Corvo the Crow Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 For all his claims of not liking tropes and subverting them, GRRM seems to be using a whole lot of tropes. What are some you have noticed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 Do you mean specifically Tv Tropes tropes or just in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said: Do you mean specifically Tv Tropes tropes or just in general? Anything that comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Anything that comes to mind. The Targaryens fit the Beautiful Elite trope quite well. Jon as the hidden prince. Typical unwashed/dirty medieval peasants even though they had public bathhouses in quite a few places up until the reformation when it was seen as indecent and they got rid of it, only to bring them back in Victorian times. I hope Daenerys isn't Azor Ahai or it will be very generic tropey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said: I hope Daenerys isn't Azor Ahai or it will be very generic tropey. Well she is already the White(r than White) saviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Well she is already the White(r than White) saviour. I know some people might not like the sound of this but maybe GRRM is trying to do something with the group of platinum-blond haired, purple-blue eyed people who see themselves as superior to 'lesser men' and publish things like 'The Doctrine of Exceptionalism', think they are above the gods and do horrific experiments on people they enslaved to do work...Not to mention the similarity in names... Some kind of trope deconstruction at work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 I mean, tropes aren't necessarily a thing you decide to use or not. They're just... there. Most writers don't sit down and say "I'm going to use tropes x, y and z"; they come up with a story, and that story happens to be consistent with those tropes. A story that contained no tropes would, I suspect, be virtually unrecognisable as a story. And a subversion of a trope is still using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 Hidden prince -even from himself. Exiled former royalty Unconventional tomboy likes to play with swords. Highborn maiden only looks forward to nice marriage - especially with a prince. Feudalistic system - standard for 80's-90's fantasy. Most characters are upper class or elite. Even in stories that involve non-elite characters, they are usually in proximity to someone important. Tropes are used because they work. People are used to them, and like reading or watching them, to a point. Too much can become unimaginative, too little can be incoherent or disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 48 minutes ago, Alester Florent said: I mean, tropes aren't necessarily a thing you decide to use or not. They're just... there. Most writers don't sit down and say "I'm going to use tropes x, y and z"; they come up with a story, and that story happens to be consistent with those tropes. A story that contained no tropes would, I suspect, be virtually unrecognisable as a story. And a subversion of a trope is still using it. 2 minutes ago, Nevets said: Hidden prince -even from himself. Exiled former royalty Unconventional tomboy likes to play with swords. Highborn maiden only looks forward to nice marriage - especially with a prince. Feudalistic system - standard for 80's-90's fantasy. Most characters are upper class or elite. Even in stories that involve non-elite characters, they are usually in proximity to someone important. Tropes are used because they work. People are used to them, and like reading or watching them, to a point. Too much can become unimaginative, too little can be incoherent or disappointing. Then why does he claim he won't use tropes, he'll revert them etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Then why does he claim he won't use tropes, he'll revert them etc. Various possibilities: He doesn't really understand what tropes are and assumes they are a synonym for "cliché" or the like He thinks of himself as a writer who is original and subversive and dislikes the suggestion that he's writing to any kind of formula He's fed up of being asked about them and is trying to shut the discussion down Any/all of the above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 3 minutes ago, Alester Florent said: Various possibilities: He doesn't really understand what tropes are and assumes they are a synonym for "cliché" or the like He thinks of himself as a writer who is original and subversive and dislikes the suggestion that he's writing to any kind of formula He's fed up of being asked about them and is trying to shut the discussion down Any/all of the above I myself am not even sure exactly what a trope is or how it differs from traditional storytelling techniques or simply common practices. And much of what I mentioned is either subverted or necessary. The hidden prince is hidden not only from the characters, but from most readers as well. The highborn maiden is tired of being marriage bait and is forging her own path. Which might be a trope itself, though if so, then practically anything is. And things like characters from the elite are necessary for a story about political maneuvering and the struggle for power. And if you are modelling your setting on medieval Europe, feudalism is probably a requirement. Plus, it helps add conflict. The fact is, there's only so many stories you can tell. It's how you tell them that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 Rule of cool. For instance when a warlord has huge army his hostile older brother gains ability to produce a Shadow Terminator. Or dudes (+ 1 dudette) whose main motive is to become rich and have many concubines send most of their forces to places there are neither any gold or young women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 Fake out deaths, is a trope. GRRM seems to love doing these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 23 minutes ago, Nevets said: The fact is, there's only so many stories you can tell. It's how you tell them that matters. Yes. This is what I like about GRRM, for all his shortcomings in many areas, and even the story telling, I really like reading his PoVs, he's done a real good job with most even for characters that aren't likable. I really enjoy reading Dany for example, I mildly liked her before starting to dissect the books and now I don't like her because all the atrocities she has committed and continues to commit and her justifications for them, but I really enjoy reading them. Now this is a feudal setting and atrocities are part of your day to day life, one of my favorite characters, Stannis, also does some but it is their reasoning, their justifications etc. Cersei is a horrible person and doesn't even care about it, Stannis and Robb etc. does as a part of the norms of their society, Tywin is also a horrible person and unlike Cersei actually has brains to use, he seemingly confirms to those norms but take it to the extreme and when he sees an oppurtunity, no longer acts according to them. Dany strives to be good(no denying that) and yet does commit quite horrible atrocities, and even worse waives them off. She's quite arbitrary too. It is these hypocricies of her that make me dislike her. Compare to Jon, since hate squads mostly like to bash him, Jon does everything in his power to act according to his society's norms, does everything in his power to preserve life, Janos who killed his father he doesn't outright take out, his acts have been washed off but worse than that is Janos tried to kill Jon before he was LC and even then he gives the guy not just a chance but several chances until his subordination comes to the point he has no option but to kill him or else whole Watch will collapse(or he won't get Sansa as a love interest with his heroism wink wink.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phylum of Alexandria Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 I think at his best, GRRM injects life into the tropes rather than avoid them or subvert them. As silly as it should seem, the Beauty and the Beast touches in Sansa and Sandor's interactions actually feel inspired. But...he's not always 100% at his best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 As I understand it, George is not avoiding tropes, but attempting to subvert them. To do that, you must use tropes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerDuncan Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 Davos and Hotah, unflinchingly loyal lieutenants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 12, 2023 Author Share Posted March 12, 2023 Dany employs a "totally unnecessary translator", and in addition to being a White Savior, could somewhat pass off as a Mighty Whitey, maybe. She comes from a more medieval background while the Slaver's Bay are people of antiquity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 12, 2023 Author Share Posted March 12, 2023 7 hours ago, sweetsunray said: As I understand it, George is not avoiding tropes, but attempting to subvert them. To do that, you must use tropes. Does a spectacularly bad job at it then, confirming to many of them like Dany the White Savior as discussed in the other thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 19 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Does a spectacularly bad job at it then, confirming to many of them like Dany the White Savior as discussed in the other thread. IIRC aDoS hasn't been published yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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