Three Heads *in* the Dragon

[Moon Man]

This is a very rough theory about the nature of dragons and disembodied consciousness. I'm new to theorizing and I'm guessing this stuff must have been talked about before at some point and I'd love to see some links if anyone can find them.

Could the "dragon have three heads" *inside it*?

Disembodied, collective, and blended consciousness recurs in ASOIAF and it seems likely we've only seen some of what's to come. The Children live out their real lives in the weirwoods, a whole society inside the trees. The denizens of the House of the Undying seem to me to have uploaded their consciousnesses into something more like a now ancient computer. I think the warlocks barely understand the technology but tend to it and hope to upload themselves if they can, though they probably mostly die trying. What if dragons are also an old method for storing consciousness?

What if there are literally (at least) three "heads" in every dragon? It's still an open question as to how one hatches dragon eggs. It's a mystery to readers and Targaryens alike. I am very convinced by Preston Jacobs' (youtube) theories about x linked genetics, pregnancy pheromones, and telepathy being instrumental. I would like to propose an additional requirement.

Prior to Danny's success, Targaryens had for some time been trying to regain the lost art of dragon hatching. Jamie recalls that Aerys II thought if he died in a big enough fire he would be "reborn as a dragon". Aerion Brightlame got drunk and drank wildfire, apparently thinking "it would transform him into a dragon". Aegon "Egg" V burned a castle full of people in an attempt to hatch some eggs. All are thought to have been inspired by their "dragon dreams".

Three "Heads" to Hatch

Perhaps dragons and their eggs are vessels for collective consciousness designed to long outlive the human bodies of the people who inhabit them, much like the weirwoods and House of the Undying. Perhaps the "dragon has three heads" prophecy line means that there are three consciousnesses, three human "souls" in every dragon. Better yet, maybe its part of the recipe for hatching. Maybe you need either exactly three, or a minimum of three "heads" or minds or souls to get them to hatch.

If this is true, Arion Brightflame may have (assuming he did some other things correctly, like at least having an egg around), indeed been "transformed" into a dragon (after a long wait in an egg, then, perhaps), joining with other minds to be reborn as Drogon, Viserion, or Rhaegal. Egg himself could be in there to with who knows who else?

Maybe Aerys wasn't so wrong. Maybe if he had an egg around he could have transferred his mind or soul into it as his body died. This bares resemblance to a point made by Preston Jacobs (he's my fav, okay?) in his exhaustive exploration of Time Traveling Bran. According to this utterly convincing analysis, in order for Bran's consciousness to travel to the past and stay there his body must die in the present, in this case by impalement on spire of ice. It may be that to stay bound to the egg the body must die. Whether fire is a necessary cause of death is unclear. Probably not. It may be a kind of miscommunication or confusion with the need for fire to eventually hatch the eggs. 

Danny's Loved Ones Reborn

Recall that Danny's eggs hatched at a combination funeral/execution. Could Drogo, Reahgo, or even Mirri Maz Duur's minds be among those now existing, blended, as Danny's dragons? Was this the solution Maz Duur offered Danny regarding Drogo's life? When he is left in a vegetative state we're meant to think that her riddle was revealed to mean that she saved his body but not his brain. Maybe she actually saved his mind. He was going to die at that point, so she bound his soul to the big black egg. I know I just said that death of the body was perhaps needed to secure the transfer into the egg, but it may only be that this is one convenient method of auto-soul-transfer, DIY style. It's not like you'd need your body anymore. In fact, I suspect Maz Duur's method is exactly what "shadowbinding" is. The art of transferring souls around from vessel to vessel, or setting them lose, disembodied, even when the subject has no particular telepathic gift of their own. Though she never directly claimed to be a "shadowbinder", it may be that Maz Duur used her art to save Drogo's mind, fully intending that the eggs would one day hatch. Why else would Drogon be hanging out on the Great Grass Sea? It's where a horse lord wants to be.

Rheago could have been a similar story. I tend to think that Maz Duur was likely truly trying to save both Drogo and Rheago, but it's interesting to imagine that she may have killed both so their souls could be bound to the eggs and make them viable for hatching, as well and adding to their potential connection to Danny.

And Maz Duur herself was clearly bringing something to the hatching event. If you were a shadowbinder bent on bringing dragons back into the world and you happened to find yourself on a pyre with some dragon eggs, wouldn't you bind yourself to one and be reborn as Viserion? In fact, she may have had to. She may have known that each egg had only two souls waiting around in them. The (Ilirio/Varys(?)/Maz Duur(?)/Marwyn(?) plan may have been to bind Viserys' mind to an egg. Perhaps he still was, but I suspect this was prevented by encasing his skull in gold. On the other hand maybe being a dragon was her lifelong ambition and part of the grand plan. A mind on the inside, as it were.

Dragon Dreams

This would also provide a much needed source of so called "dragon dreams". They are likely some kind of telepathic communication, like so much else in the story, but from where? Who? If there are human souls in every dragon and most eggs, it could be those blended human minds with their human (Targaryen) memories trying to communicate the lost art of dragon binding and enticing their decedents to join them in dragon-life.

Dragonbinding

Perhaps a more specific form of shaddowbinding, the term referencing the vessel rather than the subject. If that horn Victarion has carted to Slaver's Bay truly has a dragon related purpose, perhaps it is a device for binding souls to eggs. If you don't have the Targaryen telepathic gifts and taste for flames, nor a shaddowbinder around and you want to get your soul into a sparkly rock, blow the horn at it. It does, apparently, burn you to death in the process. On the other hand, there are no eggs around for Victarion's victims to blow at. This being the case, I wonder if the horn is exactly what Victarion thinks it is, but my another method.

The Hellhorn

The dragonbinder horn could indeed be for steeling dragons. That is, steeling them from their current inhabitants. Perhaps it's a dragon countermeasure. One blows the horn to eject the current occupants out into oblivion and send your own soul in their place. Or perhaps it merely adds you to the gang. Moqorro has convinced Victarion to make *three* of his sailors blow it. The question may be whether those three will remain loyal to Victarion once inside.

Three Heads in Every Dragon Ever

So there it is. If I'm right, every dragon that ever lived had at least three human souls blended inside it as a precondition of it's hatching. Egg (Aegon V) has to be in there somewhere. Is he in D or R or V? (assuming Danny's eggs were in Westeros in the late Targaryen period). Maybe Maester Amon has been preserved in booze so somehow his mind can also be bound to an egg if any of Danny's should ever lay any (or if Farman's eggs ever turn up). The possibilities are vast and there would be a lot more to think about if any of this is true.

Thanks for reading. I'd really like to know what you all think and if this is an old, tired idea talked to death already.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Moon Man
punctuation

[Craving Peaches]

Could certainly be possible, but I also feel like it's one of those things that will never be outright confirmed either way. But I would think some proximity to dragon eggs is needed so I am not sure if Aerion would have been successful...

[Sandy Clegg]

There are a few different versions of this idea, you should spend some time doing a search on things like 'dragon bond' or 'second life'. I'm not sure how it would work with regard to number of souls, but I agree that a more mystical reading of '3 heads has the dragon' is the likely way this will resolve. George writes POV chapters, and getting a POV from a character 'inside' a dragon would just be a really intriguing thing to read. I've placed my bet on Victarion entering Viserion, and am sticking with it - Dragonbinder is going to work some dark voodoo.

I think there may be a clue in the World Book about this. The Summer Isles kind of represent Dany's 3 dragons, with Jhala - the biggest - being Drogon. And if you read the wiki entry you get this:

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The Red Flower Vale is a river valley in eastern Jhala and the Sweet Lotus Vale is a river valley in western Jhala. Ebonhead is a town on its southern coast at the mouth of the Sweet Lotus Vale. To its north are the Indigo Straits and the island of Omboru. To the south is Parrot Bay and the three islands called The Bones, as well as the islands Xon and Doquu. To the west is the island Moluu. The Golden Head is a peninsula in southeast Jhala. To the north of Golden Head is a group of small islands called Lizard Head.

An island (one of three) with a dragon-ish shape, with three 'heads'. Lizard head = the dragon brain. Ebon head = the physical 'head' attached to its body. Golden head = the absorbed soul. That's a rough reading off what they could represent - but George has given us zero info into how the mechanics of this works, so we can only speculate really. But it feels right that we will 'enter the dragons' at some point.

[Moon Man]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Could certainly be possible, but I also feel like it's one of those things that will never be outright confirmed either way. But I would think some proximity to dragon eggs is needed so I am not sure if Aerion would have been successful...

Yeah I agree. I mention him only because I think he's an example of someone being driven to attempt to bring back dragons by the eggs themselves and getting it wrong (probably). but who knows.

[Moon Man]

47 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

There are a few different versions of this idea, you should spend some time doing a search on things like 'dragon bond' or 'second life'. I'm not sure how it would work with regard to number of souls, but I agree that a more mystical reading of '3 heads has the dragon' is the likely way this will resolve. George writes POV chapters, and getting a POV from a character 'inside' a dragon would just be a really intriguing thing to read. I've placed my bet on Victarion entering Viserion, and am sticking with it - Dragonbinder is going to work some dark voodoo.

I think there may be a clue in the World Book about this. The Summer Isles kind of represent Dany's 3 dragons, with Jhala - the biggest - being Drogon. And if you read the wiki entry you get this:

An island (one of three) with a dragon-ish shape, with three 'heads'. Lizard head = the dragon brain. Ebon head = the physical 'head' attached to its body. Golden head = the absorbed soul. That's a rough reading off what they could represent - but George has given us zero info into how the mechanics of this works, so we can only speculate really. But it feels right that we will 'enter the dragons' at some point.

thanks i'll look into that stuff

[Evolett]

On 7/25/2023 at 11:35 PM, Moon Man said:

What if there are literally (at least) three "heads" in every dragon?

Most in the fandom agree that Khal Drogo's death paid for Drogon's life and / or that his soul found it's way into the dragon, whether by shadowbinding or some other means. We need to look to Drogo for a possible answer to this question and indeed, the idea that a dragon may contain three minds or souls is hinted at in the text and here I mean the Khal's bloodriders:

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Every khal had his bloodriders. At first, Dany had thought of them as a kind of Dothraki Kingsguard, sworn to protect their lord, but it went further than that. Jhiqui had taught her that a bloodrider was more than a guard; they were the khal’s brothers, his shadows, his fiercest friends. “Blood of my blood,” Drogo called them, and so it was; they shared a single life. The ancient traditions of the horselords demanded that when the khal died, his bloodriders died with him, to ride at his side in the night lands. If the khal died at the hands of some enemy, they lived only long enough to avenge him, and then followed him joyfully into the grave.

The term "bloodrider" is very suggestive of something way more than an external attachment. The three bloodriders share a single life with the Khal, they are blood of his blood, forming one unit. It's almost as though they literally share his blood and body, like a soul or foreign conciousness would. They die with him when the time comes and continue to ride with him in the night lands, when their souls have been released from their bodies. This sharing of blood extends to the material world as well, adding to the imagery:

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In some khalasars, Jhiqui said, the bloodriders shared the khal’s wine, his tent, and even his wives, though never his horses. A man’s mount was his own.

Then, in a parallel to dragonriders who only ever ride the one dragon bonded to them, a Khal's mount, his horse, is his own and his alone. 

When Dany speaks of Drogo's bloodrider Cohollo we learn he had been bound to Drogo at birth,

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His life had been bound to Drogo’s the day her lord husband was born.

..  recalling dragon eggs placed in the cradle of new born Targaryen children for the purpose of bonding. I think the information we have on bloodriders is the closest parallel to the idea of three separate souls or minds inhabiting a single dragon. I'm not sure if this is a necessity or even why it must be so if it is. I can think of reasons, purely speculative. 

 

 

On 7/25/2023 at 11:35 PM, Moon Man said:

In fact, I suspect Maz Duur's method is exactly what "shadowbinding" is. The art of transferring souls around from vessel to vessel, or setting them lose, disembodied, even when the subject has no particular telepathic gift of their own. Though she never directly claimed to be a "shadowbinder", it may be that Maz Duur used her art to save Drogo's mind, fully intending that the eggs would one day hatch.

I doubt Mirri intended for the eggs to hatch but agree her ritual included shadowbinding. Mirri more or less admits using Rhaego to pay for Drogo's life - the unborn baby's life as the price for binding Drogo's soul to his body, to prevent his spirit from departing entirely, meaning his death. The presence of the shadow of a burning man and a shadow wolf dancing in the tent are likely clues to the shadowbinding itself: From Mel, we know burning releases the soul from the sacrificed and from the undead. Spiritual fire also casts a skinchanger out of the animal he's inhabiting. The wolf is strongly associated with skinchanging or the migration of souls, so my guess it that these shadow figures hint at a soul-transfer or soul-binding scenario.

But  I think Mirri lost control of the ritual when Jorah carried highly pregnant Dany into the tent. Dany began having dreams involving a black dragon very early in her marriage. She could feel warmth from the eggs though no one else could. It makes me wonder if unhatched dragons are already possessed of human souls, acutally I think they are. There may be a parallel  between the fossilized stone dragon eggs and weirwoods that never die but turn to stone. By the laws of nature, both weirwoods and dragon eggs should lose their viability and rot but they do not. The consiousnesses gathered in weirwoods such as the poisoned one at Raventree Hall may still be there, trapped in the tree that is slowly turning to stone. Indeed, we have this line from  Maester Luwin:

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Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, ....  

And even more poignant, from Leaf:

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“Where are the rest of you?” Bran asked Leaf, once. “Gone down into the earth,” she answered. “Into the stones, into the trees. 

So by Leaf's own wisdom, the consiousness of the CotF can also inhabit stone. 

Following on from that, it's possible Dany's dragon eggs were already inhabited by one or more ancient souls lying dormant for eons and that Dany's dragon dreams stem from the eggs themselves, or from Drogon's egg in particular.

Mirri specifically gave orders barring everyone from the tent and I believe Dany ending up there caused the ritual to go awry, with Drogo losing his soul to the black egg instead of having it secured to his own body. Mirri may or may not have bound his soul to the egg. Perhaps Drogo was "called." Perhaps the inhabitant in the egg was weak after long years of being locked in stone, the egg's hatching being dependent on a strong and vital spirit such as Drogo's. Perhaps the process of the "second life" within a dragon is the same as what we've been told about a second life in a wolf - that the soul of the human slowly merges with that of the animal until nothing truely human is left. Maybe that is why three souls are required - not all at once, but when necesarry, for future riders to be able to maintain control of the dragon. But that's just my take on it.

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Evolett

[chrisdaw]

No that's not how it works. The dragon can hold infinite souls and the souls will have varying dominance inside of it. The three heads of the dragon refers to a specific dragon, the one which will defeat the Others and save the world in the WFTD. The three heads are Rhaego, Drogo and Dany, when Dany dies her soul will join Rhaego and Drogo inside Drogon (though part of her soul will go into a sword) and Drogon will take on her characteristics and become larger and stronger and breath fire hot enough to win the battle, and that's why there's a prophecy about 3 heads because they're the important pieces in this specific instance which will save the world.

It's not particularly important but they will not be the only souls inside of Drogon, many many less dominant souls will join, the dominant souls within the dragon can resist or allow other souls in. It's an afterlife and Dany is the gate keeper, she determines who is and isn't allowed in, she basically becomes a god . There's numerous textual references to it and this is the most succinct.

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Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …"

"Do I have to be reborn in this same body?"

 

No, you get reborn as a dragon.

To be honest these are really just my theories (in my sigs) making there way onto other platforms, being bastardised and working their way back here.

[Moon Man]

6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The dragon can hold infinite souls and the souls will have varying dominance inside of it. 

It's not particularly important but they will not be the only souls inside of Drogon, many many less dominant souls will join, the dominant souls within the dragon can resist or allow other souls in. It's an afterlife and Dany is the gate keeper, she determines who is and isn't allowed in, she basically becomes a god . There's numerous textual references to it and this is the most succinct.

No, you get reborn as a dragon.

yeah this is cool. i totally think you may be onto something about there being infinite soul capacity in dragons and Dany ending up in one.

[Frey family reunion]

On 7/25/2023 at 4:35 PM, Moon Man said:

So there it is. If I'm right, every dragon that ever lived had at least three human souls blended inside it as a precondition of it's hatching.

If that’s the case, then there really isn’t anything significant to the prophecy, is there?  

While I agree with your general premise that the three heads of the dragon is fairly literal, three consciousnesses transferred into a dragon, I don’t agree that this has ever been done before.

I think we have to be reminded why Dany’s dragons are so special.  It’s not their size, or power, they were dwarfed by the three dragons Aegon the Conqueror brought to Westeros. 

I think instead, they are special by the circumstances of their birth.  As far as I know they are the only dragons to have ever hatched from fossilized eggs.  The general assumption before this, is once the dragon eggs turned to stone they weren’t viable.  It’s what the Sealord told Jahaerys to ease his concerns about the three dragon eggs that made their way to Braavos.  that they turned to stone, they couldn’t hatch.

But Dany’s eggs did hatch.  Probably part of that was due to their presence in the tent during Mirri’s blood magic ritual with Drogo.  She cast a spell to transfer the spirit/soul of a horse into Drogo.  My guess is that the eggs became imbued with that magic, which not only helped allow for their hatching, but perhaps will allow the dragons hatched from them to host a human consciousness/psyche/soul.

My guess is that’s what Aemon may have been referring to about the Sphinx being the riddle.  He was either referring to the Sphinx at the Citadel ( a mismatch of different creatures/bloodlines come together) or he’s referring to a Valyrian Sphinx, a dragon with a human head.  Or perhaps both.

In other words, the riddle is how to make a Valyrian Sphinx.  How to transfer a human consciousness to a dragon.  I think that may be the key to the prophecy.  There have been many dragon riders that have come and gone, and many dragons that have hatched.  But there have never been dragons that have hatched from stone, and perhaps there have never been dragons hosting human consciousnesses creating a second life truly worthy of a king.

[Moon Man]

19 hours ago, Evolett said:

So by Leaf's own wisdom, the consiousness of the CotF can also inhabit stone. 

 

Interesting stuff. Especially about consciousness inhabiting stone.

[Moon Man]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If that’s the case, then there really isn’t anything significant to the prophecy, is there?  

...

In other words, the riddle is how to make a Valyrian Sphinx.  How to transfer a human consciousness to a dragon.  I think that may be the key to the prophecy.  There have been many dragon riders that have come and gone, and many dragons that have hatched.  But there have never been dragons that have hatched from stone, and perhaps there have never been dragons hosting human consciousnesses creating a second life truly worthy of a king.

Yeah admittedly I basically think this is the case with most prophesy in the story. It's largely garbled misunderstandings.

Great point about the valerian sphinx. This to me feels like the sphinx is a symbolic/artistic representation of the nature of dragons as having human consciousnesses. The "three heads" line then could be about trying to explain that the sphinx image is not complete. You need three consciousness to blend into the one head of the sphinx for the egg to work. Something like that.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Moon Man
spelling

[Moon Man]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think we have to be reminded why Dany’s dragons are so special.  It’s not their size, or power, they were dwarfed by the three dragons Aegon the Conqueror brought to Westeros. 

I think instead, they are special by the circumstances of their birth.  As far as I know they are the only dragons to have ever hatched from fossilized eggs.  The general assumption before this, is once the dragon eggs turned to stone they weren’t viable.  It’s what the Sealord told Jahaerys to ease his concerns about the three dragon eggs that made their way to Braavos.  that they turned to stone, they couldn’t hatch.

Danny's dragons are certainly special as they are apparently the only living examples in existence at the time. Beyond that I would say we don't really know what was special about their hatching. I suspect they were never "fossilized" at all. Imagine for a moment that dragon's eggs were always basically as heavy and shinny as gemstone, even back in the Valyrian heyday. That's just how dragons eggs are. Maybe they literally are stone, or just feel and look like it. 

Most people in the world then and in Danny's time would never have held or even seen an egg. If you tell people dragons come from eggs, they're going to imagine a big chicken egg. A fragile shell and a  delicious jelly center. Then someone ignorant of dragon's finds an egg hundreds of years after the last dragon and picks it up and it's stone. They might come to the conclusion that it has died and fossilized.

Or, if you told people such an egg was dead and fossilized, people might believe you and only asses the theft value of your egg at that of an extremely rare massive gem, and not the key to having your own dragon. Fo reasons outside the scope of this post I think Illyrio knew very well the dragon eggs were viable. Fossilization is a good cover story in a world ignorant of the secrets of dragons.

[Sandy Clegg]

20 hours ago, Evolett said:

From Mel, we know burning releases the soul from the sacrificed and from the undead. Spiritual fire also casts a skinchanger out of the animal he's inhabiting. The wolf is strongly associated with skinchanging or the migration of souls, so my guess it that these shadow figures hint at a soul-transfer or soul-binding scenario.

I really wanted to respond to these ideas but they took me on a really long process that ended in a massive post, so I'll address them there as it also relates to the Quentyn thread. 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Moon Man said:

Danny's dragons are certainly special as they are apparently the only living examples in existence at the time. Beyond that I would say we don't really know what was special about their hatching. I suspect they were never "fossilized" at all. Imagine for a moment that dragon's eggs were always basically as heavy and shinny as gemstone, even back in the Valyrian heyday. That's just how dragons eggs are. Maybe they literally are stone, or just feel and look like it. 

Most people in the world then and in Danny's time would never have held or even seen an egg. If you tell people dragons come from eggs, they're going to imagine a big chicken egg. A fragile shell and a  delicious jelly center. Then someone ignorant of dragon's finds an egg hundreds of years after the last dragon and picks it up and it's stone. They might come to the conclusion that it has died and fossilized.

Or, if you told people such an egg was dead and fossilized, people might believe you and only asses the theft value of your egg at that of an extremely rare massive gem, and not the key to having your own dragon. Fo reasons outside the scope of this post I think Illyrio knew very well the dragon eggs were viable. Fossilization is a good cover story in a world ignorant of the secrets of dragons.

We know dragon eggs aren’t literally stone, because viable eggs and eggs that have turned to stone are discussed in multiple sources:

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In the wake of Duskendale, the king also began to display signs of an ever-increasing obsession with dragonfire, similar to that which had haunted several of his forebears. Lord Darklyn would never have dared defy him if he had been a dragonrider, Aerys reasoned. His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

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“—a fleet of ships.” Jaehaerys had received his sister in his solar, with only Grand Maester Benifer present to bear witness to what was said. “If those eggs should hatch, there will be another dragonlord in the world, one not of our own house.” “They may not hatch,” Benifer said. “Not away from Dragonstone. The heat…it is known, some dragon eggs simply turn to stone.” “Then some spicemonger in Pentos will find himself possessed of three very costly stones,” Jaehaerys said.

So dragon eggs are not stone but they can turn to stone if left away from the heat.

We have multiple sources that verify the three dragon eggs that Dany have are stone:

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She lifted it delicately, expecting that it would be made of some fine porcelain or delicate enamel, or even blown glass, but it was much heavier than that, as if it were all of solid stone.

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“Dragon’s eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai,” said Magister Illyrio. “The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty.”

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“For a moment Dany was so shocked she had no words. “My eggs … but they’re mine, Magister Illyrio gave them to me, a bride gift, why would Viserys want … they’re only stones …”
        “The same could be said of rubies and diamonds and fire opals, Princess … and dragon’s eggs are rarer by far. Those traders he’s been drinking with would sell their own manhoods for even one of those stones, and with all three Viserys could buy as many sellswords as he might need.”

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“Ser Jorah and Mirri Maz Duur entered a few moments later, and found Dany standing over the other dragon’s eggs, the two still in their chest. It seemed to her that they felt as hot as the one she had slept with, which was passing strange. “Ser Jorah, come here,” she said. She took his hand and placed it on the black egg with the scarlet swirls. “What do you feel?”
        “Shell, hard as rock.” The knight was wary. “Scales.”
        “Heat?”
        “No. Cold stone.”

I would caution disregarding the evidence we’re given simply to accommodate a theory, instead I would suggest crafting the theory around the evidence.

And I think the evidence is that Illyrio gave Dany three dragon eggs that have turned to stones, something that dragon eggs have been known to do especially after being removed from a heat source.

But I agree that despite this, Illyrio may have suspected that Dany could help facilitate their hatching.  I think this suspicion may have it’s source with this individual at Dany’s wedding shower:

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Yet among them moved bravos and sellswords from Pentos and Myr and Tyrosh, a red priest even fatter than Illyrio, hairy men from the Port of Ibben, and lords from the Summer Isles with skin as black as ebony.

Perhaps this Red Priest is Moqorro who we meet much later.  A red priest even fatter than Illyrio who seems to have visions centered around dragons.

It might also be the reason that Illyrio sends Jorah, to look after the eggs, and to perhaps ultimately get them to Asshai, after Dany has spent a good time in their presence.

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“Ser Jorah gave a bitter laugh. “Khaleesi or queen, that command is beyond your power. Save your tears, child. Weep for him tomorrow, or a year from now. We do not have time for grief. We must go, and quickly, before he dies.”
        Dany was lost. “Go? Where should we go?”
        “Asshai, I would say. It lies far to the south, at the end of the known world, yet men say it is a great port. We will find a ship to take us back to Pentos. It will be a hard journey, make no mistake. Do you trust your khas? Will they come with us?”

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“When he saw the scarlet footprints her boots had left on the ground, the color seemed to drain from his face. “What have you done, you little fool?” he asked hoarsely.
        “I had to save him.”
        “We could have fled,” he said. “I would have seen you safe to Asshai, Princess. There was no need …”

If you look at the map, it makes very little sense for Jorah to bring Dany back to Pentos by way of Asshai, unless that’s what he was tasked to do.  Get Dany’s eggs to Asshai.  Which just so happens to contain blood mages, and shadow binders, and all of the magic that was used to help Dany’s eggs come to life.  

And it’s in Asshai which gave birth to the legend of Azhor Ahai who drew dragons forth from stone.  My guess is that’s what makes Dany so special.  Not that she hatched dragon eggs but that she hatched dragon eggs which had turned to stone.

Which may be what Asshai has in abundance.

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In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts—all impossibly ancient—claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals.

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He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothraki under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

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“The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany’s wrist. “You are  the Mother of Dragons, are you not?”

“To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”
            Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. “Will the Asshai’i give me an army?” she demanded. “Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?”
            “Truth,” said the woman in the mask

“Xaro Xhoan Daxos had watched the whole exchange from his cushions. When Dany climbed back into the palanquin beside him, he said, “Your savages are wiser than they know. Such truths as the Asshai’i hoard are not like to make you smile.”

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Moon Man]

52 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

We know dragon eggs aren’t literally stone, because viable eggs and eggs that have turned to stone are discussed in multiple sources:

So dragon eggs are not stone but they can turn to stone if left away from the heat.

These points and quotes are well taken. That said, I think there is considerable room for misinformation and deception here. The whole wide world does not know the secrets of dragons and their eggs. What people think they know may be hearsay and assumption, like so much else in the story.

Also, if we're saying that eggs which have turned to stone can be brought back to life again, then what has really happened to the eggs? If they have this capability then that is part of the very nature of dragon eggs. Meaning whether there anyone knew it or not, all or many eggs which have "turned to stone" are still viable given the right conditions.

From here I'm led back to wondering if thinking they had turned to stone was just a common misunderstanding by people who don't know any better.

[Moon Man]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

So dragon eggs are not stone but they can turn to stone if left away from the heat.

I guess my questions is what do you think the dragon eggs turned to stone from? Like how were they different, in your interpretation, before 'turning to stone'?

Did they have fragile shells with reptilian scales and gooey centers and gave off heat? Did they look significantly different? Did they have a different weight? A different feel? Of were they they exactly the same as Danny's on the day she received them, only they gave off heat, a sign that they were alive?

The answers to these questions really impact what it means for them to then 'turn to stone' or at least be described by people who have actually seen a fresh dragon egg as having turned to stone.

[Evolett]

16 hours ago, Moon Man said:

These points and quotes are well taken. That said, I think there is considerable room for misinformation and deception here. The whole wide world does not know the secrets of dragons and their eggs. What people think they know may be hearsay and assumption, like so much else in the story.

Also, if we're saying that eggs which have turned to stone can be brought back to life again, then what has really happened to the eggs? If they have this capability then that is part of the very nature of dragon eggs. Meaning whether there anyone knew it or not, all or many eggs which have "turned to stone" are still viable given the right conditions.

From here I'm led back to wondering if thinking they had turned to stone was just a common misunderstanding by people who don't know any better.

@Frey family reunion has provided many sources regarding dragon eggs turning to stone. I don't think we have reason to doubt that. That heat is needed to keep them viable also makes sense. One could argue that fossilization normally takes thousands of years in the real world and as such, eggs laid on Dragonstone a couple of hundred years ago can't possibly fit this timeline. We however have stone eggs at Dragonstone witnessed by Targs themselves, eggs that are far from ancient. The why of it is as mysterious as weirwoods turning into stone instead of simply rotting away. We do not know. Both are magical in nature. 

There would hardly be a point to the prophecy recited so often by Melisandre of Azor Ahai returning to "wake dragons from stone" if there were nothing to it at all. That Dany's eggs are a special case is true:

22 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think we have to be reminded why Dany’s dragons are so special.  It’s not their size, or power, they were dwarfed by the three dragons Aegon the Conqueror brought to Westeros. 

I think instead, they are special by the circumstances of their birth.  As far as I know they are the only dragons to have ever hatched from fossilized eggs.  The general assumption before this, is once the dragon eggs turned to stone they weren’t viable.  It’s what the Sealord told Jahaerys to ease his concerns about the three dragon eggs that made their way to Braavos.  that they turned to stone, they couldn’t hatch.

 I think what makes the stone eggs special is their lineage. We can perhaps agree on the necessity of a spiritual kindred connection between the hatcher and the eggs. Azor Ahai lived thousands of years ago, his lineage scattered far and wide in his descendants over the millenia. For the stone eggs to become viable again and to actually hatch, Azor Ahai needed to be "reborn," that is, his bloodline revived in a descendant "born of salt and smoke" (the two relevant bloodlines). This special descendant (most think Dany, but I'd argue it was Rhaego) then "wakes" the spark of life in the stone eggs, making them ready for hatching through an appropriate magical ritual.  

[Moon Man]

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

@Frey family reunion has provided many sources regarding dragon eggs turning to stone. I don't think we have reason to doubt that.

In your opinion, what were the eggs like before turning to stone? Were they fragile like a chicken egg? Could you crack a fresh one open and fry it? Did they look different? Feel different? If a fresh egg and a 'stone' egg were sitting in front of you, can you describe a possible way to tell the difference? Is it just that they give off heat? Or something more?

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, Moon Man said:

In your opinion, what were the eggs like before turning to stone? Were they fragile like a chicken egg? Could you crack a fresh one open and fry it? Did they look different? Feel different? If a fresh egg and a 'stone' egg were sitting in front of you, can you describe a possible way to tell the difference? Is it just that they give off heat? Or something more?

I guess you're looking for proof that fresh viable dragon eggs differ markedly from eggs turned to stone. From what I recall, GRRM mainly describes the colouring and scaling. Before Dany is told that the eons have turned the eggs to stone, she expects the texture of  fine porcelain, delicate enamel, or even blown glass but she has had no prior experience with dragon eggs though she might have had some input from Viserys on the matter. As to cracking a fresh one and frying it, that would depend on if they are laid with a fully developed dragon inside or if the laid egg starts off with a yolk and requires incubation in the heat of Dragonstone to further develop prior to actual hatching. I would expect a stone egg to be heavier than a fresh one.

One assumption I can make is the expectation that fresh eggs might be warm to the touch. They are evidently laid and kept warm in the hatcheries situated inside the volcano at Dragonstone. We also read that dragons are "fire made flesh" and we have examples of dragons disliking rain and snow. This may be a further indication that warmth is essential to the survival of the delicate egg stage and if it is kept away from heat for too long, it may lose its viability - and as we are informed, eventually turn to stone in the absence of a suitable environment. There is an example of eggs being taken to Casterly Rock for a while and not hatching until returned to Dragonstone. 

You'll find a brief summary on dragon eggs here.
Feel free to check out "The World of Ice and Fire" and "Fire and Blood" for any additional info on look and feel. Most descriptions of dragon eggs can be found there. 

[Moon Man]

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

I guess you're looking for proof that fresh viable dragon eggs differ markedly from eggs turned to stone.

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

You'll find a brief summary on dragon eggs here.
Feel free to check out "The World of Ice and Fire" and "Fire and Blood" for any additional info on look and feel. Most descriptions of dragon eggs can be found there. 

I'm really not looking for proof of anything. This is more of a thought experiment. I'm trying to asses what you or anyone thinks it could mean when characters in the story tell us some eggs have 'turned to stone'? I'm literally asking what you think has caused them to say this? Is it how they look and feel? If so, what makes the characters who say this think they weren't always exactly as they are? Is it that they've seen healthy eggs and the ones before them are different somehow? How? Do you have any ideas on this?