What if Jon Snow have streaks of Silver/white hair when Growing up

[Craving Peaches]

19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

How do you know anyone was born at the tower of joy?

I assume someone was because how else did Lyanna die? It was not likely to be disease, since she was young, presumably healthy, and not near an epicenter. I doubt anyone killed her.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

There are only 4 possibilities when it comes to Jon’s parentage

1. Rhaegar and Lyanna

2. Ned and Wylla

3. Ned and Ashara

4. Brandon and Ashara

Any other theory is just plainly wrong. Unworthy of discussion.

The only alternative I've been able to come up with that works is Lyanna and Arthur Dayne, and that's mainly because he had ready access to her.  If this were real life, I would consider it.  It's not, so I don't.  Besides, we would probably have no way to find out.

[Frey family reunion]

24 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I assume someone was because how else did Lyanna die? It was not likely to be disease, since she was young, presumably healthy, and not near an epicenter. I doubt anyone killed her.

You're making assumptions based on assumptions.

You're first assumption is that Lyanna died at the tower of joy.  But we don't know that.  All we know is that Ned had a fever dream that had two distinct scenes.  The first was his battle with the Kingsguard at the tower of joy, and the second scene was Lyanna's death bed.  Cojoined events in a dream does not necessarily indicate that the two events occurred at the same time or location.  We have to acknowledge that George specifically warned us not to take fever dreams too literally in this very context.

The second assumption is that Lyanna had to have died giving birth.  Dany at some point was young and healthy as well, but when we find her at the end of Dance she's in a bloody bed of grass.  Dany wasn't giving birth at the time.

What we know is that GRRM has indicated that Jon was born 8 to 9 months before Dany.  So if Dany is the child of Aerys and Rhaella then we know (based on Jaime's recollection) that she had to have been conceived when Jaime and Jon Darry were standing guard.  We know this is the last time she could have been conceived because Jaime was at Aerys' side at all times and he only saw Rhaella one time after that night, which was the day she left for Dragonstone.

And then at the very minimum, four weeks had to have elapsed before Ned arrived at King's Landing.  Two weeks for Rhaegar and Jon Darry to travel to the Trident, and two weeks after that for Eddard to arrive at King's Landing.  

And we also know that the time between the start of the war (presumably when Arryn called his banners) and the time that Eddard arrived at King's Landing was close to but less than a year.  We also know that the siege of Storm's End also lasted close to but less than a year.  And since it was Ned who lifted the siege, at least that much additional time had to have elapsed.  And finally the length of time it would have taken for Ned and company to learn of and then travel to the Prince's Pass.  Which is a considerable distance from Storm's End.

So based on what George said, it is pretty much impossible that Jon was born at the tower of joy.  Unless of course you want to concede that Dany might not be the child of Aerys and Rhaella.

ETA: the other issue is how exactly we get the idea that two years elapsed between Lyanna's disappearance and Jon's birth, even if you assume that Jon was born at the tower of joy.  I'm not saying that time period is impossible, but no one is giving any particular reasons for that length of time.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Craving Peaches]

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You're making assumptions based on assumptions.

Of course I am, because there is no backstory other than Ned's dreams. So is everyone else.

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You're first assumption is that Lyanna died at the tower of joy.  But we don't know that.  All we know is that Ned had a fever dream that had two distinct scenes.  The first was his battle with the Kingsguard at the tower of joy, and the second scene was Lyanna's death bed.  Cojoined events in a dream does not necessarily indicate that the two events occurred at the same time or location.  We have to acknowledge that George specifically warned us not to take fever dreams too literally in this very context.

I think it is more of a jump to assume the parts of the dream occur at different locations than it is to think they occurred at the same location.

If Lyanna was not at the tower, what was Ned doing there? And where was she?

17 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The second assumption is that Lyanna had to have died giving birth.  Dany at some point was young and healthy as well, but when we find her at the end of Dance she's in a bloody bed of grass.  Dany wasn't giving birth at the time.

How did Lyanna get dysentery then? The only time there is a 'bloody bed' is childbirth or dysentery.

18 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

What we know is that GRRM has indicated that Jon was born 8 to 9 months before Dany.

Where did he say this?

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Where did he say this?

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/1999/07

Quote

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/1999/07

The issue with using this as evidence is that in the same part GRRM says 'I will confess, the chronology of these books sometimes gives me fits.'  

And also  "With such a huge cast of characters, just keeping track of the =years= drives me half mad sometimes." 

So how can I be sure that was an accurate statement that has not been subject to any change, especially since that was in 1999?

Edited May 4, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

An average human gestation lasts for almost 40 weeks not 104 weeks.

To be honest, I would love nothing more than for Jon’s parents to be Lyanna and Mance… I love Mance. But we know there’s zero clues or hints to this, it’s just a fantasy the haters like b/c it makes Jon a non-Targ. I have no idea how this lot is going to resolve this issue they have once we get confirmation that Rhaegar, a precious superior being, is the father of a savage northerner and a Stark to boot.  
 

Their Brandon + Lyanna, Ned + Lyanna and yes, even Benjen + Lyanna is even funnier and more pathetic. First, again, there’s zero textual support or clues for it. Second is the kicker… they looooooooooooove Dany the precious superior being (even though they don’t get the character at all b/c they think she’d applaud Freys, Boltons etc) BUT they know the sibling on sibling incest is gross and wrong and vile. So pairing Lyanna w/ one of her siblings works two ways: it makes Jon a non-Targ, and inserts the disgusting sibling fucking into the Stark family. It’s a genius idea, but sadly for them it’s pure delusional fanfic w/ less than zero chances of happening.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think it is more of a jump to assume the parts of the dream occur at different locations than it is to think they occurred at the same location.

It's not really a jump to point out that the only evidence that Lyanna was in the tower of joy was Ned's fever dream.  It becomes especially problematic when GRRM himself, points out that fever dreams shouldn't be taken literally.

The issue, is that posters are making claims that certain parentages are "impossible".  But they are basing the impossibility of these parentage on certain shaky assumptions.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

If Lyanna was not at the tower, what was Ned doing there? And where was she?

There is a strong indication that Ned and company wasn't at the tower of joy to rescue Lyanna.  If this was a simple rescue mission of his sister, there is no particular reason to proceed with such a small group of people, made up only of northern friends that had strong associations with either Lyanna, Brandon or Eddard.  The reason that Eddard would have travelled with such a small group of trusted people is that he knew that what awaited in the tower was something that he wanted to keep secret.

So the possibility is either that he already knew that Lyanna was pregnant, or that he wasn't at the tower for Lyanna at all, but instead he was there to retrieve her child, who had already been born.

As for where Lyanna could have been, I think that should be obvious.  She could have been at Starfall.  Which would explain the true reason that Eddard and Howland travelled there, through enemy territory, after the battle at the tower of joy.  It wasn't to bring Dawn back to Ashara, it was to bring Lyanna's son back to her.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

How did Lyanna get dysentery then? The only time there is a 'bloody bed' is childbirth or dysentery.

So you are assuming that Dany had dysentery?  I'm not so sure that's the case.  Remember she first believes that it's her moon blood.  It's the amount of it that starts to disturb her.  It doesn't seem like she would confuse the two.  I've heard a pretty compelling argument that some of the berries Dany ate, may have induced a miscarriage.  

 

[Craving Peaches]

18 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's not really a jump to point out that the only evidence that Lyanna was in the tower of joy was Ned's fever dream.

That's not the same as claiming both parts of the dream were in different locations, which has nothing to back it up. The World of Ice and Fire also says Lyanna was in that tower.

19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So you are assuming that Dany had dysentery?

It was a joke. But the point still stands: Lyanna has access to nothing Daenerys has (either dysentery or the berries she ate) to cause a 'bed of blood'. The only logical options for what caused that with Lyanna would be childbirth related. Unless Moontea was supplied and somehow caused a similar effect as the berries, but there's no evidence for that. Lyanna is associated with blue roses, and Daenerys sees a blue rose growing from the Wall in a vision. So someone connected with Lyanna is there. Probably Jon.

[Frey family reunion]

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's not the same as claiming both parts of the dream were in different locations, which has nothing to back it up. The World of Ice and Fire also says Lyanna was in that tower.

The closest thing that I’ve found to GRRM directly commenting on this is from this exchange from 2002:

Quote

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?

Certainly.

It’s an interesting addendum, about dreams not always being literal.  In the context of her question, she mentions that the three kingsguards are present at the tower of joy.  Ned specifically confirms this part of the dream as being the same as it was in real life.

She discusses Lyanna making Ned promise her something.  Which is likewise confirmed in Ned’s memory.

But she also includes Lyanna being at the tower.  So perhaps, GRRM’s caution about taking dreams too literally is in reference to this aspect of the question, because everything else in the dream was confirmed through Ned’s memory.

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It was a joke. But the point still stands: Lyanna has access to nothing Daenerys has (either dysentery or the berries she ate) to cause a 'bed of blood'. The only logical options for what caused that with Lyanna would be childbirth related. Unless Moontea was supplied and somehow caused a similar effect as the berries, but there's no evidence for that. Lyanna is associated with blue roses, and Daenerys sees a blue rose growing from the Wall in a vision. So someone connected with Lyanna is there. Probably Jon.

That’s why I brought up the possibility of a miscarriage.  In some ways, there are parallels between Dany’s adventures in ADWD and Lyanna’s apparent story.  Dany is forced via circumstance into a marriage she’s not happy with, Lyanna is forced into a betrothal that she’s not happy with.  Lyanna escapes it by being kidnapped/running away with a “dragon”, Rhaegar.  Dany escapes it by being kidnapped/running away with a dragon, Drogon.  

Both are carried off to a hidden location.  Drogon carries Dany off to the “Dragonstone” in the middle of the Dothraki sea, while Lyanna is carried off to ?  Perhaps, either the tower of joy in the prince’s Pass, or to Starfall.

Both find themselves in a bloody bed.  Dany in a bloody bed of grass, and then Lyanna’s bloody bed.  So if Dany’s was because of a miscarriage, then I suppose it’s possible that Lyanna’s death was likewise caused by a early miscarriage of her second child.

[Jon Fossoway]

Well, would have been incresingly difficult for George to keep it a puzzle for readers to figure out.

[GZ Bloodraven]

On 5/2/2023 at 8:10 PM, Mrstrategy said:

What if Jon Snow had streaks of White hair when Growing up how would it had affected Ned Stark's plans to hide him from Robert?

He has that Bride of Frankenstein condition, nothing more or less. Ned would probably have him dye the hair. 

If Robert figured it out, though, Ned would have to send Jon into hiding. 

[Buried Treasure]

18 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

He has that Bride of Frankenstein condition, nothing more or less. Ned would probably have him dye the hair. 

If Robert figured it out, though, Ned would have to send Jon into hiding. 

I don't agree that Ned would have had Jon dye his hair - because that act in itself is telling people that there is something to hide. Ned was keeping Jon's identity secret even from Jon himself, and the servants of Winterfell would have noticed a child changing hair colour overnight.

Hiding? - yes, because it wouldn't be presented as hiding. Send Jon away before anybody notices who he resembles and it can be called fostering, and it is not considered unusual to send a bastard child somewhere out of sight.

[Foreknown]

Eddard could just claim that Jon’s mom was of Valyrian descent. And in fact this probably strengthen the belief of his connection to ashara and house dayne.