The cold hard truth of the Others.

[three-eyed monkey]

The Others will be integral to the endgame of the story, so maybe it’s no surprise that they seemingly remain shrouded in mystery for now. However, when it comes to constructing a mystery, I’m a firm believer that GRRM always leaves clues for us to find along the way, and the mystery of the Others is no different in that respect.

In the interest of not getting too long this post will focus on one such clue, a single line from Old Nan’s stories, and the wealth of information concealed within.

Quote

"In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins.”

Let’s begin with the Others hating iron and fire. Iron is a main raw material of steel and we hear the term “steel and fire” throughout the series in reference to bringing war.

Quote

"The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests.”

or

Quote

"Storm's End is fallen and Stannis is coming with fire and steel…”

We can look at iron separately, in context to the story and see how it relates to the point. There is the Iron Throne, over which wars are fought. There is the Iron Bank, that funds the wars. The Ironborn, who do not sow but raid and pillage instead. The Iron Fleet, a fleet of warships. The Iron Price, the concept of taking ownership by force.

If Iron makes for a good symbol of war, then so too does fire, for we are told that fire consumes.

Quote

"Fire consumes." Lord Beric stood behind them, and there was something in his voice that silenced Thoros at once. "It consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing."

It is wars that are consuming the realms of men, and will do so until there is nothing left.

The Others also hate every creature with hot blood in its veins. A creature with hot blood in its veins is hot-blooded, naturally, which can be a reference to a person’s temperament. Take Ned’s impression of Marq Piper as an example.

Quote

"Even Lannisters are not so blind stupid as that," Ser Marq Piper snapped. He was a swaggering bantam rooster of a youth, too young and too hot-blooded for Ned's taste…

When Ned tried to bring the king’s justice to Gregor Clegane, he rejected Marq Piper in favor of Beric because he was too hot-blooded, and Ned wanted to bring justice not vengeance.

Quote

“We Dornish are a hot-blooded people, quick to anger and slow to forgive.”

Hot-blooded people have a temperament that is well-suited to violence and vengeance and long-held grudges, like the one held by Prince Doran. Of course, such a temperament is not exclusive to Dorne. It’s part of the human condition, for want of a better term.

Hot blood can also refer to dragons, both literal and figurative.

Quote

"Ours is the house of the dragon," he would say. "The fire is in our blood."

The dragons have always ruled by force, and taken what is theirs with steel and fire. If dragons are fire made flesh, then we can extend the same symbolism used above and say they are also war made flesh. After all, a dragon’s greatest value lies in its great strength as a weapon of war.

If the Others hate iron and fire and creatures with hot blood in their veins, then it makes perfect sense why they attacked Wymar Royce when he drew his sword, or why they attacked the Fist of the First Men after the Watch had ridden out to bring the fight to Mance, or  why they fell on the remnants of Mance’s smashed host as they turned on each other after the battle with Stannis.

So, the first point here is that the Others hate the wars that are consuming the realms of men. But while fire consumes, we are also told that cold preserves.

Quote

Aemon chuckled softly. "Or I am an old man, feverish and dying." He closed his white eyes wearily, then forced them open once again. "I should not have left the Wall. Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes, but cold preserves. The Wall . . .”

Old Nan tells us that the Others were cold things, and the cold preserves. This brings to mind something that Qhorin Halfhand once said to Jon.

Quote

If the Wall should ever fall, all the fires will go out.

Using the same symbolism again, we see that if the Wall should ever fall the Others will not just put out the literal fires but also end the internal wars. This point is further made by Jorah, when speaking to Dany.

Quote

“Nothing knits a broken realm together so quick as an invading army on its soil."

The invasion of the Others will unite the broken realm in an existential fight against a common foe and end the internal wars that are consuming Westeros.

So, the second point is that the Others are a force of preservation. Not necessarily a force of good. I don’t think we can attribute good or evil to the Others any more than we can attribute good or evil to the season of winter. Winter may be cold and hard but it brings and end to the decay of autumn and clears the way for fresh growth in spring, so it has a vital role in the natural cycle of regeneration. The Others have a similar role in the regeneration of Westeros, from the decaying realm it has become.

The problem with the winter that the Others will bring is that it lasts a generation, killing kings in their castles and swineherds in their hovels alike, meaning no one will survive if the Long Night is left to run its course. The cold preserves, that is until it gets so cold that it kills. As Tormund once put it:

Quote

“A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"

How can the armies of the realm fight a mist? How can they drive back a winter that lasts a generation when their swords do not cut cold? The only thing that can drive back winter is spring. The only thing that can end a Long Night is the dawn. We’re familiar with the tales of the Battle for the Dawn, and it’s easy to think that this climactic battle must be won if anyone in Westeros is to live to see another dawn.

But Old Nan told us that the Others hate the touch of the sun. This is the third and final point for now, but it’s an important one. Our heroes do not have to defeat the Others to bring the dawn. They will undoubtably try, but it’s a battle they cannot win. Valyrian steel swords nor dragonglass arrows nor even dragons will bring victory against the Others. The truth is it’s the other way around, our heroes need to bring the dawn to defeat the Others, because it is the touch of the sun the Others hate and that’s what will drive them back.

When Lightbringer is re-forged, the sword may well prove effective in combat against the Others, however, the true power of the sword is not in its blade but rather in the way the blade was tempered. It was Nissa Nissa’s selfless sacrifice, when her strength and courage flowed into the blade, that made the sword what it was – Lightbringer - so named because it brought back the light. Her true sacrifice brought back the dawn, and it was the touch of the rising sun that the Others could not stand against, not the sword itself.

Quote

“Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy.”

The Others are known as the true enemy. It’s an appropriate name because they are about to bring a hard truth to the realm. The truth is that mankind is its own worst enemy, the true enemy the realm has lost sight of, because most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it. It takes strength and courage to take a hard look at yourself, and it’s much easier to place the blame on Others.

Thanks for reading.

[GZ Bloodraven]

This is a great analysis: the connection between war and fire and blood being hot-tempered, unpredictable, and destructive, as opposed to the looming threat of winter, ice and cold is no doubt integral to the series. The Dornish point I hadn't even considered: I guess I've always associated the Dornish with water because of the Greenblood and the river-worshipping Rhoynar, but them as a symbol of fire and war, as kind of a counter to the Targaryens, is actually very interesting. 

[Curled Finger]

33 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

But Old Nan told us that the Others hate the touch of the sun. This is the third and final point for now, but it’s an important one. Our heroes do not have to defeat the Others to bring the dawn. They will undoubtably try, but it’s a battle they cannot win. Valyrian steel swords nor dragonglass arrows nor even dragons will bring victory against the Others. The truth is it’s the other way around, our heroes need to bring the dawn to defeat the Others, because it is the touch of the sun the Others hate and that’s what will drive them back.

When Lightbringer is re-forged, the sword may well prove effective in combat against the Others, however, the true power of the sword is not in its blade but rather in the way the blade was tempered. It was Nissa Nissa’s selfless sacrifice, when her strength and courage flowed into the blade, that made the sword what it was – Lightbringer - so named because it brought back the light. Her true sacrifice brought back the dawn, and it was the touch of the rising sun that the Others could not stand against, not the sword itself.

The Others are known as the true enemy. It’s an appropriate name because they are about to bring a hard truth to the realm. The truth is that mankind is its own worst enemy, the true enemy the realm has lost sight of, because most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it. It takes strength and courage to take a hard look at yourself, and it’s much easier to place the blame on Others.

 

I'm learning quite a bit from you lately, Ser Monkey.  I read through the entire OP twice and even cross checked a few things I was dubious about and reread.  Not to doubt you, but to cross check my own memory.  I try not to be too bitchy with folks.  Overall, you've put a very nice stamp on The Others envelope.  You've given a lovely explanation of their use as both weapon and way to salvation and further destruction.  Nicely done.  

I am a fan of some of the finer points to come in the Battle for Dawn and agree wholeheartedly that it is the sun or daybreak that will have to be the ultimate outcome of this great strife.  While all this frozen fire and Valyrian Steel will be useful in killing The Others, I believe their magic, their ability to bring the cold and darkness with them will linger until that spell is broken.   I don't think dragons or their simple death is like to do that.  I wondered if you have any ideas what will bring the dawn.    

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

This was an awesome read! And it's an opinion I share, but you managed to put it into words. And so eloquently too. Do you think this coming Dawn will defeat the Others permanently? Or simply drive them back?

23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I wondered if you have any ideas what will bring the dawn.    

I'd also like your opinion on this question..

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

This was an awesome read! And it's an opinion I share, but you managed to put it into words. And so eloquently too. Do you think this coming Dawn will defeat the Others permanently? Or simply drive them back?

I'd also like your opinion on this question..

Only the vaguest idea that maybe Dawn is a key maybe.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Quote

can your sword cut cold?"

How can the armies of the realm fight a mist? How can they drive back a winter that lasts a generation when their swords do not cut cold?

I think you gloss over the irony here a bit. 

We will see, Jon thought, remembering the things that Sam had told him, the things he'd found in his old books. Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells. Dragonsteel, Sam called it. Stronger than any common steel, lighter, harder, sharper … But words in a book were one thing. The true test came in battle.

Because, we are led to believe that yes, in fact, Jon's sword can cut the cold.

1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Let’s begin with the Others hating iron and fire. Iron is a main raw material of steel and we hear the term “steel and fire” throughout the series in reference to bringing war.

Maybe it's important, maybe it's not (I think it is)... But, how do we know the Others hated iron?

The history we are told is that the First Men at the time used bronze, and iron wasn't introduced to Westeros until the Andals.

"The children of the forest used dragonglass blades," he said. "They'd know where to find obsidian."
"The children of the forest are all dead," said Mormont. "The First Men killed half of them with bronze blades, and the Andals finished the job with iron. Why a glass dagger should—"

Meanwhile there are tales of the Last Hero fighting with a blade of Dragonsteel... Are we to believe that Dragonsteel predated ironworking?

Or rather, I would suggest, that it wasn't just the First Men fighting the Others during the Long Night, and perhaps that the Last Hero wasn't even from Westeros.

1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The only thing that can end a Long Night is the dawn. We’re familiar with the tales of the Battle for the Dawn, and it’s easy to think that this climactic battle must be won if anyone in Westeros is to live to see another dawn.

I would suggest that the Long Night was not ended by a "Battle for the Dawn", all crows are liars.

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

I suspect that this is not a story where the answer to war and death is more war and death.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

So, the second point is that the Others are a force of preservation. Not necessarily a force of good. I don’t think we can attribute good or evil to the Others any more than we can attribute good or evil to the season of winter. Winter may be cold and hard but it brings and end to the decay of autumn and clears the way for fresh growth in spring, so it has a vital role in the natural cycle of regeneration. The Others have a similar role in the regeneration of Westeros, from the decaying realm it has become.

 

Mass effect's reapers?

There are a few points I disagree (can't search for opposing quotes right now) but as a whole I like it.

Below thread was not intended to be entirely serious, but there are some points there that are serious.

 

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I think you gloss over the irony here a bit. 

We will see, Jon thought, remembering the things that Sam had told him, the things he'd found in his old books. Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells. Dragonsteel, Sam called it. Stronger than any common steel, lighter, harder, sharper … But words in a book were one thing. The true test came in battle.

Because, we are led to believe that yes, in fact, Jon's sword can cut the cold.

Maybe it's important, maybe it's not (I think it is)... But, how do we know the Others hated iron?

The history we are told is that the First Men at the time used bronze, and iron wasn't introduced to Westeros until the Andals.

"The children of the forest used dragonglass blades," he said. "They'd know where to find obsidian."
"The children of the forest are all dead," said Mormont. "The First Men killed half of them with bronze blades, and the Andals finished the job with iron. Why a glass dagger should—"

I would suggest that the Long Night was not ended by a "Battle for the Dawn", all crows are liars.

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

I suspect that this is not a story where the answer to war and death is more war and death.

Sorry, Mourning Star, you know I can be thick as a castle wall.  I love what you bring to our conversations and as usual don't follow.  Are you saying that magic is what will bring the dawn or defeat the others or both?  

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Sorry, Mourning Star, you know I can be thick as a castle wall.  I love what you bring to our conversations and as usual don't follow.  Are you saying that magic is what will bring the dawn or defeat the others or both?  

Haha thanks, and sorry for being obtuse. It's hard when the scope of this question is so large... part of me wants to dive down rabbit holes of literary references to Dante and Virgil, but I'll try and restrain myself and make some sense.

I think that Others represent the same sort of existential threat to humanity that dragons do, destruction and enslavement. I always come back to thinking of the origin of the name, A Song of Ice and Fire, the poem by Frost, Fire and Ice:

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

I think the seasons being years long, is a reflection of some great imbalance or wrong that needs righting.

I think the solution to war is common understanding and forgiveness of past wrongs (mercy), and not continuing a cycle of more vengeance and wroth.

Another major theme I see in the series is that we bring our own doom down upon us through our own actions, as individuals, families, and as groups. I would be astonished if Man is not responsible for Mankind's own seemingly impending doom. Or, for instance, if the first of the Faceless Men, who caused the Doom of Valyria, was not a Valyrian themselves.

If I'm going to speculate wildly, and this is certainly that, I would suggest that the Long Night was ended by a pact, and that it was Mankind who violated that pact.

I would suggest that the Battle for the Dawn, was a battle for the sword Dawn (likely on Battle Isle, where the Hightower now stands). I would not be surprised if both sides were Men.

I would suggest that the constructions of Brandon the Builder (from the round towers to the gargoyles in Winterfell), that the Starks used to have a fleet (the First Men were not seafarers any more than they were ironworkers), the Others hating Iron, and the tales in Essos of the Long Night, reflect that the Last Hero and possibly his companions were from a society (or societies) more technologically advanced than the First Men, likely from Essos (looking at you Asshai).

I would not be surprised to learn that Starks, Daynes, and Valyrians share common ancestry.

"So you are fighting over a crown that one of you took from the other back when the Casterlys still held Casterly Rock, is that the root of it? The crown of a kingdom that has not existed for thousands of years?" He chuckled. "So many years, so many wars, so many kings … you'd think someone would have made a peace."
"Someone did, my lord. Many someones. We've had a hundred peaces with the Brackens, many sealed with marriages. There's Blackwood blood in every Bracken, and Bracken blood in every Blackwood. The Old King's Peace lasted half a century. But then some fresh quarrel broke out, and the old wounds opened and began to bleed again. That's how it always happens, my father says. So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it."
"There could be."
"How, my lord? The old wounds never heal, my father says."
"My father had a saying too. Never wound a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don't claim vengeance."
"Their sons do," said Hoster, apologetically.
"Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone." For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks.
"Is that why you killed all the Starks?"
"Not all," said Jaime. "Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other …" Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? "… if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."
"The gods are good," his hostage said, uncertainly.
You go on believing that. Jaime let Honor feel his spurs.

I think this conversation gets to the crux of the story.

And, when it comes to the Others, dead men do claim vengeance. 

The lasting answer is peace, and rooted in the forgiving of wrongs.

But obviously, this is all just my wild speculation.

"There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.

[Curled Finger]

@Mourning Starthanks so much, I knew there was much more to what you were saying than I was picking up, as there always is.  What you are thinking isn't so far from what the OP is saying, maybe from different angles, sure.  One thing is certain, men have failed here.  What they have failed (and you know I agree that they have fallen down on whatever their part of this pact was) has failed miserably and brought nothing but continued and greater failure down upon all their attempts at settlement.  Petty kingdoms to this great unified and expanded realm, discontent does not leave this place.  The First Men and the The Andals killed off the Children and the Giants to where they are near extinction so that these men may continue to fight and sow dissention among themselves.  One way or another The Others will force men to work together or not at all.  

Thanks again, for all the extra words.  

[three-eyed monkey]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I wondered if you have any ideas what will bring the dawn.    

3 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I'd also like your opinion on this question..

Sorry. There's a lot to reply to and I will try get back to address some of the other points made, but I'll start with this question for now. What will bring the dawn?

Let's look back to what happened in the past.

The conventional wisdom in the fandom suggests that Azor Ahai was a hero who needed a magic sword to defeat the Others. The forging of this sword came at great sacrifice to the hero, for he needed to temper the blade in the heart of Nissa Nissa, and therefore had to sacrifice the life of the person he loved most. Once he had his magic sword, the hero then went on to defeat the Others and bring back the dawn.

However, I feel this is not an accurate interpretation of what really happened. Azor Ahai is not really the hero of the story. It was Nissa Nissa who was the true hero. It was her self-sacrifice, the only form of true sacrifice, that brought the dawn. And it was the light of dawn that defeated the Others.

The tempering of the blade is the key. GRRM is playing with the double meaning of the word here, a game he plays often. Tempering steel is the part of the process that gives a blade it's flexibility and strength. Tempered also refers to a person's disposition. An even-tempered or well-tempered person is not hot-blooded. The point is that while a blade needs to be well-tempered so that it can be strong and flexible, so do people. If people were better tempered, then there would be less war.

Nissa Nissa bore her breast willingly. Salladhor Saan could not say why she did this thing, but of course a self-interested pirate wouldn't understand the concept of self-sacrifice. She gave herself to save the realm. This is what made it a true sacrifice, because you can only sacrifice something you own, and the only life anyone truly owns is their own. Azor Ahai loved Nissa Nissa best of all that was in the world, so it was a sacrifice of sorts on his behalf, but it was not a true sacrifice because it was not his life.

When Azor Ahai thrust his sword through Nissa Nissa's heart, her blood and soul and her strength and courage went into the blade. These were the key ingredients of the sword, the strength and courage of someone who was willing to sacrifice themselves to save the realm. The result was Lightbringer, a sword that brought back the light.

There is another element too. The song of ice and fire, the secret song to bring back the day. I usually try to stick to the novels for quotes but I'll pull this from the World Book.

Quote

Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru. According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

It makes poetic sense to me that the song of ice and fire would be a harmony. A harmony is created when two separate notes are struck together to create a more pleasing sound. Nissa Nissa is said to have let out a cry as the sword pierced her heart. I suggest that this was one of the notes. The second note must have come from Azor Ahai at the same time, perhaps a howl of anguish as he killed what he loved best in all the world. These two notes were struck together at the moment the blade was tempered. A song of steel, in many ways.

The legend of Lightbringer is set-up for the climax of the story, so looking forward we really need only replace Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa with characters from the current timeline, like Jon and Dany. While the principles remain the same, I believe some of the details will differ. For example, I don't think Dany will be Jon's wife. Duty is Jon's wife and honor is what he loves best in the world, and I suspect that's what the act will cost him. Unfortunately, Dany will pay with her life, but it be willing self-sacrifice because, as she already knows, a true queen belongs not to herself but to her people. The dawn is the third fire she must light, the one for love. Her love of the realm.

 

 

[three-eyed monkey]

15 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Do you think this coming Dawn will defeat the Others permanently? Or simply drive them back?

Drive them back and allow Westeros to start fresh again in spring. But as sure as the seasons move on, the new society will inevitably decay, and the Others will return again. 

15 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Maybe it's important, maybe it's not (I think it is)... But, how do we know the Others hated iron?

The history we are told is that the First Men at the time used bronze, and iron wasn't introduced to Westeros until the Andals.

"The children of the forest used dragonglass blades," he said. "They'd know where to find obsidian."
"The children of the forest are all dead," said Mormont. "The First Men killed half of them with bronze blades, and the Andals finished the job with iron. Why a glass dagger should—"

Meanwhile there are tales of the Last Hero fighting with a blade of Dragonsteel... Are we to believe that Dragonsteel predated ironworking?

Or rather, I would suggest, that it wasn't just the First Men fighting the Others during the Long Night, and perhaps that the Last Hero wasn't even from Westeros.

Well we could dispute the histories, as they do in-world. I think Hoster Blackwood makes the point, when speaking with Jaime.

Quote

 

"When did all this happen?"

"Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend."

 

Unfortunately, when it comes to the Long Night we are in the fog of legend, be it Old Nan's stories or the legend of Lightbringer. However, from a narrative point of view I think legends must have value to the story or else they're just a waste of ink.

Based on the legend, I believe Lightbringer was steel, because much is made about the tempering of the blade. I think it's the same sword as the Last Hero's blade of dragonsteel. I posted something called GRRM's riddle of steel a while back that goes into this in more detail, but I'll quickly run though the relevance of Azor Ahai's attempts to temper the blade.

First attempt in water. This is how common steel is tempered.

Second attempt through the heart of a captured lion. Lions symbolize kings. This is a kings blood sacrifice. I believe this is the secret of how Valyrian Steel is tempered. One of the things to note is that the lion is captured so this is not a willing self-sacrifice on the lion's behalf.

Third attempt, through the heart of Nissa Nissa, who bore her breast willingly. This is a true sacrifice and the result was Lightbringer, with its blade of dragonsteel. I believe this means that Nissa Nissa was the blood of the dragon, not a Targaryen obviously, but a distant ancestor of Dany's for sure. And to turn steel to dragonsteel, it needs to be tempered with the blood of the dragon. The Targaryen words provide a strong clue to this.

15 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I suspect that this is not a story where the answer to war and death is more war and death.

I agree. I hope I made that clear in the OP.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The Others will be integral to the endgame of the story, so maybe it’s no surprise that they seemingly remain shrouded in mystery for now. However, when it comes to constructing a mystery, I’m a firm believer that GRRM always leaves clues for us to find along the way, and the mystery of the Others is no different in that respect.

In the interest of not getting too long this post will focus on one such clue, a single line from Old Nan’s stories, and the wealth of information concealed within.

Let’s begin with the Others hating iron and fire. Iron is a main raw material of steel and we hear the term “steel and fire” throughout the series in reference to bringing war.

or

We can look at iron separately, in context to the story and see how it relates to the point. There is the Iron Throne, over which wars are fought. There is the Iron Bank, that funds the wars. The Ironborn, who do not sow but raid and pillage instead. The Iron Fleet, a fleet of warships. The Iron Price, the concept of taking ownership by force.

If Iron makes for a good symbol of war, then so too does fire, for we are told that fire consumes.

It is wars that are consuming the realms of men, and will do so until there is nothing left.

The Others also hate every creature with hot blood in its veins. A creature with hot blood in its veins is hot-blooded, naturally, which can be a reference to a person’s temperament. Take Ned’s impression of Marq Piper as an example.

When Ned tried to bring the king’s justice to Gregor Clegane, he rejected Marq Piper in favor of Beric because he was too hot-blooded, and Ned wanted to bring justice not vengeance.

Hot-blooded people have a temperament that is well-suited to violence and vengeance and long-held grudges, like the one held by Prince Doran. Of course, such a temperament is not exclusive to Dorne. It’s part of the human condition, for want of a better term.

Hot blood can also refer to dragons, both literal and figurative.

The dragons have always ruled by force, and taken what is theirs with steel and fire. If dragons are fire made flesh, then we can extend the same symbolism used above and say they are also war made flesh. After all, a dragon’s greatest value lies in its great strength as a weapon of war.

If the Others hate iron and fire and creatures with hot blood in their veins, then it makes perfect sense why they attacked Wymar Royce when he drew his sword, or why they attacked the Fist of the First Men after the Watch had ridden out to bring the fight to Mance, or  why they fell on the remnants of Mance’s smashed host as they turned on each other after the battle with Stannis.

So, the first point here is that the Others hate the wars that are consuming the realms of men. But while fire consumes, we are also told that cold preserves.

Old Nan tells us that the Others were cold things, and the cold preserves. This brings to mind something that Qhorin Halfhand once said to Jon.

Using the same symbolism again, we see that if the Wall should ever fall the Others will not just put out the literal fires but also end the internal wars. This point is further made by Jorah, when speaking to Dany.

The invasion of the Others will unite the broken realm in an existential fight against a common foe and end the internal wars that are consuming Westeros.

So, the second point is that the Others are a force of preservation. Not necessarily a force of good. I don’t think we can attribute good or evil to the Others any more than we can attribute good or evil to the season of winter. Winter may be cold and hard but it brings and end to the decay of autumn and clears the way for fresh growth in spring, so it has a vital role in the natural cycle of regeneration. The Others have a similar role in the regeneration of Westeros, from the decaying realm it has become.

The problem with the winter that the Others will bring is that it lasts a generation, killing kings in their castles and swineherds in their hovels alike, meaning no one will survive if the Long Night is left to run its course. The cold preserves, that is until it gets so cold that it kills. As Tormund once put it:

How can the armies of the realm fight a mist? How can they drive back a winter that lasts a generation when their swords do not cut cold? The only thing that can drive back winter is spring. The only thing that can end a Long Night is the dawn. We’re familiar with the tales of the Battle for the Dawn, and it’s easy to think that this climactic battle must be won if anyone in Westeros is to live to see another dawn.

But Old Nan told us that the Others hate the touch of the sun. This is the third and final point for now, but it’s an important one. Our heroes do not have to defeat the Others to bring the dawn. They will undoubtably try, but it’s a battle they cannot win. Valyrian steel swords nor dragonglass arrows nor even dragons will bring victory against the Others. The truth is it’s the other way around, our heroes need to bring the dawn to defeat the Others, because it is the touch of the sun the Others hate and that’s what will drive them back.

When Lightbringer is re-forged, the sword may well prove effective in combat against the Others, however, the true power of the sword is not in its blade but rather in the way the blade was tempered. It was Nissa Nissa’s selfless sacrifice, when her strength and courage flowed into the blade, that made the sword what it was – Lightbringer - so named because it brought back the light. Her true sacrifice brought back the dawn, and it was the touch of the rising sun that the Others could not stand against, not the sword itself.

The Others are known as the true enemy. It’s an appropriate name because they are about to bring a hard truth to the realm. The truth is that mankind is its own worst enemy, the true enemy the realm has lost sight of, because most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it. It takes strength and courage to take a hard look at yourself, and it’s much easier to place the blame on Others.

Thanks for reading.

I take everything Old Nan says with a huge grain of salt. She is relaying stories that have been told and retold for thousands of years, so the likelihood of her being correct in the details is slim at best. She also says Dagmer Cleftjaw had his head cut cleanly in two and then held the two halves together until it healed. So if she can't even get the present right, there is not reason to believe her about the distant, mythical past.

Based on what we actually know about the Others, which is precious little, two things stand out:

There is no indication that they are moving south or are even remotely interested in the Wall. If they mean to invade, they are taking their sweet time about it.

We've only seen a grand total of five or six Others, so there is no reason to think they exist in great numbers or haven't been skulking about the Haunted Forest for milennia.

And hold on to your hat for this one: there is only vague, circumstantial evidence that the Others are the ones raising and controlling the wights. We are five novels into the series and we have yet to see this. In fact, the only time we see an Other and a wight in the same place at the same time is the one riding the dead horse. So not only do we not see the Other raise the horse, but it doesn't control it any differently from a normal horse; he just dismounts and the horse just wanders off with no compulsion to kill the living. It doesn't even have the burning blue eyes. And since Others can glide evenly over the top of snow, why would one need to ride any kind of horse, living or dead? So this whole scene is very odd.

Couple this with the clear statements from Martin that he is not doing dark lords and dark minions and the ultimate battle between good and evil for the fate of all mankind, and it's pretty clear that the Others do not represent the main enemy and will not feature highly in the climax of the book.

[Evolett]

A very insightful post which I really enjoyed reading, especially because your interpretation of the symbols of iron/steel, fire and ice incorporates a holistic view of the underlying problem.

While I agree with much of what you propose, I’m not sure returning the dawn to end a Long Night itself will be sufficient to completely defeat the Others because they operate quite happily within current normal cycles of night and day. They simply return to an underground abode sheltered from the sun when dawn comes (presumably). They can of course significantly further their goals to wipe out life by extending the darkness indefinitely. So, I’ve always regarded ending a long winter /defeating the Others who can bring and intensify the cold, and ending a long night as requiring two separate solutions. I think this is suggested by the contrast between the tales of heroes like Azor Ahai and the tale of the secret song that brought back the day.

I will share a few thoughts on bringing back the dawn which you envisage as a harmony of cries of agony and ecstasy emitted by Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai:

Quote

There is another element too. The song of ice and fire, the secret song to bring back the day. I usually try to stick to the novels for quotes but I'll pull this from the World Book.

  Quote

Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru. According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

It makes poetic sense to me that the song of ice and fire would be a harmony. A harmony is created when two separate notes are struck together to create a more pleasing sound. Nissa Nissa is said to have let out a cry as the sword pierced her heart. I suggest that this was one of the notes. The second note must have come from Azor Ahai at the same time, perhaps a howl of anguish as he killed what he loved best in all the world. These two notes were struck together at the moment the blade was tempered. A song of steel, in many ways.

 

Rather than cries of agony and ecstasy, my guess is that a harmonious song, a song of ice and fire, will be required. One that encompasses agony and ecstasy, one that is bitter-sweet or a sweet sad song as of the type Rhaegar was wont to compose and sing. Perhaps George is drawing on the philosophical concept of the music of the spheres or harmony of the spheres here, though I’m not sure of its direct application. That said, we do have Moonsingers in the narrative.

Songs and singers are important to the story. It’s no accident that Rhaegar composed and sang his own songs or that Bael was a bard, Mance likes to sing or that there are many singers that end up maimed or dead. The CotF think of themselves as singers too and employ this singing as a part of their magic. There are instances where discordant music and singing accompany dire events, such as at the Red Wedding, underscoring your analysis of the destructive nature of iron/steel and fire.

Singing also stands in contrast to Silence, a motif directly linked to Euron whose ship, crewed by mutes is named as such and who obviously aspires to wreak extreme havoc on Westeros. Silence thus appears connected to death (also the Silent Sisters) and destruction. Clearly, Euron isn’t in the business of spreading harmony. Important female characters such as Sansa and Brienne know all the songs, though Brienne herself does not sing, which might tie into the motif of silence. Ghost is Jon’s mute partner, though Jon himself heard the puppy calling him first time round.  Ghost could well be Jon’s silent source of song.

Symbolically, eliminating or maiming singers may represent an undermining of the harmony required to bring back the dawn, hence why some songs must not be heard aloud or remain secret. The Rhoynish tale also suggests opposing factions must come together to sing this song, which fits with the theme of ice and fire. When Dany’s dragons hatch, they fill the night with the “music of dragons:”

Quote

As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons.

This hissing, I suppose, is an example of the “music of fire,” contrasting the howling of the direwolves which Bran perceives as “song” and Ghost’s muteness.

The “Song of Steel” you mention is also a thing, no doubt. Dalla’s baby now goes by the name of Aemon Steelsong and there are many instances of steel singing. Bittersteel may represent the opposite of the steel song. There are a few instances of Valyrian Steel swords named for sounds such as Widow’s Wail, Brightroar or Lamentation, worth considering how they might fit into the theme of singing and music.

The examples of Rhaegar, Bael the Bard and Mance suggest a warrior-bard will be important to the endgame, one who is strong in combat as well as in song, whatever that song turns out to be, or in whatever form it will manifest (“singing swords,” mute direwolves, musical dragons, singing warrior-bards ..., there are many possibilities). Actually, I think the Other in the prologue scene listened for a song when he examined Ser Waymar’s sword. Either the steelsong was not right or they heard nothing.

 

[James Arryn]

Nice thoughts. My only issue is with the moralization. What is happening now that requires a cleansing? We are told war was endemic before AC, that AC was bloody as hell, and the IT war with Dorne was much longer than anything happening now. Why didn’t the world need cleansing then?

Now the idea of corruption and purges IS a real one in history, but it’s one associated with extremism/fanaticism/zealotry. Like the more orthodox/militant waves from NA and their occasional purges of Andalusia. It’s an attractive idea to a certain kind of religious human mind, but I don’t see what hold it would have on non-humans. Why would they care how and how often humans kill other humans? Do they care how often they kill cows? Do they care how men die, or just how many? And, again, what’s happened lately that’s beyond what has come before? 
 

The Others are mysterious, but I think the other explanations…a broken pact, a ward left to slip, just enough time to be forgotten…make more sense than some censors from beyond winter having enough of the Wot5K or w/e. 

 

edit: IOW, I think as written you have made a compelling thematic argument…it makes sense thematically, but I don’t see how it does narratively. 

[Curled Finger]

This is fascinating and remarkably philosophical for a fantasy forum.  I don't disagree with anything anyone has put forth.  I do try to keep foremost in mind that this is a fantasy written by a very talented hippy.  Thus, I expect this to be an antiwar tale about fixing the world, and I have not been disappointed insofar as the antiwar message is concerned.  As a participant in the conversation I would like to clarify my views on just a few things without making this a sword rant.  

Martin stated that the hatching of the dragons was a miraculous event.  The Others were about long before the dragons hatched, though I cannot help but believe the dragons are in some way a response to them even if not directly.  The magic on this world seems to have no real control or controllers.  Because vows are so heavily employed throughout I can only assume this is where some magic resides or is channeled.   At least for humans in Westeros.  It may be their only leash. 

I put a great deal of faith and emphasis is that Rhoynish tale of the Long Night ending with the lesser gods getting together and singing their songs.  This is instructive.  Cooperation is an imperative in ending TLN.  The Lightbringer tale while interesting, could be anything.  I've always thought it was merely pointing to a kinslayer, right or wrong.  In an attempt to rise to this conversation I will point out that we already have Dawn, a more obvious Lightbringer I can't imagine, as well as soon to be at least 12 Valyrian Steel swords that may well have the right making to defeat Others.  Much is made about Nissa Nissa and self sacrifice.   I offer Jon has already made enough sacrifice (and will continue to do so) to be Nissa Nissa and wield the sword to do the trick, whatever that trick is.   

I think what we miss very often in our conversations regarding The Others' return is the slow dwindling of the Giants, COTF and direwolves (only included because they are mentioned in text).  The children know they are dying.  Their greenseer is dying and has been for some time as human lives go.  Westeros, if not the entire planet, was theirs to roam and run until humans exerted their dominion over everything, including land granted to the children in a sworn pact.  Not to get bogged down in pacts here.  The point is the magical folk are dying.  I think they are the connection to the magic or some of the magic on the planet.  When they are truly gone there were will be nothing holding Others back.  I believe it is the near extinction of the magical creatures that is causing The Others' freedom of movement now.  For each magical creature that dies whatever ward holds The Others weakens.  

The Others, like the dragons, are few in number, but command incredible destructive force.  If dragons are nukes, The Others are necromancers with infinite reach and sources.  The Others must be killed as the dragons must be killed.  If there are to be giant kraken, they gotta go, too.  In the end, human beings are dangerous enough with steel.  They should by no means have access to magic to kill each other and the rest of the world off with.  

[Mourning Star]

7 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Drive them back and allow Westeros to start fresh again in spring. But as sure as the seasons move on, the new society will inevitably decay, and the Others will return again.

Maybe. I could go either way on this, because magic. Could there be some magic perpetually repeating cycle, sure it’s fantasy. But, in general things change, societies rise and fall, species evolve and go extinct. Even the existence of repeating patterns doesn’t ensure that things will be the same forever.

7 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Well we could dispute the histories, as they do in-world. I think Hoster Blackwood makes the point, when speaking with Jaime.

When the histories are disputed in the text, it begs the reader to question them.

7 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Unfortunately, when it comes to the Long Night we are in the fog of legend, be it Old Nan's stories or the legend of Lightbringer. However, from a narrative point of view I think legends must have value to the story or else they're just a waste of ink.

Absolutely, but there are a lot of ways for a story to have value beyond the literal truth.

7 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Based on the legend, I believe Lightbringer was steel, because much is made about the tempering of the blade.
 

I’m inclined to think it was Dawn, and so not really “steel” in the conventional sense. Either way, these are both different than iron.

The Others hated cold iron, the sword of the Last Hero burned hot in battle.

The iron swords in the crypts on the Starks and the tales of Other’s hating iron, point to it existing in Westeros before the Andals came, but at the same time it’s made pretty clear it wasn’t in common use by the First Men, who used bronze.

7 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I think it's the same sword as the Last Hero's blade of dragonsteel.

I’m inclined to agree, however again, I think the most obvious answer is that it refers to Dawn.

7 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I posted something called GRRM's riddle of steel a while back that goes into this in more detail, but I'll quickly run though the relevance of Azor Ahai's attempts to temper the blade.

I’m not sure myself what to make of the details here, but I enjoy your take.

24 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 I think what we miss very often in our conversations regarding The Others' return is the slow dwindling of the Giants, COTF and direwolves (only included because they are mentioned in text).  The children know they are dying.  Their greenseer is dying and has been for some time as human lives go.  Westeros, if not the entire planet, was theirs to roam and run until humans exerted their dominion over everything, including land granted to the children in a sworn pact.  Not to get bogged down in pacts here.  The point is the magical folk are dying.  I think they are the connection to the magic or some of the magic on the planet.  When they are truly gone there were will be nothing holding Others back.  I believe it is the near extinction of the magical creatures that is causing The Others' freedom of movement now.  For each magical creature that dies whatever ward holds The Others weakens. 

So I actually lean the other way on this… let’s look at Leaf’s analogy of the wood (Westeros):

And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air. "Where are the rest of you?" Bran asked Leaf, once.

"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

Men are the deer in this analogy, overrunning Westeros, as there are no wolves to hunt them.

The Others are the wolves.

The Children tried fighting, we know they aren’t inherently peaceful. Now they sing sad songs… as their way of fighting.

I think Leaf is basically defending the return of the Others to Bran here, by saying that Men are in need of culling.

I suspect that the Children Bran has met north of the Wall, and the bastard sorcerer called Bloodraven, are responsible for the return of the Others.

I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that their are factions of Children, much like how there are factions of Men. I would look for a faction more sympathetic to Men and peace in the God’s Eye.

The wisest of both races prevailed, and the chief heroes and rulers of both sides met upon the isle in the Gods Eye to form the Pact.

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

Men are the deer in this analogy, overrunning Westeros, as there are no wolves to hunt them.

The Others are the wolves.

The Children tried fighting, we know they aren’t inherently peaceful. Now they sing sad songs… as their way of fighting.

I think Leaf is basically defending the return of the Others to Bran here.

I suspect that the Children Bran has met north of the Wall, and the bastard sorcerer called Bloodraven, are responsible for the return of the Others.

I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that their are factions of Children, much like how there are factions of Men. I would look for a faction more sympathetic to Men and peace in the God’s Eye.

The wisest of both races prevailed, and the chief heroes and rulers of both sides met upon the isle in the Gods Eye to form the Pact.

That is really interesting.  I've never been one for the COTF/Bloodraven are bad guys, but what do I know.  It is an interesting take and I get it from that point of view.  Perhaps there are wisest folk on the God's Eye. 

[three-eyed monkey]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I take everything Old Nan says with a huge grain of salt.

I see it different and I feel the same about Ned's dream or Dany's visions. These are story-telling devices that GRRM uses to impart information to the reader. The information is in there, the words are chosen carefully, but some times we need to tease out the clue through symbolism or other means.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Based on what we actually know about the Others, which is precious little, two things stand out:

There is no indication that they are moving south or are even remotely interested in the Wall. If they mean to invade, they are taking their sweet time about it.

We've only seen a grand total of five or six Others, so there is no reason to think they exist in great numbers or haven't been skulking about the Haunted Forest for milennia.

They are taking their time but book six of a seven book series seems about right to me. I don't buy that they're not important to the story, as that would make huge swathes of the story irrelevant in my opinion.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And hold on to your hat for this one: there is only vague, circumstantial evidence that the Others are the ones raising and controlling the wights.

I haven't heard this theory before, maybe you could explain who is raising the wights and how all that works because I'm struggling to see what the point of that would be? Is the only evidence for that theory the fact that there is only circumstantial evidence to the wights being raised by the Others?

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Couple this with the clear statements from Martin that he is not doing dark lords and dark minions and the ultimate battle between good and evil for the fate of all mankind, and it's pretty clear that the Others do not represent the main enemy and will not feature highly in the climax of the book.

I think those statements from GRRM support the OP. I didn't mention anything about a dark lord. This is a story about the conflict of the human heart, right? I'll quote what I said in the last paragraph of the OP.

On 3/8/2023 at 6:54 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

The truth is that mankind is its own worst enemy, the true enemy the realm has lost sight of, because most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it. It takes strength and courage to take a hard look at yourself, and it’s much easier to place the blame on Others.

As for the Others not featuring in the climax of the story, I feel that would be very poor story-telling. See how that went in the show. Not very satisfying, if I'm being kind.

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Nice thoughts. My only issue is with the moralization. What is happening now that requires a cleansing? We are told war was endemic before AC, that AC was bloody as hell, and the IT war with Dorne was much longer than anything happening now. Why didn’t the world need cleansing then?

We're told the Others cannot pass so long as the Wall stands tall and the men of the Night's Watch stay true. That has been the case for years according to Maester Aemon.

Quote

 

"The men who formed the Night's Watch knew that only their courage shielded the realm from the darkness to the north. They knew they must have no divided loyalties to weaken their resolve. So they vowed they would have no wives nor children.

"Yet brothers they had, and sisters. Mothers who gave them birth, fathers who gave them names. They came from a hundred quarrelsome kingdoms, and they knew times may change, but men do not. So they pledged as well that the Night's Watch would take no part in the battles of the realms it guarded.

"They kept their pledge. When Aegon slew Black Harren and claimed his kingdom, Harren's brother was Lord Commander on the Wall, with ten thousand swords to hand. He did not march. In the days when the Seven Kingdoms were seven kingdoms, not a generation passed that three or four of them were not at war. The Watch took no part. When the Andals crossed the narrow sea and swept away the kingdoms of the First Men, the sons of the fallen kings held true to their vows and remained at their posts. So it has always been, for years beyond counting. Such is the price of honor.

 

 

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

When the histories are disputed in the text, it begs the reader to question them.

I absolutely agree.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Absolutely, but there are a lot of ways for a story to have value beyond the literal truth.

I agree again. But I'm not saying Old Nan is telling us the literal truth, because on the surface her story paints a different picture than what I'm proposing in the Op. I'm saying that GRRM has hidden clues to the truth in her story, by use of symbolism and such.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I’m inclined to think it was Dawn, and so not really “steel” in the conventional sense. Either way, these are both different than iron.

Well, I consider Dawn an obvious red herring, but I understand why people think it's the sword.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I see it different and I feel the same about Ned's dream or Dany's visions. These are story-telling devices that GRRM uses to impart information to the reader. The information is in there, the words are chosen carefully, but some times we need to tease out the clue through symbolism or other means.

They are taking their time but book six of a seven book series seems about right to me. I don't buy that they're not important to the story, as that would make huge swathes of the story irrelevant in my opinion.

I haven't heard this theory before, maybe you could explain who is raising the wights and how all that works because I'm struggling to see what the point of that would be? Is the only evidence for that theory the fact that there is only circumstantial evidence to the wights being raised by the Others?

I think those statements from GRRM support the OP. I didn't mention anything about a dark lord. This is a story about the conflict of the human heart, right? I'll quote what I said in the last paragraph of the OP.

As for the Others not featuring in the climax of the story, I feel that would be very poor story-telling. See how that went in the show. Not very satisfying, if I'm being kind.

We're told the Others cannot pass so long as the Wall stands tall and the men of the Night's Watch stay true. That has been the case for years according to Maester Aemon.

 

Again, Old Nan doesn't even get the present right. How can she possibly be trusted with the ancient, mythological past?

Remember the tale of the sealord's cat? Dont trust what people say. Look with your eyes, hear with your ears, and the truth you will know. This was not just a minor plot point. This is Martin telling readers how to approach the text. Words are wind. Facts matter, and the fact is that there is no indication whatsoever that the Others are moving sough, and only the barest circumstantial evidence that they are connected to the wights.

I never said the Other's aren't important to the story, just not to expect them to play the role of the evil players in a doomsday battle for the world. Martin has been very clear on this subject numerous times: that is a tired old trope that's been done to death in fantasy literature, and he is doing something different in asioaf. And yes, he also said this story, like all stories, is about the human heart in conflict with itself, not with magical, non-human ice-hearts.

Who else could be raising the wights? Take your pick. Bloodraven, the horror in Bran's coma dream, the children, the green men, any number of shadowbinders, necromancers, mages or even maesters (there's one in King's Landing right now who seems to be able to raise the dead.) Or it could be the loss of some magical ward that had kept them down all these years, or just a natural phenomenon. The point is, the evidence for the Others being behind this is sketchy at best.

So ultimately, this all comes down to reader expectations. Readers expect the Others to be evil, the wights are their evil minions and it will all come to a head in the final battle. But judging by the five books so far, Martin loves nothing more than to subvert readers' expectations.