those feelings of guilt and sympathy would then make her pliable.

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

For Assyria and Babylon, the norm was to deport people en masse, and to use the survivors as labourers.  Some would be administrators (like Daniel and his friends) but many would be menial labourers.

The reference to the Bible was as welcomely apt as it was surprising.

You are a very intelligent man.

 

 

[SeanF]

11 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I think the Green Grace is playing Dany like a violin.

But on this issue, she is (mostly) right. However, I do think she is trying to use the truth of matter to gaslight and manipulate Dany into feeling guilty and sympathetic for being so harsh with the Meereenese upper class...

...those feelings of guilt and sympathy would then make her pliable.

The reference to the Bible was as welcomely apt as it was surprising.

You are a very intelligent man.

 

 

Thank you.

[Hugorfonics]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

For Assyria and Babylon, the norm was to deport people en masse, and to use the survivors as labourers.  Some would be administrators (like Daniel and his friends) but many would be menial labourers.

Word, the Romans too. And the Greeks, Arabs, Vikings, Mongols etc. 

I just feel like when we hit the middle ages  (later age of exploration) the slave trade truly becomes a trade. Like Genoa or Venice, where the entire function of the economy is just to generate more slaves.

I feel like it's more apt to call them slavers then their Roman forbearers, even if the Romans enslaved by the millions as well

[BalerionTheCat]

Old Ghis is said to be a city built upon slavery. Its founder, Grazdan the Great, remains so revered that men of the slaver families are still often given his name. So the Harpy, the culture of Meereen is rooted in slavery. Old Ghis and its army proceeded to colonize its surroundings, then, pressing on, to subjugate its neighbors. Thus was the first empire born. Maybe what Galazza Galare means, is that in this place, once lived free people (maybe like Naath). But they were conquered, enslaved.

She and the ruling families are the slavers. Her priestess and apprentices are her slaves.

[Ring3r]

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word, the Romans too. And the Greeks, Arabs, Vikings, Mongols etc. 

I just feel like when we hit the middle ages  (later age of exploration) the slave trade truly becomes a trade. Like Genoa or Venice, where the entire function of the economy is just to generate more slaves.

I feel like it's more apt to call them slavers then their Roman forbearers, even if the Romans enslaved by the millions as well

Every culture did - the Native American tribes were constantly doing it to each other, it was everywhere in Africa, it was prevalent in South America.  It was how economics worked for thousands of years, essentially everywhere. (again, humans suck)

Mereen might have gone through a spell where, for whatever reason, they didn't consider it economically necessary or expedient (probably for a short period after they were no longer slaves themselves) but they certainly leaned right back into it.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Ring3r said:

Every culture did - the Native American tribes were constantly doing it to each other, it was everywhere in Africa, it was prevalent in South America.  It was how economics worked for thousands of years, essentially everywhere. (again, humans suck)

Mereen might have gone through a spell where, for whatever reason, they didn't consider it economically necessary or expedient (probably for a short period after they were no longer slaves themselves) but they certainly leaned right back into it.

The native American comparison I think is very apt to the op, especially if we include the Dothraki. So like yea, ignorant humans suck, and in the bronze age everyone's ignorant. So they did have slaves, usually prisoners of war to like help the wife around the house or something. But the main goal was war, not economics. Although I'm sure there was trading going on and I'm sure human trafficking was if not a majority then something close. Still, slavery is like an add on. A bonus.

With the introduction of horses into America some Indian tribes took to em naturally and after riding since the day of birth by the time they hit puberty they're terrific riders, with beat up balls. Slavery became a necessity, the only way to stay true to keep the population somewhat in existence. And around this time towns like San Antonio became cities almost exclusively because of the slave trade, and the fact that the Indians probably won't attack because that's where their money is

Very Dothraki/ghiscari like I think, where their slaving was pushed on to them by outside elements. 

[BalerionTheCat]

7 hours ago, Ring3r said:

(again, humans suck)

Yes. The first thing Astapor did when Dany freed them and left, was to find itself a new set of slavers.

Why a lesson by the Others, about the benefit of helping together,  is well deserved and needed. And it is needed not just in the North.

[Rondo]

On 10/6/2022 at 5:46 PM, SeanF said:

The latter.  Slavery was the norm in Ghis from the get go, even if slave-trading was not such a big business.

Meereen is arid, but like North Africa, it is not a desert.  Olives, corn, grapes, tomatoes, grow easily enough.   It has a huge river basin, in which to grow crops.  It has a merchant navy, smiths, weavers, builders, artisans etc. Its elite have plenty of alternatives to slave trading, should they choose to pursue them.

The World of Ice and Fire had a passage that said, "the Valyrians learned slaving from Ghis." Or something close.  The meaning is the same.  The Harpy predate the Valyrian war.  The Valyrians  cannot to be blamed for the slaving culture of the Ghis.  

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Yes. The first thing Astapor did when Dany freed them and left, was to find itself a new set of slavers.

Why a lesson by the Others, about the benefit of helping together,  is well deserved and needed. And it is needed not just in the North.

It’s an inescapable problem, that the ex-slaves will want revenge on the freeborn.

[SeanF]

21 minutes ago, Rondo said:

The World of Ice and Fire had a passage that said, "the Valyrians learned slaving from Ghis." Or something close.  The meaning is the same.  The Harpy predate the Valyrian war.  The Valyrians  cannot to be blamed for the slaving culture of the Ghis.  

Yes, and the Wiki says that the Old Empire of Ghis was a slave state.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

It’s an inescapable problem, that the ex-slaves will want revenge on the freeborn.

Over the course of thousands of years?

Besides, in America after the slaves were freed they didn't go haywire on revenge. Despite the politicians, let's say concerns, the descendants of slaves are evidently able to live in harmony with their enslavers descendents.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Yes, and the Wiki says that the Old Empire of Ghis was a slave state.

But those books are written by maesters who are both biased and uninformed. I feel like the further we go back in time and away from Oldtown they become even more uninformed, although probably not more biased because I don't think that's possible 

[BalerionTheCat]

3 hours ago, Rondo said:

The World of Ice and Fire had a passage that said, "the Valyrians learned slaving from Ghis." Or something close.  The meaning is the same.  The Harpy predate the Valyrian war.  The Valyrians  cannot to be blamed for the slaving culture of the Ghis.  

Not an excuse for their practices.

Quote

THE VALYRIANS LEARNED one deplorable thing from the Ghiscari: slavery. The Ghiscari whom they conquered were the first to be thus enslaved, but not the last...

As Valyria grew, its need for ore increased, which led to ever more conquests to keep the mines stocked with slaves. The Valyrians expanded in all directions, stretching out east beyond the Ghiscari cities and west to the very shores of Essos, where even the Ghiscari had not made inroads.

They put it to a new level! They also had need of slaves for their dark magic. Which, if possible, was still worse.

[Craving Peaches]

47 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

They put it to a new level! They also had need of slaves for their dark magic. Which, if possible, was still worse.

I agree. Valyrians would have seen the suffering of the slaves of Ghis and still chose to adopt their practices - they learned it from them and took it to a worse new level. I know slavery was common but I still don't think that excuses the Valyrians.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Not an excuse for their practices.

They put it to a new level! They also had need of slaves for their dark magic. Which, if possible, was still worse.

Valyria likely sacrificed slaves, which takes it to a new level, as you say.