Shade of the Evening Post 1st Edition

[Alester Florent]

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk it's so perverse. And Pete is perverse but in a different way lol. That LF is a pimp first is mainly I think an HBO thing, because that show was basically just an expensive porno.

The show definitely ramped up the pimp angle but he still owns brothels. He's a shady guy who can always find a use for a young virgin even if no other opportunities arise to deploy Jeyne.

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

The show definitely ramped up the pimp angle but he still owns brothels. He's a shady guy who can always find a use for a young virgin even if no other opportunities arise to deploy Jeyne.

He's plotting on turning Sansa into a great lord. Kidnapping and whipping her friend because there's nothing on TV doesn't make sense.

[Alester Florent]

41 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He's plotting on turning Sansa into a great lord. Kidnapping and whipping her friend because there's nothing on TV doesn't make sense.

Depending on how you look at Littlefinger, he's either a chessmaster with contingencies for his contingencies, or he's an opportunist who just grabs at chances as they come along. Either way, if there's a spare northern noble girl knocking around King's Landing who nobody's going to miss, he might as well take her, whether because he has an actual plan or just because she might come in handy later - and if not, he can always just "sell" her for a profit.

That Jeyne is Sansa's friend doesn't enter into it (except perhaps that isolating her from her friends is useful because it limits her support network and makes her more reliant on him and his stooges). Sansa doesn't know the half of what Littlefinger has done and he doubtless intends to keep it that way, because if she found out she'd run a mile.

[Hugorfonics]

53 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Sansa doesn't know the half of what Littlefinger has done and he doubtless intends to keep it that way, because if she found out she'd run a mile.

Exactly! That's my whole point. And she has to find out.

 Ramsay has captured the media. 

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Tales are told of you, Ramsay. I hear them everywhere. People fear you."

"Good."

And you can't escape the media 

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There's a new High Septon, did you know? Oh, and the Night's Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark's."

"Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised.

Meanwhile Petyr is sending Sansa up north

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you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?"

So why is he sending her to confront fArya when he knows damn well how she'll react?

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Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him."

 

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk it's so perverse. And Pete is perverse but in a different way lol. That LF is a pimp first is mainly I think an HBO thing, because that show was basically just an expensive porno.

She's always had that. For example at the first drop of snow she builds a Winterfell. But yea armies and all that. I mean that's how affc ends, with Petyr promising Sansa a war. With soldiers and everything.

A one handed knight? That'd actually be great. How have they never interacted?

But Brienne comes to Sansa and Petyr will just tell her to get lost. 

Definitely fun, and while I totally see this child running into mommies arms cuz, of course, when she finds out it's not Arya but Jeyne, who Sansa kinda threw out, that's where's she's gotta be headed.  Cuz she's in need.

Speaking of fun and Cat and Sansa and fArya. 

Why do we believe Dany and not Young Griff? Could it be because Dany has the correct hair color? Or the correct pet? Or not hanging out with liars?

Does Sansa have the correct hair color? Correct pet? Hanging out with the honest? If Stoneheart rightly believes that fArya is a fools chase then why would she be convinced about fSansa?(Alaynes? What a name! If she called herself Cat like she wanted to then that'd be an ice breaker, but of course Petyr likes it neat)

Not really, my friend, Little Finger is an opportunist before anything.  His taking Jeyne Poole has a reason.  It's simple deduction that puts her in brothels.  She's 12 so where would she best serve his purposes.  It's doubtful she's a great money launderer or thief.  It's unlikely he was so prescient to know the little girl would play so largely into his future plans with Tywin.  'Twas only luck that he had her at all.  Right time, right girl.  It was simply a good move to take Jeyne at the time and I haven't the imagination to see what else he might have done with her.

Oh yes, quite right about home.  I think I posted and headed off to reality.  I thought about your being a romantic and wondered what you might think of Sansa and Harry rushing off like foolish Young Turks,  Northbound and alone.  Of course Harry would die some horrible death but Sansa would be beyond LF's grasp and have the ability to get home finally (though not the way we anticipated).  That older guy with Brienne would be Hyle Hunt, not Jamie.  Jamie would be really busy at this point!  

Not necessarily a romantic, I just like the idea of Little Finger's carefully laid plans blowing up in his face and Sansa being able to grow a pair of cajones.  

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, Nevets said:

I suspect that any interest Baelish had in Jeyne for his brothel would be based on her age, not her heritage.  11/12-year-olds are hard to come by, if you're into that sort of thing so paying customers should be available.  

If Littlefinger has been hiding news of Arya's marriage, I suspect Sansa would not be happy,and might start wondering what else he is hiding.

Brienne's arrival could be interesting.  It's worth noting Sansa knows Podrick and would recognize either Jaime or Sandor.  I tend to link Brienne to Arya, but I can imagine Brienne showing up with two squires.  In any case, that would probably take a while.  Sansa is going to need time to figure out what Littlefinger is, and was, up to and what to do about it.  And I think she'll need to do it on her own.

Sansa is in a strange place in the Alayne TWOW chapter...if it remains unchanged.  Lots of moving parts.  So many people coming into her space and lots of drama.  This tourney screams for intruders and intrigue.  The chapter begins with Sansa thinking about her father Ned but very quickly turns into this Alayne persona who thinks of Baelish as her father.  You know I think this is just bizarre.  I think it speaks volumes on Sansa's intestinal fortitude and will.  She is a lot stronger than she's given credit for so much of the time.  

As you point out, pretty much any one could show up at this tournament.  Shadrach is already there and we should be on the lookout for others in the form of mystery knights in the melee.  Whether this is how and when Sansa makes her escape is anyone's guess.  Personally I would love to see her get away all quietly right under LF's nose and see the Vale lords just use LF for kindling for a giant bon fire.  

Still, what do you suppose happens when Sansa is still stuck in the Vale and does find out Arya's married to Ramsay Bolton?  Jon Snow is dead?  Stannis is marching on Winterfell?  

[Hugorfonics]

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Not really, my friend, Little Finger is an opportunist before anything.  His taking Jeyne Poole has a reason.  It's simple deduction that puts her in brothels.  She's 12 so where would she best serve his purposes.  It's doubtful she's a great money launderer or thief.  It's unlikely he was so prescient to know the little girl would play so largely into his future plans with Tywin.  'Twas only luck that he had her at all.  Right time, right girl.  It was simply a good move to take Jeyne at the time and I haven't the imagination to see what else he might have done with her.

Yea, I suppose. We do know LF shoots from the hip as his plans change in acok at the whims of Tyrions sense of humor. Twas only luck...

She's a minor lords kid? Poole is noble? That she was "trained" with scars of a whip definitely shows he wasnt a gentleman or anything, I'm not really sure that puts her in a brothel though. I'd think if word got out it'd definitely look bad, in terms of monetary it's a risky investment.

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Oh yes, quite right about home.  I think I posted and headed off to reality.  I thought about your being a romantic and wondered what you might think of Sansa and Harry rushing off like foolish Young Turks,  Northbound and alone. 

Huh? Haven't thought about a scenario like that, why would they do that? Fuck it, I'm down! Yea screw the system, all they need is each other!

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Of course Harry would die some horrible death

Oh no!

16 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

but Sansa would be beyond LF's grasp and have the ability to get home finally (though not the way we anticipated).  That older guy with Brienne would be Hyle Hunt,

(He'd be ancient for Sansa who thinks 15 year old Loras is kinda old) 

That Brinne brings Sansa home? That's kinda interesting I guess, but to what end? I mean despite the general mood I'm quite content so far with Harry and wouldn't mind them living happily ever after in obscurity. Would Brienne be happily ever after though with Jaime?

(You know Harrys kinda pompous and an ass but so is Alayne, and if we wanna be honest so is Sansa. Does he have the best track record? Girl, who are you to be choosey? Like Daario, hes kinda, strange? But he makes Dany happy so, who cares? They're both cool in my book, just know where your bed is and everything will probably be alright. Also, I like almost every character in asoiaf but if it's not directly impacting Tyrion or Sansa and to a lesser degree Arya Dany and Theon, I just don't really care that much lol. Fate of Jeyne, Brienne, Pod, Harry, LF and the entire Vale? Meh. Fate of Sansa? That's why I'm reading)

24 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Jamie would be really busy at this point!  

It's just some of the best writing in asoiaf is with Cersei and Sansa, the complex relationship they have is just so great and horrible. And then Tyrion, well, they're married and it's not like their interactions arent noteworthy. Which just leaves Jaime, so I think theyll also have if not some deep bond then at least some great lines

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Still, what do you suppose happens when Sansa is still stuck in the Vale and does find out Arya's married to Ramsay Bolton?  Jon Snow is dead?  Stannis is marching on Winterfell?  

Arya and Ramsay! How can she do anything but march?

Stannis already matched, who? 

Jon is dead is interesting. Does it call for a military response? That's kinda drastic, maybe if she was Arya. But like how Alayne is really just a fSansa but we know better, if Jon is dead, and comes back to life claiming to now be king of Winterfell the Trident and KL for all I know, well that looks a bit more like a deranged fJon from a logical point of view. Because a that's crazy, despite whatever Robbs will has to say, or you know, Rheagars and b, people don't just come back from the dead despite all of those people who do

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Depending on how you look at Littlefinger, he's either a chessmaster with contingencies for his contingencies, or he's an opportunist who just grabs at chances as they come along. Either way, if there's a spare northern noble girl knocking around King's Landing who nobody's going to miss, he might as well take her, whether because he has an actual plan or just because she might come in handy later - and if not, he can always just "sell" her for a profit.

That Jeyne is Sansa's friend doesn't enter into it (except perhaps that isolating her from her friends is useful because it limits her support network and makes her more reliant on him and his stooges). Sansa doesn't know the half of what Littlefinger has done and he doubtless intends to keep it that way, because if she found out she'd run a mile.

Thanks for joining in the conversation.  I will take a bit, the tiniest bit, of exception with Sansa not knowing half of what LF has done.  She's been on the receiving end of his unwanted affections and witnessed the murder of her aunt so I think she is fully aware of what he can do.  Or perhaps I mean to say she's frightened of him.  I would be.  I think that's where she's able to divide her thoughts and retreat into this Alayne persona completely.  Gag.  

Speaking of unwanted affections do you think LF will allow his precious Alayne to wed anyone?  He seems to be encouraging her seduce Harry, to seal the deal as it were.  I'm not convinced LF would actually allow anything physical here.  He's creepy that way, or at least seems to be.  As our friend @Hugorfonics says, it is a mindfuck.  

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, I suppose. We do know LF shoots from the hip as his plans change in acok at the whims of Tyrions sense of humor. Twas only luck...

She's a minor lords kid? Poole is noble? That she was "trained" with scars of a whip definitely shows he wasnt a gentleman or anything, I'm not really sure that puts her in a brothel though. I'd think if word got out it'd definitely look bad, in terms of monetary it's a risky investment.

Huh? Haven't thought about a scenario like that, why would they do that? Fuck it, I'm down! Yea screw the system, all they need is each other!

Oh no!

(He'd be ancient for Sansa who thinks 15 year old Loras is kinda old) 

That Brinne brings Sansa home? That's kinda interesting I guess, but to what end? I mean despite the general mood I'm quite content so far with Harry and wouldn't mind them living happily ever after in obscurity. Would Brienne be happily ever after though with Jaime?

(You know Harrys kinda pompous and an ass but so is Alayne, and if we wanna be honest so is Sansa. Does he have the best track record? Girl, who are you to be choosey? Like Daario, hes kinda, strange? But he makes Dany happy so, who cares? They're both cool in my book, just know where your bed is and everything will probably be alright. Also, I like almost every character in asoiaf but if it's not directly impacting Tyrion or Sansa and to a lesser degree Arya Dany and Theon, I just don't really care that much lol. Fate of Jeyne, Brienne, Pod, Harry, LF and the entire Vale? Meh. Fate of Sansa? That's why I'm reading)

It's just some of the best writing in asoiaf is with Cersei and Sansa, the complex relationship they have is just so great and horrible. And then Tyrion, well, they're married and it's not like their interactions arent noteworthy. Which just leaves Jaime, so I think theyll also have if not some deep bond then at least some great lines

Arya and Ramsay! How can she do anything but march?

Stannis already matched, who? 

Jon is dead is interesting. Does it call for a military response? That's kinda drastic, maybe if she was Arya. But like how Alayne is really just a fSansa but we know better, if Jon is dead, and comes back to life claiming to now be king of Winterfell the Trident and KL for all I know, well that looks a bit more like a deranged fJon from a logical point of view. Because a that's crazy, despite whatever Robbs will has to say, or you know, Rheagars and b, people don't just come back from the dead despite all of those people who do

Oh I live for the few precious posts that light you up! 

[LongRider]

The tourney in the Vale is bringing in competitors and their entourages, so that means people and that means gossip.  Who likes gossip?  Myranda, and she likes flirting with all the young men so she may hear much.  She may be a good source for hearing and repeating interesting bits of news.  Let's hope so!  If Sansa hears that Arya has married Ramsay, would she go to LF and ask him about if he knew?  What interesting news, scandals and chitchat might she put in Sansa's ear?

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, LongRider said:

The tourney in the Vale is bringing in competitors and their entourages, so that means people and that means gossip.  Who likes gossip?  Myranda, and she likes flirting with all the young men so she may hear much.  She may be a good source for hearing and repeating interesting bits of news.  Let's hope so!  If Sansa hears that Arya has married Ramsay, would she go to LF and ask him about if he knew?  What interesting news, scandals and chitchat might she put in Sansa's ear?

That right there is the question.  Who can Sansa really trust? At least Jeyne sorta had Theon/Reek after the fact.  I don't know if Myranda is simply provocative or undercover FBI for her dad.  Something is at play with her, just not certain what.  It's easier in the North as we see through private conversation that there are conspiracies in the works.  We don't really get much of that.  Some grain price fixing, some fancy hostage taking, some fanciful word play from Shadrach, but nothing really overt.  The Vale has been in stasis for the entire story, contained in it's own private withdrawal eager to join the fray.  

After all that typing and musing I wonder if it isn't even a matter of trust.  Is any information that would come to Sansa a vehicle for her own manipulation of Little Finger?  

[LongRider]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

The Vale has been in stasis for the entire story, contained in it's own private withdrawal eager to join the fray.  

This really the crux of the matter.  

 

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

After all that typing and musing I wonder if it isn't even a matter of trust.  Is any information that would come to Sansa a vehicle for her own manipulation of Little Finger?  

That could be one possible outcome, but perhaps not the only one.

[Nevets]

@Curled Finger @LongRider @Hugorfonics

A lot to unpack here.

Jeyne Poole - I'm not sure why Baelish would put her in his brothel initially.  She is highborn, can read and write, and has experience as a lady's companion and maid.  I would have expected to be working as a companion, servant, child caretaker. something like that.  Any female the right age can do sex work.  Jeyne has education and experience.  I think something went wrong somewhere along the line, and she wound up at the brothel by default.  Certainly not because of FArya.  That was a late development.  I think we'll find out what happened eventually.  Those marks on her back are a Chekhov's Gun if I ever saw one.  My guess is she'll wind up in Braavos and run into Arya.  Should be an interesting reunion.

The Vale - The Vale is important because Sansa is there.  No Sansa, no Vale story.  Sansa is there to gain knowledge and experience in influence and politics.  She will learn from Littlefinger, and put the knowledge to use, most likely by figuring out what Liittlefinger is up to and thwarting him.  This will take some time, so I don't anticipate her leaving the Vale until at least the second half of TWOW, probably a bit later.

Tournament - The tournament is imminent.  Anyone currently known to be outside the Vale isn't going to make it there in time.  So no Brienne, Sir Hyle, Jaime, Podrick.  If I had to pick a potential mystery knight or unexpected attendee, I would choose Sandor Clegane, Brynden Tully, or Tyrek Lannister, in roughly that order.  Something major is likely to happen, but I'm not sure what that is.  I doubt it will be a kidnapping by Shadrick.  I think he is a red herring devised to distract us while more serious threats go unnoticed.

Ramsay/Arya - It would be logical for Myranda to tell Sansa about the marriage of Arya simply to gauge her reaction.  I'm unclear how Sansa would react.  If the news has been available for a while, she could be angry at Baelish for withholding it from her.  She could ask what he knows.  He might claim ignorance, or might say it is Jeyne.  At this point in the story, I don't think Sansa would be in any position to help her sister or friend, and would realize this.  Even if her identity is known by then, an iffy proposition, I doubt she has sufficient influence to induce the Vale knights to head to Winterfell in the dead of winter.

[Curled Finger]

Ah I like Uncle Blackfish showing up to throw a wrench into everything Little Finger may have planned or perhaps simply get up to his own undercover doings.  Fun fun fun.  

[LongRider]

37 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Jeyne Poole - I'm not sure why Baelish would put her in his brothel initially.  She is highborn, can read and write, and has experience as a lady's companion and maid.  I would have expected to be working as a companion, servant, child caretaker. something like that.  Any female the right age can do sex work...snip...  I think something went wrong somewhere along the line, and she wound up at the brothel by default. 

She is not highborn, her father is the Steward of WF, a position that is not a noble's position, but a servant.  LF took her off of Cersei's hands and sent her to one of his brothel's to be 'trained'.  On her wedding night, Ramsay has Theon strip her and he notices the scars on her back.  Later, Ramsay says to her, " I was told that you'd know how to please a man.  Was that a lie?' she answered "N-no, my lord. I was t-trained."  A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell   If any female can do sex work at the 'right' age, for LF the right age is whatever he thinks it is.  He sent her to his brothels.  She wasn't sent to a brothel by default, LF took advantage of sending a newly orphaned girl to his brothel.

I agree that Sansa most likely won't leave the Vale soon, but I am open for it to happen.  

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

I would choose Sandor Clegane, Brynden Tully, or Tyrek Lannister, in roughly that order.  Something major is likely to happen, but I'm not sure what that is.  I doubt it will be a kidnapping by Shadrick.  I think he is a red herring devised to distract us while more serious threats go unnoticed.

Maybe Brynden Tully, but I don't see Sandor riding to the rescue, alas.  Also agree Shadrick is a red herring.  

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Ramsay/Arya - It would be logical for Myranda to tell Sansa about the marriage of Arya simply to gauge her reaction.

Sure, that could happen.   

[Nevets]

7 minutes ago, LongRider said:

She is not highborn, her father is the Steward of WF, a position that is not a noble's position, but a servant.  LF took her off of Cersei's hands and sent her to one of his brothel's to be 'trained'.  On her wedding night, Ramsay has Theon strip her and he notices the scars on her back.  Later, Ramsay says to her, " I was told that you'd know how to please a man.  Was that a lie?' she answered "N-no, my lord. I was t-trained."  A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell   If any female can do sex work at the 'right' age, for LF the right age is whatever he thinks it is.  He sent her to his brothels.  She wasn't sent to a brothel by default, LF took advantage of sending a newly orphaned girl to his brothel.

I agree that Sansa most likely won't leave the Vale soon, but I am open for it to happen.  

Maybe Brynden Tully, but I don't see Sandor riding to the rescue, alas.  Also agree Shadrick is a red herring.  

Sure, that could happen.   

"The arms of House Poole were a blue plate on white, framed by a grey tressure".  Those are Theon's thoughts in ADWD - The Prince of Winterfell.  Jeyne has a House which has a sigil.  She is highborn.  Low-ranking nobility, but nobility nonetheless.

My comment about sex work was intended to mean that any girl off the street can do it.  It requires no education or experience.  Jeyne is educated with experience as a lady's companion.  He could find her a job with the proviso that she report on any valuable information, for example.  It seems wasteful to simply use her for sex work.  Though that is apparently what happened, at some point.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

"The arms of House Poole were a blue plate on white, framed by a grey tressure".  Those are Theon's thoughts in ADWD - The Prince of Winterfell.  Jeyne has a House which has a sigil.  She is highborn.  Low-ranking nobility, but nobility nonetheless.

My comment about sex work was intended to mean that any girl off the street can do it.  It requires no education or experience.  Jeyne is educated with experience as a lady's companion.  He could find her a job with the proviso that she report on any valuable information, for example.  It seems wasteful to simply use her for sex work.  Though that is apparently what happened, at some point.

Your original musings made sense, they didn't know what to do with her.  Jeyne's training was specific to a Northern lady's companion.  Though I am sure there are many mutable and interchangeable skills here I think there are differences in custom and traditions between the regions perhaps making Jeyne less desirable or valuable than we might think in Kings Landing.  She was also in the Stark company...taint perhaps?  I don't know, but I do see problems where placement is concerned.  Little Finger is Cersei's go to guy so he would want to just take care of the problem in the quickest and simplest way.  From another area I would think the Septas or Silent Sisters but even this won't fly given Jeyne's faith from the North.  

[Nevets]

20 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Your original musings made sense, they didn't know what to do with her.  Jeyne's training was specific to a Northern lady's companion.  Though I am sure there are many mutable and interchangeable skills here I think there are differences in custom and traditions between the regions perhaps making Jeyne less desirable or valuable than we might think in Kings Landing.  She was also in the Stark company...taint perhaps?  I don't know, but I do see problems where placement is concerned.  Little Finger is Cersei's go to guy so he would want to just take care of the problem in the quickest and simplest way.  From another area I would think the Septas or Silent Sisters but even this won't fly given Jeyne's faith from the North.  

It has occurred to me that Jeyne's activities during the time period of ACOK and ASOS are essentially a blank slate.  GRRM can do pretty much what he wants with it.  I wonder if he might use her as an infodump on some of Baelish's activities.  Inquiring minds want to know - what's this guy up to?

[Curled Finger]

22 minutes ago, Nevets said:

It has occurred to me that Jeyne's activities during the time period of ACOK and ASOS are essentially a blank slate.  GRRM can do pretty much what he wants with it.  I wonder if he might use her as an infodump on some of Baelish's activities.  Inquiring minds want to know - what's this guy up to?

Heck yah!  I would settle for some of that.  Plenty of "wolf packs in the background" she could give information to with  dramatic and varied results!

[LongRider]

@Curled Finger our intrepid reporter, what else is in the news?  Inquiring minds want to know!