The Targaryens and the wrongs done to them.

[BalerionTheCat]

11 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Aerys was insane. You don’t kill insane people 

We don't. They shouldn't. Aerys was not the problem.

The problem was all those still obeying his orders. Ready to burn KL and plunge the kingdom in chaos. Because of oaths they were too proud to reject. Because of stupidity and weakness. Because they were just bootlickers. Or plotters like Varys.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, SeanF said:

I think that's rather like trying to convert England back into the Seven Kingdoms of the Anglo-Saxon period, or to convert Germany back into its pre-Unification political condition.

Westeros has been united for only 300 years though compared to thousands of years as separate Kingdoms. I don't think Germany works as a comparison because it's a completely different 'time period' with different politics etc.

[SeanF]

30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Westeros has been united for only 300 years though compared to thousands of years as separate Kingdoms. I don't think Germany works as a comparison because it's a completely different 'time period' with different politics etc.

Seven kingdoms means seven powers all vying for dominance.  It means an arms race across a continent, and seven new tariff barriers.  It also means famine in some parts, if the merchants of independent Reach can charge whatever they can, to the peoples of newly independent countries.  

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Seven kingdoms means seven powers all vying for dominance.  It means an arms race across a continent, and seven new tariff barriers.  It also means famine in some parts, if the merchants of independent Reach can charge whatever they can, to the peoples of newly independent countries.

That may be true but I'm confused as to what it has to do with the comment you quoted. That is the way it has been for thousands of years so...it would just be a return to the way things were before without the dragons. Only dragons could unite Westeros. Without them I don't believe the continent would stay united. And they might agree to cooperate more after seeing the threat of the others.

[AlaskanSandman]

16 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

We have a window into Jaime's POV.  He suspected, but he didn't know.

Or he could have saved the people of Kings Landing, which was the better choice.  It is unlikely that he could have gotten very far with baby Aegon.  If Aerys caught him running off with Aegon, Jaime would die and then Aegon would die anyway when Tywin arrived.  If Tywin caught Jaime, Aegon would still die.

Holding vows are important... unless those vows are to a villainous mass-murdering psychopath.  Jaime is not a hero, but he did the right thing in killing Aerys.

No.  We also have a window into Daenerys's point of view, and she wants to serve her "enemies" with fire and blood.  And she certainly considers "the Kingslayer" to be her enemy.  What Daenerys actually does when she returns to Westeros remains to be seen, but as of now it is all about "claiming her rightful throne", not about saving anybody in Westeros... least of all "the Usurper's dogs".

So Jaime should let a million people die so the Targaryens can save the world from a future threat Jaime doesn't know about?  If Jaime didn't kill Aerys and wildfire went off, Aerys would have died anyway, as would have Aegon and Rhaenys and everyone else in Kings Landing... so Jaime didn't "risk" anything because those Targaryens died anyway.

This is all assuming that the Targaryens must be in power to save the world, which I don't believe.

Rhaegar (supposedly) kidnapping Lyanna didn't start the rebellion.  The rebellion started when Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn turn over Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon to be executed.  Aerys started the rebellion.

Tywin is despicable.  Tywin being an evil man doesn't discount Aerys as being an evil man.  They are both villains.  Tywin absolutely should be held accountable for his wrongs against Elia and Aegon and Rhaenys, but his greater wrongs are against Kings Landing as a whole rather than House Targaryen.  Aerys brought down House Targaryen by his own actions, not Robert or the Lannisters.

Jaime is not a great person, but he committed no wrongs against House Targaryen.

Except, Jamies own conscience tells us otherwise. This is a point brought up even. The K.G is supposed to protect the king, even from himself. Jamies actions later in the novels show his growth. I.e. Jamie failed Aerys.

[TheLastWolf]

On 10/11/2022 at 5:06 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Nice list, but where is the one of the wrongs the Targaryens have done to others ?

An OP wouldn't be enough for that lol

As for what I could gather of the rest here...

Nice apologetic vibes, gives ya good sleep

Surprised the fairy godmother devotees are subdued here. Maybe hatred has won over their zealousness

[AlaskanSandman]

17 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

We have a window into Jaime's POV.  He suspected, but he didn't know.

Or he could have saved the people of Kings Landing, which was the better choice.  It is unlikely that he could have gotten very far with baby Aegon.  If Aerys caught him running off with Aegon, Jaime would die and then Aegon would die anyway when Tywin arrived.  If Tywin caught Jaime, Aegon would still die.

Holding vows are important... unless those vows are to a villainous mass-murdering psychopath.  Jaime is not a hero, but he did the right thing in killing Aerys.

No.  We also have a window into Daenerys's point of view, and she wants to serve her "enemies" with fire and blood.  And she certainly considers "the Kingslayer" to be her enemy.  What Daenerys actually does when she returns to Westeros remains to be seen, but as of now it is all about "claiming her rightful throne", not about saving anybody in Westeros... least of all "the Usurper's dogs".

So Jaime should let a million people die so the Targaryens can save the world from a future threat Jaime doesn't know about?  If Jaime didn't kill Aerys and wildfire went off, Aerys would have died anyway, as would have Aegon and Rhaenys and everyone else in Kings Landing... so Jaime didn't "risk" anything because those Targaryens died anyway.

This is all assuming that the Targaryens must be in power to save the world, which I don't believe.

Rhaegar (supposedly) kidnapping Lyanna didn't start the rebellion.  The rebellion started when Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn turn over Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon to be executed.  Aerys started the rebellion.

Tywin is despicable.  Tywin being an evil man doesn't discount Aerys as being an evil man.  They are both villains.  Tywin absolutely should be held accountable for his wrongs against Elia and Aegon and Rhaenys, but his greater wrongs are against Kings Landing as a whole rather than House Targaryen.  Aerys brought down House Targaryen by his own actions, not Robert or the Lannisters.

Jaime is not a great person, but he committed no wrongs against House Targaryen.

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Ser Meryn got a stubborn look on his face. "Are you telling us not to obey the king?"
"The king is eight. Our first duty is to protect him, which includes protecting him from himself. Use that ugly thing you keep inside your helm. If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me."
"Aye. As you command, my lord."

 

 

Once you except that even Jamie acknowledges his failure, you have to accept the fact that Jamie could have and should have done more to protect Aerys, Rhaella, Aegon, and Rhaenys. That by killing the king, allowing their deaths, and his father to sack K.L. is an utter failure of his oath. An oath that overrides any other oath he may have. 

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime III

Urswyck spread his hands. "What Timeon means to say is that the Brave Companions are no longer in the hire of House Lannister. We now serve Lord Bolton, and the King in the North."

Jaime gave him a cold, contemptuous smile. "And men say I have shit for honor?"

 

 

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Once you except that even Jamie acknowledges his failure, you have to accept the fact that Jamie could have and should have done more to protect Aerys, Rhaella, Aegon, and Rhaenys. That by killing the king, allowing their deaths, and his father to sack K.L. is an utter failure of his oath. An oath that overrides any other oath he may have. 

How was he supposed to save Aerys though? If he does nothing Aerys will blow up the city and kill everyone in it, including all the remaining Targaryens, causing damage far worse than the sack. They don't have any way to care properly for Aerys and it's highly unlikely he would step down peacefully. 

He might have been able to save the other Targaryens after killing Aerys if he knew they were going to be killed. But how is he meant to save Aerys?

[AlaskanSandman]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

How was he supposed to save Aerys though? If he does nothing Aerys will blow up the city and kill everyone in it, including all the remaining Targaryens, causing damage far worse than the sack. They don't have any way to care properly for Aerys and it's highly unlikely he would step down peacefully. 

He might have been able to save the other Targaryens after killing Aerys if he knew they were going to be killed. But how is he meant to save Aerys?

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

"The king is eight. Our first duty is to protect him, which includes protecting him from himself.  Use that ugly thing you keep inside your helm. If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me."

 

 

 

Speak with the L.C. for one. Speak with Rhaegar for another. Kill the pyromancers, but NOT the King....Im sure there are other ways he could have helped instead of hindering. By Jamies own words, we can glean what he thinks should have been done. As he tries to teach his K.G. members, one of which is to come to him if needed. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Speak with the L.C. for one. Speak with Rhaegar for another.

I'm sure they were both well aware of Aerys condition. And for all we know Jaime did speak to Rhaegar about it.

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Kill the pyromancers, but NOT the King....Im sure there are other ways he could have helped instead of hindering. By Jamies own words, we can glean what he thinks should have been done. As he tries to teach his K.G. members, one of which is to come to him if needed. 

And if he just kills the pyromancers, Aerys might try to light it himself. Or order someone else to do it. And what is going to happen afterwards? I really doubt anyone was going to let Aerys live after what he'd done.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm sure they were both well aware of Aerys condition. And for all we know Jaime did speak to Rhaegar about it.

And if he just kills the pyromancers, Aerys might try to light it himself. Or order someone else to do it. And what is going to happen afterwards? I really doubt anyone was going to let Aerys live after what he'd done.

And yet, Jamie feels guilty for it and changes his views and how he handles the K.G. under him as L.C. to Tommen. This is the importance of part of his arch. Not just to make you feel sympathy for why Jamie did what he did back then, but to also understand how he plans to change to make things right.

Maybe that night left him little options, but hardly no options. Leading up to that night in the many months since Aerys burned Brandon and Rickard, Jamie had time to do something. He could have secretly dispatched all the Pyromancers back then. He could have pressed Rhaegar for the importance of him taking the throne (If indeed Rhaegar intended to and that it wasn't just more slander). 

If im wrong, then Jamie has nothing to learn, and nothing to grow from. He did the "right thing" by most of the boards thoughts, no need to self evaluate in this case, no need to change your ways or character, and no need to hide what you did from everyone and be hailed the proper hero you are. After all, the Targaryen's are all gone and his family and son sits the throne. Jamie can come out with the truth by now, if indeed it was such a heroic action that would fix his "Shit honor". I think not though.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yet, Jamie feels guilty for it

He feels guilty for not saving the children and Rhaella. I really doubt he feels guilty for killing Aerys. And I always though his changes to the kingsguard were motivated by Joffrey. He wanted to be a good father figure for Tommen because he wasn't there for Joffrey.

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Jamie had time to do something. He could have secretly dispatched all the Pyromancers back then.

He might not have known about the plot at that point.

3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

He could have pressed Rhaegar for the importance of him taking the throne (If indeed Rhaegar intended to and that it wasn't just more slander)

Then that's treason, especially in Aerys' view, so he's still breaking his vows.

3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If im wrong, then Jamie has nothing to learn, and nothing to grow from. He did the "right thing" by most of the boards thoughts, no need to self evaluate in this case, no need to change your ways or character, and no need to hide what you did from everyone and be hailed the proper hero you are. After all, the Targaryen's are all gone and his family and son sits the throne. Jamie can come out with the truth by now, if indeed it was such a heroic action that would fix his "Shit honor". I think not though.

Jaime has done some awful things that he needs to learn from such as pushing Bran out a window, but I really don't think killing Aerys was one of them.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He feels guilty for not saving the children and Rhaella. I really doubt he feels guilty for killing Aerys. And I always though his changes to the kingsguard were motivated by Joffrey. He wanted to be a good father figure for Tommen because he wasn't there for Joffrey.

He might not have known about the plot at that point.

Then that's treason, especially in Aerys' view, so he's still breaking his vows.

Jaime has done some awful things that he needs to learn from such as pushing Bran out a window, but I really don't think killing Aerys was one of them.

I would say that his son now being King greatly has changed his thoughts on his prior actions to the King he slayed. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I would say that his son now being King greatly has changed his thoughts on his prior actions to the King he slayed.

Maybe, but I don't think he feels bad about it. Aerys was mad before he was a part of the kingsguard. He did speak about the issues he had with the other members but they weren't exactly helpful.

I don't think there was really a way to save Aerys, and even if Jaime somehow managed to keep him alive and defuse the Wildfire plot, I doubt Aerys would live much longer because all the rebels would want him dead.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Maybe, but I don't think he feels bad about it. Aerys was mad before he was a part of the kingsguard. He did speak about the issues he had with the other members but they weren't exactly helpful.

I don't think there was really a way to save Aerys, and even if Jaime somehow managed to keep him alive and defuse the Wildfire plot, I doubt Aerys would live much longer because all the rebels would want him dead.

He was driven mad, by Pycelle and Tywin.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

He was driven mad, by Pycelle and Tywin.

I'm not sure about that. Pycelle was working with Tywin but how would they drive him mad? If anything it was Varys who was making him more and more paranoid.

Also, regardless of the origin of Aerys' madness, I think the rebels would still want to kill him. I don't think they would believe that Aerys was being poisoned even if someone told them, without which I don't think it would even cross their minds.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure about that. Pycelle was working with Tywin but how would they drive him mad? If anything it was Varys who was making him more and more paranoid.

Also, regardless of the origin of Aerys' madness, I think the rebels would still want to kill him. I don't think they would believe that Aerys was being poisoned even if someone told them, without which I don't think it would even cross their minds.

Rhaella's many failed births could have been Pycelle killing Aery's kids on order of Tywin Lannister seeking revenge. Specially after Aerys supposedly insulted him about Tyrion. 

Tywin let him sit in Duskendale and risked his life adding to Aery's paranoia. 

It has been alluded that Aery's fall was helped along by those around him. Those that Jamie swore an Oath to  protect him from.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaella's many failed births could have been Pycelle killing Aery's kids on order of Tywin Lannister seeking revenge. Specially after Aerys supposedly insulted him about Tyrion. 

Rhaella had miscarriages before Tywin and Aerys had their big falling out though.

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Tywin let him sit in Duskendale and risked his life adding to Aery's paranoia. 

Is it not more likely that Tywin was trying to just get him killed at Duskendale rather than making him mad?

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It has been alluded that Aery's fall was helped along by those around him. Those that Jamie swore an Oath to  protect him from.

At the end he had a council full of yes-men so I don't think they were helping Aerys.

[StarkTullies]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

"The king is eight. Our first duty is to protect him, which includes protecting him from himself. Use that ugly thing you keep inside your helm. If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me."

"The king is eight" is extremely relevant, which doesn't apply to Aerys.  Tommen has no authority until he is 16; the realm is ruled by the regents.

Aerys didn't want to kill his horse.  He wanted to kill hundreds of thousands of people.

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Jaime gave him a cold, contemptuous smile. "And men say I have shit for honor?"

Note the question mark.  Jaime's statement was rhetorical, obviously implying that he has more honor than the people around him.  Jaime threw away any little honor he might have had left when he threw Bran out the window, but killing Aerys was not dishonorable.

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Once you except that even Jamie acknowledges his failure, you have to accept the fact that Jamie could have and should have done more to protect Aerys, Rhaella, Aegon, and Rhaenys. That by killing the king, allowing their deaths, and his father to sack K.L. is an utter failure of his oath. An oath that overrides any other oath he may have. 

Jaime considers that his "finest hour"; he didn't acknowledge his "failure".  Your quote about kingsguards not blindly following an underage king who does not yet have any official authority has nothing to do with Aerys.

Protecting hundreds of thousands of people is more important than protecting one psychopathic king who is too dangerous to be allowed to live.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Speak with the L.C. for one. Speak with Rhaegar for another. Kill the pyromancers, but NOT the King

The Lord Commander and Rhaegar were both dead by this point.  And why would he talk to Rhaegar?  You seem to believe that the king has unquestionable authority who must be obeyed at all costs, so going over his head to Rhaegar who was merely his heir would not be appropriate.

Implied by your apparent belief in the king having unquestioned authority, the pyromancers had no choice in their actions.  The king orders the pyromancer to kill hundreds of thousands of people, they must do it.  The pyromancers are nothing but weapons in the king's hands.  If Jaime killed the pyromancers (which he did), more would take their place.  Aerys was the danger.  Aerys must be killed.

I'll say it again: the lives of hundreds of thousands of people trump the lives of one evil king.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yet, Jamie feels guilty for it and changes his views and how he handles the K.G. under him as L.C. to Tommen.

Once again, Tommen is underage with no authority.  The regent is the true ruler of the realm.  Tommen and Aerys are not comparable situations.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I would say that his son now being King greatly has changed his thoughts on his prior actions to the King he slayed.

Well he certainly didn't think Joffrey was a worthy king.  He thinks better of Tommen than Aerys because Tommen is better than Aerys, and not because he's his son.  His thoughts about "Ser Criston Cole the Kingmaker" indicates he doesn't have blind loyalty even to his own son-king.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

He could have pressed Rhaegar for the importance of him taking the throne (If indeed Rhaegar intended to and that it wasn't just more slander). 

What?  You say Jaime is obligated to keep his oaths to the king at all costs... but Jaime should have conspired with Rhaegar to help him usurp the throne from the king he swore oaths to?  That makes no sense.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

He was driven mad, by Pycelle and Tywin.

Varys would be the most likely culprit if someone on his small council drove him mad.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaella's many failed births could have been Pycelle killing Aery's kids on order of Tywin Lannister seeking revenge.

Maybe.  It happened with Maegor.  Or, it could be that brother and sister were practicing incest.  This is beside the point though.  Even if other people drove him mad, Aerys intended to kill hundreds of thousands of people, and he needed to be killed for the good of humanity.

Going back to the original point of this thread, if people intentionally drove Aerys mad, name that as a wrong against the Targaryens.  But Jaime justly executing a dangerous tyrant is not a wrong.

[Daenerysthegreat]

On 10/12/2022 at 4:43 PM, StarkTullies said:

As previously stated, I strongly disagree that Jaime wronged House Targaryen by killing Aerys.  Aerys wronged the entire realm and his family's downfall is his fault.  Tywin's fault too, but two opposing sides can both be villains, and in this case they both were.

I didn’t say he wronged house Targaryen. I had to mention how Aerys died.