Sansa is slowly killing Sweetrobin

[SeanF]

It all depends how far Martin decides to go in plumbing the darkest depths of human nature.

Perhaps the endgame is Dany as vicious tyrant;  Arya as dead-eyed assassin;  Sansa as murderous hypocrite;  Bran as manipulator;  Jon as undead horror.

[Darth Sidious]

On 3/16/2024 at 6:25 PM, JoyfulJoy said:

God Dang, why is there so much people here thinking Sansa is gungho for killing Robert Arryn? Like yes she made mistakes especially as a child, but since when was that means she's going to kill a freaking child?

Sansa is administering higher doses of sleep “medication” that are increasingly dangerous. While Sansa is very far from smart, she is aware of the danger to the helpless child. 

[JoyfulJoy]

No offensive, but who are you are? Are you just apart of a group or alt accounts, I really do not want to offend, but I don't get on who you and your friends are.

[Universal Sword Donor]

15 hours ago, JoyfulJoy said:

No offensive, but who are you are? Are you just apart of a group or alt accounts, I really do not want to offend, but I don't get on who you and your friends are.

Are you talking to anyone in specific, in general, or the poster immediately preceding you?

[the trees have eyes]

17 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Sansa is administering higher doses of sleep “medication” that are increasingly dangerous. While Sansa is very far from smart, she is aware of the danger to the helpless child. 

When does she do this? 

[JoyfulJoy]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Are you talking to anyone in specific, in general, or the poster immediately preceding you?

Sorry, I was talking to the person above me, I thought it was kind of obvious, but I should have been more clear as it's the internet and they can't see me looking at someone.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

When does she do this? 

She doesn't order higher doses, but she does order additional doses with the implication there will probably be more. So with the sweet sleep not leaving the flesh, it will have a more detrimental effect.

[the trees have eyes]

6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

She doesn't order higher doses, but she does order additional doses with the implication there will probably be more. So with the sweet sleep not leaving the flesh, it will have a more detrimental effect.

When does she order or administer additional doses?

[Universal Sword Donor]

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

When does she order or administer additional doses?

The exact quotes are a page or two back but once in the eyrie for the descent and then two more at gates of the moon (?) for the feast and when he meets his banner man. Then when the maester tells her no more for at least six months she says “we’ll see what my dad says” and drops the mic. 

Edited March 22 by Universal Sword Donor

[the trees have eyes]

10 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The exact quotes are a page or two back but once in the eyrie for the descent and then two more at gates of the moon (?) for the feast and when he meets his banner man. Then when the maester tells her no more for at least six months she says “we’ll see what my dad says” and drops the mic. 

As far as I can see there is one conversation at The Eyrie about getting Robert Arryn down the mountain and through the subsequent feast/dinner without a shaking fit.  You are correct that Sansa advocates for a cup of sweetmilk before the descent and a second before the dinner but this is a total of two doses.  Something which Colemon agrees to it must be noted, if reluctantly, which hardly sets an alarm bell ringing that this is poisoning him.  It's a medical treatment with side effects that confer risks that don't appear to outweigh the benefits to her non-medical mind.  The dosage is of course left to Colemon.  Does he receive the second dose and what if any is Sansa's involvement beyond the suggestion at The Eyrie that morning?

Colemon says there must be no more for at least half a year after this and she says he will have to take it up with her father but that last remark invites the understanding that it would be conditional on circumstances arising where sweetmilk would be necessary or advocated for rather than administered as a routine prescription dose.  If his fits get worse and he injures himself they may have to decide on treatment vs no treatment despite the greater risk of administering it.  No one can predict the future and events may force a choice to be made.

I really don't see this as evidence of Sansa deliberately embarking on a programme of upping the frequency and dosage of his medication despite being warned against it - as the poster I originally eye-rolled at presented it as.  I see why some people project this forward to see Sansa becoming LF's protégé "Alayne" in truth or perhaps an independent yet darker version of herself but this is conjecture for the future not something to be presented in the present tense.

[Darth Sidious]

On 3/21/2024 at 1:31 PM, the trees have eyes said:

When does she do this? 

It is from a scene where Sansa was informed of the dangers of giving the boy more of the sedating drug. She decides to proceed while knowing the danger. She knowingly endangers the life of the child.

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, Darth Sidious said:

It is from a scene where Sansa was informed of the dangers of giving the boy more of the sedating drug. She decides to proceed while knowing the danger. She knowingly endangers the life of the child.

As already explained, the context is one in which SR had to negotiate descending an extremely steep and treacherous mountain path on a mule and then cross a narrow ice bridge with no sides without having a fit and throwing himself down the mountain to his death. The danger of not making it down alive was far far greater than the danger of administering sweetsleep one more time. NOT to give him a dose would be to endanger his life. It was, if you like, a no-win situation, and she chose preserving his life in the short term over possibly risking his life later on.

[Universal Sword Donor]

11 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

As already explained, the context is one in which SR had to negotiate descending an extremely steep and treacherous mountain path on a mule and then cross a narrow ice bridge with no sides without having a fit and throwing himself down the mountain to his death. The danger of not making it down alive was far far greater than the danger of administering sweetsleep one more time. NOT to give him a dose would be to endanger his life. It was, if you like, a no-win situation, and she chose preserving his life in the short term over possibly risking his life later on.

And that nuance rendered moot when she tells him to administer more later that night or soon thereafter.

[the trees have eyes]

14 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

It is from a scene where Sansa was informed of the dangers of giving the boy more of the sedating drug. She decides to proceed while knowing the danger. She knowingly endangers the life of the child.

My man, read the passages again and show me where Colemon tells Sansa that giving Robert sweetsleep is endangering his life.  What he tells her is that "it remains in the flesh" and that he must not be prescribed more until six months have elapsed, after the two doses which he agrees to, sets the dosage of and administers himself.  This after he has questioned Sansa on Robert's physical condition - nosebleeds - to determine whether it is safe to administer these two doses.  Presumably he reviews Robert's physical condition before the feast to decide whether the second dose is safe or even necessary at all.

What Sansa knows is that sweetsleep has both benefits and side effects.  What a thirteen year old knows of the dangers is what Maester Colemon tells her, which is precious little, other than that they must be careful not to administer too much or too often.

To say she knowingly endangers his life is wrong.  To say so while ignoring her leading him over the ice bridge on the descent that same day is myopic.

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

And that nuance rendered moot when she tells him to administer more later that night or soon thereafter.

It's really not.  He warns vaguely of side effects but not specifics and not clearly and he agrees to two doses, saying there must be no more after that for six months.  If it's going to risk killing him Colemon would come right out and say it, surely? 

If on the other hand you subscribe to the view that Colemon knows he is killing him then by all means argue that Colemon doesn't want to implicate himself and suspects that "Alayne" is in on it too but pretending ignorance so Colemon can be framed for doing it while the instigators, LF / "Alayne"', plead ignorance and assert that he is the maester responsible for Robert's care.  In other words they are dancing round each other in this scene.

But from her pov what she knows of sweetsleep and how it works (hell, what we know) is very little, nothing at all really until Colemon gives a veiled and partial disclosure.  Thirteen year old Sansa, given the responsibility of getting Robert down the mountain and looking his best for his bannermen, has a powerful medicine that can help with all that and some vague warnings about not prescribing too much or too often - and a maester who agrees to two doses rather than telling her he won't do that because of a lethal risk to Robert.

If he ever tells her that then there's a conversation to be had.  But right now it's like milk of the poppy, something to be given in certain circumstamnces but not too much or too often.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's really not.  He warns vaguely of side effects but not specifics and not clearly and he agrees to two doses, saying there must be no more after that for six months.  If it's going to risk killing him Colemon would come right out and say it, surely? 

He's forced to dose the kid against his will and then, when delivering an ultimatum, the response we get is "We'll see what your boss says." Colemon is bartering with people far more powerful than him. And more to the point, she doesn't give any option of back talk. She immediately leaves the room he's in and tells herself she and LF have larger concerns than the boy in the same chapter that LF tells her to be careful around Myranda Royce, which she repeats to herself multiple times. 

She clearly thinks the longer term effects on SR are worth the short term safety for herself.

[the trees have eyes]

23 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He's forced to dose the kid against his will and then, when delivering an ultimatum, the response we get is "We'll see what your boss says." Colemon is bartering with people far more powerful than him. And more to the point, she doesn't give any option of back talk. She immediately leaves the room he's in and tells herself she and LF have larger concerns than the boy in the same chapter that LF tells her to be careful around Myranda Royce, which she repeats to herself multiple times. 

She clearly thinks the longer term effects on SR are worth the short term safety for herself.

She doesn't understand the long term effects on Robert (and nor do we) as they aren't explained beyond "it remains in the flesh".  She clearly believes the unspecified risk to him is outweighed by the short term benefit of getting him down the mountain (and a possible second dose to get him through the feast).  She clearly understands the importance of him getting down the mountain alive and not having a fit in front of his bannermen (from whom he is all but hidden at The Eyrie in the normal course of events) but at no point in any of this is she dosing him because she feels threatened and sees dosing him a way of keeping herself safe.  And her safety relies on keeping him alive and LF in power as his protector, surely.

Colemon can refuse and say it's too risky and then explain why.  If she told him to give Robert The Tears of Lys or The Strangler he would say no.  It's true that he agrees against his better judgment because he understands the medical risks and she doesn't but he does agree.  She leaves after he agrees to two doses, the point he makes is there must be no further doses after that for a period of six months.  And no one is there to guide his hand to administer it.  If he really thinks it's too dangerous he can opt not to.

In terms of short term safety for herself I suppose, yes, you could argue that she would not have got him across the ice bridge without fitting without sweetsleep so she was percipient to push Colemon for the first dose.  Otherwise they would both be dead.  That's the kind of circumstance that might warrant a further does of sweetsleep within six months despite Colemon's warnings.  What happens in this hypothetical situation is all in the future.

Beyond that I guess we'll agree to disagree.