Shade of the Evening Post 1st Edition

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Nevets said:

I suspect that Shae's perjury was Cersei's doing.  She mentions at one point promises of a nice house, jewelry, etc. for her testimony.  Though she denied it to her because Shae couldn't tell her where Sansa was.

I doubt Tywin had anything to do with Shae's testimony.  My perception is that he truly believes Tyrion is guilty.  Which is not unreasonable.  If I didn't have access to Tyrion's thoughts, I would probably think he's guilty as well.  If Shae was spying for him then, he would know she's lying - to someone.  He probably figured it didn't matter since there was ample evidence of Tyrion's guilt anyway.

How do you think Shae surfaced?  Did Varys give her up?  Did she walk on up to Big Daddy and say guess what?  

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, LongRider said:

No, he sold Jeyne to Tywin for Roose to use as fArya.

Oh of course, sorry about that.   

[LongRider]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

How do you think Shae surfaced?  Did Varys give her up?  Did she walk on up to Big Daddy and say guess what?  

Tywin and Cersei both knew about her, so either one could have approached her.   Offered a few coins and luxuries and Shae threw Tyrion under the cart in no time would be my guess.  Of course, don't think she really had many options at that time. 

[Nevets]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

How do you think Shae surfaced?  Did Varys give her up?  Did she walk on up to Big Daddy and say guess what?  

She was Sansa's maid so I would guess she was approached on that basis.  Her testimony was that Sansa and Tyrion conspired in Joffrey's murder, so Cersei may not have known about her relationship with Tyrion.  And Cersei denied her the bribe she had offered on the basis that she didn't believe Shae didn't know Sansa's whereabouts despite being her maid.  Nothing about Tyrion.  So I think the connection was Sansa.

 

[Nevets]

13 minutes ago, LongRider said:

No, he sold Jeyne to Tywin for Roose to use as fArya.

I hope you're not mixing Jeyne Poole with Jeyne Westerling.  Jeyne Westerling probably doesn't know of Tywin's involvement with her marriage to Robb and definitely has no connection to Littlefinger.  Jeyne Poole is the one Littlefinger provided as FArya.

If course, both are alive and free, and primed to cause trouble for their enemies.

[Curled Finger]

@LongRider & @Nevets, nice speculation.  All this and she still ends up in the Hand's bed wearing the Hand's necklace.  Hope it was a grand few days for her as they were her last.  Loyalty is cheap in Westeros.  

[LongRider]

I realized after posting that Tywin was already dead when LF sold Jeyne to Roose.  LF seems to have kept the news of Ramsy's wedding from the Vale, how long can that last, I wonder?

[Hugorfonics]

36 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@Hugorfonics stupid thing won't let me quote and rebut in the same space.  You're not really falling for the Shae thing?  You are pulling my leg, right?  C'mon, bud, you don't believe the story?  The whole thing stinks with Shae.

Love stinks

36 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Where are you getting this father rape thing from?  That's not in the text anywhere. 

Quote

“My father made me his kitchen wench,” she said, her mouth twisting. “That was why I ran off.”

“You told me you ran off because your father made you his whore,” he reminded her.

“That too.

 

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Dude, quit watching reruns of Barretta.  Even in Barretta when the bad girl falls in love she doesn't testify against Huggy Bear.  

Lol I'll take your word for it

38 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Other folks here have made the (fairly good) case for Shae's possible spying in Tywin's service.  Without hard evidence, our duty to the public here at the Post is to offer facts and let you come to your own conclusion.  Our conclusion was only that Shae was placed to prove a point by Tywin Lannister. 

What's the point? 

It's just if she was an agent, she wasn't doing much agending. 

39 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You do shed a little light on an often ignored possibility that Cersei did in fact determine that Shae was her brother's consort and put her to questioning.  Did Shae come forward?  To Whom?  Did Varys expose the relationship and whereabouts of Shae?   All good question worth investigating.  

No, Varys did it lol. I mean he said he would, it's too good, too hot. Sansas maid? It writes itself 

[Nevets]

I think as far as Shae ending up with Tyrion in Tywin's camp, she's exactly what she appears to be: a whore who is delighted to find herself a sugar daddy.

I don't think she's any kind of test.  Tywin knows his son, or thinks he does.  And if he wants to treat him badly, it's no less than Tyrion would expect.

2 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I realized after posting that Tywin was already dead when LF sold Jeyne to Roose.  LF seems to have kept the news of Ramsy's wedding from the Vale, how long can that last, I wonder?

No, he was still around.  Jaime saw Jeyne Poole leaving with Steelshanks and confronted Tywin with the knowledge that she was a fake.  

Littlefinger has kept the news of the Ramsay/Arya wedding from Sansa.  We have no idea if anyone else knows.  My guess is that Myranda will mention it to Sansa to gauge her reaction.

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I realized after posting that Tywin was already dead when LF sold Jeyne to Roose.  LF seems to have kept the news of Ramsy's wedding from the Vale, how long can that last, I wonder?

Timeline says the nuptials were held 6/14/99.  Not giving me anything for Alayne TWOW.  It's a great point, though.  I am guessing that with all the incoming visitors at the Vale for the Tourney that news could just pop right there.   You've given us a great idea for next week's edition, though, Thankee, Sai.  

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Love stinks

 

Lol I'll take your word for it

What's the point? 

It's just if she was an agent, she wasn't doing much agending. 

No, Varys did it lol. I mean he said he would, it's too good, too hot. Sansas maid? It writes itself 

Ok, I get it now.  Believe you love crazy kid.  Someone should.  Better you than me this time around.  

[Hugorfonics]

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ok, I get it now.  Believe you love crazy kid.  Someone should.  Better you than me this time around.  

I just love love.  I'ma romantic.

I think the plot of this fumbling agent getting her comeuppance doesn't his as hard in the tragedy department as the girlfriend who was tortured into betrayal

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

I just love love.  I'ma romantic.

I think the plot of this fumbling agent getting her comeuppance doesn't his as hard in the tragedy department as the girlfriend who was tortured into betrayal

Let me remove my stoned reporter persona and just address this as me for a sec.  You know full well I am a sap and I love that there.  I don't buy it, but it's sweet.  What then are you making of old Tyrion's reactions to his circumstances?  He hits Penny when he thinks of Shae, twice I think.  Tyrion is a wreck.  I'm a Tyrion fan and I like his whole falling apart and having to pull himself back together bit.  I am particularly fond of Penny as a dwarf and mirror to himself as a dwarf and bit of reality.  Don't get the big people angry.  I enjoy Tyrion doing tumbling and jousting acts with her.  He claims a piece of himself he was never permitted with Penny and these little mummeries.  No, I don't go THERE with Penny and Tyrion, but I like their weird little communion.  Penny is a nice kid and she sees the good in Tyrion without having to be paid to do so.  I hope that's what she leaves him with and he can pull his act together before she's gone.  Or soon thereafter. 

Tyrion never really thought he was really in love with Shae.  He knew this all along but kept trying to play by his own rules and thumb his nose at his dad.  Tyrion believes he has to buy love, that he is unworthy of any other kind.  In striking Penny I see a man who feels used and duped.  I don't see love, just anger and self recrimination.  What do you see?   

[Hugorfonics]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

He hits Penny when he thinks of Shae, twice I think.  Tyrion is a wreck. 

Tyrion is a wreck, but he only hits Penny once when she was mouthing off on bending the knee to the slavers and how she wishes she was back in time with her brother and not in the middle of a soon to be battlefield. It was more like a snap out of it slap then one backed with emotion. 

13 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm a Tyrion fan and I like his whole falling apart and having to pull himself back together bit.  I am particularly fond of Penny as a dwarf and mirror to himself as a dwarf and bit of reality.  Don't get the big people angry.  I enjoy Tyrion doing tumbling and jousting acts with her.  He claims a piece of himself he was never permitted with Penny and these little mummeries.  No, I don't go THERE with Penny and Tyrion, but I like their weird little communion. 

Yea Penny's great! She totally digs Tyrion btw but hopefully she'll get over it. After all he's already married. Twice. 

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Penny is a nice kid and she sees the good in Tyrion without having to be paid to do so.  I hope that's what she leaves him with and he can pull his act together before she's gone.  Or soon thereafter. 

I hope she doesn't die, she's such an odd ball though so I do wonder what GRRMs plans for her are.

It's cool shes hanging around and not asking for money, but he's also her only means of survival. Its honestly absurd that the second sons warriors are harboring Penny, but the Imps got a heart so he doesn't wanna leave her for dead. She's definitely not bringing anything to the table though unlike Shae Bronn and Shagga and co, but they all were rather fond of Tyrion anyway. Like Lemore 

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Tyrion never really thought he was really in love with Shae. 

Of course he was

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

He knew this all along but kept trying to play by his own rules and thumb his nose at his dad.  Tyrion believes he has to buy love, that he is unworthy of any other kind. 

I don't see that. Shae was his whore like that Dornish lady was Oberyns whore, which she was if you wanna be crass, but it's absurd to think he was leaving money on the dresser. He did pay her but that's as Sansas maid, she wasn't by our definition of the word, a whore. 

That he's always second guessing her compliments and his low self esteem gives her side glances when she advances is thanks to daddy dearest and brother Jaime and the fucked up childhood they put Tyrion through.

26 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

In striking Penny I see a man who feels used and duped.  I don't see love, just anger and self recrimination.  What do you see?   

Quote

Penny looked as though she was about to cry. "Last night I dreamed my brother was alive again. We were jousting before some great lord, riding Crunch and Pretty Pig, and men were throwing roses at us. We were so happy …"

Tyrion slapped her.

It was a soft blow, all in all, a little flick of the wrist, with hardly any force behind it. It did not even leave a mark upon her cheek. But her eyes filled with tears all the same.

"If you want to dream, go back to sleep," he told her. "When you wake up, we'll still be escaped slaves in the middle of a siege. Crunch is dead. The pig as well, most like. Now find some armor and put it on, and never mind where it pinches. The mummer show is over. Fight or hide or shit yourself, as you like, but whatever you decide to do, you'll do it clad in steel."

Maybe I forgot the other part (if so, when?) but here, you know he's a jerk but, definitely good. I mean, he's looking out

[LongRider]

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Tyrion never really thought he was really in love with Shae.  He knew this all along but kept trying to play by his own rules and thumb his nose at his dad.  Tyrion believes he has to buy love, that he is unworthy of any other kind.  In striking Penny I see a man who feels used and duped.  I don't see love, just anger and self recrimination.  What do you see?   

Tyrion wanted to believe that Shea loved him, and he wanted to believe that a little too much.  All the signs were there that she was using him, and he was in such deep denial that that was not the case.  Of course, he was shocked to have her testify at his trial and lie on the stand.  While Tyrion is an intelligent man, he was very, very stupid about Shae.  Like Fox Mulder, he wanted to believe, and wanting to believe doesn't make it true. 

[LongRider]

59 minutes ago, Nevets said:

No, he was still around.  Jaime saw Jeyne Poole leaving with Steelshanks and confronted Tywin with the knowledge that she was a fake.

Oh, well, I had forgotten that.  Jamie has the goods then, very interesting. 

[Nevets]

7 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Oh, well, I had forgotten that.  Jamie has the goods then, very interesting. 

He told Brienne as well, that the Arya with the Boltons was fake and not to go chasing after her.  The real question, of course, is whether anyone up North, besides the Boltons, knows.

[Curled Finger]

@Hugorfonicsand @LongRider  I actually reread Tyrion's ACOK & ASOS chapters for this article.  He is constantly telling himself he's wrong to be doing all the things he does with regard to Shae.  Maybe that is 2nd guessing and I just didn't pick up on it.  He does think of her fondly but it's more along the lines of just not wanting to be doing what he is doing which is bothersome and wanting to be in an easy place.  My take exclusively.  He does tell Shae Tysha's story so why doesn't she just bail?  Methinks for the same reason she doesn't leave or take the serious caution both Tyrion and Varys throw at her.  I think @Nevetsabove mentioned Shae was just relieved to have a serious sugar daddy.  Tyrion has offered Shae a virtual retirement package complete with a home and what sounded like a lifetime stipend to just leave a place that was to be sacked very shortly.  Still she will not go and prefers to work in the kitchen?  I think this is where my greatest stumbling block lies.  Shae positions herself contrary to her own well being and common sense.  A professional prostitute would take the money and run I would think.  She knew she was causing a lot of trouble staying yet became that immoveable object.  

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Nevets said:

He told Brienne as well, that the Arya with the Boltons was fake and not to go chasing after her.  The real question, of course, is whether anyone up North, besides the Boltons, knows.

Didn't Barbary Dustin give a clue that she's on to the game in this? 

[Hugorfonics]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@Hugorfonicsand @LongRider  I actually reread Tyrion's ACOK & ASOS chapters for this article.  He is constantly telling himself he's wrong to be doing all the things he does with regard to Shae.  Maybe that is 2nd guessing and I just didn't pick up on it.  He does think of her fondly but it's more along the lines of just not wanting to be doing what he is doing which is bothersome and wanting to be in an easy place.  My take exclusively.  He does tell Shae Tysha's story so why doesn't she just bail?  Methinks for the same reason she doesn't leave or take the serious caution both Tyrion and Varys throw at her.  I think @Nevetsabove mentioned Shae was just relieved to have a serious sugar daddy.  Tyrion has offered Shae a virtual retirement package complete with a home and what sounded like a lifetime stipend to just leave a place that was to be sacked very shortly.  Still she will not go and prefers to work in the kitchen?  I think this is where my greatest stumbling block lies.  Shae positions herself contrary to her own well being and common sense.  A professional prostitute would take the money and run I would think.  She knew she was causing a lot of trouble staying yet became that immoveable object.  

How long was she in the kitchen for? Iirc it wasn't long at all and then she works for Lollys and later Sansa.

Also what money? And run where? Back to her father so she can raped? She got lucky that thousands of men with food and stuff were marching across the Riverlands and followed that camp. Now she's safe in a castle (and if you wanna believe, which why the hell not, on the right arm of a great man, the hand of the king, her giant of a Lannister) why go back outside? Plus she's a stupid kid, what 18 year old thinks rationally?