[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

This seems to obviously be forgetting the situation is transactional.  She wants the information.

Does she? It really doesn't look that way in both scenes.

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

Cole is in love with the "idea" of Alicent.  Destroy that idea and you may lose two allies.

Cole also doesn't seem to like it if some creep bothered Alicent (or his idea of her).

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

Again, you're overthinking this.  She's terrified of the guy.

I'd say you are underthinking it.

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

No, we mustn't.

We must, if we want an explanation why she removes her shoes in episode 6.

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think a private exchange for sexual favors is common enough both would have the discretion and knowhow to negotiate that privately and subtly.  But I agree the foot fetish aspect is ridiculous and a very trite characterization of Larys, as I've said.

Alicent doesn't strike us as a person who has experience with granting sexual favors outside of marriage ... and it would border on treason to actually approach her with such a notion.

The bottom line is - as queen Alicent would only offer sexual favors she herself might enjoy, especially in exchange for something as trivial as information. Larys could expect to receive other rewards and favors from a grateful queen, but he would have no way to force or push the queen into doing something she doesn't like.

And the whole point of the scene is to show that she very much doesn't like doing this. In fact, she clearly doesn't want to hang out with Larys even when he doesn't creep her out.

I mean, go back, imagine how this relationship developed. Larys approaches the queen with information, she promises him non-sexual favor X, and he counters with 'Let me jerk to your feet or nothing happens.'

Then, well, what about the displeasure of the queen? Is Larys not afraid of that? Does he think the queen could not find some other goon who feeds her information? Or that the queen couldn't be more annoyed with his outrageous proposals and demands than pleased by what he has to offer?

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Does she? It really doesn't look that way in both scenes.

The scene starts with him saying "I have found out something you should know," and then her clearly - albeit certainly disgusted by it - going along with it because she wants the information.  He's obviously not "forcing" her to do it, as long as she doesn't want the information.  He also offers to take out Mysaria and she accepts.  Seems pretty clear to me.    I don't know what other scene you're referring to when you say "both scenes."

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cole also doesn't seem to like it if some creep bothered Alicent (or his idea of her).

Right, like I said, she'd have to lie - at least by omission.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We must, if we want an explanation why she removes her shoes in episode 6.

No we really don't.  Maybe she noticed he was into her feet and that's her way of seduction/foreplay.  We can't assume these transactions were going on then. 

Regardless, you need to separate such transactions from her being terrified of him and subsequently scared to make a move against him.  The former she clearly could refuse if she doesn't want the information, the latter not so much - at least in her mind.

[RhaenysBee]

Very late to this episode so I will try to keep it short. 

Nobody expected this episode to top or even equal the previous one. And yes a quiet and low heat episode was necessary between episode 8 and the finale (which I have yet to watch). But that doesn’t mean you get to wreak whatever havoc the writers did on this script.

Things that worked: 
The only person with actual presence in this episode was Aemond and I’m so thankful for him. The actor is by far the best of the new generation cast and he is able to command the screen. 
The urgency and tension to contain the news while preparations were ongoing worked in an emotional sense to a certain point. 
People standing up for Viserys’s memory and Rhaenyra were powerful (lord commander, that old person on the small council, that one lord and lady who didn’t bend the knee, Arryk or Eryk) 
Alicent’s turmoil finally fleshed out her adult version. 
Meleys cgi looked impressive. 

Things that didn’t work: 
-How does criston cole still exist in this universe? 
-Ankle-porn. Listen, the issue is not that you wrote a gratuitous and repulsive scene to prove that you can have a repulsive scene without explicit nudity. The issue is that you are implying that the queen has to hand out intimate favors to Larys for information and control. This is new and disturbing and takes a lot away from who Alicent has become. Very poor choice. 
-for the love of god stop trying to make fetch happen. The white worm aka daemon’s former lady friend aka mysterious power person should never ever have made the final script. What an absolutely ridiculous, aimless idea to include this paper cut out of a character and have the audacity to make her the spokesperson for the woes of the common people. It’s a joke. Not as bad as Criston Cole but nearly. 
- so tell me again who was that child we had the camera follow in the first shot? Was he a little bird? Was he a servant? He seemed better dressed. Was he a son or a grandson of the king? If so why don’t I know him? Whoever he was when, how and why did he wander into the King’s bed chambers in the wee hours? I don’t get it. You wanted a scene with the camera following a child. 
- why is Rhaenys in king’s landing? Why would she kill several people but not the Hightowers or at least Criston fucking Cole? I would have forgiven this whole scene of her suddenly growing armor out of her shoulders, doing massive collateral damage, and getting her dragon scream at Alicent, if she at least roasted Criston fucking Cole. What was the point? What were you trying to achieve with this scene? Oh, you wanted an angry dragon scene because it’s cool. Okay.
- so the commoners have evil and immoral fighting pits for children in flea bottom. Wow, I feel… things..? Or do I? this narrative has no place in your entire story because you didn’t make room for it and especially no place in this particular storyline and episode. No, I don’t feel anything, and yes I already knew that Aegon was a piece of shit.
-If you have the mysterious white worm lady friend lobby for the ending of this evil practice, you made things worse
-if you have her leverage the kidnapping/hiding/luring/hell knows what even happened of the prince inside the bottom of an altar, you are beyond help. Why? How? 
-did you just play Robert Baratheon’z theme at the crowning of a Targaryen-Hightower prince? Did you really? Did I hear that right? 
- Otto is discount version, Larys is a creep, Rhaenys doesn’t have a character, ladyfriend has even less, Cole is at this point a slimy and spineless Gregor Clegane, Aemond doesn’t have screen time, Aegon is a piece of shit, Helaena is a prop, Alicent is too neurotic. There was virtually nobody to carry this episode so it fell flat on its face, and hard. 

[Alester Florent]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already but I can't face reading 41 pages on the offchance. While Erryk is escaping with Rhaenyra, they pass a burning building and the camera lingers on it for a moment as if this was meant to be significant. I however have no idea what this building was or what the significance of its burning was supposed to be. Can anyone enlighten me?

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Apologies if this has been mentioned already but I can't face reading 41 pages on the offchance. While Erryk is escaping with Rhaenyra, they pass a burning building and the camera lingers on it for a moment as if this was meant to be significant. I however have no idea what this building was or what the significance of its burning was supposed to be. Can anyone enlighten me?

That was Mysaria's manse, burned by or at the behest of Larys Strong, acting on behalf of Queen Alicent (after he fed her the idea that Mysaria was Otto's creature and spying on her).

The context would be rather significant since, unless there is a major diversion in the story, Mysaria is going to survive this attempt on her life ... which would give her ample motivation of her to get even with the fucking Greens - and especially Alicent Hightower. Chances are that the manse was not just Mysaria's property and home but also full of her people - many of whom might have died in the fire.

That, in turn, would mean that Blood and Cheese will not just be Daemon's and Rhaenyra's and Corlys' etc. revenge for Lucerys, but also Mysaria's revenge for killing the people under her protection.

My guess is that this is going to play a role when the actual targets of Blood and Cheese are determined - which end up being innocent women and children. Just as, presumably, the people who died in the fire will turn out to be.

In fact, while I'm sure Helaena will still be forced to make her dreadful choice, it might turn out that Mysaria will demand the the bound and gagged Alicent will have to helplessly watch her daughter making that cruel choice and her elder grandson losing his head.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Knowing this show, there’ll be some kind of misunderstanding or accident involved in B&C. After all, Mysaria is apparently a social worker now, so I doubt the writers will have her turn around and order a child’s murder.

Edited March 4, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort

[GZ Bloodraven]

On 3/3/2023 at 9:57 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Knowing this show, there’ll be some kind of misunderstanding or accident involved in B&C. After all, Mysaria is apparently a social worker now, so I doubt the writers will have her turn around and order a child’s murder.

Why would B&C be an accident? Having Daemon kill some kids seems right up HotD's alley. Also Mysaria is running a food/housing, spy, and kingnapper network; obviously she's gonna have assassins on hand and it actually does make her motivation to spite Alicent much stronger than in the novel: why would she help Daemon when she would have much more luck staying under Alicent's radar? Because Alicent blew up her housing.