Ramsay Parallels during Roberts Rebellion?

[Tradecraft]

I need help with something. I am looking for parallels for Ramsay Snow/Bolton during Roberts Rebellion. 

Basically, who comes to mind when you read about Ramsay (during Roberts Rebellion)

 

The way to find a parallel is through; 

-Titles (two people with the same title)

-Physical description (looking at one "evokes" the other, even if they are inversions of each other)

-experiences shared with another character (both got "kidnapped", wards, etc.)

-nicknames (shared with or describes another character... "Dead stark girl")

 

 

Here's what I have so far for Ramsay; 

 

Titles

-Lord of the Dreadfort

-Lord of Wintefell

-Castellan of the Dreadfort

 

Nicknames

-Heke

-Bastard of Bolton

-Reek (#2)

-Red Helm

 

Experiences

-Kills trueborn Bolton brother (allegedly)

-Kidnaps and marries Donella Hornwood (starves her to death)

-Swaps places with Reek (Reek is killed by Rodrik Cassel)

-Prisoner of Winterfell (1st the Starks, later with Theon)

-Fakes the death of Bran and Rickon for Theon (kills the miller's boys instead)

-Kills the Ironborn witnesses (so no one reveals the secret of Bran and Rickon)

-Released by Theon in exchange for Bolton support against Northern host

-Attacks the Northern Host, sacks Winterfell

-Tortures Theon (turns Theon into Reek). 

-Lifts siege of Moat Cailin for Roose Bolton

-Marries Jeyne/"Arya" in Winterfell (to solidify claim to Wintefell)

-Abuses Jeyne/"Arya"

-Supposedly sends the Pink Letter, after Jeyne/"Arya" escapes

 

Description

Roose calls him "Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay's nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. "

Locke says " But this bastard son of his ... they say he's mad and cruel, a monster."

Robett Glover "The Boltons have always been as cruel as they are cunning, but this one seems a beast in human skin.^[36]

He lacks courtesy. "Power tastes best when sweetened by courtesy; you had best learn that if you ever hope to rule"

"His blood is bad. He needs to be leeched. The leeches suck away the bad blood, all the rage and pain. No man can think so full of anger. Ramsay, though ... his tainted blood would poison even leeches, I fear."

Sharp lessons. "Underneath the Dreadfort, he had learned there were far worse things than death. Ramsay had taught him that lesson, finger by finger and toe by toe, and it was not one that he was ever like to forget."

His main weapons are; a falchion, a dagger, and a flaying knife, all with hilts of yellow bone

-His main form of attack is ambuscade (Lady Hornwood) and attack from the rear (sack of Winterfell)

 

Appearance: 

-Ugly, big boned and slope shouldered, fleshiness indicating he will be fat later in life

-skin is pink and blotchy, his nose broad, his hair long and dark and dry.

- Although his mouth is small, Ramsay's lips are wide and meaty, wormy looking, and he smiles a wet-lipped smile

-His distinctive eyes resemble Roose's - small, close-set, and oddly pale, like two chips of dirty ice. Ramsay sometimes wears a garnet cut in the shape of a drop of blood in his right ear

 

When you think of Ramsay, who does he evoke?

What is the inverse of Ramsay?

Who "torments" characters like Theon?

Who (allegedly) killed their brother?

Edited July 13, 2023 by Tradecraft

[Evolett]

I think GRRM has been careful to spread parallels to Ramsay amongst several characters in the narrative. There are only partial parallels to be found. There are some similarities that apply to Roose as well or to Roose rather than Ramsay. 

 

Ramsay and Varamyr the skinchanger:

- Varamyr killed his younger brother Bump.

- he killed his mentor Haggon and settled into Haggon's cabin, reminiscent of Ramsay's desire to kill Bran and Rickon and later taking over Winterfell as its lord (this applies to Roose as well, murdering Robb).

- in the pink letter, Ramsay threatens to cut out Jon Snow's heart and eat it. This is what Varamyr does to Haggon, albeit in wolf form.

- Like Ramsay, Varamyr is a rapist though he does not kidnap the women outright but sends his shadowcat for them. He also does not inflict further harm upon his female victims. He does kill the brothers, husbands or other "heroes" that come to avenge their women.  

 

Rorge, from the Wiki:

Quote

According to semi-canon sources, Rorge ran a dog and bear fighting pit in Flea Bottom. He found Biter as an orphan and raised him ferally to fight dogs in the pit.

Ramsay turns Theon into a "dog", like Rorge basically does to Biter. Rorge later gets hold of the Hound's helm, commiting war crimes in his name. At Saltpans, he leaves a trail of butchered babes and ravished women in his wake. He is known as the "Mad Dog of Saltpans." Ramsay is associated with this kind of butchery as well as with hounds. Both are said to be "beasts in human skin:"

Quote

“The Boltons have always been as cruel as they were cunning, but this one seems a beast in human skin,” (Ramsay) said Glover.

-------------

“There is nothing good about that helm, nor the men who wore it,” said the red priest. “Sandor Clegane was a man in torment, and Rorge a beast in human skin.”

 

Chett is another good partial parallel

- plots to kill his commander, akin to killing a liege lord

- usurping the stronghold of another: thinks of killing Craster, of installing himself in Craster's Keep and taking over Craster's young wives

- killed a woman in his youth for which he was sent to the Watch

- in charge of the Night's Watch's hunting and tracking dogs

- imagines himself a lord with a banner not unlike that of Bolton

 

Other suspects:

Gregor Clegane (monstrous, a rapist, murderer, child killer, dog symbolism, turning his brother the Hound into a tortured soul (Theon parallel).

Joffery - murdered before he could do even more damage.

Daario Naharis - Dany's "monster," like Ramsay, carries two unusual knives. Also suggests a red wedding style scenario to Daenerys:

Quote

 Fickle, faithless, brutal. He will never be more than he is. He will never be the stuff of kings. “The pyramids are strong,” she explained to him. “We could take them only at great cost. The moment we attack one the others will rise against us.” “Then winkle them out of their pyramids on some pretext. A wedding might serve. Why not? Promise your hand to Hizdahr and all the Great Masters will come to see you married. When they gather in the Temple of the Graces, turn us loose upon them.”

 

The Mad King, known for torturing and burning his victims. Also termed as "a crowned beast."

Euron!

Edited July 12, 2023 by Evolett

[Hugorfonics]

10 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

When you think of Ramsay, who does he evoke?

Ramsay is Ramsay. Trueborn heir of Winterfell.

10 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Who (allegedly) killed their brother?

I think the allegedly is a strong part. Euron allegedly raped his sister in law, Gregor allegedly murdered his sister. It's all conjecture but we think the worst because these characters are the worst. But they probably didn't

10 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Who "torments" characters like Theon?

Ned. And then also Theon himself. (Torments Theon not like Theon)

10 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

What is the inverse of Ramsay?

Stark. So much of Bolton mojo is just mimicking Stark magic. Also Arya and the faceless 

[Jon Fossoway]

I don't think GRRM made a parallel to Ramsay deliberately. Ramsay is Ramsay, a sick fuck. But... Jon Snow is, to me, a character that shares some of Ramsay's feats, although the development of the plot made both very different on the surface. I mean, basically Jon is a good willed dude; Ramsay is a sick fuck ill intentioned dude.

Both born out of wedlock; both adopted and taken into the family household by the alledged father.

Then there's someinversed feats: Jon Snow has Ghost, a good natured, kinda shy direwolf, that Jon keeps at his side; Ramsay has a pack of hunting dogs (who are cousins to wolves), that he takes care of. Feral, murdering dogs. Ghost mirrors Jon's character; those feral dogs are very much like Ramsay's personality.

Ramsay rose to a position of power (lord of Winterfell); Jon rose to a position of power (Lord Commander of the Night's Watch). Both are facing problems in each station. Ramsay has an ongoing coup inside Winterfell; Jon was actually stabbed [probably] to death by his subordinates in Castle Black. 

Ramsay got legitimized by a crown's decree, so he is now a Bolton. We are yet to see this happening to Jon Snow and in which circumstances.

Ramsay and Jon are initially both impulsive. Jon nearly broke his vows (well, he actually did) for good; Ramsay... well, in a way even good ol' Roose acknowledges Ramsay is not a very trustable leader because he is reckless. Jon and Ramsay are actually very transparent characters in this way: you KNOW Ramsay is an evil mfker and people around him also know because Ramsay does grotesque sh*t; Jon behaves naively and sometimes a bit pedantic (at the start of his duties as a recruit at least) and he just can't hide that, people around him notice it.

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Jon Fossoway

[Tradecraft]

14 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

I don't think GRRM made a parallel to Ramsay deliberately. Ramsay is Ramsay, a sick fuck. But... Jon Snow is, to me, a character that shares some of Ramsay's feats, although the development of the plot made both very different on the surface. I mean, basically Jon is a good willed dude; Ramsay is a sick fuck ill intentioned dude.

Both born out of wedlock; both adopted and taken into the family household by the alledged father.

Then there's someinversed feats: Jon Snow has Ghost, a good natured, kinda shy direwolf, that Jon keeps at his side; Ramsay has a pack of hunting dogs (who are cousins to wolves), that he takes care of. Feral, murdering dogs. Ghost mirrors Jon's character; those feral dogs are very much like Ramsay's personality.

Ramsay rose to a position of power (lord of Winterfell); Jon rose to a position of power (Lord Commander of the Night's Watch). Both are facing problems in each station. Ramsay has an ongoing coup inside Winterfell; Jon was actually stabbed [probably] to death by his subordinates in Castle Black. 

Ramsay got legitimized by a crown's decree, so he is now a Bolton. We are yet to see this happening to Jon Snow and in which circumstances.

Ramsay and Jon are initially both impulsive. Jon nearly broke his vows (well, he actually did) for good; Ramsay... well, in a way even good ol' Roose acknowledges Ramsay is not a very trustable leader because he is reckless. Jon and Ramsay are actually very transparent characters in this way: you KNOW Ramsay is an evil mfker and people around him also know because Ramsay does grotesque sh*t; Jon behaves naively and sometimes a bit pedantic (at the start of his duties as a recruit at least) and he just can't hide that, people around him notice it.

 

Jon is interesting. He is a Ned parallel because he looks identical to him. 

FYI, I'm looking for a parallel in/during Robert's Rebellion specifically. I should have been more specific

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Tradecraft

[LongRider]

13 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

But... Jon Snow is, to me, a character that shares some of Ramsay's feats, although the development of the plot made both very different on the surface.

Thoughtful post.  Jon is usually compared with Dany, and rightly so.  Your comments make me wonder if Ramsay is going to become not a big baddie, but a nasty baddie we might not have expected.  A Northern baddie who might cause trouble, that, well for instance, folks (like me) have not considered before.    hmmmmmm....

[csuszka1948]

25 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Thoughtful post.  Jon is usually compared with Dany, and rightly so.  Your comments make me wonder if Ramsay is going to become not a big baddie, but a nasty baddie we might not have expected.  A Northern baddie who might cause trouble, that, well for instance, folks (like me) have not considered before.    hmmmmmm....

 

I really hope not. Ramsay's incredible good luck has to run out once.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

I really hope not. Ramsay's incredible good luck has to run out once.

Fair enough, but unlike Dany, Ramsay could be seen as a wild card or spoiler, who makes fighting the Others a bit more interesting and dangerous.  

[Tradecraft]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ramsay is Ramsay. Trueborn heir of Winterfell.

I think the allegedly is a strong part. Euron allegedly raped his sister in law, Gregor allegedly murdered his sister. It's all conjecture but we think the worst because these characters are the worst. But they probably didn't

Ned. And then also Theon himself. (Torments Theon not like Theon)

Stark. So much of Bolton mojo is just mimicking Stark magic. Also Arya and the faceless 

Thanks!

This was really damn good. 

I'm trying to focus on Roberts Rebellion period. Any insight?

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said:

I don't think GRRM made a parallel to Ramsay deliberately. Ramsay is Ramsay, a sick fuck. But... Jon Snow is, to me, a character that shares some of Ramsay's feats, although the development of the plot made both very different on the surface. I mean, basically Jon is a good willed dude; Ramsay is a sick fuck ill intentioned dude.

Both born out of wedlock; both adopted and taken into the family household by the alledged father.

Then there's someinversed feats: Jon Snow has Ghost, a good natured, kinda shy direwolf, that Jon keeps at his side; Ramsay has a pack of hunting dogs (who are cousins to wolves), that he takes care of. Feral, murdering dogs. Ghost mirrors Jon's character; those feral dogs are very much like Ramsay's personality.

Ramsay rose to a position of power (lord of Winterfell); Jon rose to a position of power (Lord Commander of the Night's Watch). Both are facing problems in each station. Ramsay has an ongoing coup inside Winterfell; Jon was actually stabbed [probably] to death by his subordinates in Castle Black. 

Ramsay got legitimized by a crown's decree, so he is now a Bolton. We are yet to see this happening to Jon Snow and in which circumstances.

Ramsay and Jon are initially both impulsive. Jon nearly broke his vows (well, he actually did) for good; Ramsay... well, in a way even good ol' Roose acknowledges Ramsay is not a very trustable leader because he is reckless. Jon and Ramsay are actually very transparent characters in this way: you KNOW Ramsay is an evil mfker and people around him also know because Ramsay does grotesque sh*t; Jon behaves naively and sometimes a bit pedantic (at the start of his duties as a recruit at least) and he just can't hide that, people around him notice it.

 

Ramsay is like a bad version of Jon. Actually living up to the 'evil Bastard' stereotype. The thing Jon really doesn't want to be associated with. Ramsay has killed/will kill his trueborn siblings for their inheritance, general treacherous nature, etc.

Compare Jon's dream where he beheads Robb and screams 'I am the Lord of Winterfell' with how Ramsay supposedly did kill Domeric (not to mention Roose says he will kill his other sons with Fat Walda).

[Hugorfonics]

9 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Thanks!

This was really damn good. 

Np, I think Ramsays fascinating.

9 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

I'm trying to focus on Roberts Rebellion period. Any insight?

Maybe Aerys to Jaime? Propping him up at Harrenhal only to humiliate him. Further toying with him and getting him to do his bidding that goes against his house. Also Jaimes a replacement, an empty soul living in someone else's shell.

But there are 7 of them, while there's only one Reek. And while Aerys created his hero, Theon created himself, the humiliation though gets rid of that. And the toying I still think works, but while Aerys orders Jaime to stop Tywin is beneficial it's not to the level that Reek does when he like conquers MC or makes Ramsay a "Stark". And of course, Jaime kills Aerys which is not something I believe Reek is capable of.