Why Would Dothraki Follow Dany in the First Place?

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I know, but book literally says this:

Basically Dothraki let people trade in Vaes Dothrak but they themselves don't seem to take part.

It's taxed. All traders pay the Dothraki for the privilege.

They don't understand our version of buying and selling, true. But they clearly of some concept of something. To say Dothraki don't utilize trade networks is obviously wrong.

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think the Freefolk and Mountain Clans raid to increase population, given they seem to focus on women of childbearing age and children.

Easy targets

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

To say Dothraki don't utilize trade networks is obviously wrong.

But they don't. They let it happen beside them, they themselves don't take part. Having traders give symbolic payment for the privilege of trading there is not them taking part in trade, same as getting tribute from Free Cities isn't them taking part in trade. The book spells this out...

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The caravans made their way to Vaes Dothrak from east and west not so much to sell to the Dothraki as to trade with each other, Ser Jorah had explained. The riders let them come and go unmolested, so long as they observed the peace of the sacred city, did not profane the Mother of Mountains or the Womb of the World, and honored the crones of the dosh khaleen with the traditional gifts of salt, silver, and seed.

Besides, there is nothing the Dothraki seem to want to trade for, because they have the slaves to do everything, and no one else needs to trade with them given they can get the stuff elsewhere.

[Alester Florent]

I'm not sure that Dany will be able to convince the Dothraki that she is the Stallion Who Mounts the World, not least because she is a woman, and stallions are male by definition - unless we're going to get another "translation error" as with "prince who was promised". And the Dosh Khaleen prophesied that she would give birth to the Stallion, not that she was the Stallion herself.

But she might, at a stretch, be able to convince them that Drogon is.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

And the Dosh Khaleen prophesied that she would give birth to the Stallion, not that she was the Stallion herself.

But she might, at a stretch, be able to convince them that Drogon is.

Well, she sure gave birth to Drogon, that one everybody at the pyre could prove.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

But they don't. They let it happen beside them, they themselves don't take part. Having traders give symbolic payment for the privilege of trading there is not them taking part in trade, same as getting tribute from Free Cities isn't them taking part in trade. The book spells this out...

Yea they get gifts of salt silver and seed. That's taxes and  then they police the markets.

It's clearly a highly functioning and efficient market...

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Besides, there is nothing the Dothraki seem to want to trade for, because they have the slaves to do everything, and no one else needs to trade with them given they can get the stuff elsewhere.

But why get the stuff elsewhere when they bring you stuff?

And they trade like everything, food clothes spices gems ivory tiger pelts and Dornish wine, like why should they not want this stuff?

3 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I'm not sure that Dany will be able to convince the Dothraki that she is the Stallion Who Mounts the World, not least because she is a woman, and stallions are male by definition - unless we're going to get another "translation error" as with "prince who was promised". And the Dosh Khaleen prophesied that she would give birth to the Stallion, not that she was the Stallion herself.

But she might, at a stretch, be able to convince them that Drogon is.

Its like what Renly said

Quote

Renly shrugged. "Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?" He did not wait for an answer. "Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer." He swept a hand across the campfires that burned from horizon to horizon. "Well, there is my claim, as good as Robert's ever was.

They can convince themselves, but nobody is saying no to Drogon

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And they trade like everything, food clothes spices gems ivory tiger pelts and Dornish wine

Daenerys trades this, not the Dothraki.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But why get the stuff elsewhere when they bring you stuff?

What are they bringing? Everything they have is horse-related. And you would have to wait until the Khalasar showed up. And the book is quite clear that the Dothraki don't trade.

[SeanF]

It may just be a case of semantics, the same way that you brought “tribute” to the Emperor of China, and he offered “gifts” in return.

It’s hard to think of a people who truly don’t know how to trade.  In fact, Daenerys was effectively sold, in return for slaves and horses going to Illyrio.

[Craving Peaches]

34 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It may just be a case of semantics, the same way that you brought “tribute” to the Emperor of China, and he offered “gifts” in return.

It’s hard to think of a people who truly don’t know how to trade.  In fact, Daenerys was effectively sold, in return for slaves and horses going to Illyrio.

I know what you mean, but the text says this:

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The Dothraki did not truly comprehend this business of buying and selling.

And this:

Quote

The caravans made their way to Vaes Dothrak from east and west not so much to sell to the Dothraki as to trade with each other, Ser Jorah had explained. 

On the other hand, the Wiki contradicts the first quote and says this:

Quote

Buying and selling is considered to be unmanly by the Dothraki,^[24] and they instead use giving and receiving gifts as a common way for doing trade.^[25][26][22] However, giving a gift in return might not always occur immediately upon receiving a gift.^[27] This is exemplified by the Dothraki "selling" their captives on occasion to the Slaver Cities.^[8] They call these slaves "gifts", and as payment receive gifts from the slavers.^[26]

 

Also, the only thing Dothraki have to 'trade' is slaves, which Daenerys wants to get rid of.

Also, the Dothraki do not 'tax' trade in Vaes Dothrak, traders just have to give a symbolic gift.

Quote

The riders let them come and go unmolested, so long as they observed the peace of the sacred city, did not profane the Mother of Mountains or the Womb of the World, and honored the crones of the dosh khaleen with the traditional gifts of salt, silver, and seed.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I know what you mean, but the text says this:

And this:

On the other hand, the Wiki contradicts the first quote and says this:

 

Also, the only thing Dothraki have to 'trade' is slaves, which Daenerys wants to get rid of.

Also, the Dothraki do not 'tax' trade in Vaes Dothrak, traders just have to give a symbolic gift.

Even with horses, “no trading” makes no sense.  Horse owners buy and sell them, and hire stallions for breeding.  Not to mention, every horse-owning culture races them, and bets on the outcome.  Gambling is old as trade.

I’d not be surprised to see this aspect of Dothraki culture retconned, so that Dany at 13 was too young to understand that what the Dothraki call “gifts” is really trading.  

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Daenerys trades this, not the Dothraki.

Everyone trades everything 

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

What are they bringing?

They don't have to bring anything, they facilitate the markets and tax it.

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Everything they have is horse-related.

Bells, swords, clothing. 

Everyone wants stuff

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

And you would have to wait until the Khalasar showed up

What does this mean? The markets are vibrant.

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

And the book is quite clear that the Dothraki don't trade.

Of course they do. Asoiaf starts with Viserys' trade. They don't have our specific word and they don't use currency like we do, but, they trade all the time

[SeanF]

56 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Everyone trades everything 

They don't have to bring anything, they facilitate the markets and tax it.

Bells, swords, clothing. 

Everyone wants stuff

What does this mean? The markets are vibrant.

Of course they do. Asoiaf starts with Viserys' trade. They don't have our specific word and they don't use currency like we do, but, they trade all the time

Plenty of cultures have affected to despise trade (to an absurd degree, eg 18th/19th century Britain, when we were the foremost trading nation.). But, that does not stop them trading.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Everyone trades everything 

They don't have to bring anything, they facilitate the markets and tax it.

Bells, swords, clothing. 

Everyone wants stuff

What does this mean? The markets are vibrant.

Of course they do. Asoiaf starts with Viserys' trade. They don't have our specific word and they don't use currency like we do, but, they trade all the time

Add in the fact the wiki says dothraki as individuals travel the free cities and wear fine fabrics and sweet perfumes..they wont pay for that  or their food/lodgings with promises !

 

And at least 2 known dothraki fighting in sellsword companies so theres at least 2 on salary as well as the pit fighters.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Plenty of cultures have affected to despise trade (to an absurd degree, eg 18th/19th century Britain, when we were the foremost trading nation.). But, that does not stop them trading.

Yea for sure, like in Imperial China the elite ruling class considered merchants to be scum of the earth but that didnt stop them from building and maintaining the silk road.

Although, I don't think Dothraki despise it. They just, idk, don't speak English. Give a give get a gift is definitely their motto, although sometimes they receive tribute so thatd mean get a gift and leave.

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

And at least 2 known dothraki fighting in sellsword companies so theres at least 2 on salary as well as the pit fighters.

The dude who chopped Jaime's hand off, right? Who's the other one?

Exiled Dothraki Id think would be a regular thing, just lay low outside the sea till the heat dies down. But for sure, plenty of money to be made as a sellsword or whatever trade so there's definitely some concept of getting paid 

[astarkchoice]

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

The dude who chopped Jaime's hand off, right? Who's the other one?

Exiled Dothraki Id think would be a regular thing, just lay low outside the sea till the heat dies down. But for sure, plenty of money to be made as a sellsword or whatever trade so there's definitely some concept of getting paid 

Yes

The other is caggo corpsekiller....the guy with a v.s steel arkh! I dont think they are exiled i think its more like when the amish choose to go into the big cities! 

[gibbons22]

It was a bit of an out there theory but I recall reading as part of the 'Patchface, herald of the apocalypse' theory that the Mother of Mountains could be a volcano.

If this is the case, I could see Danny gaining the support of the Dothraki through a combination of religion and shock and awe. If she were to summon (or descend upon them on the back of) Drogon while in the presence of the Khals just as the mountain erupts. At that point either they follow her willingly (unlikely I expect) or she fries the Khals and offers anyone else the chance to challenge her to mounted combat until everyone is kneeling or barbequed. 

[Tyrosh Lannister]

Does Dany even want the dothraki along with her ?

Edited July 17, 2023 by Tyrosh Lannister

[Jon Fossoway]

I've maintained the notion that Daenerys will arrive Westeros fleeing from Essos. The mantra If I look back I'm lost is not there to just signal an aesthetic water mark of her POVs, they do signal her entire arc. He is constantly leaving stuff and people behind, and sometimes undeliberately producing damage, like in Astapor. She is breaking the established equilibrium in Slaver's Bay and she isn't working out durable solutions. I don't think other dothraki khalassars will join her, and the few still loyal to her will either fade or die. There'll come a point she runs out of allies and escapes Essos, all her essosi enterprises having failed, with a handful of followers. Westeros is the arena in where things will decide for good, Essos was a knot kept around for too long.

To be honest, dothrakis in Westeros has no sense. They looked silly in the show already.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Jon Fossoway

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

I've maintained the notion that Daenerys will arrive Westeros fleeing from Essos. The mantra If I look back I'm lost is not there to just signal an aesthetic water mark of her POVs, they do signal her entire arc. He is constantly leaving stuff and people behind, and sometimes undeliberately producing damage, like in Astapor. She is breaking the established equilibrium in Slaver's Bay and she isn't working out durable solutions. I don't think other dothraki khalassars will join her, and the few still loyal to her will either fade or die. There'll come a point she runs out of allies and escapes Essos, all her essosi enterprises having failed, with a handful of followers. Westeros is the arena in where things will decide for good, Essos was a knot kept around for too long.

To be honest, dothrakis in Westeros has no sense. They looked silly in the show already.

That would make her entire story up till the end of ADWD a waste of time, and no one would support a fugitive.

What would be the point of other POV characters travelling to meet her, if it had no impact on the overall story?

Edited July 17, 2023 by SeanF

[Jon Fossoway]

Just now, SeanF said:

That would make her entire story up till the end of ADWD a waste of time, and no one would support a fugitive.

Would be the point of other POV characters travelling to meet her, if it has no impact on the story?

Her marriage to Drogo failed very quickly in its political objectives, so it could be considered a waste of time. Her meddlings in Astapor failed horribly, and could cost her most trusted advisor, Barry, his life. This could be some plot advancement, but fundamentally she wasted time in Astapor. The fugitive part I agree, that will be a hard pill to swallow, but Daenerys has been making people swallow hard pills since the beginning of her arc.

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Does Dany even want the dothraki along with her ?

I think she'll take whatever troops she can get. And after all, it was the plan for Khal Drogo to invade Westeros before he died.