If Rhaegar had Blackfyre or Dark Sister

[SaffronLady]

Getting a little help from the World of Ice and Fire here

Quote

Of the famous battle on the Trident, much has been written and said. But all know that the two armies clashed at the crossing that would ever after be called the Ruby Ford for the scattered rubies on Prince Rhaegar's armor. The opponents were well matched. Rhaegar's forces numbered some forty thousand, a tenth part of which were anointed knights, while the rebels had somewhat fewer men, but those they possessed were tested in battle, while much of Rhaegar's force was raw and new.

 

[Willam Stark]

15 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

-again that would assume he bizzarely  ignored his friends every day in the red keep for the daily  sparring practice all able bodied lords would do.

I only care about facts in this discussion, not your headcanon.

15 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

- right so he didnt just ride over and end it with a single.blow , they swung at each other for a significant period of time

I never said that, only that he killed Rhaegar with a single blow after being wounded by the latter.

15 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

-that doesnt mean roberts a great rider dude it jsut means he can ride a horse

Fighting on horseback against an elite jouster like Rhaegar, circling around him and finally kill him without being unhorsed is not a feat that can be accomplish by a novice or average rider. He must be at least as competent as him, otherwise he would have been unhorsed and easily killed.

15 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Overall grmm had tried to establish the fight as an epic encounter between 2 roughly evenly matched warriors and like any fight someone had to win.

If they were really roughly even, Robert would have been on the verge of death after killing him but that's not what happened.

It was mid-diff fight for the Stormlord, he won because he was better, not by luck.

[Willam Stark]

4 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

he was the best swordsman since Daemon Blackfyre death

He wasn't even a swordman, his primary weapon being a heavy warhammer, but was competent enough to whoop JonCon's ass (one of the best swordsmen of their generation) and almost slay him. The guy is a beast.

[Lee-Sensei]

6 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

He wasn't even a swordman, his primary weapon being a heavy warhammer, but was competent enough to whoop JonCon's ass (one of the best swordsmen of their generation) and almost slay him. The guy is a beast.

When it comes to fighting, he was unquestionably one of the GOATs. For some reason, people like to downplay him. Rhaegar wounding him at all is respectable, but I don't think George meant for us to believe that they were equals. Definitely not.

[SaffronLady]

36 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I don't think George meant for us to believe that they were equals. Definitely not.

Well, they were "well matched", but there are many ways to interpret such a vague term.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 minute ago, SaffronLady said:

Well, they were "well matched", but there are many ways to interpret such a vague term.

It looked to me like they were talking about the armies. The rebels were outnumbered, but battle hardened. The loyalists had numerical superiority, but they were fresh.

[Alester Florent]

43 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

When it comes to fighting, he was unquestionably one of the GOATs. For some reason, people like to downplay him. Rhaegar wounding him at all is respectable, but I don't think George meant for us to believe that they were equals. Definitely not.

I think it's that people just don't like Robert, and therefore downplay his abilities even in the area he was indisputably great at.

FWIW, and while I agree that Robert was a better warrior than Rhaegar, I'm not sure the disparity was as great as 9:1. I feel like Rhaegar had a chance in that fight, or at least that those present believed he did. 70-30 perhaps.

[Lee-Sensei]

9 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I think it's that people just don't like Robert, and therefore downplay his abilities even in the area he was indisputably great at.

FWIW, and while I agree that Robert was a better warrior than Rhaegar, I'm not sure the disparity was as great as 9:1. I feel like Rhaegar had a chance in that fight, or at least that those present believed he did. 70-30 perhaps.

Yeah. He's certainly controversial. I think a lot of people have softened on him, but he has many haters.

Maybe not. I do believe he had a chance. Which is why I said he's win 1 in 10 rounds, but it could have been better than that. Robert was clearly his superior though imo.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[KingAerys_II]

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

He wasn't even a swordman, his primary weapon being a heavy warhammer, but was competent enough to whoop JonCon's ass (one of the best swordsmen of their generation) and almost slay him. The guy is a beast.

I was talking about Targaryen swordsman

[KingAerys_II]

24 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I think it's that people just don't like Robert, and therefore downplay his abilities even in the area he was indisputably great at.

FWIW, and while I agree that Robert was a better warrior than Rhaegar, I'm not sure the disparity was as great as 9:1. I feel like Rhaegar had a chance in that fight, or at least that those present believed he did. 70-30 perhaps.

I don't think the gap was so big,that's why I consider Rhaegar as an extremely skilled swordsman. Baratheons are practically Dundarrons, Argillac was a great knight in his prime, he rejected a dornish invasion, killed a Gardener King in single combat, Borros killed 20 men before dying. 

Maybe Robert was even stronger than these warriors, he easily defeated the Ironborn in their home

Edited August 25, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[SaffronLady]

58 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It looked to me like they were talking about the armies. The rebels were outnumbered, but battle hardened. The loyalists had numerical superiority, but they were fresh.

Makes sense given the context

[Willam Stark]

22 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

I was talking about Targaryen swordsman

My bad. I think Daemon Blackfyre, Aemon the Dragonknight and Maegor Targaryen are above him.

[KingAerys_II]

9 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

My bad. I think Daemon Blackfyre, Aemon the Dragonknight and Maegor Targaryen are above him.

Visenya and the Conqueror too

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

-I only care about facts in this discussion, not your headcanon.

-i never said that, only that he killed Rhaegar with a single blow after being wounded by the latter.

-Fighting on horseback against an elite jouster like Rhaegar, circling around him and finally kill him without being unhorsed is not a feat that can be accomplish by a novice or average rider. He must be at least as competent as him, otherwise he would have been unhorsed and easily killed.

-If they were really roughly even, Robert would have been on the verge of death after killing him but that's not what happened.

-it was mid-diff fight for the Stormlord, he won because he was better, not by luck.

-right and using facts about what we know of this settings society , timeframes and locations ot would be very bizzare if a ablw bodied lord didnt train and spar daily, raehgar spent most of his time at the red keep where the KG train anf spar...so itd be sorta odd if  they DIDNT spar daily and even mlte bizzare given they are close friends thus would prob meet around same time, train and go get breakfast together etc

-ok

-no we are litersly told (and basic research on the sports confirms) jousting requires much better horemanship , fine tune control and co ordination wjth the animals heaving and falling etc...what the duel between them became was a 2 man melee which would require just decent hlrsemanship

-plenty of even fights (knights, mma, boxing,kockboxing)  can end with one finshed off esp when both men have a one shot fight ender. Edit someones already pointed out the offical wiki says it was a close fought fight

-he was the better man on the day, ab

nother day who knows whod have won ....but with v.steel then its odds favouring raeghar

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

He wasn't even a swordman, his primary weapon being a heavy warhammer, but was competent enough to whoop JonCon's ass (one of the best swordsmen of their generation) and almost slay him. The guy is a beast.

Jon connington is described as a 'Capable warrior and commander' nowhere at all does it say hes top tier

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

When it comes to fighting, he was unquestionably one of the GOATs. For some reason, people like to downplay him. Rhaegar wounding him at all is respectable, but I don't think George meant for us to believe that they were equals. Definitely not.

Id disagree i think they were supposed to be roughly even..thats the tradgedy of it all.

He could have won and raised jon snow as his own and prepped the kingdom for the others(after urusping his now batshit dad)  but on a coinflip robert won.

Im.a fan of robert (and all the baratheon boys) prime.robert is clearly one of the fonest warriors in all westeros history, also hes a charming inspiring forgiving loveavle lump of a beast!! That said he met someone who was also a great warrior that day and somepne had to lose!

 

You could even argue.other than strength his other advantage was mental...in his mind he faced the man who kidnapped and raped the love of his life! Whos dad tortured his best pals family (from roberts perspective all targs are one united front ..aerys attroctities are raeghars!) He had thst to fire him up and give him that extra fury! Raehgar by contrast probably could have done without the rebellion but needed a win to help usurp his dad...shit he was probably wondering all day wtf hed do if it was ned he had to confront!!!!

 

[Lee-Sensei]

10 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Id disagree i think they were supposed to be roughly even..thats the tradgedy of it all.

He could have won and raised jon snow as his own and prepped the kingdom for the others(after urusping his now batshit dad)  but on a coinflip robert won.

Im.a fan of robert (and all the baratheon boys) prime.robert is clearly one of the fonest warriors in all westeros history, also hes a charming inspiring forgiving loveavle lump of a beast!! That said he met someone who was also a great warrior that day and somepne had to lose!

You could even argue.other than strength his other advantage was mental...in his mind he faced the man who kidnapped and raped the love of his life! Whos dad tortured his best pals family (from roberts perspective all targs are one united front ..aerys attroctities are raeghars!) He had thst to fire him up and give him that extra fury! Raehgar by contrast probably could have done without the rebellion but needed a win to help usurp his dad...shit he was probably wondering all day wtf hed do if it was ned he had to confront!!!!

I don't think so, but you're free to believe otherwise. It's more like rolling a die and every outcome except for 1 leads to Robert's victory. But I don't think Rhaegar winning would be a just outcome (although asoiaf is often unjust). Robert was only fighting, because his head was called for due to the actions of Aerys and Rhaegar. I don't think Rhaegar's a monster or anything, but barring mind control, it seems hard to justify his actions leading up to and including on the Trident.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[SirBronzeFalcon]

41 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Jon connington is described as a 'Capable warrior and commander' nowhere at all does it say hes top tier

This is what the author wrote in the books:

Quote

Ser Kevan wished that he could share his certainty. He had known Jon Connington, slightly—a proud youth, the most headstrong of the gaggle of young lordlings who had gathered around Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, competing for his royal favor. Arrogant, but able and energetic. That, and his skill at arms, was why Mad King Aerys had named him Hand. Old Lord Merryweather's inaction had allowed the rebellion to take root and spread, and Aerys wanted someone young and vigorous to match Robert's own youth and vigor.

ADWD - Epilogue

 

Quote

The men of the Golden Company were outside their tents, dicing, drinking, and swatting away flies. Griff wondered how many of them knew who he was. Few enough. Twelve years is a long time. Even the men who'd ridden with him might not recognize the exile lord Jon Connington of the fiery red beard in the lined, clean-shaved face and dyed blue hair of the sellsword Griff. So far as most of them were concerned, Connington had drunk himself to death in Lys after being driven from the company in disgrace for stealing from the war chest. The shame of the lie still stuck in his craw, but Varys had insisted it was necessary. "We want no songs about the gallant exile," the eunuch had tittered, in that mincing voice of his. "Those who die heroic deaths are long remembered, thieves and drunks and cravens soon forgotten."

ADWD - The Lost Lord

I explained this in my first reply.

[Willam Stark]

34 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-right and using facts about what we know of this settings society , timeframes and locations ot would be very bizzare if a ablw bodied lord didnt train and spar daily, raehgar spent most of his time at the red keep where the KG train anf spar...so itd be sorta odd if  they DIDNT spar daily and even mlte bizzare given they are close friends thus would prob meet around same time, train and go get breakfast together etc

Headcanon.

35 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

no we are litersly told (and basic research on the sports confirms) jousting requires much better horemanship , fine tune control and co ordination wjth the animals heaving and falling etc...

I didn't say otherwise.

37 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

what the duel between them became was a 2 man melee which would require just decent hlrsemanship

The thing is that Rhaegar is an elite jouster, he would have unhorsed Robert easily if the latter was just a decent rider. Robert wouldn't have been able to clash and kill this kind of opponent if he wasn't as good as him in horsemanship.

50 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Jon connington is described as a 'Capable warrior and commander' nowhere at all does it say hes top tier

Nope, @SirBronzeFalcon has provided the correct quote.

44 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Id disagree i think they were supposed to be roughly even..thats the tradgedy of it all.

Well they weren't.

PS: Could you make an effort with your spelling? Sometimes it's hard to understand you.

[Lee-Sensei]

36 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Headcanon.

I didn't say otherwise.

The thing is that Rhaegar is an elite jouster, he would have unhorsed Robert easily if the latter was just a decent rider. Robert wouldn't have been able to clash and kill this kind of opponent if he wasn't as good as him in horsemanship.

Nope, @SirBronzeFalcon has provided the correct quote.

Well they weren't.

PS: Could you make an effort with your spelling? Sometimes it's hard to understand you.

In the Battle of the Bells, he also killed the darling of the Vale and Jon Arryn's heir, Denys Arryn. He defeated Hoster Tully in the same battle. Jon Connington is clearly meant to be an elite warrior.