HOTD Musings

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

"Arryns' kinship to Rhaenyra is very distant" LMAO Her mother was an Arryn. The Lannisters are not related to Aegon II at all.

Aemma Arryn was Rhaenyra's mother ... but Aemma only had half-brothers by her father Lord Rodrik - and we have no confirmation that Lady Jeyne is the daughter of any of the half-brothers (she would have to be the daughter of the elder half-brother since she does have a first cousin through the male line). She could be from a different branch of House Arryn entirely. If she isn't, though, then Rhaenyra and Jeyne are merely half-cousins, which isn't that close a kinship.

And it shows that they didn't really care for each other since neither Viserys I or nor Rhaenyra ever favored any Arryn in-laws/kin in court or council.

For the show chances are not that bad that Daemon's blatant murder of his own wife might lead to some additional Dance battles in the Reach - with the Royces not being willing to support Rhaenyra.

2 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Rhaenyra didn't need armies at the start of the war? Suuure. By the time Cregan and the Northmen - other than the old men who went south to die - finally joined the war, Jason was long dead and his widow busy fighting the Ironborn  if the Lannister support to Rhaenyra was a joke, then the Stark one was an even bigger joke. Cregan waited for almost all of the war before he marched south and finally got to King's Landing when everything was over anyway.

Well, certainly she could have used more troops at the beginning of the war - but she didn't expect those from the North at that time, nor did she bother asking for troops from Cregan and Jeyne after she has taken KL. She is about to win the war and only asks her allies for more men when she is driven out of KL.

Jason Lannister, however, only led his token force to the Riverlands at a time when he could have raised twice or thrice that number. He did not expect an attack from the Iron Islands at that time - and in context it is also kind of weird that Lord Dalton had as much success as he did. Given the military potential of the West a couple of thousands of men missing shouldn't leave the West open for attack. Lannisport and Kayce should be still fully garrisoned, and pretty much nobody from Fair Isle should have joined Jason, anyway.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Almost every review I've seen mentioned how "almost militantly not fun" HotD was. I guess the complaints were so frequent that Condal decided to address it. Yeah, I don't know how to feel about it. 

I think the problem is that every character was so uniformly serious. We keep hearing about how this is “the age of decadence,” yet no one seems to ever be enjoying themselves. (And that includes Daemon. He’s the most miserable troublemaker I’ve ever seen). The only exception was teenage Aegon, and he only lasted two episodes.

[The Young Maester]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the problem is that every character was so uniformly serious. We keep hearing about how this is “the age of decadence,” yet no one seems to ever be enjoying themselves. (And that includes Daemon. He’s the most miserable troublemaker I’ve ever seen). The only exception was teenage Aegon, and he only lasted two episodes.

I will say i expected viserys court to be more lively and fun. His reign was similar to robert (without debt and cuckolding) where he partied held numerous tourneys and had lots of fun. The guy enjoyed his kingship and avoided conflict as much as possible hence the black and green fued which he never tried to stamp out. The show made it clear that war was brewing even before alicent married viserys. So the atmoshpere was very tense and on edge from the very first episode.

[The Bard of Banefort]

So many people loved that scene of Viserys walking to the throne in E8, but it just made me angry. He’ll do anything for Rhaenyra but doesn’t seem to even remember that he has other kids. He ruined Alicent’s life, dumped three kids in her lap, then did nothing to help her and actively endangered their children even more by enabling Daemon and Rhaenyra.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the problem is that every character was so uniformly serious. We keep hearing about how this is “the age of decadence,” yet no one seems to ever be enjoying themselves. (And that includes Daemon. He’s the most miserable troublemaker I’ve ever seen). The only exception was teenage Aegon, and he only lasted two episodes.

yes, but that's not something they can so easily fix in season two because by now, every major character is pretty much established. they can't give over-serious Jace funny lines for example. which leaves new characters, most of whom , again, are people without a sense of humor. granted though, they can make an Olenna out of Jeyne(which I wouldn't appreciate) and Daemon can be in a better mood in chaos.

[Annara Snow]

19 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

yes, but that's not something they can so easily fix in season two because by now, every major character is pretty much established. they can't give over-serious Jace funny lines for example. which leaves new characters, most of whom , again, are people without a sense of humor. granted though, they can make an Olenna out of Jeyne(which I wouldn't appreciate) and Daemon can be in a better mood in chaos.

We don't really know if those people who are described in a historical account have a sense of humor or not. Some of the new characters could be funny, which would be fine as long as it's not overdone as GoT started to do it.

Black Aly could be snarky. Jeyne Arryn could be snarky without them turning her into a full blown Olenna. Hugh Hammer and Ulf the White could be a somewhat humorous buddy duo - which I would particularly like as it would be a way to make the audience like them and/or see them as comic relief before the show takes the rug under the locals by having those characters be villains. ASOAIF and GoT did something like that pretty well with Walder Frey, and The Last Kingdom also did it particularly well with a major character in the first few seasons

And so on - they could easily make some of the supporting characters funny without overdoing it and, in particular, without resorting to low brow repetitive humor that GoT did in later seasons when it was just a d**k joke after d**k joke.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Annara Snow

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

So many people loved that scene of Viserys walking to the throne in E8, but it just made me angry. He’ll do anything for Rhaenyra but doesn’t seem to even remember that he has other kids.

I think it's because the viewers know that his other kids aren't very pleasant individuals, with the exception of Helaena.

[The Bard of Banefort]

36 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I think it's because the viewers know that his other kids aren't very pleasant individuals, with the exception of Helaena.

Not really. Aemond is portrayed as an underdog in S1. He’s only disliked by people who have read the books and know what happens next. And the implication for Aegon is that he got to be this way specifically because his father didn’t bother to parent him and his mother was a teenage girl. 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

So many people loved that scene of Viserys walking to the throne in E8, but it just made me angry. He’ll do anything for Rhaenyra but doesn’t seem to even remember that he has other kids. He ruined Alicent’s life, dumped three kids in her lap, then did nothing to help her and actively endangered their children even more by enabling Daemon and Rhaenyra.

That's part of the show completely fucking up depicting the relationship between the actual half-siblings fighting the subsequent succession war where they will not actually meet (at all).

We hear there was a scene in episode 3 where Rhaenyra was teaching Aegon how to say her name. A pity that scene was cut.

While it is understandable that the writers decided to not make Viserys and Aegon close ... there should have been some scenes between him and Viserys if only to establish how Aegon viewed his father and how Viserys interacted with his him privately.

And, of course, there is really no reason to not give Viserys scenes with Helaena and her children. That the touching bedchamber story scene from the book was not adapted is a pity in this regard.

But then they also cut the scenes between Viserys and Rhaenyra's elder son, especially the rather crucial scene where Viserys takes Jace up on the Iron Throne.

The overall bad portrayal of Viserys' court is a major issue. They should have taken time to make it colorful and gay and full of splendor and fun. You could even say that people should have acted differently - less sober, more funny. Like they were constantly mildly intoxicated, say.

Instead we get that stupid decadence motif which, at times, makes things look ugly and sick. Viserys' sickness is also part of that, one imagines. The sickness he suffers from in the book is clearly one caused by overindulgence in wine, women, and song ... and not so much an expression of secret rot within the kingdom.

Viserys putting Rhaenyra first before all his other children is what he would do - but presenting him as a man who didn't really care for any of his children wasn't exactly a great choice.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys putting Rhaenyra first before all his other children is what he would do - but presenting him as a man who didn't really care for any of his children wasn't exactly a great choice.

Is it really that different from how he was presented in F&B, though?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Is it really that different from how he was presented in F&B, though?

Viserys isn't really much of a character in FaB. And while he favors Rhaenyra, he favors getting his way more as him blackmailing Rhaenyra into accepting the Laenor betrothal shows. In fact, him sticking with the succession decree of 105 AC seems to be less a sigh of 'deep fatherly love' and more a sign of him stubbornly refusing an issue he has decided he settled.

Him giving all his children and other kin dragons indicates he spoiled all of them equally, just as he spoiled both Alicent and Rhaenyra, leading to them being able to create parties of about equal strength.

In line with him being the party king he was supposed to be, it makes little sense to assume he was not close to his family - within the framework a monarch would be. You see how he plays around with Rhaenyra's sons, how Helaena and her children visit him until the end. He gives all of them dragon (eggs), even Daemon's girls, etc.

But, of course, as the show correctly depicts, the children should be spending much more time with each other and their septas and septons and maesters and tutors than their royal parents. Rhaenyra is special because she is cupbearer to the king - if she wasn't, she wouldn't see her father much at all. Only, perhaps, during those (uncomfortable) meals they have in the show. And with Aemma it is the same - Rhaenyra visits her mother, it is not that they do anything together.

With Alicent and Rhaenyra we see a similar thing - the babes are mostly cared for by servants, and the children only interact with their mothers when something important is happening or there is reason for concern. That's why it is actually not that bad that young Joffrey and Daemon's boys are effectively absent. Considering their age at this time in the show they wouldn't be part of anything of note.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Some YouTube bro is claiming that Lily James is playing Alys Rivers. I doubt it’s true since YouTubers are generally wrong about leaks (also I think she’s Matt Smith’s ex-girlfriend lol) but if it were true, at least she’s in her 30s. I doubt they’ll make Alys a cougar like in the books, but hopefully she’s at least noticeably older than Aemond. As good as Olivia Cooke is, I still find it rich that they hired a 26-year-old to play a grandmother.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 2/13/2023 at 10:27 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

He ruined Alicent’s life, dumped three kids in her lap, then did nothing to help her and actively endangered their children even more by enabling Daemon and Rhaenyra.

One could argue that Otto was the one who ruined her life by sending her to Viserys.

[The Bard of Banefort]

18 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

One could argue that Otto was the one who ruined her life by sending her to Viserys.

Yes, Otto bears his share of the blame. But Viserys was both an adult and the king, with authority over Otto and everyone else. He married Alicent because he wanted to.

[Annara Snow]

20 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Some YouTube bro is claiming that Lily James is playing Alys Rivers. I doubt it’s true since YouTubers are generally wrong about leaks (also I think she’s Matt Smith’s ex-girlfriend lol) but if it were true, at least she’s in her 30s. I doubt they’ll make Alys a cougar like in the books, but hopefully she’s at least noticeably older than Aemond. As good as Olivia Cooke is, I still find it rich that they hired a 26-year-old to play a grandmother.

I doubt that some dude on YouTube is right, especially since no other source anywhere has said that, but I know for sure that Emily Beecham auditioned for Alys, and she's 38. That's almost as old as Alys is supposed to be (40).

Whether that makes her a "cougar", IDK, but it's funny how terrified everyone seems to be of the role going to an age appropriate actress. I don't recall people clamoring for Daemon to be played by a 20-something so his relationships with Rhaenyra and Laena would be more palatable.

[Annara Snow]

On 2/14/2023 at 4:47 AM, Lord Varys said:

Viserys isn't really much of a character in FaB. And while he favors Rhaenyra, he favors getting his way more as him blackmailing Rhaenyra into accepting the Laenor betrothal shows. In fact, him sticking with the succession decree of 105 AC seems to be less a sigh of 'deep fatherly love' and more a sign of him stubbornly refusing an issue he has decided he settled.

Him giving all his children and other kin dragons indicates he spoiled all of them equally, just as he spoiled both Alicent and Rhaenyra, leading to them being able to create parties of about equal strength.

In line with him being the party king he was supposed to be, it makes little sense to assume he was not close to his family - within the framework a monarch would be. You see how he plays around with Rhaenyra's sons, how Helaena and her children visit him until the end. He gives all of them dragon (eggs), even Daemon's girls, etc.

But, of course, as the show correctly depicts, the children should be spending much more time with each other and their septas and septons and maesters and tutors than their royal parents. Rhaenyra is special because she is cupbearer to the king - if she wasn't, she wouldn't see her father much at all. Only, perhaps, during those (uncomfortable) meals they have in the show. And with Aemma it is the same - Rhaenyra visits her mother, it is not that they do anything together.

With Alicent and Rhaenyra we see a similar thing - the babes are mostly cared for by servants, and the children only interact with their mothers when something important is happening or there is reason for concern. That's why it is actually not that bad that young Joffrey and Daemon's boys are effectively absent. Considering their age at this time in the show they wouldn't be part of anything of note.

Viserys cannot "give" anyone dragons. No one can. He can only give them dragon eggs. Dragons have to be claimed.

And since Helaena's dragon is one of the oldest, and Sunfyre is supposed to have hatched on Dragonstone, it seems like he might not have given any of his children with Alicent dragon eggs, except maybe Daeron, while we know for sure that Rhaenyra's children all got dragon eggs.

Jaehaerys and Jaehaera got their eggs too, to be fair.

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Viserys cannot "give" anyone dragons. No one can. He can only give them dragon eggs. Dragons have to be claimed.

And since Helaena's dragon is one of the oldest, and Sunfyre is supposed to have hatched on Dragonstone, it seems like he might not have given any of his children with Alicent dragon eggs, except maybe Daeron, while we know for sure that Rhaenyra's children all got dragon eggs.

Jaehaerys and Jaehaera got their eggs too, to be fair.

Of course dragons are given. The king gives you permission to enter his Dragonpit or the dragon yards and dragon pits in his citadel and island of Dragonstone. If you do so without royal permission you may suffer the consequences.

The king also chooses and hands hatchling dragons to his children or other members of his family - as Quicksilver and Dreamfyre were given to Aenys and Rhaena, respectively, and as Maegor was offered various dragons which he all declined.

Viserys also gave Aemond permission to try and mount a dragon on Dragonstone after Laenor's funeral.

Thus we can assume that little Aegon was either given the hatchling Sunfyre by his royal father ... or he came from an egg put in Aegon's cradle which then happened to hatch during a stay on Dragonstone. Aegon was born in 107 AC, and Viserys could have taken the family to Dragonstone for various reasons in those years.

Helaena, too, would have been given permission to choose a dragon from the Dragonpit like Jaehaerys' children were. But, like Jaehaerys, Viserys could have also arbitarily denied his family and kin dragon eggs, dragon hatchlings or access to riderless adult dragons.

[Annara Snow]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course dragons are given. The king gives you permission to enter his Dragonpit or the dragon yards and dragon pits in his citadel and island of Dragonstone. If you do so without royal permission you may suffer the consequences.

The king also chooses and hands hatchling dragons to his children or other members of his family - as Quicksilver and Dreamfyre were given to Aenys and Rhaena, respectively, and as Maegor was offered various dragons which he all declined.

Viserys also gave Aemond permission to try and mount a dragon on Dragonstone after Laenor's funeral.

Thus we can assume that little Aegon was either given the hatchling Sunfyre by his royal father ... or he came from an egg put in Aegon's cradle which then happened to hatch during a stay on Dragonstone. Aegon was born in 107 AC, and Viserys could have taken the family to Dragonstone for various reasons in those years.

Helaena, too, would have been given permission to choose a dragon from the Dragonpit like Jaehaerys' children were. But, like Jaehaerys, Viserys could have also arbitarily denied his family and kin dragon eggs, dragon hatchlings or access to riderless adult dragons.

Even if that was true, all that Viserys could do would be to give them access, not give them dragons. But only some of the dragons live in the Dragonpit.

Vhagar obviously doesn't and neither do Vermithor or Silverwing. They've been chilling on Dragonstone for decades. If someone went and claimed them, there's nothing Viserys could do about it.

Sunfyre is also said to have hatched on Dragonstone. 

There's no indication that Laena ever asked Viserys for permission to claim Vhagar. And correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember Maegor or Aerea asking for permission to claim Balerion.

I'm not sure what exactly the kind anyone would've done if someone claimed a big dragon who's not in the Dragonpit. Uh, tried to arrest them and hope they agree to it? Fight them?

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

I doubt that some dude on YouTube is right, especially since no other source anywhere has said that, but I know for sure that Emily Beecham auditioned for Alys, and she's 38. That's almost as old as Alys is supposed to be (40).

Whether that makes her a "cougar", IDK, but it's funny how terrified everyone seems to be of the role going to an age appropriate actress. I don't recall people clamoring for Daemon to be played by a 20-something so his relationships with Rhaenyra and Laena would be more palatable.

Do people want her played by a younger actress? I was under the impression that most book fans were afraid they’d do that. Then again, GOT/HOTD has a lot of thirsty fans who probably think someone can’t still be attractive once they hit 30. (For the record, I once saw some YouTubers complaining that Emilia was “too old” by around S7).

Edited February 15, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Even if that was true, all that Viserys could do would be to give them access, not give them dragons.

Kings can and do give dragons ... the dragons are free to reject those people, of course, but I never said they couldn't. But then - no dragon ever rejected a Targaryen that we know of, so this is a moot point. If a Targaryen is given a dragon he or she will claim them. At least that's what happened in the past.

20 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

But only some of the dragons live in the Dragonpit.

As I said - the king also controls access to his castle and island of Dragonstone. Where the other dragons are.

20 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Vhagar obviously doesn't and neither do Vermithor or Silverwing. They've been chilling on Dragonstone for decades. If someone went and claimed them, there's nothing Viserys could do about it.

Now you confuse show and books. In the books Vhagar lived in the Dragonpit when Baelon claimed her and likely continued to live there until Laena claimed her sometime after Baelon's death.

Vermithor and Silverwing live within the confines of the citadel of Dragonstone. People don't have access to them. In the show Vermithor lives in that cave, but within territory controlled and protected by the Dragonkeepers.

20 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Sunfyre is also said to have hatched on Dragonstone. 

And as I said - that either means he is a hatchling from Dragonstone which was then given to young Aegon by his royal father ... or he hatched from an egg given to Aegon by Viserys which then hatched while they were on Dragonstone.

20 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

There's no indication that Laena ever asked Viserys for permission to claim Vhagar.

So you assume that in the book Laena Velaryon just walked to the Dragonpit to mount the largest dragon in the world without royal permission? Perhaps also without her parents or other people of authority accompanying her? You do recall that Laena rides Vhagar at least since she was twelve years old, right?

We know that you don't enter the Dragonpit without royal permission, so Laena must have gained that permission - either from Viserys I or the ailing Jaehaerys I during the last two years of his reign.

20 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

And correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember Maegor or Aerea asking for permission to claim Balerion.

Maegor mounted Balerion during an interregnum - after his father Aegon I was dead and (apparently) before his half-brother Aenys had been proclaimed and crowned king. We don't know exactly when this happened, but it seems as if there was nobody who could stop Maegor from trying to mount Balerion when he did.

And in Aerea's case it is also pretty clear - Jaehaerys I stupidly allowed his sister Rhaena to control all the Targaryen dragons on Dragonstone. Rhaena was in charge of taking care of them and the eggs and she failed twice in that capacity. Both when she allowed Aerea to mount Balerion and when she failed to stop Elissa from stealing three dragon eggs.

After that mismanagement Jaehaerys I moved most or all the dragons to the Dragonpit - where they were kept under lock and key.

20 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

I'm not sure what exactly the kind anyone would've done if someone claimed a big dragon who's not in the Dragonpit. Uh, tried to arrest them and hope they agree to it? Fight them?

Arrest and kill them when their dragon wasn't looking?

I mean, that didn't happen, and Jaehaerys and Rhaena never got around to punish Aerea for her dragon theft - nor is it *that likely* that the softer and nicer king would have severely punished close kin for that. Aenys, for instance, wanted to get along with Maegor, so he did not accept that he had claimed Balerion, he also gave him Blackfyre. Despite the fact that he may have actually intended that his son Aegon claim Balerion after the Conqueror's death. And Maegor may have been prevented from mounting Balerion if Aenys had been at his father's side on Dragonstone when the Conqueror died. But he wasn't - he was at Highgarden and only flew back to Dragonstone after he learned about his father's death.

But the actual topic at hand was that Viserys I - unlike Jaehaerys I - threw dragons at all his children and other kin. And that is a sign of generosity and affection on his part. He didn't treat his children by Alicent different than his grandsons by Rhaenyra.

His grandfather only allowed three of his children dragons (while, strange enough, allowing dragons to three of his four grandchildren). Sure enough, some of the other children may not have been eager to mount dragons - Daella certainly wasn't, Maegelle may have had no inclination after she was given to the Faith, but Vaegon, Saera, Viserra, and even Gael make less sense. Jaehaerys I also apparently gave none of his children dragon eggs (aside from, apparently, Aemon) - else more would have had dragons even if they never mounted them. Unless we assume their eggs never hatched.