GRRM's Habit of Cloning Main Series Characters, for his History Books

[Gilbert Green]

42 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Now that you point it out, I can see a parallel, down to both Daeron and Rhaegar having Dornish wives. But I think the Bonifer Hasty thing is so minor in the books and so easily missed that the majority of readers are barely even aware of it, without which the whole thing falls down. As far as I can remember, nobody ever mentions a query over Rhaegar's legitimacy in ASoIaF, while the queries over Daeron's legitimacy are one of the defining features of his reign.

They are only parallels, so you can always point out differences.  For instance, Rhaegar's birth coincides with a massive tragic inferno, caused by a failed magic ritual, which was premised on the assumption that Rhaegar united the lines of Aerys and Rhaella and was therefore TPTWP.  Nothing parallel happens with Daeron.

Barristan says that Rhaella was always mindful of her duty.  Except that one time.  That one brief time of her love affair with Bonifer.   But if they had loved pure and chaste from afar, this would not have been an exception.  She would have been mindful of her duty. 

These hints may be very coy.  But it is hard to see the point to any of it if Rhaegar was not the result.

You can resist these hints as unconvincing.  But you can do the same with Daeron.  After all, who cares about Blackfyre propaganda. 

[Jon Fossoway]

Well, you gotta consider that George is not a big novel writer, nor a saga writer until the one saga that made him worldwide famous. His 1000 worlds, which took most of his writing career, is a loosely connected set of short stories to short novels. Tuf Voyaging is a pretty standard peripatetic independent stories that revolve around a chief protagonist. I think Dyring of the Light is his biggest novel until A Game of Thrones and it's got a lot action packed fillers. His strength does not lie on producing a varied set of characters, but taking ideas and working and reworking on 'em, kinda obsessively. In 'Starlady' there is a proto-Targaryen minor character; there is the theme of collective consciousness on several of his stories. But I consider it actually a strong feat of his as a writer. Given he develops these themes over and over, he becomes very good at writing them. Varys is not a clone of Larys. I think he intentionally made them sound and look similar (both lacking physically...) but in terms of character development, even though they perform the same job, they are far away on the dining table from each other. 

About Lyonel and Robert's similarities, that is yet to be seen, since we've got Lyonel's bit on the D&E stories, but we'll really see how he fares as Storm King and then we could be more precise on a comparison. Right now, they both share the typical Baratheon physical treats and the mercurial personalities, to be sure.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Jon Fossoway

[Sandy Clegg]

9 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said:

there is the theme of collective consciousness on several of his stories

Do we think this is where ASOIAF is headed? (I've still not read any of GRRM's other works pre-AGOT by the way.) 

if so (and I'm not especially 'pro or anti' anything as long as George makes it interesting) ... has the groundwork been laid sufficiently in the books? So far we have intimations from Bran's chapters of the so-called 'weirwood net': an offshoot of skin-changing powers, which essentially involve a consciousness disassociating from itself and embedding into the mind of another living being.

So that would mean we already have all the basic components of the idea that: 'a mind can exist separate from the body'. Which means, at a technical level, that death is no longer a barrier to our POV characters having continued adventures. I say technically, because so far only Bran has shown this ability. Regardless, if one character can do it then it opens the door to other characters learning how. Especially if Bran helps them, or they are fellow Starks (like Arya and Jon) who have also shown  signs of having related powers. Or if George simply finds a way to make it work narratively.

It just feels that, if George has been building to a shift to characters inhabiting a less 'physical' space - via a collective consciousness, or a version thereof - then it's been a really 'slow burn' up to now. Can we expect TWOW to shift gear, following Jon's death, to really explore such a 'world of consciousness'  - which might begin with Jon (in consciousness form) inhabiting Ghost's body? Where else might Jon's mind end up, if his body gets e.g. burned? And how would fans react to such a radical shift?

Sorry if this was slightly off-topic.

[Springwatch]

On 7/8/2023 at 5:52 PM, James Steller said:

Odd. I thought he just ignored her and walked away from her. And then Bella asked Arya what was wrong with him.

You're right. But a bit later Gendry thinks Arya is talking down to him and gets annoyed: "Go away. I want to drink this wine in peace. Then maybe I'll go and find that black-haired girl and ring her bell for her."

[James Steller]

40 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

You're right. But a bit later Gendry thinks Arya is talking down to him and gets annoyed: "Go away. I want to drink this wine in peace. Then maybe I'll go and find that black-haired girl and ring her bell for her."

That seems more like he was trying to goad Arya, though. 

[Springwatch]

7 minutes ago, James Steller said:

That seems more like he was trying to goad Arya, though. 

Sure. I'm just saying, the idea's in his mind. (ETA, it's not obvious that talking about Bella would goad Arya anyway.)

Edited July 11, 2023 by Springwatch

[James Steller]

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Sure. I'm just saying, the idea's in his mind. (ETA, it's not obvious that talking about Bella would goad Arya anyway.)

It’s been a while since I read that passage, but I thought Gendry was going through an inferiority complex when he realised Arya’s social rank. And wasn’t it obvious by then that Arya had a crush on him? I could have sworn that it was just the two of them lashing out at each other.

[chrisdaw]

9 hours ago, James Steller said:

It’s been a while since I read that passage, but I thought Gendry was going through an inferiority complex when he realised Arya’s social rank. And wasn’t it obvious by then that Arya had a crush on him? I could have sworn that it was just the two of them lashing out at each other.

You're completely correct.

They both have the hots for each other, consciously or not. Gendry understands his feelings better than Arya, finds out she's highborn and can read and what not and so understands they can never be and starts becoming resentful of her highness and also puts up barriers as a defensive measure, Arya feels the shift but doesn't understand what's happening because she isn't as aware of her feelings and wouldn't see the class difference for the barrier that it is.

[Tradecraft]

On 7/5/2023 at 7:21 AM, sifth said:

Anyone else notice how GRRM seems to have a habit of basically just copying characters from his main series, slightly tweets their backstories and just inserts them into his history books. The Laughing Storm basically is Robert 2.0 and Larys is basically just Varys and Littlefinger combined into one person. 

Yes, it's called parallels. He's using one story to tell another indirectly. 

 

So there will be Ned and Lyanna parallels. Brandon Stark parallels. These people will "evoke" these main characters. 

 

By this way, you can use one story to shed light on another. 

 

In particular, the story which keeps getting repeated is Roberts Rebellion of which we know little. The present day ASOIAF book POV chapters are telling us something about Robert's Rebellion through parallel characters. 

That's why there's so many characters and GRRM doesn't lose track. 

That's why the books take so long to write. 

 

[Sandy Clegg]

6 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Yes, it's called parallels. He's using one story to tell another indirectly. 

On a huge scale, too. Once you start reading the parallels as echoes or foreshadowings the reread becomes so much more fun. It’s almost like a narrative game of Where’s Wally.

The real trick is spotting the ultra obscure ones.

For example, Lysono Maar is clearly a Dany ‘clone’.

Quote

… a Lyseni named Lysono Maar, with lilac eyes and white-gold hair and lips that would have been the envy of a whore. At first glance, Griff had almost taken him for a woman. His fingernails were painted purple, and his earlobes dripped with pearls and amethysts.

Dany colours galore.

Becomes clearer if you do verbal gymnastics on his pronunciation.

Lysono Maar - Lies Are No More

Lies are no more - Slayer of Lies

[Tradecraft]

5 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

On a huge scale, too. Once you start reading the parallels as echoes or foreshadowings the reread becomes so much more fun. It’s almost like a narrative game of Where’s Wally.

The real trick is spotting the ultra obscure ones.

For example, Lysono Maar is clearly a Dany ‘clone’.

Dany colours galore.

Becomes clearer if you do verbal gymnastics on his pronunciation.

Lysono Maar - Lies Are No More

Lies are no more - Slayer of Lies

I am currently trying to use the parallels to determine the fate of Lyanna. 

It's very difficult. 

But I have found insane clues about Ned Stark.... the Valonqar. 

[Sandy Clegg]

6 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

I have found insane clues about Ned Stark.... the Valonqar. 

I've posted some pretty bonkers things in my time, @Tradecraft so I recognise game when I see it. Look forward to reading this, and the ensuing furore