Sansa is slowly killing Sweetrobin

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

SR is easily another example of the tram problem. Is killing a mentally challenged 7 year old acceptable, when compared to letting him grow into a mentally challenged adult who has the near-absolute final say in tens of thousands of lives? Could he be tutored (or just functionally suspended) into using that power reliably?

Note I'm not saying responsibly - epileptics have good days. But then the sickness hits, and SR's suddenly not quite right. That might not be the best overlord to live under.

I say yes. In fact, I think it wouldn't take that long. I taught a mentally challenged 7 year old. When she entered my class, she was spoiled, scared, and generally a constant problem. It honestly wasn't that hard to turn her around. She just wanted attention, and a set group of rules to help her understand the guidelines. She didn't understand things as well as other students, and she just need patience, love, and above all, understanding. Sweetrobin was taught by a horrible parent. He is not horrible because he i smentally challenged. He is horrible because Lysa Tully (her own trauma regardless) is honestly up there in these books for one of the most self-centered, selfish, and above all, unfair/unjust rulers out there. It's just...she doesn't do anything with her power, so we don't think about it that much. But in the limited use of her power, she is a tyrant, and she was training Sweetrobin to be tyrant. He is 7 though. He can be untrained, and like I siad, it isn't that hard. It took me like a month. Young kids are super impressionable. My biggest issue is that parents undo my good work. But his parent is dead. She can't argue with Sansa. Sansa can be his primary source for what he sees as right and wrong in the world. She can change him. 100%. 

And no, this isn't the tram problem. At all. Same as Joffrey could have been okay. Or Viserys. Horrible parenting/upbringing being ignored in favor of blaming some innate badness...is...frankly just wrong. I have dedicated my life to that belief by the way. And my mom worked in social work her entire life and raised me to ABSOLUTELY and totally believe in this way of thinking. I believe that circumstance, and not nature is responsible for both sides of the awfulness of our society (corrupt leaders and crime from the poor). Training the rich to be arrogant and abuse their power (ie. telling your son he can fling someone to their death when they displease him) or giving people limited options for advancement (ie. the broken man speech in the Brienne chapter). The tram problem assumes that we are on a certain set of tracks. And no, Sweetrobin's life is not on that track at all. He just needs guidance. Parenting. 

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

And no, this isn't the tram problem. At all. Same as Joffrey could have been okay. Or Viserys. Horrible parenting/upbringing being ignored in favor of blaming some innate badness...is...frankly just wrong. I have dedicated my life to that belief by the way. And my mom worked in social work her entire life and raised me to ABSOLUTELY and totally believe in this way of thinking. I believe that circumstance, and not nature is responsible for both sides of the awfulness of our society (corrupt leaders and crime from the poor). Training the rich to be arrogant and abuse their power (ie. telling your son he can fling someone to their death when they displease him) or giving people limited options for advancement (ie. the broken man speech in the Brienne chapter). The tram problem assumes that we are on a certain set of tracks. And no, Sweetrobin's life is not on that track at all. He just needs guidance. Parenting. 

You make very rational and humane points, and I'm grateful that people like you and your mom exist in the world.

I only want to say that the fantasy fiction angle needs as much attention as reality-based ones. It is possible in GRRM's world that Joffrey was born bad, like a Targ whose nature was a coin tossed by the gods, spinning in the air. It is possible that Patchface's madness came with the gift of true prophecy. It's possible that SR has a destiny that can't be changed.

Actually SR looks pretty normal to me. His problem is that the people around him are all pretty clueless about nature and nurture and have no confidence in any fixing.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

You make very rational and humane points, and I'm grateful that people like you and your mom exist in the world.

I only want to say that the fantasy fiction angle needs as much attention as reality-based ones. It is possible in GRRM's world that Joffrey was born bad, like a Targ whose nature was a coin tossed by the gods, spinning in the air. It is possible that Patchface's madness came with the gift of true prophecy. It's possible that SR has a destiny that can't be changed.

Actually SR looks pretty normal to me. His problem is that the people around him are all pretty clueless about nature and nurture and have no confidence in any fixing.

Eh, I think GRRM PURPOSELY puts in those kind of beliefs that humans have, not that he believes in them. I think he constantly undermines these points. I think a more obvious, but less telling example, is everyone calling Renly frivolous or all show/no substance all the time, but what we actually see of Renly, in my opinion, constantly undermines that being true. Those characters are just homophobic, and they are expressing their homophobia. The same thing for the idea that Joffrey (or another character) are born bad. I think it's just prejudice. It's just the common mindset of the society he has created, and not what GRRM actually thinks. Or for a more obvious example. Bastards. GRRM constantly breaks this one down, so it's much easier for us to deconstruct it...but that doesn't mean other socially expected prejudices...aren't just as much bullshit.  

Isn't there a famous quote from GRRM about "magic isn't the solution" or something like that. I think he kind of directly, himself, counteracts the idea that he would write in this way (and I just personally don't think he does...at all. I think he understands human nature on a pretty good level, particularly prejudice, and he does an excellent job of weaving it realistically into the story). 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[SaffronLady]

12 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

The tram problem assumes that we are on a certain set of tracks.

This is going in my quotes notebook.

12 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Same as Joffrey could have been okay.

Sometimes I like to think Jaime could have been a Harwin Breakbones and been the father figure Joff clearly needed if Cersei's comments could be trusted. Jace Velaryon seemed quite a good boy.

12 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Young kids are super impressionable. My biggest issue is that parents undo my good work. But his parent is dead. She can't argue with Sansa. Sansa can be his primary source for what he sees as right and wrong in the world. She can change him. 100%.

If Sansa manages to change SR through all the meddling that would no doubt occur (LF, for one), that might tie into her having a "power awakening" (Arya going across the sea, Jon becoming LCNW).

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Eh, I think GRRM PURPOSELY puts in those kind of beliefs that humans have, not that he believes in them. I think he constantly undermines these points.

Well, tainted blood, or magical king's blood is certainly a belief, but at this stage seems more likely to be part of GRRM's system of magic. Only time will tell.

But right now, Patchface's gift of prophecy is not a belief of any character, but is well supported by the text.

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think a more obvious, but less telling example, is everyone calling Renly frivolous or all show/no substance all the time, but what we actually see of Renly, in my opinion, constantly undermines that being true. Those characters are just homophobic, and they are expressing their homophobia. The same thing for the idea that Joffrey (or another character) are born bad. I think it's just prejudice. It's just the common mindset of the society he has created, and not what GRRM actually thinks. Or for a more obvious example. Bastards. GRRM constantly breaks this one down, so it's much easier for us to deconstruct it...but that doesn't mean other socially expected prejudices...aren't just as much bullshit.  

I'm not expecting any homophobe, sexist or slaver to end the story in a happy place, for sure, but this isn't a simple morality tale. We have Jon, who breaks the bastard prejudice, but also Ramsay who upholds it (Ramsay is definitely an outlier, but a very prominent one).

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Isn't there a famous quote from GRRM about "magic isn't the solution" or something like that. I think he kind of directly, himself, counteracts the idea that he would write in this way (and I just personally don't think he does...at all. I think he understands human nature on a pretty good level, particularly prejudice, and he does an excellent job of weaving it realistically into the story). 

I heard that quote too, but what it suggests to me is that magic could be the problem. No magic (or insignificant magic) isn't really an option after GRRM opened the series with two undeniable, massively magical elements: Waymar getting wighted by the Others, and Bran's statement of the unnatural seasons. That first book ends with the birth of dragons too. So there's no room to complain if GRRM puts a ton of magic in his plots - he set the rules at the beginning.

I agree with your point that GRRM is pretty good at writing realistic plots and characters, but I also see a lot of material on supernatural mind control (at great scale and distance), along with ideas on the nature of power (e.g. Varys' riddle), on puppeteers and strings, on mummers and players and cyvasse, and - the one I'm thinking of now - god's instruments. I think it's very likely that the weakest, 'maddest' characters are touched by the gods - a very ancient idea, though to be sure in this case the gods are likely to be an illusion over a crazy psychic hive mind or similar. Brace yourself.

 

[SeanF]

Regarding magic not being the solution, I think it’s similar to Tolkien.  It’s bad storytelling to solve problems via magic.  It’s more compelling if they’re solved by brain and brawn.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Look back on Sansa's past. 

Very well.  Sansa is not smart BUT she's not evil.  She's not mean-spirited.  The teasing she did to Arya and calling her HORSEFACE doesn't count as mean-spirited to me.  I give Sansa credit for compassion.  She had compassion for Dontos.  But I'm afraid she might murder Sweetrobin if Littlefinger and Harry tells her to.  She could do it because love screws with Sansa's mind and Harry could demand this of her. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Skahaz mo Kandaq

[Hippocras]

On 10/13/2023 at 7:11 AM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Look back on Sansa's past. 

Very well.  Sansa is not smart BUT she's not evil.  She's not mean-spirited.  The teasing she did to Arya and calling her HORSEFACE doesn't count as mean-spirited to me.  I give Sansa credit for compassion.  She had compassion for Dontos.  But I'm afraid she might murder Sweetrobin if Littlefinger and Harry tells her to.  She could do it because love screws with Sansa's mind and Harry could demand this of her. 

I don't see her falling in love with Harry, sorry.

She may find him sexy, have a bit of a crush, but that is as far as it goes. He is a child compared to her, mentally, just playing at knighthood and dreaming of glory with none of the deeply transformative experiences she has had. Grown women do not fall in love with children and they definitely do not murder for them.

[Aldarion]

On 9/29/2023 at 6:56 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I believe that circumstance, and not nature is responsible for both sides of the awfulness of our society (corrupt leaders and crime from the poor).

Nature and nurture both, and merely focusing on one is incorrect. Are our leaders psychopaths because they are leaders, or are psychopaths leaders because psychopaths are better at manipulating people? Likewise, merely being poor is not necessarily enough to turn one to crime, but there too there is also a question of upbringing.

[Gilbert Green]

On 9/29/2023 at 11:44 AM, SaffronLady said:

Is killing a mentally challenged 7 year old acceptable ....

NO!

[M.Alhazred]

Bigger question is will Sansa go through with it? 

[Darth Sidious]

22 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

NO!

It is not. I dislike Catelyn for murdering Jinglebells. 

[SaffronLady]

16 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

It is not. I dislike Catelyn for murdering Jinglebells. 

You mean taking a hostage when her own son's life is at risk and killing said hostage when her son is murdered right in front of her eyes? Wow, what a horrible person Catelyn is.

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

You mean taking a hostage when her own son's life is at risk and killing said hostage when her son is murdered right in front of her eyes? Wow, what a horrible person Catelyn is.

Not guilty by reason of temporary insanity, maybe.  But that's only an excuse, not a justification.  If she could help herself, what she did was wrong.  And no good will come from it. 

[SaffronLady]

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Not guilty by reason of temporary insanity, maybe.  But that's only an excuse, not a justification.  If she could help herself, what she did was wrong.  And no good will come from it. 

We'll see if any good could come of slaughtering your guests' entire family by looking at the Freys.

[JoyfulJoy]

God Dang, why is there so much people here thinking Sansa is gungho for killing Robert Arryn? Like yes she made mistakes especially as a child, but since when was that means she's going to kill a freaking child?

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, JoyfulJoy said:

God Dang, why is there so much people here thinking Sansa is gungho for killing Robert Arryn? Like yes she made mistakes especially as a child, but since when was that means she's going to kill a freaking child?

Nobody likes Sweetrobin. And, following the show, quite a few people view Sansa as a kind of young Lady Macbeth.

Edited March 17 by SeanF

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 3/16/2024 at 6:25 PM, JoyfulJoy said:

God Dang, why is there so much people here thinking Sansa is gungho for killing Robert Arryn? Like yes she made mistakes especially as a child, but since when was that means she's going to kill a freaking child?

I’ve already put my $.02 in here but her POV chapters make it quite clear that she’s fond of him but willing to do harmful things to him in the short term to protect LF and herself (since those go hand in hand for now). 
 

So she might do something that poisons him or or even kills him but it’s driven by self preservation vs any desire to kill the boy.

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I’ve already put my $.02 in here but her POV chapters make it quite clear that she’s fond of him but willing to do harmful things to him in the short term to protect LF and herself (since those go hand in hand for now). 
 

So she might do something that poisons him or or even kills him but it’s driven by self preservation vs any desire to kill the boy.

It doesn't have to be intentional. LF and the maester have been chronically overprescribing him sweetsleep for a while now. They (or at least LF) may have led her to believe too much is good for the kid's epilepsy, and she still naively trusts him. She may innocently administer the final dose.

[JoyfulJoy]

On 3/16/2024 at 11:59 PM, SeanF said:

Nobody likes Sweetrobin. And, following the show, quite a few people view Sansa as a kind of young Lady Macbeth.

Sweetrobin may be a brat, and I would say he's unlikable-but he's been coddled by his mother his entire life, of course he's going to turn out wrong, he's still a child.