A Theory "Jorah Mormont's Betrayal"

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

Hello, Selam!

I realized something when I was thinking about the Dance of Dragons 2. It is not wrong to expect some similarities between the first war and the second war. So we can expect some characters to resemble the roles of other characters.

In this topic, I will tell you which (in the first Dance) character will coincide with Jorah in the second Dance. Of course I can't claim that it is 100%.

Let's start.

Introduction

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Dany found herself looking at the knight curiously. He was an older man, past forty and balding, but still strong and fit. Instead of silks and cottons, he wore wool and leather. His tunic was a dark green, embroidered with the likeness of a black bear standing on two legs.

That was Dany's first encounter with Jorah. He then stood close to the girl and sent everything that had happened to Varys in exchange for a pardon. Over time, Jorah continued to report to Varys, even in the city of Qarth, although he tried to protect her because he loved her. He had stopped after that, but it was a painful betrayal for Dany. She banished Jorah and decided that he was one of the three betrayals (love) she was supposed to see at the house of the Undying.

You decide if Jorah's betrayal is one of love, gold, or blood betrayal, but I will approach it in a different way.

The prophecy foretells the future, does not tell the past. It is important that this action began to take place before the warnings, even though Dany had heard after about the spying activities of Jorah. So, just as we cannot accept Mirri's action as being carried out in three betrayals, we cannot accept Jorah's betrayal either. Mirri's and Jorah's actions took place in parallel with each other, and Dany became aware of one's action long after the other's action, that's all. We cannot see it as a betrayal of love. Do not forget that the Immortals said what will happens, not the ones that what happened. So it is necessary to look at what is in the future, not the past.

Jorah being a spy is not one of those betrayals, but Jorah will still commit a betrayal. A betrayal from him may indeed be a betrayal of “love.. We usually expected to see a betrayal from the person Dany would fall in love with, or that is still could be true; This betrayal may come from someone she is in love with (Daario) or someone who loves her. When Jorah said, "I love you," Dany thought it was "love betrayal." As a matter of fact, the possibility of betrayal not only that Dany is in love with someone, also someone who is in love with her should be taken into consideration. Let's leave this part for now and step by step.

• Jorah, is he capable of betraying Dany?

After reading Jorah's hopes of returning to Dany after falling in love and after exile, we assumed that this man would stay with her until the end. Because it displayed an image of unshakable loyalty. Of course I still think so, but when I read the book Fire and Blood, I noticed a serious threat along with what I noticed. Well, I questioned him. Therefore, I think that the probability of betrayal is almost close to each other if it remains true to the end. At least for me - for now - 50% / 50% A move from the most unexpected person already matches the GRRM's style of writing. Remember that Jorah kept spying on her when she was in love. Knowing this is a betrayal. Why? For home. Jorah is someone who can betray Dany for "home". We saw this. He already did that. In the future, Jorah's heart can be split into two for both home and Dany.

Why do I think Jorah can betray?

1. Green Jinx

We know green color is a sign of bad luck(and enemy or something like that) for Dany. In the first dance, the two sides were divided as black and greens. The second dance could be the same. (Black Drogon and Green Rhaegal)

The floor of Xaro's private apartment was made of green marble, which wanted one of Dany's dragons, and moreover, he clearly showed hostility. Kraznys's dress was green. Cleon send her green slipper. After what happened in Qarth, they sent an insect to assassinate Dany; There was a green stone in the box and the insect was green. They wanted to poison her with locus in Meereen. (Locus are usually green.) Galazza Galare , Green Grace(I believe she is Hyperia, also she has green eyes and wears green dress). Rhaegal dragon in green color. He killed Quentyn and possibly brought the end of the Dorne alliance (Quhuru Mo seem to have no a bad influence for now despite wearing a green cloak, but looking at the last two books we should comment. He appeared twice; I say we will see more).

Now let's come to another character that is described with green color; Jorah Mormont.

His family sigil is a black bear on top of green background. He walks around in a green cloak or clothes that has family colors. That's why it's quite possible for him to bring a jinx to Dany (Of course he did something bad to Dany in the first place. But we expect much greater betrayal. Something so important that Undying have to warn Dany).

2. Warning of the Undying

The Undying Ones said Dany would see betrayals . They warned her because these betrayals will be as have been too heavy, too jarring, touchstone in the future. Otherwise, minor betrayals will only annoy you. but great betrays means great losses. The betrayals of highly trusted people will undoubtedly be overwhelming.

When she found out that Jorah was a spy, Dany was hurt and of course left a mark on her. However, his appearance as a spy was not a devastating betrayal of Dany's life.

Otherwise, Dany wouldn't be willing to forgive him. If Jorah had spoken more humbly, Dany would have wanted to forgive him, but he didn't do it, and only made her more angry.

"No . . . no." He shook his head. "I never meant . . . forgive me. You have to forgive me."
"Have to?" It was too late. He should have begun by begging forgiveness. She could not pardon him as she'd intended.

If Jorah makes a betrayal in the future. More than a simple spyin thing betrayal ... This is something that Dany will never forgive, and moreover, that brings great destruction to her. Because the most destructive betrayal, the most unexpected; is the closest one. Jorah suits such betrayal.

3. Dance Of Dragons 1th. - Criston Cole

Here's the real reason for me to believe that Jorah will change his sides... Criston Cole.

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Ser Criston Cole was a knight from House Cole. Made a member of King Viserys I Targaryen's Kingsguard, eventually rising to Lord Commander. Criston convinced Viserys's son, Aegon, to claim the rule of the Seven Kingdoms as his father lay dead. This led to the Dance of the Dragons, a civil war between Aegon II and his elder sister, Rhaenyra, whom Viserys had long groomed as his successor. For this he became known as Criston the Kingmaker.

In 112 AC Ser Criston was still Rhaenyra's champion and constant companion. Lord Commander Ser Harrold Westerling died in that year, and Criston was named his successor to lead the White Cloaks. It was rumored that Cole had an affair with Rhaenyra in 113 AC. - ASOIAF WİKİ

 

In the first place Cole was on the side of the blacks party. I believe the rumor that he is in love with the princess is true. Nobody has any doubts about that, I guess? Whatever happened between them, Cole became hostile to the princess. Cole switched his sides and passed to the greens party.

In fact, there were signs. Let's look his physical appearance.

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Criston had coal black hair and pale green eyes.

I think his black hair is some sort of FS that would be on his first Rae(blacks) side and his green eyes on his greens. Colors are important in Dance.

• So, What about Jorah Mormont?

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Jorah was lord of Bear Island. Jorah showed courage during Greyjoy's Rebellion, being one of the first men through the breach during the siege of Pyke. He received knighthood from King Robert I Baratheon in recognition of his bravery. During a tourney at Lannisport to celebrate the victory over the Greyjoy rebels, Jorah met Lynesse Hightower and fell in love. He asked for her favor to wear during the tournament, for which she gave her permission and became champion. Jorah and Lynesse were married at Lannisport. -ASOIAF Wiki

We know Lynesse look like Dany. Jorah and his wife did not have a happy marriage, and she betrayed him. Since then, Jorah hates as much as he loves his wife. Like Cole.

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She gave him leave to go, but as he was lifting the flap of her tent, she could not stop herself calling after him with one last question. "What did she look like, your Lady Lynesse?"

Ser Jorah smiled sadly. "Why, she looked a bit like you, Daenerys." He bowed low. "Sleep well, my queen."
Dany shivered, and pulled the lionskin tight about her. She looked like me. It explained much that she had not truly understood. He wants me, she realized. He loves me as he loved her, not as a knight loves his queen but as a man loves a woman.

Guess it looks like Jorah's love for Dany comes from his love to his own wife.

Things like Jorah and Cole falling in love with the Targaryen girls and being rejected, both being champions in a tournament, have been similar to now. In addition, Jorah was Dany's sworn shield at first, and then the first of the queen guards, even the Lord Commander(when he was first-and only- queensguard, it made him also lord commander, i guess), like Cole.

Dany had named him the first of her Queensguard . . . and when Mormont's gruff counsel and the omens agreed, her course was clear.

Cole's eye and hair color was a sign that he would be on both sides. Remember, Jorah's family sigil is a black bear on top of green background and he wears green clothes. (The Asoiaf wiki says he has a black beard, but I've never seen it write in books.)

So, Jorah will be side the first blacks in this battle. He's in love with Dany and wants to stand by her. But then something will happen, and Jorah will be hostile to Dany and will be side the greens.

• Causes of Betrayal

Many scenarios can be produced for this. Like Cole, Dany didn't answer Jorah's love, but I don't give that much chance because I think he already knows Dany never lover him like that, he is not stupid. Even though he was exiled, he still strives to be with her.

The possibility in my mind is "home" and "family".

Jorah has a home wound as much as a love wound. He told her this much. Even Dany wondered.

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"I am going to take you home one day, Missandei," Dany promised. If I had made the same promise to Jorah, would he still have sold me? "I swear it."

We know Dany will be corrupt by power. We also know that her actions will be a bit extreme (at least there are many readers waiting for this). Dany's revenge list also includes the north. I believe she could turn into a Maegor-Viserys mix.

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She lifted her head. "And I am Daenerys Stormborn, Daenerys of House Targaryen, of the blood of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and old Valyria before them. I am the dragon's daughter, and I swear to you, these men will die screaming. Now bring me to Khal Drogo."

I believe it is a FS. Dany became Aegon the Conqueror, she was Aegon the Conqueror with teats. Later she will became Maegor the Cruel with teats. Rae was even called by that name when she took KL.

So, her actions may become unacceptable to Jorah after some point. Especially if Dany starts posing a threat to his family ...his home... Jorah can change sides for this reason. After all, everyone has a limit. Even if Jorah is in love with her, he's not going to trade his family's life and home for her.

I hate to refer to the show as a reference, but for example ... Jon was in love with her but he killed her anyway because to save his family and home. Why shouldn't Jorah change sides?

In short, the “love” of the three betrayals seems to be very suitable for Jorah. What do you say?

Thank you for read and sorry my bad English.

 

[Damsel in Distress]

All those who betray Daenerys gets burned.  The prophecies even confirmed.  Jorah will be executed by fire if he should betray her.  I don't believe Jprah will betray Daenerys.  Jorah was not included in her prophecies.  The three men who will get roasted for treason are Stannis, Aegon, and Jon. 

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

1 hour ago, Damsel in Distress said:

All those who betray Daenerys gets burned.  The prophecies even confirmed.  Jorah will be executed by fire if he should betray her.  I don't believe Jprah will betray Daenerys.  Jorah was not included in her prophecies.  The three men who will get roasted for treason are Stannis, Aegon, and Jon. 

?????????????????

[csuszka1948]

I think Dany betrayed and killed by Jorah could make a lot of sense. Jorah is with Dany from the very beginning of her story and Daario warned her that showing him mercy was a huge mistake:

She looked away until she heard the doors open and close. Then she sank back onto the ebony bench. He's gone, then. My father and my mother, my brothers, Ser Willem Darry, Drogo who was my sun-and-stars, his son who died inside me, and now Ser Jorah . . .

"The queen has a good heart," Daario purred through his deep purple whiskers, "but that one is more dangerous than all the Oznaks and Meros rolled up in one."

 

I don't think that Dany will be betrayed by Jorah because her actions are 'unacceptable' for him. We are talking about the men who was no moral qualms selling men to slavery despite he was raised in Westeros where slavery is despised and hated and he was outraged that Ned Stark dares to punish him.

If Jorah betrays Dany, it will be done out of jealousy... just like Gollum, Dany is his Precious. Seeing that she gets into a romance with the hated Ned Stark's son will outrage him. Dany won't be brought down by potentially tyrannical acts, but her mercy.

Obviously, he might try to justify it to him by thinking of Dany as a tyrant needing to put down, but that's not the real reason he will commit the act, the 'treason to love'. At the end, his actions will be debated... with some calling him a hero for putting down a tyrant and others despising him, and King Bran's justice will send him to the Wall.

Edited May 22, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Castellan]

I am being lazy and not going back to reread right now, but is it true that the betrayals must happen in the future? My impression is that the things Dany sees and hears in the House of the Undying are coming somewhat haphazardly, with a mixture of malice and commitment to genuine advice, and events from her past, the past in general, and the future. For example, she has been told not to go into any room except the last, so the image of William Darry in one room seems designed to tempt her in. I realise the 'three' prophecies come together and seem like genuine information, but when they say 'three betrayals you will know" does 'will' have to mean 'in the future' or could it mean something more like 'in total' 'in your life' which would mean some could have already happened.

I agree that Jorah's betrayal does not seem very significant in the larger scheme, because she was not killed, also it does not fit clearly into blood, gold or love. In contrast, Mirri's is important, it ends one possible future for Dany, and steers her towards others. Also, its clearly for 'blood' - meaning for Mirri's kin or people, and the blood that they have shed.

Nevertheless, its good to point out it could mean in the future.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Castellan

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

8 hours ago, Castellan said:

I am being lazy and not going back to reread right now, but is it true that the betrayals must happen in the future?

I'm not just talking about betrayals, anything prophetic has to be for the future because the nature/definition of prophecy is already about "the future".

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(Oxford Languages) Prophecy: a prediction of what will happen in the future.

 

If it talks about the past, it is not called prophecy, it is called history. 

Think of it this way; what is the point of writing something that is already known to the reader as prophecy a book later? There is no point. Writing technique; if there is a detail/text that has no positive/negative impact on the story when you remove it, then you don't need it. 

[Craving Peaches]

9 hours ago, Castellan said:

'three betrayals you will know"

An alternative I could see that still fits with the language, is that rather than the betrayals themselves happening in the future, Daenerys comes to realise prior betrayals that have already occurred.

[Aebram]

Peaches, you beat me to the punch on that one.

The words of the prophecy are, "three betrayals you will know ..." At that time, it's true that Jorah had already betrayed Daenerys, but she didn't know about it. So the prophecy could apply to him.

Also, I think that anything from the TV show is weak evidence at best. We know that some parts were written by the George, and some parts were written by other people who got advice from him; but we don't know which parts. This forum is about the books. The TV show does get mentioned from time to time, but I think it's best to keep those references to a minimum.

[Evolett]

On 5/22/2023 at 11:39 AM, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Now let's come to another character that is described with green color; Jorah Mormont.

His family sigil is a black bear on top of green background. He walks around in a green cloak or clothes that has family colors. That's why it's quite possible for him to bring a jinx to Dany (Of course he did something bad to Dany in the first place. But we expect much greater betrayal. Something so important that Undying have to warn Dany).

If Dany is indeed subject to a "green jinx," then it seems to me Jorah has made a switch already - from green to black. The green background of the Mormont sigil depicts a wood, representing the green forests of Bear Island. He forsook this green place, his House and title, when he escaped Eddard's punishment. He's a lone "black bear" and in my view, absolutely devoted to Dany.

His initial betrayal of her though his spying activities occured at the beginning of their journey through the grasslands, when he was still sworn to Viserys and stopped before he swore allegiance to her, accepting her as his Queen. So far, none of the three betrayals proclaimed by the Undying apply to Jorah and will not apply to him in the future, imo. I do not see him betraying her again, ever. 

Jorah's doomed relationship with his wife Lynesse shows how far he is willing to go for the woman he loves. There is nothing he didn't do in his desperation to make her happy. He bankrupted himself and possibly even his family, sold people into slavery, ruined his reputation, lost his title and brought shame upon family in his quest to keep her. He continued to pine for her even after she left him for another man. We can see this pattern repeating itself with Dany. His devotion to her has religious connotations. In his all-consuming need to regain favour, he even strove to bring his "goddess" an "offering" - Tyrion. Mealwhile he has gone through hell on the journey through Essos, all to get back to her - bound in slavery, savagely beaten, caged and branded. None of this has diminished his ardour. 

Another hint at Jorah's reluctance to harm the "fair maiden" can be found In the mummer's show that Penny and Tyrion perform. Jorah is in the role of the bear:

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He went off with the man Morgo to fetch Ser Jorah Mormont from his cage. The knight had not adapted well to bondage. When called upon to play the bear and carry off the maiden fair, he had been sullen and uncooperative, shuffling lifelessly through his paces when he deigned to take part in their mummery at all.

Further, there's a history of Mormonts and other bear-associated characters acting as protectors. Dacey Mormont was a member of Robb's personal guard, dying with him at the RW. Joer looked out for Jon. Before Jorah was elevated to Dany's Queen's Guard, she and Viserys were rescued and looked after by Willem Darry, otherwise thought of by Dany as her "dear old bear". Arya thought of Yoren as a "black bear."

To me, all these signs point to Jorah defending and protecting Dany to the death. And now he's joined the Second Sons and recovered from his ordeal, he's ready to retake his position by her side, for better or worse. From the way he's written, my feeling is he's utterly committed to her, come what may. 

[Walda]

Very interesting, but what does FS stand for?