Here comes a new challenger

[astarkchoice]

1 minute ago, Alester Florent said:

Brienne is good. I think, however (as does she) that at full capacity Jaime would beat her. I think the show did somewhat "amp up" her prowess (see also her other fight with a top tier Westerosi swordsman, which isn't in the books).

To be honest I am in the "Jaime at the peak of his powers is the best swordsman in Westeros" camp, though. I feel it adds to the pathos of his arc.

Yeah hes a freak ....killing 10 knights or so isnt normal even the mountain would be brought down by that many

The hand loss of course makes him use his brain for once and of course for him that starts looking at some ugly truths.

[GZ Bloodraven]

9 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Vic (the big dope)

Vic post-arm? Pre-arm, Jaime would totally beat Vic. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

9 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Bored so on re-reading jamies boast of only 3 men (the hound, mountain and ser barristan most likely) who could probably beat him thought wed get list of absolute units in the books that might( ie not def but stand a decebt chance )  to beat 2 handed jamie that hes never met in any tourney.

Smalljon + greatjon (i know jamie knows of these guys and wanted to test himself vs the greatjon but they dosnt seem to be tourney guys  and probably arent in his 3)

Vic (the big dope)  , harras harlaw 'the knight' and andrik the unsmiling.....maybe quarl 'the maid'?

Hotah and darkstar (i know  i know ...but grmm says this emo bitch is badass so hes badass )

Lyn corbray : steps up to the vale challenge with tyrion and considers himself their best sword ,carries a v. Steel blade and is too unlikeable to not have had his boasts checked by now if untrue

 

Bronn: the tv show nonsense about knights not knowing how to fight dirty/brawl is of course b.s BUT book  tyrion does say bronn is almost as good as his brother with a sword ......on the right day almost could be good enough !!!

Luthor brune: cut through many a fossway , so far LF trusts this dude as his main enforcer, seems like a more low key bronn 

Stong belwas: despite size seems fast and has fought vs armour before.

Daario: is it possible his b.s boasting  is semi true, seems another armoured sellsword would shut the mouth of this insanely decorated sellsword by now if hos boasts about his skill were all made up.

 

Any iv missed? Any shouldnt be on there?

 

Side note: seems odd the hound has not met and settled his issues with his brother pre books

 

Factor in Jaime’s arrogance and Tyrion’s bias while evaluating Stumpy. Jaime’s weapon is the sword but there are weapons with better reach.

In Wheel of Time, legend says a farmer with a wooden staff defeated the best swordsman. 
 

Hound, Gregor, and Barristan. Perhaps  Corbray and Belwas can also beat Jaime in combat. Great Jon, Daario,  Hotah, and Vic are not likely on his level. I don’t think it’s brute force. Skill is a better weapon against Jaime. 

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Factor in Jaime’s arrogance and Tyrion’s bias while evaluating Stumpy. Jaime’s weapon is the sword but there are weapons with better reach.

Jaime is also an expert with the lance.

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

In Wheel of Time, legend says a farmer with a wooden staff defeated the best swordsman.

That's nice.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

Vic post-arm? Pre-arm, Jaime would totally beat Vic. 

Hes a dangeous big sob even pre magic arm.

[astarkchoice]

7 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Jaime is also an expert with the lance.

That's nice.

As a knight hed be skilles in multiple weapons

Sword and lance at the bare min

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Factor in Jaime’s arrogance and Tyrion’s bias while evaluating Stumpy. Jaime’s weapon is the sword but there are weapons with better reach.

In Wheel of Time, legend says a farmer with a wooden staff defeated the best swordsman. 
 

Hound, Gregor, and Barristan. Perhaps  Corbray and Belwas can also beat Jaime in combat. Great Jon, Daario,  Hotah, and Vic are not likely on his level. I don’t think it’s brute force. Skill is a better weapon against Jaime. 

There are lo ger weapons yes but th longsword is a nice balamced weapon...and the mofo killed lile 10 knights with his last time someone stepped to him

 

Greatjon id say is just the northern version of ser gregor, hes ser gergor lite! Cant rule him out due to sheer size and he could be decentlt skilled too (dont forget his son is almost his size so unlike most semi giants in westeros he actualy has a sparring partner who he cant just outmuscle!!!)

Daario who knows..but anyman who can hamg out with mercs and a 3 pronged blue beard and still talk sass has gotta be able to back that up

Hotah (and any younger members of the warrior side of his small  sect) simply cannorlt be ruled out , the man has no other life but obedience and training!!! 

Vic was once the ironborns best (in fact could still be) 

[JonSnow4President]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You just rated this 20 year-old kid in the top 10% without actually being a tourney knight.  

Most of the top 10% of football players would get their butts kicked by college football players, let alone the pros.  The extreme ends of the bell curve are extremely rare.  

8 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

There are lo ger weapons yes but th longsword is a nice balamced weapon...and the mofo killed lile 10 knights with his last time someone stepped to him

Sword's are subpar for primary battlefield weapons.  They're kind of like pistols: good for everyday carry because they're so easy to carry around, and a serviceable backup on the battlefield for the same reason.  If you're going to battle, you really want a polearm or warhammer in the same way a modern soldier goes to battle with a rifle.  

[astarkchoice]

10 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

Most of the top 10% of football players would get their butts kicked by college football players, let alone the pros.  The extreme ends of the bell curve are extremely rare.  

Sword's are subpar for primary battlefield weapons.  They're kind of like pistols: good for everyday carry because they're so easy to carry around, and a serviceable backup on the battlefield for the same reason.  If you're going to battle, you really want a polearm or warhammer in the same way a modern soldier goes to battle with a rifle.  

Agreed 

 

Hmm sorta id def not call it a subpar knight weapon

In grmms world we see jamie used one to kill 10 knights , armour is more penetratable in planetos  than in real life (that said many debate if old drawings  depicting sword cutting through arms and leg and head's of armoured men are romanticised  or real depictions of what artists saw on battlefields, swords dont seem to be able to cut through plate BUT we know even the finest late medieval armour  the metal was riddled with imperfections vs modern made suits where we understand the science of making metal better!!!!!!! )

As for real life yes heavier weapons suited horseback or mass melee where movement is constricted and  simple armour penetration/whallop  is key , but on foot esp one on one  the sword is still an amzingly well balanced weapon. Modern knight fighting has shown that a sword doesnt need to penetrate armour to knock an opp senseless (esp a heavy pommel.strike which is usualy  a one hit ko) and thats before we talk half swodring and using it as a pole for leverage to grapple with!!! Generaly speaking for a duel on foot sword would still be king......we can assume for robert vs rhaegar at the trident young prime bobby was too strong for its weight to be a big hinderance one on one.

[Bowen 747]

We know little about Gerold Dayne to estimate his lethality.  We know Strong Belwas is lethal with his arakh. 

Strong Belwas with his arakh vs Jaime Lannister with his sword.  No armor.  I would bet on Belwas to win this fight.

[Alester Florent]

Swords are great all-round weapons, but compared to some others they do suffer from a lack of reach and a lack of armour penetration. Mail armour will generally render the wearer impervious to cuts (but not thrusts); when combined with plate harness (or brigandine, coat of plates etc.) the sword-user is generally reduced to seeking gaps in the armour to strike through, or turning it round to use it like an ersatz warhammer (in which case, why not just use a warhammer/mace/etc. from the outset). In one-on-one combat someone with a weapon like a partisan or bill will probably overmatch a swordsman, all other things being equal, because their greater reach allows them to keep the swordsman at a distance. And of course we see this in the story when Oberyn absolutely beasts Gregor Clegane.

The swordsman can use a shield, of course, but given that Jaime wears full plate harness to battle, he probably doesn't need a shield. The fully-armoured knights of Westeros most likely don't need shields. As a result that frees up their second hand to use a two-handed weapon and one might expect to see them wielding something like a poleaxe as their primary weapon with the sword as a backup. Against other knights (rather than less well-armoured opponents) then you ideally want something that packs more of a punch than a sword: a mace or hammer may be less nimble than a sword, but precision is also less important because they can do damage through plate armour where a sword will just glance off.

If fighting two-handed, though, you can use a longsword and that will overcome some of the reach disadvantages of a one-handed sword, as well as opening up options for half-swording and grappling, making it a more viable weapon in that context. Oathkeeper, made for Jaime, is described as a longsword.

 

However... I have a nasty feeling that at least early on in the series GRRM was taking a more "fantasy" (i.e. D&D-inspired) approach to arms and armour than a realistic one. In D&D, longswords are one-handed weapons, bastard swords are one-or-two-handed weapons, greatswords are two-handed weapons, and armour makes you slow and cumbersome to the point where you have to decide whether to trade off speed for protection or not. In real life, longswords were hand-and-a-half weapons and often synonymous with "bastard sword" or "greatsword". And the tradeoff between well-made armour and freedom of movement is so one-sided that nobody who could afford decent armour went without it*.

In that same fantasy vein, swords are often overrepresented in fantasy media as primary weapons, partly because they're "cool" but also because of the way gaming system combat works, the primary/secondary weapon distinction is eroded, and the reach advantage of a polearm is often minimal relative to its damage output. Plus to an extent in an "adventuring" context which most RPGs and many fantasy novels (including of course The Lord of the Rings) depict, an all-purpose weapon like a sword is more useful and easier to travel with than a large polearm (especially if visiting cities and the like where walking around with a weapon of war is often illegal: swords are acceptable "civilian" weapons).

I guess there's also the Valyrian steel factor: we don't really know all its properties but if it's capable of actually penetrating plate armour that's a game-changer. From what I've seen so far I suspect its properties are more along the lines of getting a sharper edge and holding it better, and being lighter (but being lighter is not necessarily an advantage against plate, because you lose the percussive effect), rather than being a lightsaber that will cut through anything. In any case, Jaime doesn't use a Valyrian blade and nor do the Hound, Gregor, Barristan, Bronn, Jon Umber, Strong Belwas etc. (Lyn Corbray does, though, as does (latterly) Brienne).

 

*OK, two exceptions. The Earl of Shrewsbury didn't wear armour, because he'd sworn an oath to the King of France never to wear armour against him again. And Gustavus Adolphus went without armour because an old wound made it hopelessly uncomfortable. Both of them died on the battlefield, which goes to show how well that went for them.

[astarkchoice]

45 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

We know little about Gerold Dayne to estimate his lethality.  We know Strong Belwas is lethal with his arakh. 

Strong Belwas with his arakh vs Jaime Lannister with his sword.  No armor.  I would bet on Belwas to win this fight.

Yeah but id doubt jamie would fight armourless

A huge issue is belwas arrogance in letting opp get 1st cut....vs someone like jamie with his speed and strength (and apparent ability to stab through plate ) it could be the 1st cut is the deepest for belwas..and the last

[astarkchoice]

14 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Swords are great all-round weapons, but compared to some others they do suffer from a lack of reach and a lack of armour penetration. Mail armour will generally render the wearer impervious to cuts (but not thrusts); when combined with plate harness (or brigandine, coat of plates etc.) the sword-user is generally reduced to seeking gaps in the armour to strike through. In one-on-one combat someone with a weapon like a partisan or bill will probably overmatch a swordsman, all other things being equal, because their greater reach allows them to keep the swordsman at a distance. And of course we see this in the story when Oberyn absolutely beasts Gregor Clegane.

The swordsman can use a shield, of course, but given that Jaime wears full plate harness to battle, he probably doesn't need a shield. The fully-armoured knights of Westeros most likely don't need shields. As a result that frees up their second hand to use a two-handed weapon and one might expect to see them wielding something like a poleaxe as their primary weapon with the sword as a backup.

If fighting two-handed, though, you can use a longsword and that will overcome some of the reach disadvantages of a one-handed sword, as well as opening up options for half-swording and grappling, making it a more viable weapon in that context. Oathkeeper, made for Jaime, is described as a longsword.

 

However... I have a nasty feeling that at least early on in the series GRRM was taking a more "fantasy" (i.e. D&D-inspired) approach to arms and armour than a realistic one. In D&D, longswords are one-handed weapons, bastard swords are one-or-two-handed weapons, greatswords are two-handed weapons, and armour makes you slow and cumbersome to the point where you have to decide whether to trade off speed for protection or not. In real life, longswords were hand-and-a-half weapons and often synonymous with "bastard sword" or "greatsword". And the tradeoff between well-made armour and freedom of movement is so one-sided that nobody who could afford decent armour went without it*.

In that same fantasy vein, swords are often overrepresented in fantasy media as primary weapons, partly because they're "cool" but also because of the way gaming system combat works, the primary/secondary weapon distinction is eroded, and the reach advantage of a polearm is often minimal relative to its damage output. Plus to an extent in an "adventuring" context which most RPGs and many fantasy novels (including of course The Lord of the Rings) depict, an all-purpose weapon like a sword is more useful and easier to travel with than a large polearm (especially if visiting cities and the like where walking around with a weapon of war is often illegal: swords are acceptable "civilian" weapons).

 

*OK, two exceptions. The Earl of Shrewsbury didn't wear armour, because he'd sworn an oath to the King of France never to wear armour against him again. And Gustavus Adolphus went without armour because an old wound made it hopelessly uncomfortable. Both of them died on the battlefield, which goes to show how well that went for them.

Agree on the fantasy stuff but as we learn more on authentic swordfighting we see they arent bad weapons at all vs armour.

For one on one combat they are hard to match ( although short mace/spiked hammer probably as good)

Modern knight combat shows the speed and ease of handling means vs longer weapons you can get in close,parry  and hammer someone senseless!  You generaly  cant cut modern armour  no ( the medieval drawings  and possibly quality issues mentioned earlier aside)  but solid  whallops to the head and it doesnt matter as  the other guy is ready to be finished (id say in old times  the stunned/staggering  opp would  followed up with a dirk etc ) 

 Theres a great youtube video showing what a pommel strike does to a fully helmeted man....its a tko move!! the pommel can be used as a short range mace/hammer to drop someone, people underestimate how heavy even a longsword pommel is forgetting its essentialy a counterweight!!

Finaly for penetration we know swords would usualy be sharp on one side with the other blunt to allow halfswording (ramming the blade into joints gripping sword with both hands) and when wielded can be used as a small

And of cpurse a side note is how prominant wrestling would be for real combat between knights, the sword is much more weidly to be combined with that than longer weapons esp as it can be used like a small pole to grapple or even trip!!!

Overall its a real swiss army weapon ,would (presobal prefference) be probably the best overall pick for non mounted one on one battles!

[Loose Bolt]

16 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

In Wheel of Time, legend says a farmer with a wooden staff defeated the best swordsman. 

In his duel with Sasaki Kojiro Miyamoto Musashi killed his opponent with improvised wooden sword that he carved from an oar when he was travelling to that duel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

In his duel with Sasaki Kojiro Miyamoto Musashi killed his opponent with improvised wooden sword that he carved from an oar when he was travelling to that duel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

True but thats a duel with 0 armour or helmets

 

Mushashi being mushashi had noted his future opponents style  relied a lot on superior reach thus carved the slightly longer than normal wooden katana...his opp was taken out in the opening exchange having misjudged the safe range 

[Moiraine Sedai]

3 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

In his duel with Sasaki Kojiro Miyamoto Musashi killed his opponent with improvised wooden sword that he carved from an oar when he was travelling to that duel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

Commentaries from medieval historians have said the handle is a weak, vulnerable part of the swords. An oak bokken is solid and doesn’t have the same weakness.  

[Alester Florent]

8 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Commentaries from medieval historians have said the handle is a weak, vulnerable part of the swords. An oak bokken is solid and doesn’t have the same weakness.  

I don't know much about Japanese swords, but in a western sword, there is no reason for the hilt to be weak and, given that pretty much any sword since the seax has had a guard, is certainly not vulnerable.

[JonSnow4President]

On 4/4/2023 at 4:03 AM, astarkchoice said:

Agreed 

 

Hmm sorta id def not call it a subpar knight weapon

In grmms world we see jamie used one to kill 10 knights , armour is more penetratable in planetos  than in real life (that said many debate if old drawings  depicting sword cutting through arms and leg and head's of armoured men are romanticised  or real depictions of what artists saw on battlefields, swords dont seem to be able to cut through plate BUT we know even the finest late medieval armour  the metal was riddled with imperfections vs modern made suits where we understand the science of making metal better!!!!!!! )

As for real life yes heavier weapons suited horseback or mass melee where movement is constricted and  simple armour penetration/whallop  is key , but on foot esp one on one  the sword is still an amzingly well balanced weapon. Modern knight fighting has shown that a sword doesnt need to penetrate armour to knock an opp senseless (esp a heavy pommel.strike which is usualy  a one hit ko) and thats before we talk half swodring and using it as a pole for leverage to grapple with!!! Generaly speaking for a duel on foot sword would still be king......we can assume for robert vs rhaegar at the trident young prime bobby was too strong for its weight to be a big hinderance one on one.

Sorry for the delay.  I think they're fantastic backup battlefield weapons for all the reason's you've said, and fantastic primary EDC weapons because of that capability paired with ease of carry. But if you know you're going, you want something more purpose built like the warhammer, or a lance if mounted or polearm if on foot. The sword certainly isn't useless, but it's disadvantageous against someone equipped more appropriately. 

GRRM's realism is of course another matter.  Leather armor at all is extremely dubious.  Studded leather is just a misnomer for brigandine, where the leather isn't serving significant protection purposes. Robert's strength wouldn't matter for his massive hammer, as nothing keeps him rooted to the ground well enough to swing something so heavy on balance, even if he can generate the force to move it. At the end of the day it's just style and doesn't bother me.

 

[James Arryn]

If it’s the quote I’m thinking about, it was specific to strength, not skill. He was mentioning people he thought were stronger than him, not could beat him. And I think it was the Cleganes and Strongboar, with a mention of Robert when he was younger. 
 

Also, with regards to Brienne and Jaimie, yes he is totally out of shape, being kept imprisoned for months on end. But an even bigger deal is having his hands chained. That’s not just a factor, that ought to be decisive against anyone who knows what they are doing. It gets in the way of almost every element of sword fighting AND makes your options very limited, awkward and easy to predict. It’s like comparing drivers when one of them is driving with flat tires. 

[Hugorfonics]

19 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Also, with regards to Brienne and Jaimie, yes he is totally out of shape, being kept imprisoned for months on end. But an even bigger deal is having his hands chained. That’s not just a factor, that ought to be decisive against anyone who knows what they are doing. It gets in the way of almost every element of sword fighting AND makes your options very limited, awkward and easy to predict. It’s like comparing drivers when one of them is driving with flat tires. 

Two clear points in favoring Jaime, however he was also fighting to kill, or to win by any means necessary. Brienne however would fail if she killed Jaime, so while I enjoy your metaphor of Jaime riding with flat tires, he's at least trying to finish the race. Brienne though is like riding one of those motorcycles in a cage. 

It may not look that difficult, but it's reckless, dangerous and stupid, and no matter what cool tricks she pulls off, she's not making any forward progress.