Tracing Bloodlines - Speculations on House Dondarrion

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if that was Thoros’ doing moreso than Beric’s.

I doubt it because Thoros had his swords lit by wildfire, not blood.  There is something in Beric's blood that lights his sword.  

[Jon Fossoway]

10 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Yes, sure. But there is an element of blood magic here somewhere. And blood magic works by blood ties, not betrothals. I know that something is up with Allyria, but her being betrothed to Beric is unlikely to be the reason why he magically came back to life, not once but 6 times. It is unlikely to be the reason why his blood is able to light swords on fire. And it does not explain why he chose long-dead Catelyn to pass on his last life to.

Oh. Now I see. I shouldn't post so early in the morning with the sleeping pills still kicking. For a single confused moment I thought you were inquiring on why Eddard choose Beric to capture Gregor and not other person.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Jon Fossoway

[Hippocras]

8 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said:

Oh. Now I see. I shouldn't post so early in the morning with the sleeping pills still kicking. For a single confused moment I thought you were inquiring on why Eddard choose Beric to capture Gregor and not other person.

 

Well that choice does suggest some knowledge of Beric that we don't know about. After all, we never actually saw them interact, so even if he is ultra-honourable and qualified, how did Ned know it? They lived at opposite ends of Westeros and Beric was too young to have fought in the war. Maybe it is nothing. Or maybe there is some kind of connection there.

I tend to suspect there is a connection because of my pet theory about the swords, but that is just me, and there are no family trees to help with evidence.

 

Basically it is about the fact that Beric was revived and noone else was, and that his revival (the first one) seems related to Ned's execution.

Ned was executed with Ice. Earlier in the book, Lady was executed with Ice and in the very next chapter Bran woke up as a greenseer and warg which seems to suggest there may be a blood sacrifice connection between those two events.

So if Lady's execution could revive Bran and wake his magic, it follows that Ned's execution could revive someone he had some kind of connection to. The hint that magic was activated by Ned's execution lies in the fact that the comet appeared in the sky immediately afterwards.

Beric loses his personhood every time he loses a life and is revived. But he never loses track of the mission he began for Ned. While that may be the full extent of how the two characters are connected, I have my doubts because there are so many strong hints that blood ties play a key role in magic in this series.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Hippocras

[Nevets]

Martin hasn't seen fit to give us any information about Beric's ancestry.  Given that Beric has been around most of the series, and is now permanently dead (supposedly), I doubt we will get anything.  This would suggest that his ancestry isn't important for the story.  

As for why he was chosen, he was probably among the highest ranking there.  He's an actual Lord ina border area, so has probably led men in skirmishes at least.  Being from the Stormlands, he is neutral, unlikely to favor or disfavor either side.   He is also a Baratheon vassal.  Essentially, he's available, and probably the best choice of those who are.  

As to his resurrection that is Thoros.  The timing is a bit fuzzy, but I think it was after the dragons reappeared.  They might be responsible for the comet as well. They seem to have brought fire magic with them.  As for the flaming sword, he is, I believe, filled with fire magic, hence the ability to light the sword on fire.

I also think it would be really cool if there was more to it than the obvious.  Unfortunately, I doubt there is. 

[Hippocras]

6 hours ago, Nevets said:

Martin hasn't seen fit to give us any information about Beric's ancestry.  Given that Beric has been around most of the series, and is now permanently dead (supposedly), I doubt we will get anything.  This would suggest that his ancestry isn't important for the story.  

As for why he was chosen, he was probably among the highest ranking there.  He's an actual Lord ina border area, so has probably led men in skirmishes at least.  Being from the Stormlands, he is neutral, unlikely to favor or disfavor either side.   He is also a Baratheon vassal.  Essentially, he's available, and probably the best choice of those who are.  

As to his resurrection that is Thoros.  The timing is a bit fuzzy, but I think it was after the dragons reappeared.  They might be responsible for the comet as well. They seem to have brought fire magic with them.  As for the flaming sword, he is, I believe, filled with fire magic, hence the ability to light the sword on fire.

I also think it would be really cool if there was more to it than the obvious.  Unfortunately, I doubt there is. 

Time will tell but I very much suspect that view is short sighted. GRRM has not given us all of the details that we need to figure out the ending and much of that information is deliberately concealed. Why? Because it would tell us too much, and because the full details remain to be worked out. GRRM plans connections, but as for naming characters and creating mini stories for them, well that can wait until he is ready, by his method.

Nevertheless the hints that he plans to reveal connections are there in his histories. Beric is not a one-off character, but a member of a family that appears over and over again in ways that tell us they are connected. All of House Dondarrion did not die or cease to impact the bloodlines of the past leading to current events just because he died.

Your belief that he just happened to be the best person in the room is speculation. It could be true, but this was in the presence of the entire court of King's Landing. Many qualified people were there.

The comet appeared before the dragons and before Dany walked into the fire. It may have helped them to appear, but not the other way around.

[Hippocras]

Interestingly, the very first mention of Beric Dondarrion is also associated with forging and armoury. It is in A Game of Thrones chapter 27, when Ned is on his way to visit Tobho Mott.

Seriously the more we look at this character, the more the association with the myth of Lightbringer (a flaming sword made by human sacrifice) becomes clearer.

[Hippocras]

AGOT Chapter 29
Continuing the chapter by chapter analysis, the next time we see Beric is in A Game of Thrones chapter 29, which covers the tournament. That is the chapter where we meet Thoros of Myr for the first time - so the flaming sword theme gets its introduction. Beric is mentioned there in the context of Jeyne Poole's crush on him, which is a curious detail I don't know what to make of. Maybe because Jeyne and Beric are both doomed to be place-holders for magical forces that are bigger than them? Hard to say without finishing Jeyne's story.

AGOT Chapter 43
Ned sends Beric as commander of the group hunting Gregor Clegane because he outranked the others, including Lothar Mallery who was also a Lord. This is one indication that House Dondarrion is a much more significant and wealthy House than House Mallery. The chapter is among other things an exploration of what justice means, but nothing that hints at the Lightbringer myth - unless justice itself has something to do with Lightbringer.

The only mention of swords really in this chapter is in the description of the Iron Throne and how Kings should never sit easy. The threat of Ned being cut by the throne during the chapter may be a bit of a play on the fact that his decisions in that room that day will lead to his demise.

AGOT Chapters 55
We learn of Beric's first defeat at the Mummer's Ford from Catelyn's perspective. We can confirm that Beric's first revival was before Ned's death so the theory that the two events were linked is disproven. However we can't exclude bloodshed/sacrifice being a factor in the revival as Beric may have had family connections to any one of the others who died with him at the Mummer's Ford (Mallery, Darry, Wylde) or elsewhere. Still, I feel the case would be stronger if one of them died by Valyrian steel. So maybe instead of looking at any of these other deaths at the Mummer's Ford, we should be looking at Viserys's death in Vaes Dothrak. The timing of that death fits, and feels more significant than the others when it comes to matters of blood magic and fire.

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

I want to come back to that idea in my previous post, because I am not sure anyone picked up on it. But I think it is interesting:

The idea that Visery's sacrifice may have been relevant to Beric's revival. Viserys died because he broke Dothraki rules and threatened Dany and her child with a sword. He then died by melted metal, which seems potentially symbolic of the forging process. So in that chapter, either by accident or by design, we have the punishment by death of a key figure, in a way that is associated with both fire and a sword.

Furthermore the fact that the metal involved was gold may be relevant. Gold in this series is very often associated with Lannisters although not exculsively. And so in a very opaque way, GRRM may be hinting at something key about Lannister gold and the flaming sword motif that is so clearly connected to Beric. It is fuzzy, but there may be something there.

 

I keep coming back to bloodlines because I think they are key to the magic. Beric Dondarrion's bloodline I would be willing to bet includes at least 1 Targaryen ancestor and probably more. Thus far the very incomplete Baratheon family tree only mentions one child of Ormund Baratheon and Rhaelle Targaryen, but assuming the princess did not die birthing Steffon Baratheon, then their marriage could easily have lasted until his death in 260, so 15 years. That is sufficient time for one or more siblings to have been born, one of whom may well have been Beric's mother or grandparent. As a powerful Stormlands House, the Dondarrions would have been prime candidates for such a match. That would make Beric a cousin of Robert Baratheon, while of course also connected by blood to Viserys.

[SaffronLady]

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I keep coming back to bloodlines because I think they are key to the magic.

This might be one of the few rules A Magic of Ice and Fire has.

Come to think of it, there really are just a few rules:

1. Rule of Opposites (Ice and Fire, Life and Death, Light and Darkness etc; generally in effect)
2. Life could only be paid for with death;
3. Blood ties link the effects of magic

[Green Stag]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:49 AM, Hippocras said:

Next there is Jena Dondarrion who would have been Baelor's queen. Why was she considered the best match for the heir to the throne in a family obsessed with bloodlines? 

I agree with James Steller that part of it was political due to Baelor being half Dornish.  A marriage with either the Stormlands or the Reach would make the most sense to try and mitigate any remaining hard feelings about a Dornish Queen and a strong Dornish presence at court.  However, there are more prominent houses in both regions.  Baratheon, Swann, Hightower, Redwine, Rowan would all be more prominent / powerful houses.

My thought is that Jena Dondarrion may be a daughter or other descendant of Daena Targaryen.  This would give Jena and Baelor's offspring the blood of Aegon III and helped to prevent any challenges to the throne as well as giving a connection in the Stormlands.

No evidence, but I think it would explain a lot.  We know that multiple good marriages were made for Elaena after she birthed a couple of bastards, so why wouldn't / couldn't a similar marriage into the Dondarrions be made for Jena?

[Hippocras]

8 hours ago, Green Stag said:

I agree with James Steller that part of it was political due to Baelor being half Dornish.  A marriage with either the Stormlands or the Reach would make the most sense to try and mitigate any remaining hard feelings about a Dornish Queen and a strong Dornish presence at court.  However, there are more prominent houses in both regions.  Baratheon, Swann, Hightower, Redwine, Rowan would all be more prominent / powerful houses.

My thought is that Jena Dondarrion may be a daughter or other descendant of Daena Targaryen.  This would give Jena and Baelor's offspring the blood of Aegon III and helped to prevent any challenges to the throne as well as giving a connection in the Stormlands.

No evidence, but I think it would explain a lot.  We know that multiple good marriages were made for Elaena after she birthed a couple of bastards, so why wouldn't / couldn't a similar marriage into the Dondarrions be made for Jena?

I tend to agree that the marriage was an attempt to reintegrate dangerous bloodlines during a very unstable time. I am not sure it came via Daena though.

These are my guesses:

1. When Daena was freed from the maidenvault by Viserys I think she was considered too dangerous to remain in Westeros and was sent overseas. Her marriage to the Archon of Tyrosh secured trade with the free cities during the reign of Viserys (who was in fact very concerned with trade with the free cities). Her first daughter Rohanne married her son Daemon Blackfyre, and a younger daughter or grandaughter Kiera later married Valarr who was, at the time, directly in line for the throne. This was arranged as a way to try to ease tensions surrounding the Blackfyre rebellions. After Valarr's death, Daena's line still very much needed to be integrated to ease tensions, which is why Kiera later married Daeron Targaryen. Two marriages to Targaryen princes is a sure sign that Kiera was a key figure in the line of succession, which would make sense if she was Daena's daughter or granddaughter.

2. Jena, if not descended from Daena, may have descended from her sister Rhaena. We of course know that Rhaena "eventually" became a septa. However the word "eventually" does leave room for a period of marriage between leaving the maidenvault in 171 and becoming a septa upon her husband's death. So my guess is she married a Dondarrion. Furthermore, I also suspect that House Dondarrion may have had earlier ties to house Targaryen via a child of Baela Targaryen and Alyn Velaryon, which is why this was considered an important match for Rhaena in the first place.

3. I think that Aelinor Penrose also descended from Alyn and Baela, and that she was the daughter of Mya Rivers, legitimized sister of King Daeron II. We know, after all, that Aelinor was her husband's cousin, and we also know that she did NOT descend from Elaena.

4. I think that Alys Arryn descended from Rhaena Targaryen (6 Hightower daughters). 

5. Dyana Dayne's need to be integrated into the Targaryen lineage is one I have not figured out entirely. She could, however, have been born of alliances between Marcher lord houses and Dornish houses in the many attempts to seal peace with Dorne, and as such she may have descended from BOTH Baela and Rhaena Targaryen. Or, she could have been the daughter of the other half-sister of Daeron II, Gwenys Rivers.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

The following is all fairly wild speculation at this point with only small suggestive bits to back it up, but I think it makes a lot of things clearer if true:

1. While I have failed to convince others on other threads, I strongly suspect that Larissa Velaryon's "Tarth" daughter, who married a suspiciously old Lord Estermont, was actually Aegon the Uncrowned's bastard. Larissa was sent away from Rhaena in a hurry, at least in part because of their "excessive" closeness (intimacy), however Aegon was known to not shy away from ladies' attentions and this suggests he may have had a bastard or two. The fact that this was hinted, and that Larissa is the only character whose story matches (in a veiled way) the general pattern when an unwed pregnancy occurs, makes Larissa the prime candidate to have birthed such a bastard if indeed there ever was one.

2. So if we take this first point as true, Larissa's Targaryen bastard daughter married an Estermont in or shortly before the year 55, and she may have had a child as early as the year 56. Both House Estermont and House Tarth are interesting outliers in that they rule over islands on the Narrow Sea. There are very strong reasons why House Velaryon would have maintained close relationship with these Houses over the centuries, in order to maintain their naval strength, particularly after the conquest when they became masters of ships. Both are of course Stormlands Houses, but ones whose ties to House Velaryon of Driftmark and House Targaryen of Dragonstone, as well as across the Narrow Sea would have been significant. I therefore consider it likely that a grandchild of Larissa Velaryon became the ancestor of queen Daenaera Velaryon via either Hazel Harte, or Vaemond Velaryon's as yet unnamed wife.

3. These family trees are often minimally populated however. We do not know if Daenaera had any brothers or sisters, or if her uncle Daemion had any children. We also don't know if Vaemond's wife or Hazel Harte had brothers or sisters. But if we consider that any of these could be true, it could mean that not only did Aegon the Uncrowned's bloodline work its way back briefly into the royal succession (until Daena, Rhaena and Elaena were passed over), but it also continued in other Houses in the Stormlands and Crownlands who had historic links to Houses Velaryon, Tarth and Estermont.

Such as House Dondarrion.

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

Changing the title to hopefully spark some more discussion

[Green Stag]

I think we can only speculate, there doesn't seem to be any real evidence to work with to answer most of your questions.  

As to why Beric may have been selected to bring in the Mountain, three possible reasons (or mix of), the first two are particularly compelling:  

1.  Didn't Loras volanteer to go initially?   Ned knew sending Loras was not a good idea - things were already heated between the two after the tourney.  Ned's goal was to bring the Mountain in, not make matters worse with an incident between the two.   I believe Renly was hunting with the King, arguably as Master of Laws he should have been sent, however things needed be acted on quickly.  

2.  Beric was present in the throne room when this issue was addressed.  Sometimes you pretty much go with what is right in front of you, if it appears it would work.

3.  Ned would have been aware of Ned Dayne's presence, as well as Beric future wife being a Dayne.  This may have simply caused Beric / House Dondarrion to be more on Ned's mind.  More interestingly, the former Lord Dayne (whoever he was) and Ned seemed to trust and respect each other, Edric "Ned" Dayne's name can't be a coincidence; he appears to have been named after Ned Stark, and the late Lord Dayne would likely have been in on Jon Snow's parentage.  So, if Ned believes he can trust the Daynes, and Daynes think highly enough of Beric to join their houses, then Ned may think Beric is just as noble and trustworthy as the Daynes he has known, by association.                                                                                    

[Hippocras]

Yes, I feel like people are getting a bit stuck on the "why Ned chose Beric" point without keeping the big picture of what I wanted to discuss in mind.

I know that it is speculative. That was right there in the title, so no surprise. I WANT people to speculate on bloodlines. Because ultimately, even if we don't know everything we need to to piece it all together, it is very clear that bloodlines are very significant for how magic works.

The main thing people need to speculate about here is why Beric is so special that R'hllor brought him back. To me it is a big red flag that something is going on with his bloodline that is probably relevant beyond House Dondarrion.

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

The main thing people need to speculate about here is why Beric is so special that R'hllor brought him back. To me it is a big red flag that something is going on with his bloodline that is probably relevant beyond House Dondarrion.

My idea for that is that Beric does have diluted Targaryen blood - which would be why Jena Dondarrion was chosen as a bride for Baelor Breakspear - she would be a cousin to Baelor of a similar degree as Aelinor Penrose, likely through a daughter of either Baela or Rhaena.

I imagine Beric's sword being ignited by his blood is foreshadowing Brienne and Jon Snow igniting their respective Valyrian blades with their own magical blood (with the Tarths being Targaryen relations Brienne would have Targaryen blood, too).

This may or may not work only after them being resurrected with the kiss of fire. In any case, I imagine this spell thing being more permanent with Valyrian steel blades, causing them to turn into Lightbringer-like weapons, i.e. weapons which burn permanently with their own inner fire.

I'm also imagining that the kiss of fire thing only works with some people, perhaps such with some dragonlord blood, since it feels weird that Thoros would only bring Beric back from death but never try to do it with their other fallen comrades. Cat might also have some Targaryen/dragonlord blood through some Lothston matches in the past ... but even if she didn't hers is a very special case as Beric passed on the spell that animated him to her. That might work, too.

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My idea for that is that Beric does have diluted Targaryen blood - which would be why Jena Dondarrion was chosen as a bride for Baelor Breakspear - she would be a cousin to Baelor of a similar degree as Aelinor Penrose, likely through a daughter of either Baela or Rhaena.

I imagine Beric's sword being ignited by his blood is foreshadowing Brienne and Jon Snow igniting their respective Valyrian blades with their own magical blood (with the Tarths being Targaryen relations Brienne would have Targaryen blood, too).

This may or may not work only after them being resurrected with the kiss of fire. In any case, I imagine this spell thing being more permanent with Valyrian steel blades, causing them to turn into Lightbringer-like weapons, i.e. weapons which burn permanently with their own inner fire.

I'm also imagining that the kiss of fire thing only works with some people, perhaps such with some dragonlord blood, since it feels weird that Thoros would only bring Beric back from death but never try to do it with their other fallen comrades. Cat might also have some Targaryen/dragonlord blood through some Lothston matches in the past ... but even if she didn't hers is a very special case as Beric passed on the spell that animated him to her. That might work, too.

The way you described that makes me think of the glass candles. It is interesting to think of Lightbringer's light and glass candle light as being related and similarly activated, particularly since there seems to also be a connection between obsidian and Valyrian steel in terms of what they can do.

 

Anyway, I tend to agree on Jena. Descent from Baela seems more likely than Rhaena IMO. It is a bit of a puzzle trying to figure out who descends from Baela and who from Rhaena, but there are some clues.

There is not much in the histories to suggest Rhaena's daughters were likely to have ended up married into Stormlands Houses. The Hightowers probably found matches for them in Reach and possibly Westerlands Houses, and I am pretty sure that Rhaena's time in the Vale during the Dance meant at least one of her daughters married into a House in the Vale. However the general effort to knit Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms from Baelor onward means that it is certainly possible that at least one of Rhaena's descendants ended up in a Dornish House, with House Dayne being the most likely bet. I just don't see much connecting Rhaena's line with the Stormlands. I suppose the only small hint is the vaguely academic aura of House Penrose, which could indicate a Hightower/Citadel connection there.

Baela on the other hand became a Velaryon, and House Velaryon had many connections to the Stormlands. What is tricky with Baela, is that we can only confirm one single daughter Laena. She was pregnant at least one more time, but that is where her story ends: A second pregnancy with no confirmed successful birth. We have no idea when she died or how many children she eventually had.

I personally tend to think that a daughter of Baela's married into House Blackwood. I think that Fire and Blood made a specific point of telling us about the closeness of Alyn and Benjicot for a reason. We even learned the year that Addam's bones were returned (138), and a betrothal as part of that same sequence of events does not seem at all improbable. However it is also quite likely that a daughter of Baela and Alyn became a Penrose, for reasons you yourself have pointed out on other threads. So the question is, how many daughters did Alyn and Baela have? Is it possible they actually had no sons, and that House Velaryon passed to another branch after Alyn died? If so it would still be likely that a granddaughter of theirs married back into House Velaryon, however it was not an uninterrupted patrilineal path.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

The way you described that makes me think of the glass candles. It is interesting to think of Lightbringer's light and glass candle light as being related and similarly activated, particularly since there seems to also be a connection between obsidian and Valyrian steel in terms of what they can do.

Glass candles seem to be quite different magical things ... but the historical/mythical Lightbringer could easily enough have been the first Valyrian-steel kind of weapon as indicated by Jon Snow assuming that the dragon steel blade the Last Hero allegedly used might translate to Valyrian steel.

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Anyway, I tend to agree on Jena. Descent from Baela seems more likely than Rhaena IMO. It is a bit of a puzzle trying to figure out who descends from Baela and who from Rhaena, but there are some clues.

There is not much in the histories to suggest Rhaena's daughters were likely to have ended up married into Stormlands Houses. The Hightowers probably found matches for them in Reach and possibly Westerlands Houses, and I am pretty sure that Rhaena's time in the Vale during the Dance meant at least one of her daughters married into a House in the Vale. However the general effort to knit Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms from Baelor onward means that it is certainly possible that at least one of Rhaena's descendants ended up in a Dornish House, with House Dayne being the most likely bet. I just don't see much connecting Rhaena's line with the Stormlands. I suppose the only small hint is the vaguely academic aura of House Penrose, which could indicate a Hightower/Citadel connection there.

Baela on the other hand became a Velaryon, and House Velaryon had many connections to the Stormlands. What is tricky with Baela, is that we can only confirm one single daughter Laena. She was pregnant at least one more time, but that is where her story ends: A second pregnancy with no confirmed successful birth. We have no idea when she died or how many children she eventually had.

I personally tend to think that a daughter of Baela's married into House Blackwood. I think that Fire and Blood made a specific point of telling us about the closeness of Alyn and Benjicot for a reason. We even learned the year that Addam's bones were returned (138), and a betrothal as part of that same sequence of events does not seem at all improbable. However it is also quite likely that a daughter of Baela and Alyn became a Penrose, for reasons you yourself have pointed out on other threads. So the question is, how many daughters did Alyn and Baela have? Is it possible they actually had no sons, and that House Velaryon passed to another branch after Alyn died? If so it would still be likely that a granddaughter of theirs married back into House Velaryon, however it was not an uninterrupted patrilineal path.

There aren't any real clues there, although the second Laena Velaryon being the oldest child of Baela/Rhaena makes it possible that her grandchildren are the ones intermarrying with the grandsons of Aegon IV through Daeron II. If Aelinor and Jena happen to be great-grandchildren of Baela - like Baelor and Aerys I are great-grandchildren of Viserys II - then we could easily see the second Laena marrying into House Penrose, her producing two children (Ronnel Penrose who would marry Princess Elaena as a second wife, having Aelinor with his first wife), and a daughter who ended up marrying into House Dondarrion, becoming Jena's mother. There are enough Targaryen girls around for Aelinor and Jena being descended from different branches but that possibility might be easier. The Aelinor situation cannot be resolved with the idea of a daughter of Baela or Rhaena being her mother.

Rhaena's girls - especially the younger ones which might only be born in the late 140s or 150s - are more likely to be the mothers of whatever brides of Daeron II's sons turn out to be cousins on the Targaryen side.

In light of the fact that Garmund Hightower is a third son and Rhaena Targaryen the last known Targaryen dragonrider makes it exceedingly likely that the couple lived at court or on Dragonstone (where Rhaena is when we last see her) rather than Oldtown, and then the Crown would have had a hand it making matches for the girls and they wouldn't have made it on their own. Chances are not bad that one of the girls ended up marrying into the main branch of House Hightower, but that is just a guess.

The idea that all the girls made matches is also quite a stretch - some might have ended as septas or may have died early or childless. If there is a Targaryen-Dayne connection my guess would be that a younger son or daughter of Alyn and Baela is married to the Lord/Lady of Starfall or their male or female heir in the wake of Daeron's war. It would be a match made after the submission of Dorne but before Daeron's death, perhaps even in a similar way as the romance and eventual affair of Aegon IV and Cassella Vaith. Alyn Velaryon was heavily involved in Dornish matters - hell, if we think about the link to Aliandra Martell already established in FaB he might even broker a match between a child of his and a Dayne before Daeron I started his war. It depends on how many children he and Baela had and how eager they were to make good matches for them. But then - Daeron II's queen Myriah Martell is Dornish. Many Dornish noblemen and noblewomen were at their court, especially the queen's ladies should have included many highborn Dornishwomen. Maekar might have just fallen in love with one of his mother's ladies, and with the parents approving they could have made a match there. The current Daynes could still have Targaryen blood through a younger child of Maron and Daenerys marrying into House Dayne - that is likely also the way Teora Toland got her 'dragon dreams'. We actually don't need an earlier link there. We know that Maron and Daenerys had multiple children, so the blood of the dragon would have spread out among the (Dornish) houses the Martells intermarried with from that time on.

Rhaegel marrying an Arryn also doesn't need to be a cousin match. She would be highborn and noble enough without such a link. However, of course, the Arryns are still the idea house for another Targaryen link as they are all but dead in the main series, and Alys Arryn could be another Aemma Arryn, i.e. the sole surviving offspring of an older Targaryen-Arryn match which is eventually reabsorbed back in the Targaryen bloodline. Rhaena's Vale connection leading to something like that isn't unlikely ... even more so since the Arryns are in pretty good standing with Aegon III at the end of FaB. If you think about it, Alys Arryn could even be a Gulltown Arryn, say, the (great-)granddaughter of Isembard Arryn whose son or grandson might end up marrying a daughter of Rhaena and Garmund.

Pretty sure that Alyn and Baela had sons - in fact I'd assume that the child Baela is pregnant with as FaB ends will turn out to be a boy. If they hadn't any sons, then Driftmark would have likely passed to Alyn's bastard son, Jon Waters. They would have legitimized him after Alyn's apparent death at sea just as Addam and Alyn were legitimized during the Dance. Jon's mother was a royal princess and House Targaryen would have had a vital interest to increase its hold over Driftmark and the Velaryon fleet.

I actually think it not unlikely Baela produces one child for any of Alyn's voyages - so they might have six children at least. We hear that theirs will be a stormy marriage, so a lot of potential for make-up sex leading to pregnancies. But, of course, Alyn's eldest son might die during Daeron's Conquest, so Driftmark might end up passing from Alyn to a grandson or even great-grandson.

[Hippocras]

@Lord Varys One thing I have been wondering about is if we are supposed to take Morning being the last dragon born as some kind of clue that Rhaena's line is the one we should be following the most closely. I am not convinced, but probably that is just bias because I like Baela. For that matter I also like Rhaena the First, Rhaenys Velaryon and Elaena (...) Penrose.

I also wonder if George's description of Alyn and Baela's marriage being "stormy" is actually wordplay. A cheeky hint to look to the Stormlands for their descendants. I would never consider such things to be any kind of proof, but it does seem like something George might do.

[SaffronLady]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:39 PM, Hippocras said:

When Daena was freed from the maidenvault by Viserys I

Viserys II. It was his nephew, not his uncle, who built the Maidenvault after all.

On 7/8/2023 at 6:52 PM, Hippocras said:

Larissa Velaryon's "Tarth" daughter, who married a suspiciously old Lord Estermont, was actually Aegon the Uncrowned's bastard.

I like to think it's Viserys Targaryen's  bastard, if for nothing else then because the poor boy died a horrible death at the hands of Maegor. Seems sad if he didn't even have children left.

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Morning being the last dragon born

Morning is the last named dragon to hatch. I suppose the fact the last dragon was green has more significance than the pink Morning, given the color's supposed connections to usurpers.