If Rhaegar had Blackfyre or Dark Sister

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 7/24/2023 at 10:32 AM, Jon Snowfyre said:

Do you think he could’ve beaten Robert on the Trident? Robert was hella injured from their fight already. I imagine with VS being able to cut through his armor, Rhaegar would’ve won.

Rhaegar still would have lost .

[SirBronzeFalcon]

To answer this question, we must first make a reconstruction of the battle.

NOTE: This is a reconstruction with information prior to The Winds of Winter. Once we get The Winds of Winter, things may change.

...

 

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The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid.

ASOS - Jaime V

 

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"On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, 'I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,' and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan's wounds."

AGOT - Eddard VIII

 

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Before I took Robert's pardon I fought against him on the Trident. You were on the other side of that battle, Mormont, were you not?

ASOS - Daenerys V

 

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Lyn Corbray had slain almost as many men in duels as he had in battle. He had won his spurs during Robert's Rebellion, she knew, fighting first against Lord Jon Arryn at the gates of Gulltown, and later beneath his banners on the Trident, where he had cut down Prince Lewyn of Dorne, a white knight of the Kingsguard. Petyr said that Prince Lewyn had been sorely wounded by the time the tide of battle swept him to his final dance with Lady Forlorn, (...).

(...).

On the Trident, when their father fell wounded, it was Lyn who snatched up Lady Forlorn and slew the man who'd cut him down. Whilst Lyonel was carrying the old man back to the maesters in the rear, Lyn led his charge against the Dornishmen threatening Robert's left, broke their lines to pieces, and slew Lewyn Martell.

AFFC - Alayne I

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The Darrys and Rygers and Mootons had sworn oaths to Riverrun as well, yet they had fought with Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident, (...).

AGOT - Catelyn V

 

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Tyrell had a sizeable host, but some of his strength was with Rhaegar, certainly.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Siege_of_Storms_End

 

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Jason Mallister, in indigo chased with silver, the wings of an eagle on his helm. He had cut down three of Rhaegar's bannermen on the Trident.

AGOT - Sansa II

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A Targaryen army led by Rhaegar Targaryen and Ser Barristan Selmy, with Dornish levies under command of Prince Lewyn Martell, met Robert’s rebel army on the Green Fork of the Trident. During the battle Barristan the Bold cut down many men, but was eventually himself grievously wounded, taking him from Rhaegar’s side. Lewyn Martell was later killed by Ser Lyn Corbray, leaving only Rhaegar left in command.

https://georgerrmartin.com/grrm_merch/king-roberts-warhammer/

The commanders fell. First fell Ser Jonothor Darry; then fell Ser Barristan Selmy (my interpretation is that the host commanded by Ser Barristan fell to the northern host commanded by Eddard Stark); and finally Prince Lewyn Martell and the Dornish host, threatening the demon's left side, fell to the host of the Vale in a brutal charge led by young Ser Lyn Corbray.

* Participation of several houses of the riverlands [Darry, Ryger & Mooton] and a Tyrell host in Prince Rhaegar's army at the Trident.

* My interpretation is that Jason Mallister was taking down Rhaegar's own standard-bearers.

And the duel took place.

...

 

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They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

AGOT - Eddard I

 

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"You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him.

AGOT - Eddard II

 

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I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet.

AGOT - Eddard X

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"You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him. "So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar's army fled back to King's Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us."

AGOT - Eddard II

 

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Ned Stark was racing south with Robert's van, but my father's forces reached the city first.

ASOS - Jaime V

 

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"On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, 'I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,' and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan's wounds."

AGOT - Eddard VIII

 

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And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin's gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar's children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him.

ADWD - The Kingbreaker

 

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Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

AGOT - Eddard II

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Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident.

AGOT - Eddard VII

 

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This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he'd known and loved. If he could prove that the Lannisters were behind the attack on Bran, prove that they had murdered Jon Arryn, this man would listen. Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly.

AGOT - Eddard VII

 

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Renly had been a boy of eight when Robert won the throne, but he had grown into a man so like his brother that Ned found it disconcerting. Whenever he saw him, it was as if the years had slipped away and Robert stood before him, fresh from his victory on the Trident.

AGOT - Eddard IV

 

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He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together …"

AGOT - Eddard XV

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In his youth Robert Baratheon was a paragon of a man, stronger and larger than most others on the battlefield. His chosen weapon was a war hammer of such immense size his friend Ned Stark could not wield it. The hammer was forged by Donal Noye while he was still the smith at Storm’s End, and Robert’s prowess with it was legendary. In tournaments he was never much for jousting, preferring a melee where he could bludgeon his opponents senseless.

(...).

Robert was never one to lead from the rear and his advance eventually brought him into combat with Prince Rhaegar. Robert decided the battle and ended the Targaryen rule in Westeros when his hammer crushed Rhaegar’s breastplate, spilling the rubies that adorned it into the water, giving the area now known as the Ruby Ford its name.

https://georgerrmartin.com/grrm_merch/king-roberts-warhammer/

The truth is that Robert commanded and fought in the Battle of the Trident from beginning to end. The duel was brief. Rhaegar slightly wounded Robert, and Robert struck down Rhaegar in a masterful and brutal blow; the truth is that Robert was fresh from his victory on the Trident and looked like a antlered god. All Eddard Stark did was lead Robert's vanguard; and the truth is that Robert showed up the same day that Eddard Stark arrived at King's Landing.

...

 

What does Valyrian steel grant to the bearer?

Valyrian steel doesn't grant greater skill in combat; valyrian steel offers greater destructive capability against enemy weaponry. It is also lighter than steel, which, in a certain way, improves the bearer's athleticism. All this can be seen in the books themselves and in other materials written by the author.

...

 

Having made all this clear, I can now answer your question.

If Rhaegar had been armed with Valyrian steel, could he have defeated Robert at the Trident?

I'm of the opinion that in one night anything can happen... But I would not favour Rhaegar over Robert. What I can assure you is that Rhaegar would not be favoured over Robert. No competent jury would favour Rhaegar over Robert, whether or not he is armed with Valyrian steel.

I'm sorry if I repeat myself or if I'm too direct. Sincerely, the author already gives us the answer on his page about King Robert's warhammer:

“Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly,  Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”

 

This is the excerpt from the books with which the author decided to begin. The author could have chosen any other fragment from the books, and he chose this one. He then proceeds to tell us that Robert is a model of war, a legendary warrior, etc.

Where Rhaegar is a talented warrior, Robert is a legendary warrior; where Rhaegar is an elite jouster, Robert is a great rider (I said rider, not jouster). This is how the author has configured his characters.

At the Trident, Robert achieved one of the greatest feats in the books: he commanded, opened a bloody path and doomed Prince Rhaegar. This feat is surpassed only by Barristan at the Stepstones and Daemon at the Redgrass Field.

The author didn't give him in vain a name of Biblical proportions.

[Frey family reunion]

It should also be noted that at the time of the Trident, Robert was battle tested and Rhaegar wasn't.

Robert had fought in the battles of Gulltown, Summerrhall, and Ashford, and the Bells.  As far as I know, the Trident was Rhaegar's first true taste of warfare.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 7/25/2023 at 3:11 AM, astarkchoice said:

This

It was already an even fight and this just adds an advantage. The sword is lighter, harder,stronger and retains a  razor edge easier vs regular steel. 

Rhaegar is the faster man and this just means hel strike/parry  even faster and hit harder and the steel bite deeper into any openings (robert was wounded) .He wont tire as easily either.

Is he?

Could he have won? Yes. He could have won even without a valyrian steel sword. Is he likely to have won? No. I doubt it. Rhaegar was an elite warrior, but Robert was a legend that lived for fighting and had accrued a years worth of experience in wartime conditions. He's bigger, he's stronger and he has a good weapon for the fight that he'd be in.

  

On 7/27/2023 at 12:27 AM, James Arryn said:

Don’t buy the knives you see on tv. There are much, much better knives. 

Re; Valyrian steel, a couple points:

1) It was originally supposed to be ~ Damascus steel, but I think over time it’s been incrementally gaining ~ magical properties.

2) George gets asked who the best fighters ever were, and pretty much always says Jaime vs. Arthur Dayne. And when asked who would win, he always says that Dawn would make the difference. So he’s saying when two great fighters are evenly matched, Valyrian steel would be the decisive factor.

But does that mean with BF Rhaegar automatically wins? No, because Barristan’s comment about fights between fairly comparable fighters can turn on the slightest misfortune still applies. A stone under your foot turns, an adjacent fight knocks you off balance at a crucial second, etc. So it’s just an edge. You’d be smarter to bet on Rhaegar, but only by a little more than you’d be wrong, so either way don’t bet big. 

I never heard that one. From what I remember, it was between Barristan and Dayne and he said that he'd lean towards Dayne with Dawn. I also don't remember him answering definitevly who the GOAT was, but I could be misremembering.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[astarkchoice]

7 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Is he?

Could he have won? Yes. He could have won even without a valyrian steel sword. Is he likely to have won? No. I doubt it. Rhaegar was an elite warrior, but Robert was a legend that lived for fighting and had accrued a years worth of experience in wartime conditions. He's bigger, he's stronger and he has a good weapon for the fight that he'd be in.

Yes smaller and faster with a faster weapon.

Both men were well trained and thus the fight was fairly even...with an advantage of v.steel it would have been one sided though! The v.steel sword is suplosesdy lighter thus quicker , wont tire the arm as easily thus you can strike hard longer. The blade retains a razor enge better than regualr steel and is stronger too.

At the trident robert wsd badly wounded by raeghar with a regualr steel sword....v.steel.means every  wound  inflicted before would  potentialy been  much much deeper and probably fatal.

[astarkchoice]

On 8/8/2023 at 7:51 PM, Frey family reunion said:

It should also be noted that at the time of the Trident, Robert was battle tested and Rhaegar wasn't.

Robert had fought in the battles of Gulltown, Summerrhall, and Ashford, and the Bells.  As far as I know, the Trident was Rhaegar's first true taste

It was but it shouldnt have made that much of a differene.

[Alester Florent]

4 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Yes smaller and faster with a faster weapon.

Both men were well trained and thus the fight was fairly even...with an advantage of v.steel it would have been one sided though! The v.steel sword is suplosesdy lighter thus quicker , wont tire the arm as easily thus you can strike hard longer. The blade retains a razor enge better than regualr steel and is stronger too.

At the trident robert wsd badly wounded by raeghar with a regualr steel sword....v.steel.means every  wound  inflicted before would  potentialy been  much much deeper and probably fatal.

Robert wasn't that badly wounded by Rhaegar. He needed treatment, but he was able to resume the march to King's Landing and claim the Iron Throne within what must have been a day or two at most. It was probably of similar severity to the one Drogo took: requiring attention but not actually disabling, and dangerous only if it gets infected.

A Valyrian steel sword is clearly better than a normal one, but it doesn't make you invincible: Brienne still struggles against Rorge and Biter even with one. It would certainly improve Rhaegar's chances but it wouldn't be an autowin by any measure. 

[astarkchoice]

14 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Robert wasn't that badly wounded by Rhaegar. He needed treatment, but he was able to resume the march to King's Landing and claim the Iron Throne within what must have been a day or two at most. It was probably of similar severity0invincible: Brienne still struggles against Rorge and Biter even with one. It would certainly improve Rhaegar's chances but it wouldn't be an autowin by any measure. J

Brienne does.struggle buf zje wss suproq

As for robert if the woild.was deep.enough too require.more thsn cleaning and a stitch it wss prob deeper rhan drogos and with v.stell would probably have been fataly so

Edited August 23, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Lee-Sensei]

52 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Yes smaller and faster with a faster weapon.

Both men were well trained and thus the fight was fairly even...with an advantage of v.steel it would have been one sided though! The v.steel sword is suplosesdy lighter thus quicker , wont tire the arm as easily thus you can strike hard longer. The blade retains a razor enge better than regualr steel and is stronger too.

At the trident robert wsd badly wounded by raeghar with a regualr steel sword....v.steel.means every  wound  inflicted before would  potentialy been  much much deeper and probably fatal.

Possibly, but...

 

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"Robert loved to hunt boar. I have seen him take a thousand of them." He would stand his ground without flinching, his legs braced, the great spear in his hands, and as often as not he would curse the boar as it charged, and wait until the last possible second, until it was almost on him, before he killed it with a single sure and savage thrust."

Boars charge at a speed of about 25 mph and Robert waits until the last possible second before killing them. Ne says he's seen him doing it a thousand times. He's obviously incredibly fast.

I'm also not sure how even the fight was. Robert took a wound, but apparently it wasn't serious enough that he needed urgent medical care. He sent his own maester to tend to Barristan's wounds first. He then made it to Kings Landing a little after Ned. Barristan was still healing up even though his wounds had been taken care of first.

I won't say it was super easy, because I don't think it was. I wouldn't say it was super hard either though. It was probably somewhere in the middle, which makes sense. Rhaegar was never a dedicated warrior like Robert or Jaime. He preferred reading and music and Robert had loads of experience. I don't think having a VS sword is going to change the outcome in most cases.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[astarkchoice]

33 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Possibly, but...

 

Boars charge at a speed of about 25 mph and Robert waits until the last possible second before killing them. Ne says he's seen him doing it a thousand times. He's obviously incredibly fast.

I'm also not sure how even the fight was. Robert took a wound, but apparently it wasn't serious enough that he needed urgent medical care. He sent his own maester to tend to Barristan's wounds first. He then made it to Kings Landing a little after Ned. Barristan was still healing up even though his wounds had been taken care of first.

I won't say it was super easy, because I don't think it was. I wouldn't say it was super hard either though. It was probably somewhere in the middle, which makes sense. Rhaegar was never a dedicated warrior like Robert or Jaime. He preferred reading and music and Robert had loads of experience. I don't think having a VS sword is going to change the outcome in most cases.

Naah it was roughly even fight and id say  the v.steel sword tips it far too much in rhaegars favour. Robert was more dedicated but rhaegar seems to have been a prodigy (the age old goku vs vegata  dynamic of hard worker vs natural ) . He actualy did well at the lists unlike robert and he had daily sparring partners 2nd to none  in his KG which probably explains how he matched him for so long.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

10 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Naah it was roughly even fight and id say  the v.steel sword tips it far too much in rhaegars favour. Robert was more dedicated but rhaegar seems to have been a prodigy (the age old goku vs vegata  dynamic of hard worker vs natural ) . He actualy did well at the lists unlike robert and he had daily sparring partners 2nd to none  in his KG which probably explains how he matched him for so long.

 

Nah. It wasn't even. Robert was decisively Rhaegar's superior. And Robert comes from a family that consistently produces great warriors. A family that's of big men that are almost all physically fit. Even his bastards are strongly built. I don't think for a second that Rhaegar was just more talented than Robert. Robert was an indifferent jouster, but he dominated the melees. He was just better than Rhaegar. Bigger, stronger, faster, a better weapon, more skilled and with more experience. Rhaegar gave Robert a relatively minor wound and that's to his credit. But he was definitely not Robert's equal.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[astarkchoice]

55 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Nah. It wasn't even. Robert was decisively Rhaegar's superior. And Robert comes from a family that consistently produces great warriors. A family that's of big men that are almost all physically fit. Even his bastards are strongly built. I don't think for a second that Rhaegar was just more talented than Robert. Robert was an indifferent jouster, but he dominated the melees. He was just better than Rhaegar. Bigger, stronger, faster, a better weapon, more skilled and with more experience. Rhaegar gave Robert a relatively minor wound and that's to his credit. But he was definitely not Robert's equal.

They both come from a family that  produces great warriors remeber. Rhaegar is said to have been lukewarm to training yes until a book made him obsessed with becomming a great warrior ....which by all reports he did. He reportedly excelled at anything he put his mind to and ser barristan describes him as single minded. Lets not forget either he had  arguably the greatest pool of trainers/sparring partners of any warrior in westeros history!!  While robert may have been stronger id say rhaegar was probably quicker and at least as skilled.

They fought apparently on horseback for some time thus it was evenly matched  (rhaegar was a skiller jouster unlike robert) The wound he recieved delayed him from kl so at a bare minimum the v.steel sword  clearly would have gone deeper into a life threatening one.

Theres so many other unknown  factors that come into play with the v.steel sword (esp as its usefullness varies depending on grmms mood  )  we know the blade is lighter thus rhaeghar could have struck faster ,landed more often or not  tired as fast than  he did with a normal steel sword 

  We dont know  How many strikes  did he land off mail or near plate gaps  that otherwise would have gone right in with the stronger metal? How well would roberts hammer staff have held up vs multiple parries from the razor sharp stronger metal? Can normal steel in westeros even take a straight stab from v.steel? 

 

Likely order of the fight:

It seems likely given the duel lasted a long time and what we know of the 2 men rhaehar probably dominated the early parts of the fight  (where they would have charged each other with warlances  like at a tourney , where he is the elite jouster and robert mediocre at jousting)  raeghar probably landed but clearly failed to dehorse or kill  robert. He probably then went to finish the bigger stunned man but robert held on and probably used huge swings of the hammer to keep rhaegar off him possibly recieving his injury at this point (again had it been v.steel it would have  been all she wrote)  

Then as it decended into a horseback  melee (roberts forte) The larger stronger man got the edge (esp as they went into a river slowing the horses down) Now had they dehorsed at this point rhaegar probably would have vastly increased his chances BUT in the middle of a battle thatd mean any fool on a  horse could mow him down ! So he clearly felt up to the end he was in with a fighting chance vs bobby b.

 

 

Side note :rather than a rare  v.steel sword it seems more likely rhaegar would have improved his chances better with a 2nd lance 

Edited August 24, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Lee-Sensei]

15 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

They both come from a family that  produces great warriors remeber. Rhaegar is said to have been lukewarm to training yes until a book made him obsessed with becomming a great warrior ....which by all reports he did. He reportedly excelled at anything he put his mind to and ser barristan describes him as single minded. Lets not forget either he had  arguably the greatest pool of trainers/sparring partners of any warrior in westeros history!!  While robert may have been stronger id say rhaegar was probably quicker and at least as skilled.

They fought apparently on horseback for some time thus it was evenly matched  (rhaegar was a skiller jouster unlike robert) The wound he recieved delayed him from kl so at a bare minimum the v.steel sword  clearly would have gone deeper into a life threatening one.

Theres so many other unknown  factors that come into play with the v.steel sword (esp as its usefullness varies depending on grmms mood  )  we know the blade is lighter thus rhaeghar could have struck faster ,landed more often or not  tired as fast than  he did with a normal steel sword 

We dont know  How many strikes  did he land off mail or near plate gaps  that otherwise would have gone right in with the stronger metal? How well would roberts hammer staff have held up vs multiple parries from the razor sharp stronger metal? Can normal steel in westeros even take a straight stab from v.steel? 

Likely order of the fight:

It seems likely given the duel lasted a long time and what we know of the 2 men rhaehar probably dominated the early parts of the fight  (where they would have charged each other with warlances  like at a tourney , where he is the elite jouster and robert mediocre at jousting)  raeghar probably landed but clearly failed to dehorse or kill  robert. He probably then went to finish the bigger stunned man but robert held on and probably used huge swings of the hammer to keep rhaegar off him possibly recieving his injury at this point (again had it been v.steel it would have  been all she wrote)  

Then as it decended into a horseback  melee (roberts forte) The larger stronger man got the edge (esp as they went into a river slowing the horses down) Now had they dehorsed at this point rhaegar probably would have vastly increased his chances BUT in the middle of a battle thatd mean any fool on a  horse could mow him down ! So he clearly felt up to the end he was in with a fighting chance vs bobby b.

Side note :rather than a rare  v.steel sword it seems more likely rhaegar would have improved his chances better with a 2nd lance 

Yes, but not in the same way as the Baratheons that are all well over 6 foot and built like brick shithouses.

There's no evidence that Rhaegar was quicker or as skilled as Robert aside from possibly in jousts, which are 3 quarters horsemanship according to Jaime.

Whether the Valyrian steel sword would do better or not isn't really relevant. I agree that it would, although I wouldn't say it would be life threatening.

Normal swords aren't heavy at all. They would have weighed a few pounds.

Nah. There's no evidence that Rhaegar ever dominated any part of that fight. Rhaegar had many talents and he was a good warrior, but there's almost no evidence that he was equal to Robert. Robert was the greater warrior. That's why he won.

[Alester Florent]

38 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Then as it decended into a horseback  melee (roberts forte) The larger stronger man got the edge (esp as they went into a river slowing the horses down) Now had they dehorsed at this point rhaegar probably would have vastly increased his chances BUT in the middle of a battle thatd mean any fool on a  horse could mow him down ! So he clearly felt up to the end he was in with a fighting chance vs bobby b.

Why?

Robert is larger and stronger and has a weapon better suited to his opponent's armour. The one advantage Rhaegar has is speed: this we can safely assume because a hammer the size of Robert's is inherently slow relative to a one-handed sword. Rhaegar's best chance of victory is to stay mobile. If they get into a grapple or bind, he's in trouble. This is surely harder on foot in a river, because maintaining sure footing is harder, and the water will slow you down. It also makes Robert more dangerous in the grapple, because if he can force Rhaegar to the ground, he'll drown.

That Rhaegar is a good jouster and Robert isn't a particularly noteworthy one suggests that Rhaegar is a better horseman. Why would he gain an advantage from losing the horses?

I'll note that The Hedge Knight gives us a GRRM instance of a larger, stronger, and indeed wounded man coming to close quarters with a quicker and more skilled opponent. As for that matter does A Storm of Swords with Oberyn and Gregor. In both instances, the quicker man is fine so long as he can maintain distance between them (and in the former case, stay on horseback) but as soon as their opponent lays a hand on them, it's over. Robert/Rhaegar would surely play out similarly.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Yes, but not in the same way as the Baratheons that are all well over 6 foot and built like brick shithouses.

There's no evidence that Rhaegar was quicker or as skilled as Robert aside from possibly in jousts, which are 3 quarters horsemanship according to Jaime.

Whether the Valyrian steel sword would do better or not isn't really relevant. I agree that it would, although I wouldn't say it would be life threatening.

Normal swords aren't heavy at all. They would have weighed a few pounds.

Nah. There's no evidence that Rhaegar ever dominated any part of that fight. Rhaegar had many talents and he was a good warrior, but there's almost no evidence that he was equal to Robert. Robert was the greater warrior. That's why he won.

Targ males  are reportedltly tall with rhaegar adverage build so while not huge hes no dwarf either.

Theres.no evidence he wasnt as skilled or more skilled  , wed expect him to be a little faater given hes both the smaller fighter and a better horseman.

Skillwise robert had way more enthusiasm for training but rhaegar threw himself.into it properly at a young enough age to catch up esp someone supposedly very smart, single minded and naturaly gifted  PLUS his training partners were the finest ever ..iron sharpen iron! 

Of coursw irs gonna do better its made of a stronger + harder metal  and retains a razor edge. If rovert got injured with a regualr blade whatever stab or slash caused that would be much deeper with v.steel and itd probably open up.more possibilities to wound anyway

Agajn we are told tge fight lasted a while..it was competitive...theres no gettong roinf that esp wity the hammer and strength difference had there been any gap it would have been a one shot affair or close to it

It would make sense if the opening was basicaly a joust that the elite jouster would beat the so so one in that area, the fact robert stayed on his horse actualy makes little sense.

Edited August 24, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Lee-Sensei]

14 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Targ males  are reportedltly tall with rhaegar adverage build so while not huge hes no dwarf either.

Theres.no evidence he wasnt as skilled or more skilled  , wed expect him to be a little faater given hes both the smaller fighter and a better horseman.

Of coursw irs gonna do better its made of a stronger + harder metal  and retains a razor edge. If rovert got injured with a regualr blade whatever stab or slash caused that would be much deeper with v.steel and itd probably open up.more possibilities to wound anyway

Agajn we are told tge fight lasted a while..it was competitive...theres no gettong roinf that esp wity the hammer and strength difference had there been any gap it would have been a one shot affair or close to it

It would make sense if the opening was basicaly a joust that the elite jouster would beat the so so one in that area, the fact robert stayed on his horse actualy makes little sense.

Are Targaryens generally tall? Because every Baratheon is. Even Robert's bastard. And they're all built like brick shithouses. Robert, Stannis, Renly, Orys, Lyonel, Gendry, Edric, Borros, Rogar... even Mya is very tall and fit. Every last one of them.

You'd have to prove that he was as skilled or more skilled than Robert, because Robert has vastly superior feats. Robert also has the better speed feats. So no. I'm not going to say that Rhaegar's faster without evidence.

Indeed. And he probably would have done more damage. Most likely not enough to kill him though. Rhaegar wounded Robert, but as I said, Robert sent his maester to take care of Barristan's wounds before his and still made it to Kings Landing a little after Ned while Selmy was still healing up. That doesn't tell me that they were equals.

No. We're told that they circled each other and clashed a few times. Rheagar gave Robert a bit of a wound and Robert crushed Rhaegar. He was still standing around after the battle, because Barristan was brought before him and he passed judgement. Rhaegar was probably mid diffed and that's to his credit.

 

Quote

“Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly,” Ned replied. “On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert’s friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, ‘I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well’, and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan’s wounds.”

This is the one. If they'd said that Robert was grievously wounded and near death, I'd agree that Robert and Rhaegar fought as equals. That's not the case though. Robert's walking around after the battle with a wound, but Rhaegar was dead. Barristan was brought before Robert, Ned, Roose and the other Lords grievously wounded and near death. It makes sense that Robert would soundly defeat Rhaegar, because he lived for battle. If he'd challenged Rhaegar to a music competition, I'm sure Robert would have been trounced.

It makes plenty of sense. Robert was a legendary warrior. On of the GOATs. Rhaegar was a good warrior. Part of the elite. But he was never Robert's equal in this specific area.

 

  

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Why?

Robert is larger and stronger and has a weapon better suited to his opponent's armour. The one advantage Rhaegar has is speed: this we can safely assume because a hammer the size of Robert's is inherently slow relative to a one-handed sword. Rhaegar's best chance of victory is to stay mobile. If they get into a grapple or bind, he's in trouble. This is surely harder on foot in a river, because maintaining sure footing is harder, and the water will slow you down. It also makes Robert more dangerous in the grapple, because if he can force Rhaegar to the ground, he'll drown.

That Rhaegar is a good jouster and Robert isn't a particularly noteworthy one suggests that Rhaegar is a better horseman. Why would he gain an advantage from losing the horses?

I'll note that The Hedge Knight gives us a GRRM instance of a larger, stronger, and indeed wounded man coming to close quarters with a quicker and more skilled opponent. As for that matter does A Storm of Swords with Oberyn and Gregor. In both instances, the quicker man is fine so long as he can maintain distance between them (and in the former case, stay on horseback) but as soon as their opponent lays a hand on them, it's over. Robert/Rhaegar would surely play out similarly.

This is a fair point, but it should be noted that Robert like the Clegane brothers, is supposed to have strength bordering on superhuman. I did consider the difference between Robert moving quickly with a spear vs. his fantasy warhammer though. I think that you're making a fair point here.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Why?

Robert is larger and stronger and has a weapon better suited to his opponent's armour. The one advantage Rhaegar has is speed: this we can safely assume because a hammer the size of Robert's is inherently slow relative to a one-handed sword. Rhaegar's best chance of victory is to stay mobile. If they get into a grapple or bind, he's in trouble. This is surely harder on foot in a river, because maintaining sure footing is harder, and the water will slow you down. It also makes Robert more dangerous in the grapple, because if he can force Rhaegar to the ground, he'll drown.

That Rhaegar is a good jouster and Robert isn't a particularly noteworthy one suggests that Rhaegar is a better horseman. Why would he gain an advantage from losing the horses?

I'll note that The Hedge Knight gives us a GRRM instance of a larger, stronger, and indeed wounded man coming to close quarters with a quicker and more skilled opponent. As for that matter does A Storm of Swords with Oberyn and Gregor. In both instances, the quicker man is fine so long as he can maintain distance between them (and in the former case, stay on horseback) but as soon as their opponent lays a hand on them, it's over. Robert/Rhaegar would surely play out similarly.

Meant pre river and only if possible to dismout his opp too (otherwise robert would just run him down) on foot it becomes more of a skill contest as on horseback as the nags tire  you are basicaly clubbing  at one another and parrying  weakly..... the horses will eventualy tire and come to a standtill where its just men in 2 diferent weight categories thoeing shots at close range!!! On foot at least the prince could use skill a bit more and with v.steel we can assume passing any armour joint/gap or mail would be like hot butter

[astarkchoice]

28 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Are Targaryens generally tall? Because every Baratheon is. Even Robert's bastard. And they're all built like brick shithouses. Robert, Stannis, Renly, Orys, Lyonel, Gendry, Edric, Borros, Rogar... even Mya is very tall and fit. Every last one of them.

You'd have to prove that he was as skilled or more skilled than Robert, because Robert has vastly superior feats. Robert also has the better speed feats. So no. I'm not going to say that Rhaegar's faster without evidence.

Indeed. And he probably would have done more damage. Most likely not enough to kill him though. Rhaegar wounded Robert, but as I said, Robert sent his maester to take care of Barristan's wounds before his and still made it to Kings Landing a little after Ned while Selmy was still healing up. That doesn't tell me that they were equals.

No. We're told that they circled each other and clashed a few times. Rheagar gave Robert a bit of a wound and Robert crushed Rhaegar. He was still standing around after the battle, because Barristan was brought before him and he passed judgement. Rhaegar was probably mid diffed and that's to his credit.

 

This is the one. If they'd said that Robert was grievously wounded and near death, I'd agree that Robert and Rhaegar fought as equals. That's not the case though. Robert's walking around after the battle with a wound, but Rhaegar was dead. Barristan was brought before Robert, Ned, Roose and the other Lords grievously wounded and near death. It makes sense that Robert would soundly defeat Rhaegar, because he lived for battle. If he'd challenged Rhaegar to a music competition, I'm sure Robert would have been trounced.

It makes plenty of sense. Robert was a legendary warrior. On of the GOATs. Rhaegar was a good warrior. Part of the elite. But he was never Robert's equal in this specific area.

Superior feats? Speed feats....like the comic book vs stuff? Huh? We are literaly told rhaeghar was an elite warrior its just one man had to lose and it was him, that doesnt mean he wasnt in roberts league its just someone had.to lose!

We are told they had a long drawn out duel..that doesnt happen if the 2 arent evenly matched ,boxing , duels, mma.etc it simply doesnt go on for long if its a mismatch and ESP knightly  duels as theres a quick kill option always right  on the table for the better fighter and ESP if that fighter has giant fucking hammer!!!! 

Now robert didnt ride on to kl..he was injured badly enough to need attention, that isnt some light boo boo or bruise thats clearly an open would where the sword got through his plate or chainmail somehwere and left a wound large enough that it must be attended to .....with v.steel that  slash or stab would have been likely fatal.

Its not that robert isnt badly hurt just that he can take the pain until the much worse barristan is treated (cause in his prime that old monster probably took a few knights whupping on him to go down)  

Yes robert lived for battle but he wasnt commited to all aspects of it (jousting herhaegar was supposedly a natural at all things he commited to and from early enough age he decided that was being a warrior, again ser barristan described him as single minded on anything he wanted to achieve.

Side note skill wise wel add in his instructors and sparring partners were the finest in westeros from arthur dayne to young jamie,  you gotta  daily train with the best to be the best!!!

Edited August 24, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Lee-Sensei]

20 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Superior feats? Speed feats....like the comic book vs stuff? Huh? We are literaly told rhaeghar was an elite warrior its just one man had to lose and it was him, that doesnt mean he wasnt in roberts league its just someone had.to lose!

We are told they had a long drawn out duel..that doesnt happen if the 2 arent evenly matched ,boxing , duels, mma.etc it simply doesnt go on for long if its a mismatch and ESP knightly  duels as theres a quick kill option always right  on the table for the better fighter and ESP if that fighter has giant fucking hammer!!!! 

Now robert didnt ride on to kl..he was injured badly enough to need attention, that isnt some light boo boo or bruise thats clearly an open would where the sword got through his plate or chainmail somehwere and left a wound large enough that it must be attended to .....with v.steel that  slash or stab would have been likely fatal.

Its not that robert isnt badly hurt just that he can take the pain until the much worse barristan is treated (cause in his prime that old monster probably took a few knights whupping on him to go down)  

Yes robert lived for battle but he wasnt commited to all aspects of it (jousting herhaegar was supposedly a natural at all things he commited to and from early enough age he decided that was being a warrior, again ser barristan described him as single minded on anything he wanted to achieve.

Side note skill wise wel add in his instructors and sparring partners were the finest in westeros from arthur dayne to young jamie,  you gotta  daily train with the best to be the best!!!

Yes. And Robert was a legend. The inferior opponent lost. Rhaegar was good, but Robert was better as a warrior.

We're told that they circled around each other for 4 plus times. We're not told that they were equals. Compare it to Daemon Blackfyre and Gwayne Corbray.

 

Quote

" For near an hour they danced together on their horses, wheeling and circling and slashing as men died all around them. It's said that whenever Blackfyre and Lady Forlorn clashed, you could hear the sound for a league around. It was half a song and half a scream, they say. But when at last the Lady faltered, Blackfyre clove through Ser Gwayne's helm and left him blind and bleeding . "

They fought for almost an hour.

Nah. It's not likely to have been fatal. Again, he sent his own maester to take care of someone that was actually grievously wounded. Barristan Selmy. He then made it to the capital while Selmy was still healing from his serious wounds.

You're right about Robert having high pain tolerance, stamina and endurance though. When he was killed by that monstrously oversized boar, his entrails were falling out of his belly and it still took him 3 days to die. Which again, goes to Robert having better feats than Rhaegar.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Yes. And Robert was a legend. The inferior opponent lost. Rhaegar was good, but Robert was better as a warrior.

We're told that they circled around each other for 4 plus times. We're not told that they were equals. Compare it to Daemon Blackfyre and Gwayne Corbray.

 

They fought for almost an hour.

Nah. It's not likely to have been fatal. Again, he sent his own maester to take care of someone that was actually grievously wounded. Barristan Selmy. He then made it to the capital while Selmy was still healing from his serious wounds.

You're right about Robert having high pain tolerance, stamina and endurance though. When he was killed by that monstrously oversized boar, his entrails were falling out of his belly and it still took him 3 days to die. Which again, goes to Robert having better feats than Rhaegar.

4 times where does it say exactly 4 times? We are specificaly told the loyalsits dont break and run til the prince dies thus their duel lasts for a significant amount of time esp.given all that occurs elsewhere in the battle. That shows both men fought evenly for some time ..id say it could have gone either way it was just roberts day.

Yeah but again that means that sword got through his armour or mail at a weakpoint somewhere..if it had been v.steel the wound would have been deeper..a slash maybe a good bit deeper needing stitches and skme time to heal.. but  if it was a stab that barely got through  BUT this time with v.steel? No thats going to be a kill shot.

Add in we dont know how many other strikes roberts arnour took that v.steel would have possibly made a difference in! We dont know if the hammers staff was metal or wood (v.steel could  potentialy dehead it if it was wood ) ...theres a multitude of factors v steel alter! We know that last blow robert was clearly  just a tad faster...if the blade had been a bit lighter maybe rhaeghar deflects in time, maybe hed already have bled robert too much  frlm wounds he otherwise wouldnt have if it was ordinary steel to even make that blow etc

 

Yes hes stronger and demonstrated high pain tolerance...rhaegar though is seemingly the  smarter  and again his daily  sparring partners where another level to anything robert had. He learned and practiced vs  barristan, dayne,the sword of the morning, lewyn martell, jamie and the white bull!!! Robert had ned 

No overall given the length of time they clearly fought they were well matched and v.steel offers too many potential.advantages thus unbalances it.