Aldarion Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 3 hours ago, Lord Varys said: How do the Dothraki then survive in the Dothraki Sea? Dothraki survive because they are nomads, with all that implies: small population, high mobility, and massive amounts of cattle (even if we only see horses). But for people of Meereen etc. to survive the trek through the Dothraki Sea, hell for her armies to survive the trek, Daenaerys would have to spend decades turning her people into horse nomads before she can even think of travelling through the Sea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 42 minutes ago, Aldarion said: Dothraki survive because they are nomads, with all that implies: small population, high mobility, and massive amounts of cattle (even if we only see horses). But for people of Meereen etc. to survive the trek through the Dothraki Sea, hell for her armies to survive the trek, Daenaerys would have to spend decades turning her people into horse nomads before she can even think of travelling through the Sea. That strikes me as you inventing things you would like to be true. The Dothraki do can take other people with them and feed them, they do that all the time when they capture slaves. Not to mention we see large groups of people cross deserts in this world without having any preparation for that at all. It will happen if the plot demands it. And things like that would happen offscreen anyway, like the Golden Company's journey to Westeros. But as I said already - with Volantis about to fall to slave revolution Dany might end up controlling thousands of ships in addition to the Volantene fleet that will defect to her. If there is a slave revolution in Volantis it will be done in Dany's name as the Widow of the Waterfront already indicated. And with three dragonriders claiming their dragons soon they will have the logistics to coordinate long journeys on land and sea. Dany and the others can fly from group to group in a row, checking on things on a weekly basis, say, allowing them to send help or prepare things for the arrival people, etc. Darth Sidious 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: That strikes me as you inventing things you would like to be true. The Dothraki do can take other people with them and feed them, they do that all the time when they capture slaves. I am not inventing anything, you just have no clue about logistics. Taking a group of slaves across the Dothraki Sea can be done if slaves are not too numerous. They will just live off the Dothraki's own logistics. Taking entire population of a city is something else entirely. As is taking an actual army. There are reasons why armies of settled societies generally didn't try to pursue nomads into the steppe, and logistics of warfare in the steppe are one of primary ones. 39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Not to mention we see large groups of people cross deserts in this world without having any preparation for that at all. It will happen if the plot demands it. And things like that would happen offscreen anyway, like the Golden Company's journey to Westeros. How large deserts and how large groups? And sure, Martin can fart out magic pixie dust and have Daenaerys take entire population of Essos with her. But that would mean that story and Martin himself have taken leave of their senses, and that literally anything goes. You do that, you might as well have an army of pink unicorns descend from the heavens to wipe out the Others. There, problem solved, now everybody can live happily ever after! 42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: But as I said already - with Volantis about to fall to slave revolution Dany might end up controlling thousands of ships in addition to the Volantene fleet that will defect to her. If there is a slave revolution in Volantis it will be done in Dany's name as the Widow of the Waterfront already indicated. And with three dragonriders claiming their dragons soon they will have the logistics to coordinate long journeys on land and sea. Dany and the others can fly from group to group in a row, checking on things on a weekly basis, say, allowing them to send help or prepare things for the arrival people, etc. Long journeys on sea and along the coastline, yes. Long journeys through the Dothraki Sea, no. Anybody that Daenaerys takes with herself will have to come either by sea, or by coastline where they can be supplied by sea. Dothraki Sea is out of the question for anybody other than Dothraki themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, Aldarion said: I am not inventing anything, you just have no clue about logistics. Taking a group of slaves across the Dothraki Sea can be done if slaves are not too numerous. They will just live off the Dothraki's own logistics. Taking entire population of a city is something else entirely. As is taking an actual army. Drogo enslaves an entire khalasar in AGoT plus the Lhazareen that khalasar had just attacked. Those might easily enough be more people than the population of an entire city. Not to mention that nobody has actually suggested that the Slaver's Bay folks would go west through the Dothraki Sea. That would be for the Dothraki. But to be sure - we talk only about tens of thousands of people there, not all that many. There aren't millions of Meereenese. And some might choose to stay behind or move only to Volantis (which might turn into a paradise once the slaver parasites are all put down and the wealth is divided among the free people). You also have to consider that the Dothraki magically survive the winter in their sea. The grass is dying already, so winter seems to not exactly support the nomad lifestyle anymore. No idea how they do it ... but not my job to explain it. Bottom line remains - if George wants to move people from point A to point B it will happen. And if not, then not. But then he won't explain something not happening by way of it being logistically impossible ... as he just doesn't care about that. Logistics wasn't even the real issue Dany didn't leave Meereen - she wanted to stay and she could have gotten the ships she needed if she had wanted to. From Xaro and the Yunkai'i if need be. 1 hour ago, Aldarion said: How large deserts and how large groups? Dany's pitiful group of people in ACoK. 1 hour ago, Aldarion said: And sure, Martin can fart out magic pixie dust and have Daenaerys take entire population of Essos with her. But that would mean that story and Martin himself have taken leave of their senses, and that literally anything goes. Nobody said something as ridiculous as that. 1 hour ago, Aldarion said: You do that, you might as well have an army of pink unicorns descend from the heavens to wipe out the Others. There, problem solved, now everybody can live happily ever after! LOL, honestly, that would make more sense that a bunch of feudal assheads and fake medieval peasants do that job. They just keep showing that they don't even understand the danger, and that any of their levies have the stamina or the ability to stand against a zombie army - much less ice demons and ice spiders and whatever else the Others have in store - is ludicrous. At best a realistic ending of the book series would see a pitiful band of survivors flee to the Summer Isle to hope they can live for a time there and die of old age before all world freezes over and dies a shivering death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Not to mention that nobody has actually suggested that the Slaver's Bay folks would go west through the Dothraki Sea. That would be for the Dothraki. As I said: Daenaerys will need a fleet, even if she sends Dothraki through the Dothraki Sea. 25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Nobody said something as ridiculous as that. Some people on forum have, actually. 20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: LOL, honestly, that would make more sense that a bunch of feudal assheads and fake medieval peasants do that job. They just keep showing that they don't even understand the danger, and that any of their levies have the stamina or the ability to stand against a zombie army - much less ice demons and ice spiders and whatever else the Others have in store - is ludicrous. It is true that they don't understand the danger, but for the nth time, Westerosi soldiers are not just conscripted peasants. Even if they are, they do not behave the way conscripted peasants should. These are, effectively, professional soldiers. 21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: At best a realistic ending of the book series would see a pitiful band of survivors flee to the Summer Isle to hope they can live for a time there and die of old age before all world freezes over and dies a shivering death. Yes, that would be a realistic ending. Realistic ending for every single winter Westeros goes through, that is - nothing to do with the Others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 6 minutes ago, Aldarion said: As I said: Daenaerys will need a fleet, even if she sends Dothraki through the Dothraki Sea. Sure, but she will get multiple fleets in any case. 6 minutes ago, Aldarion said: It is true that they don't understand the danger, but for the nth time, Westerosi soldiers are not just conscripted peasants. Even if they are, they do not behave the way conscripted peasants should. These are, effectively, professional soldiers. LOL, I'm sure they are well prepared to fight undead hordes in light of their 'professionalism'. But I didn't want to trigger you there, I just wanted to point out the economic basics of Westerosi society and its 'military'. Ser Waymar Royce was trained as a professional and he held his ground against one Other. Gared, who was an actual professional soldier, broke and run and 99 of 100 'soldiers' should follow his example once they actually see that wights and ice demons are real and the Wall is no more. 6 minutes ago, Aldarion said: Yes, that would be a realistic ending. Realistic ending for every single winter Westeros goes through, that is - nothing to do with the Others. Nah, this time winter will be full of monsters and should also come with a night that never ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 5 hours ago, Aldarion said: You do that, you might as well have an army of pink unicorns descend from the heavens to wipe out the Others. There, problem solved, now everybody can live happily ever after! Well at least the bronies would like this solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 11 hours ago, Lord Varys said: LOL, I'm sure they are well prepared to fight undead hordes in light of their 'professionalism'. But I didn't want to trigger you there, I just wanted to point out the economic basics of Westerosi society and its 'military'. Economic basics of Westerosi society is feudalism, which should really be impossible even with ten-year winters. As for military, they are about as professional as normal feudal army would be: https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/proof-that-westerosi-armies-are-professionals/ Whenever we actually see conscripts in the books, they break fast and they break hard. Westerosi armies never do - they do break on occasion, but it takes a lot of shock for that to happen. Sure, they may not be Black Army of Hungary, but they are not conscripted peasants either. 11 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Ser Waymar Royce was trained as a professional and he held his ground against one Other. Gared, who was an actual professional soldier, broke and run and 99 of 100 'soldiers' should follow his example once they actually see that wights and ice demons are real and the Wall is no more. Your description implies basically that Westerosi knights have higher morale than members of the organization that I believe you yourself have called the only professional military in Westeros. It rather defeats the point you are trying to make. 11 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Nah, this time winter will be full of monsters and should also come with a night that never ends. Ten year long winters, mate. Monsters would realistically be the least of problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Re, transportation, there’s an item on Bret Devereaux’s blog that’s relevant. Even in this day and age, long distance transport by sea is vastly cheaper and easier than long distance transport by land or air. For the cost of transporting a truck load of goods by lorry, across the USA, you can transport the same quantity of goods by ship, to any destination in the world. In this world, without petrol-driven vehicles, no railways or refrigerators, no air transport other than dragon, ships are the only means to transport people and military supplies over long distances. It’s why the marching routes of armies are predictable. They need the sea, or a navigable river, on the route of march. SaffronLady, Aldarion and wiedzma 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) The issues with the travelling of whatever forces dany chooses to bring are posibly solved once she wins slavers bay. The volantis military fleet and ironborn cant take her as they are packed with fighters anyway BUT if volantis falls to slaves fanatical to dany its got probably.10x the number of merchant ships as it has military to transport them plus theres the ships that brought the new ghis legions ...with bloody flux run riot in their ranks they wont need them anymore The downside is quarth....loss of their small camel squad or not they have 0.reason to let danys naval forces or troop/horse carriers pass the jade gates , they.protect the gates supposedly with giant ornate galleys....unless theres a slave uprising in quarth shes staying in slavers bay Edited January 13 by astarkchoice Aldarion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, SeanF said: Re, transportation, there’s an item on Bret Devereaux’s blog that’s relevant. Even in this day and age, long distance transport by sea is vastly cheaper and easier than long distance transport by land or air. For the cost of transporting a truck load of goods by lorry, across the USA, you can transport the same quantity of goods by ship, to any destination in the world. In this world, without petrol-driven vehicles, no railways or refrigerators, no air transport other than dragon, ships are the only means to transport people and military supplies over long distances. It’s why the marching routes of armies are predictable. They need the sea, or a navigable river, on the route of march. Exactly. 28 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: The issues with the travelling of whatever forces dany chooses to bring are posibly solved once she wins slavers bay. The volantis military fleet and ironborn cant take her as they are packed with fighters anyway BUT if volantis falls to slaves fanatical to dany its got probably.10x the number of merchant ships as it has military to transport them plus theres the ships that brought the new ghis legions ...with bloody flux run riot in their ranks they wont need them anymore The downside is quarth....loss of their small camel squad or not they have 0.reason to let danys naval forces or troop/horse carriers pass the jade gates , they.protect the gates supposedly with giant ornate galleys....unless theres a slave uprising in quarth shes staying in slavers bay Yes, she will be able to bring her army with her. By sea. But this: 21 hours ago, Lord Varys said: The demon road is merely the direct way west. Once Dany has the Dothraki she would move them (and perhaps others) west overland through the Dothraki Sea and then by ways of Pentos and Myr to Westeros. Bolded part is IMPOSSIBLE. Not unlikely, not implausible, IMPOSSIBLE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, Aldarion said: Exactly. Yes, she will be able to bring her army with her. By sea. But this: Bolded part is IMPOSSIBLE. Not unlikely, not implausible, IMPOSSIBLE. https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/25/mapping-the-journey-of-daenerys-targaryen/ Yep ..heres a reminder of the distances. Taking an army marching across the dothraki sea will take ages, shit even sailing to slavers bay from westeros takes months! Edited January 13 by astarkchoice Aldarion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 37 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/25/mapping-the-journey-of-daenerys-targaryen/ Yep ..heres a reminder of the distances. Taking an army marching across the dothraki sea will take ages, shit even sailing to slavers bay from westeros takes months! More importantly, Dothraki Sea is a sea of grass. There is nothing to eat there except animals that you bring with yourself or manage to hunt down. That is why Free Cities have not wiped out the Dothraki: an army that relies on resupply and on drawn carts to feed itself (which is all armies of settled societies) simply cannot go into the Dothraki Sea. Not because Dothraki will wipe them out, but because they will die of hunger. wiedzma and astarkchoice 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) A Dothraki army alone was enough to worry Robert Baratheon and with good reasons. Robert would know because he was a veteran of many battles. He knew what would happen. They, meaning the militaries of Westeros, will turn tail and make for the nearest castle all the while soiling their pants in fright. They are simply not going to be able to fight a warrior army like the Dothraki. Let's be realistic. Daenerys is not going to just bring the Khalasars to Westeros. She will have Unsullied (the very best army in that world), former slaves who are undergoing military training (and who will get battle experience very soon) to become loyal soldiers, Vic's ships, mercenaries, etc. It will be a total wipe out of any idiot who would choose to resist the Targaryen restoration. I doubt Daenerys would choose to wipe out any of the Houses unless they leave her no other choice. But people, even the Baratheons, are practical enough to bow to the dragon as their fathers have done so in the past. The only ones who would rather die than become Targaryen subjects again will be people like the Starks and Euron. I would be glad to see them end up on the worse end of a Field Of Fire 2. Asha Greyjoy and Euron have an appointment at sea. She will be the one who will have to go to war with her dear uncle. Daenerys will deal with the Starks. It might not come to a fight as long as the Starks act uncharacteristically reasonable. That means somebody other than Jon will have to speak for the Starks. Edited January 14 by Here's Looking At You, Kid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 19 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said: A Dothraki army alone was enough to worry Robert Baratheon and with good reasons. Robert would know because he was a veteran of many battles. He knew what would happen. They, meaning the militaries of Westeros, will turn tail and make for the nearest castle all the while soiling their pants in fright. They are simply not going to be able to fight a warrior army like the Dothraki. Let's be realistic. Daenerys is not going to just bring the Khalasars to Westeros. She will have Unsullied (the very best army in that world), former slaves who are undergoing military training (and who will get battle experience very soon) to become loyal soldiers, Vic's ships, mercenaries, etc. It will be a total wipe out of any idiot who would choose to resist the Targaryen restoration. I doubt Daenerys would choose to wipe out any of the Houses unless they leave her no other choice. But people, even the Baratheons, are practical enough to bow to the dragon as their fathers have done so in the past. The only ones who would rather die than become Targaryen subjects again will be people like the Starks and Euron. I would be glad to see them end up on the worse end of a Field Of Fire 2. Asha Greyjoy and Euron have an appointment at sea. She will be the one who will have to go to war with her dear uncle. Daenerys will deal with the Starks. It might not come to a fight as long as the Starks act uncharacteristically reasonable. That means somebody other than Jon will have to speak for the Starks. No robert was worried the targs would link up with former loyalists like the reach , their blood kin ruling dorne , various loyalists possibly all over westeros (esp around the crownlands) AND the dothraki on top of the clear support the targ kids seemed to have in essos to make the drogo marriage happen hinting at rich free city support. The khalassars would be a nightmare to transport and are a poor mans version of the huns/mongols or in this settling the dornish cavalry! The unsullied are barely7k men , the slaves are untrained and will need weapons + armour as well as drilling and as for mercs shes got less of them than the unsullied right now Aldarion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 On 1/12/2024 at 2:43 PM, Aldarion said: Dothraki survive because they are nomads, with all that implies: small population, high mobility, and massive amounts of cattle (even if we only see horses). But for people of Meereen etc. to survive the trek through the Dothraki Sea, hell for her armies to survive the trek, Daenaerys would have to spend decades turning her people into horse nomads before she can even think of travelling through the Sea. We have the answer in the books. He didn’t bother responding to me for a reason Aldarion and astarkchoice 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) Bottom line there are too few to be anything larger than an oversized bodyguard detail now. Overall im.not sure dany is even comming to westeros ! Maybe one of her spare dragons (only drogo is fully bonded enough to ride) will fly and bond to jon targ/snow and help him melt the ice demons etc. In reality it seems like dany would be far far bettrr suited to sit in meeren and build a new valyrain empire from there! She should as instructed go to asshai to recover lost dragon lore to begin with Edited January 15 by astarkchoice Aldarion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 On 1/12/2024 at 2:40 AM, astarkchoice said: Erm You do remmber the dornish have been fighting with similar tactics to the dothraki for centuries right? The westerosi have seen their tactics On their small sand steeds they have reportedly recurve bows and swords but also armour, small shields, spears, a mix of heavy cavalry and various foot too.......they are actualy more like the hun/mongols militarywise than the dothraki Now the dornish have held their own vs all other westerosi outside of dorne but.... their horse cavalry have all those other factors to help them. Drone is not a powerful kingdom. So the Martells are not going to survive a Dothraki invasion. Yeah, the Dornish men will run for the mountains and hide and pray to their gods for the Dothraki to get bored and leave. But the Dothraki with Dany leading them will not give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, The Commentator said: On 1/12/2024 at 7:40 AM, astarkchoice said: Erm You do remmber the dornish have been fighting with similar tactics to the dothraki for centuries right? The westerosi have seen their tactics On their small sand steeds they have reportedly recurve bows and swords but also armour, small shields, spears, a mix of heavy cavalry and various foot too.......they are actualy more like the hun/mongols militarywise than the dothraki Now the dornish have held their own vs all other westerosi outside of dorne but.... their horse cavalry have all those other factors to help them. Drone is not a powerful kingdom. So the Martells are not going to survive a Dothraki invasion. Yeah, the Dornish men will run for the mountains and hide and pray to their gods for the Dothraki to get bored and leave. But the Dothraki with Dany leading them will not give up. Hmmm you seem.to have added your resonse to my quote there. My point was that dorne has fielded forces who fight similar (but better)to the dothraki so they wont be any kind of huge shock. On top of that there is a large flux of mercs back and forth between essos and westeros sharing combat knowledge of the east with them. Aldarion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 2 hours ago, The Commentator said: On 1/12/2024 at 7:40 AM, astarkchoice said: Erm You do remmber the dornish have been fighting with similar tactics to the dothraki for centuries right? The westerosi have seen their tactics On their small sand steeds they have reportedly recurve bows and swords but also armour, small shields, spears, a mix of heavy cavalry and various foot too.......they are actualy more like the hun/mongols militarywise than the dothraki Now the dornish have held their own vs all other westerosi outside of dorne but.... their horse cavalry have all those other factors to help them. Drone is not a powerful kingdom. So the Martells are not going to survive a Dothraki invasion. Yeah, the Dornish men will run for the mountains and hide and pray to their gods for the Dothraki to get bored and leave. But the Dothraki with Dany leading them will not give up. Expand Explain how Dothraki are supposed to survive in a desert for any real length of time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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