HOTD Musings

[$erPounce]

23 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe they plan on changing Daeron’s story and making him a dragonseed? Or some random Targ cousin? We need more leaks.

Very unlikely. Daeron is already listed as Alicent's youngest son in the official family tree of the HBO show. He will not become a dragonseed. https://www.hbo.com/house-of-the-dragon/character-guide

Instead, with the splitting of season 2 into two shorter seasons, it is likely that the showrunners have changed the chronology of events a bit, so Daeron will probably make his appearance later in the show (just like the assault on Harrenhal will happen only after the fight above Shipbreaker Bay in the show canon).

Edited October 2, 2023 by $erPounce

[The Bard of Banefort]

Perhaps he was cast and then had to drop out for some reason?

It’s surprising that we have so few set leaks. HOTD doesn’t have the same obsessive media apparatus looking for any minor detail to reveal that GOT did, but still, I thought we would know more than we do now based on all the outdoor scenes.

[The Bard of Banefort]

47 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

We thought Jack Cunningham-Nuttal was playing as Daeron, considering he follows actors Olivia, Fabien and Leo Ashton on Instagram as well as the image of a plush of Tessarion that he posted. But now there are doubts. A friend of the actor says it is not true. It is possible that Daeron will be played by another actor or will not appear until season 3. It is certain, however, that he will be mentioned in season 2:

 

Where is Alicent’s fourth child Daeron? This is something that a lot of fans have been wondering. Why has no one even mentioned him at this point?

Ryan Condal: He does exist. No worries, everybody. He’s the youngest son. He’s warded off at Oldtown to Hobert Hightower and soon to Ormond Hightower, who is Hobert’s nephew, who becomes Lord of Oldtown. Honestly, this stuff happened all the time in this world. It’s not our modern day where if you had a 6-year-old, you would FaceTime them every day and see how they’re doing and write letters. He’s there. That’s the fact. When he is relevant to be mentioned — and he will be — he will be mentioned.

 

Perhaps Jack Cunningham-Nuttal was just trying to troll us fans, just like Lena Headey's tease of Lady Stoneheart and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's tease of Rolly Duckfield years back. Both characters never appeared in Game of Thrones.

(By the looks of it, this news was already posted, I didn't see that)

When was this interview with Condal?

[$erPounce]

13 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

When was this interview with Condal?

October 2022: https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/house-of-the-dragon-finale-explained-aemond-luke-rhaenrya-daemon-season-2-1235412136

44 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s surprising that we have so few set leaks. HOTD doesn’t have the same obsessive media apparatus looking for any minor detail to reveal that GOT did, but still, I thought we would know more than we do now based on all the outdoor scenes.

Sorry, I disagree. On the contrary, I think quite a lot of set leaks happened for HOTD season 2. Although not all of them are posted here. Still, much remains unclear.

I think a greater media attention that Game of Thrones set leaks got is mainly because the ASOIAF books were not done yet. People often used the GOT show as a basis for some predictions of what will happen in the books. That's not the case now. We know how the Dance of the Dragons ends.

Moreover, I also have the impression that even among book readers, Fire & Blood is much less popular and discussed than ASOIAF itself on fan sites. Consequently, the television adaptation will also receive less attention.

[The Bard of Banefort]

25 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

October 2022: https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/house-of-the-dragon-finale-explained-aemond-luke-rhaenrya-daemon-season-2-1235412136

They did a big rewrite towards the beginning of the year, right? So it's possible that they altered Daeron's story a bit. If he's still listed on the family tree though, then I agree that he'll still be included as one of Alicent's sons.

26 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

Sorry, I disagree. On the contrary, I think quite a lot of set leaks happened for HOTD season 2. Although not all of them are posted here. Still, much remains unclear.

I think a greater media attention that Game of Thrones set leaks got is mainly because the ASOIAF books were not done yet. People often used the GOT show as a basis for some predictions of what will happen in the books. That's not the case now. We know how the Dance of the Dragons ends.

Moreover, I also have the impression that even among book readers, Fire & Blood is much less popular and discussed than ASOIAF itself on fan sites. Consequently, the television adaptation will also receive less attention.

Maybe this didn't happen until closer to the premiere, but a highly detailed outline of S1 leaked before HOTD debuted. That happened a few times with GOT too, notably S7. I'm guessing whoever was responsible for that got the boot.

[$erPounce]

25 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe this didn't happen until closer to the premiere, but a highly detailed outline of S1 leaked before HOTD debuted. That happened a few times with GOT too, notably S7. I'm guessing whoever was responsible for that got the boot.

Yes, there was an outline of HOTD season 1, which I saw when someone posted it on Reddit. That one was circulating on various platforms for months before, apparently. HBO definitely wants to prevent that from happening again now.

What I found most striking is that the outline was very accurate. Some sentences were taken right from the script. Even deleted scenes that we know exist were described. Still, there were some striking differences. For example, I saw no mention of Rhaenys interrupting Aegon's coronation in the Dragonpit before escaping. Perhaps the descriptions are based on an older version of the script, or the leaker withheld some things.

[The Bard of Banefort]

32 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

Yes, there was an outline of HOTD season 1, which I saw when someone posted it on Reddit. That one was circulating on various platforms for months before, apparently. HBO definitely wants to prevent that from happening again now.

What I found most striking is that the outline was very accurate. Some sentences were taken right from the script. Even deleted scenes that we know exist were described. Still, there were some striking differences. For example, I saw no mention of Rhaenys interrupting Aegon's coronation in the Dragonpit before escaping. Perhaps the descriptions are based on an older version of the script, or the leaker withheld some things.

Another interesting detail was the scene with Dyana. In the leaked outline, Alicent walks in on Aegon having sex with his young maid. In the final version, it was turned into an assault. I don’t have a link, but apparently TGC mentioned at one of the cons that the scene was originally written as more consensual.

Edited October 3, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort

[$erPounce]

23 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Another interesting detail was the scene with Dyana. In the leaked outline, Alicent walks in on Aegon having sex with his young maid. In the final version, it was turned into an assault. I’m don’t have a link, but apparently TGC mentioned at one of the cons that the scene was originally written as more consensual.

Based on the leaks from season 1 and some interviews, I have the impression that a lot was changed or scrapped late in the writing process. I think that's a pity.

When the script of episode 1 became publicly available to the public, some differences from the eventual episode also stood out, such as that there was less violence and bloodshed during the tournament and a melee between Criston and Daemon that was done fairly. Also, the raid at Flea Bottom also happened in a more logical manner. 

I hope to be able to look at the scripts of the other episodes someday so I can see the differences from the finished episodes. These can be found at the Writers Guild of America Library in Los Angeles. I live on the other side of the world, unfortunately. Maybe someone else can go?

[The Bard of Banefort]

5 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

Based on the leaks from season 1 and some interviews, I have the impression that a lot was changed or scrapped late in the writing process. I think that's a pity.

When the script of episode 1 became publicly available to the public, some differences from the eventual episode also stood out, such as that there was less violence and bloodshed during the tournament and a melee between Criston and Daemon that was done fairly. Also, the raid at Flea Bottom also happened in a more logical manner. 

I hope to be able to look at the scripts of the other episodes someday so I can see the differences from the finished episodes. These can be found at the Writers Guild of America Library in Los Angeles. I live on the other side of the world, unfortunately. Maybe someone else can go?

They seem to have leaned into Daemon’s villainy more as the shooting/editing progressed (ignoring his children after Laena died, abandoning Rhaenyra during labor and then choking her, removing the context of “heir for a day”). I can understand why they did this: this is a guy who groomed one teenage girl and then abandoned her for another, who had one nephew decapitated and died killing a second one. In some ways, it’s actually a bit subversive to embrace the villainy rather than spend the next four seasons trying to convince the audience that he’s actually an anti-hero (although they’re kind of still doing that in interviews). That said, it also makes him a fairly unsympathetic character as well, and his relationship with Rhaenyra feels less tragic and more predatory.

[The Dragon Demands]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:19 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe they plan on changing Daeron’s story and making him a dragonseed? Or some random Targ cousin? We need more leaks.

Oh this isn't even necessarily bad news; it could indicate - particularly in context of other spy reports - that they're adapting the story at a much slower pace than we thought - rather than burn through material.  So maybe his self-contained storyline is just pushed to season 3. Hopefully they establish Season 2 dialogue first that he exists. 

--> We haven't seen a single casting rumor for anyone who would be in the Reach subplot. No Reach lords at all. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by The Dragon Demands

[The Dragon Demands]

Multiple false outlines were being circulated by hype reporters. Don't trust them all. 

The one the hardcore spy channels shared with me at the time didn't mention that. 

i try to limit deleted scenes to ones we can fully confirm from actor interviews. Haven't gone through all of TGC's stuff yet such as that convention panel; i'll get to it

[The Dragon Demands]

Small update: I knew about this for a while but now the other spy channels are publicly sharing it so I guess it's okay to:

While the Sowing of the Dragonseeds is in episode 7, they're gradually introduced throughout Season 2.

Particularly, we know that Addam of Hull (played by Clinton Liberty) shows up at least as early as episode 2 - when Seasmoke starts following him around.

----------------------------------

Second update:  the actor playing Lord Humfrey Leffrord appears in two episodes: 6 and possibly 8

Which is important because there's a big scene of the Lannister army riding up to Golden Tooth and the Lefford vassal army joining them. Also we don't know what the hell else happens in episode 6.

This doesn't change TOO much, but either we meet Lefford before the army scene, or the army scene is in the finale.

Generallly "the Lannister invasion of the Riverlands just begins near the end of the season".

Two scenarios: either we meet Lefford in episode 6 then the army rides out in episode 8, or, the army rides out in episode 6, and perhaps the Battle of Red Fork is in episode 8 - just to give it an action climax.

....which seems increasingly plausible given that we don't think the Dragonstone front has an action scene in episode 8. No Battle of the Gullet. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by The Dragon Demands

[The Dragon Demands]

So this is the revised Season 2 outline:

Episode 1 - "A Son for a Son" Directed by Alan Taylor

• Rhaenyra flies to the beach of Shipbreaker Bay and finds Luke or Arrax's corpse (this was one of the unreliable narrator moments from the book, what happened to Luke's body; they took a third option)
• Reactions to Luke's death at Dragonstone.
• Reactions to Luke's death at King's Landing - Aegon II feasts Aemond at the "Cock's Inn", which we think is in Flea Bottom. The handmaid he assaulted, "Dyana", may or may not be working there, but we know she appears in multiple episodes this season: 1, 3, 5, and 6.
• PRESUMABLY Jace visits the Eyrie and Winterfell around this point, but we've heard no specific leaks about it.
• Daemon takes Harrenhal. Takes a minor wound or something, and while getting it patched up meets the mysterious Alys Rivers (source: leaked casting video). 
  • We've had no specific castings for the Blackwoods yet. I'd be surprised if they weren't in it and a lot of new castings haven't been identified yet. They DID spend a lot of time setting up the Blackwoods and Brackens in Season 1 (in episodes 4 and 6). ZERO word on casting them.
  • Still, with all the battle stuff at the Harrenhal set, we wonder if they're merging Fall of Harrenhal with Battle of the Burning Mill/Fall of Stone Hedge (or at least...Burning Mill happens, but it's not a major set piece - unconfirmed). 
• Final scene is Daemon sneaking into KL on a fishing boat, to set up Blood & Cheese.

Episode 2 - Directed by Clare Kilner

• Blood & Cheese. (We don't know if Maelor will exist in the TV show.)
• UPDATE: Addam of Hull (Clinton Liberty) appears at least as early as this episode, as the dragon Seasmoke starts following him around.

Episode 3 - Directed by Geeta Patel

• Reactions to Blood & Cheese.
• Spy footage showed Aemond overseeing the beheadings of several prisoners in a Red Keep courtyard; I think it happens in this episode, as in the book after Blood & Cheese the Greens responded by executing their remaining prisoners who wouldn't bend the knee.
• Chronologically, Cargyll Bowl should happen around this point, but we've seen no specific leaks.
• Aegon II fires Otto and replaces him as Hand of the King with Criston Cole (Criston seen wearing Hand of the King necklace of office in episode four). 
• Large invented sequence filmed on the streets of Caceres with many spy photos: the Greens hold a funeral procession throughout the city, with a herald shouting "Behold the work of Rhaenyra the Cruel!" - trying to propagandize this for all its worth. Alicent and a not particularly insane looking Helaena ride in a carriage behind the casket. When they pass through Flea Bottom, however, they are booed and people throw rotten (inedible) food at them, a food riot breaks out. Alicent & Helaena pelted with rotten food so much they have to turn around.
• Criston Cole and some (new?) Kingsguard ride behind the royal carriage, but riding behind them are three new prominent characters - we think/hope they're not one-shots but lieutenants to major characters:
  • Martin Reyne - from the Westerlands
  • Leon Estermont - From the Stormlands
  • "Eddard Waters" - as he is black, I suspect he is a condensation of Vaemond's sons & the Silent Five Velaryons with Marston Waters (the book actually does mention in passing the Marston is from Driftmark - so maybe he was a Velaryon bastard?)
• ....A running theory I have is that they're going to use the funeral as an opportunity to introduce all of "Team Green" together in one place for TV viewers, or at least as many as practical. Introducing other Greens we haven't met before. Including, possibly.....Daeron Targaryen and Ormund Hightower? It's just a theory, no evidence. but the roads aren't closed yet as the north of the Reach isn't openly rebelling. The "War of Quills and Ravens" isn't exactly over yet. But this is pure speculation - it would be weird if Alicent never shared a scene with her fourth child.
  • On the other hand it increasingly looks like Daeron isn't in Season 2, as no other associated castings from the Reach subplot have been revealed.

Episode 4 - "A Dance of Dragons" - Directed  by Alan Taylor

• Battle of Rook's Rest. 
• Starts with the aftermath of the Sack of Duskendale, leading in to Rook's Rest as a major action set piece (possibly THE major action set piece of the season). 

Episode 5 - Directed by Clare Kilner

• Just as episode 3 was "aftermath of Blood & Cheese", this episode is "aftermath of Rook's Rest". 
• Dragon head paraded through the streets of KL, as in the book (from very obvious Caceres spy photos).

Episode 6 - Directed by Andrij Parekh (who won an Emmy for his work on "Succession")

• Several things we used to think happen in episode 6 were later confirmed to happen in episode 7. We have very little idea what's happening in it.
• It's possible that around this point in time we get Aemond with the Small Council deciding on the grand strategy for the next phase of the war, the main full scale ware phase: their KL army will advance on Harrenhal from the southeast, while the Lannister army advances from the west, to catch Rhaenyra's massing army in a pincers movement. 
• We saw a big scene being filmed of the Lannister army arriving at Golden Tooth and being joined by the Lefford army, but don't know exactly what episode it's in. HOWEVER, it was then confirmed that the actor playing Lord Humfrey Lefford appears in two episodes: "6, and probably 8". This leads to one of two scenarios:
  • Lefford is introduced in episode 6 but the army scene isn't until episode 8, ending on the cliffhanger that they're heading to the Riverlands.
  • The army scene is in episode 6, and then Lefford reappears with them in episode 8 because it's the Battle of the Red Fork. This COULD be used as the season finale action scene. We know they filmed battles near a river at Penmacnho Roman Bridge. 

Episode 7 - Directed by Loni Peristere

• In contrast to episode 6, we know quite a bit about what happens in this episode:
• Daemon is at Harrenhal by this point, standing on the battlements overseeing the troop formations of the various Riverlord Houses. Mentioned by name were Blackwood, Bracken (now that they bent the knee), Strong, Mallister, also for the first time Mooton, Piper, Darry, and even Vance. Oscar Tully rides in to Harrenhal with a delegation of Tully knights. The green young boy meets with Daemon to reluctantly explain to him that Riverrun's armies have to remain neutral until old Lord Grover dies. Notice this means that the main campaign in the Riverlands hasn't even begun yet: the Lannister pincer from the west, and Aemond's KL pincer from the east. 
• Rhaena arrives at the Eyrie, accompanied by a large entourage of knights, dragonkeepers, servants, etc. Jeyne Arryn rides down from the Eyrie with a dozen Arryn knights to meet her at the "waycastle" at base of mountain. No mention of Joff, but others pointed out to me he might have just flown ahead on his dragon (or the actor wasn't mentioned because the dragon is pure CGI). 
• Aegon III accompanies Rhaena to the Eyrie. 
• Sowing of the Dragonseeds (source: major spy photos from Llanddwyn beach). 

Episode 8 - Directed by Geeta Patel

• We really don't know much about what happens in episode 8.
• The running theory for a while was that it either includes the Battle of the Gullet, or ends just as it's starting with the Triarchy fleet on the horizon, saving the actual battle for the Season 3 premiere.
• I would point out that Geeta Patel doesn't have a prior history of doing big battle sequences. For a while we didn't know if Alan Taylor or Geeta Patel was doing the finale, but now that we know he's doing Rook's Rest...it seems less likely there's a huge battle (but hey, first time for everything).
• It's possible that the big "action climax" of the season is in fact the Sowing of the Dragonseeds, a very CGI heavy sequence. Then episode 8 is just the aftermath of that. 
• We DO know that in episode 8, Rhaenyra flies to Harrenhal and meets with Simon Strong. How and why are unclear. 
• UPDATE: it's increasingly possible that the Battle of the Red Fork is being used as the action climax of the season 2 finale. It's a battle sequence, a story cliffhanger (the Lannister invasion of the RIverlands has begun), and a shocking character death (Jason Lannister). 

Unclear chronology: 

• They built a physical set of the top of the Wall, and we saw a dozen Night's Watch rangers riding around in Bourne Wood for a night scene in a snowy forest. A leaked makeup department concept art board prominently labeled "UNDEAD" showed that we will see wights / zombies again in Season 2, implying a major invented storyline for Cregan and Jace. (at least, invented relative to F&B....why DID they call it "the Pact of Ice & Fire"?)
• They built a set of mostly tents with props labeled things like "Tyrosh chair" etc. Apparently we actually see envoys from the Greens talking to the Triarchy council; is this in Essos or the Stepstones? It could be meant to be Tyrosh itself, as others pointed out to me that F&B states their council was meeting IN Tyrosh at the time. Nice bit of detail.
• We increasingly think Daeron and the Reach subplot aren't even in Season 2.
• As of this moment we're not even sure if Sara Snow is in the show, though we do have some candidates we think were cast (either Erica Ford or Raffiela Chapman). Daeron is *probably* Jack Cunningham-Nuttall. Nettles is apparently in the cast as we saw multiple black women at the Sowing of the Dragonseeds but we haven't ID'd any actors. 
• I'm not really sure what the King's Landing Greens are doing in the last few episodes. Five is of course reaction to Rook's Rest, but then what do Alicent or Aemond do? Debate their grand strategy at the small council, culminating in a big scene explaining they'll make a pincers movement? What would be left for Alicent in the finale itself?

Edited October 7, 2023 by The Dragon Demands

[The Bard of Banefort]

I don’t think they’ll cut Sara Snow. She’s the only female Stark in the story, and they’ve already resisted cutting characters like Rhaena who don’t really have anything to do during the Dance. 

Everyone was initially worried that S2 would be rushed, but based on what we know so far, it sounds fairly dragged out. Rhaenyra takes King’s Landing relatively early in the Dance, and yet it looks like we won’t even be getting to the Battle of the Gullet this season. The only main character’s death we’ll probably get is Rhaenys. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 10/7/2023 at 6:21 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

They built a physical set of the top of the Wall, and we saw a dozen Night's Watch rangers riding around in Bourne Wood for a night scene in a snowy forest. A leaked makeup department concept art board prominently labeled "UNDEAD" showed that we will see wights / zombies again in Season 2, implying a major invented storyline for Cregan and Jace.

And given that nothing on HOTD happens without GRRM's approval, this is curious indeed.

There is a theory that the Others/White Walkers awakened long ago in the Land of Always Winter, but didn't make the long way to the Wall until the GoT prologue. But now it seems like they've been around the Wall for more than a century.

[Ran]

14 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

And given that nothing on HOTD happens without GRRM's approval,

Not really true. George and Ryan Condal discuss everything, but it's been indicated by both that at times the showrunner insists that something should happen a certain way and even if George isn't persuaded he'ill agree to disagree. Showrunner has the ultimate responsibility 

Condal is extremely solicitous of George and tries to align as much as possible with what George wants, but he also serves HBO and the perceived audience, and needs to take them into account.

[The Bard of Banefort]

My biggest fear is that instead of portraying the Storming of the Dragonpit as the peasantry revolting against the aristocracy, HOTD will instead portray the smallfolk as imbeciles driven by misogyny against Rhaenyra (led by their chauvinist cult-leader the Shepherd). Even D&D didn’t do that with Dany; the smallfolk were mostly just indifferent to her. Except for Mysaria’s one rather nonsensical line about ending child cruelty (she was happily pimping out young virgins to Daemon in the first episode), HOTD hasn’t really given any thought towards the smallfolk (even when Daemon mentioned the importance of public opinion in E4, it was immediately contrasted with the smallfolk calling Rhaenyra a bitch and a whore). I hope George is involved enough to change that.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

17 hours ago, Ran said:

Not really true. George and Ryan Condal discuss everything, but it's been indicated by both that at times the showrunner insists that something should happen a certain way and even if George isn't persuaded he'ill agree to disagree. Showrunner has the ultimate responsibility 

Condal is extremely solicitous of George and tries to align as much as possible with what George wants, but he also serves HBO and the perceived audience, and needs to take them into account.

Could it be that they simply needed a villain for the show’s Northern storyline, then?

Edited October 9, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

37 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Could it be that they simply needed a villain for the show’s Northern storyline, then?

Why would the Northern storyline need a villain ? Cregan will be a bit antagonist towards Jace upon his arrival (typical stern/cold Stark) but he will warm up to him in time and potentially Sara Snow is thrown into the mix as well. Either way I don't expect Jace to stay in the North for long (2-3 episodes max).

They've set up Aegon's Dream as an important narrative thread in the show, all the Wall/Night's Watch/Undead rumored new materials are tied to it somehow. I don't expect the Others and the Undead to play a significant role. At best Jace will have a vision or something that will convince him Aegon's Dream is real and it will push him towards wanting more dragonriders (that and Rhaenys's death of course), thus the sowing of the dragonseeds in the latter half of the season.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Cregan will be a bit antagonist towards Jace upon his arrival (typical stern/cold Stark) but he will warm up to him in time and potentially Sara Snow is thrown into the mix as well.

Although didn't Jace and Cregan become friends almost right away in F&B?