Dorne is awful but the Fandom is totally biased

[KingAerys_II]

17 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Details on the dream are nonexistent until the release of TWoW and possibly thereafter.

Aegon's actions cannot be justified on the basis of any dream or prophecy, because there is no such dream or prophecy in the books. It remains no more valid than that time Arya was cupbearer for Tywin Lannister.

 

It is hinted by the fact that Rhaegar knew about "the song of ice and fire", Jaehaerys II forced his kids to marry each other for the prophecy thing, maybe he acknowledged something from Aerys I who spent his time reading about prophecies 

[Alester Florent]

46 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

It is hinted by the fact that Rhaegar knew about "the song of ice and fire", Jaehaerys II forced his kids to marry each other for the prophecy thing, maybe he acknowledged something from Aerys I who spent his time reading about prophecies 

What we know is:

Aegon V and Jaehaerys II were told that the Prince That Was Promised would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella by a woods witch, probably the Ghost of High Heart. This appears to have been a fresh prophecy (and surely must have been in any event, because unless we are discounting free will entirely, until Aerys and Rhaella existed they didn't have a "line" from which the Prince would come.)

Rhaegar later discovered a prophecy and appears to have taken some action to try to fulfil it. This could well have been the same prophecy.

Nothing to suggest it was a prophecy around in the time of Aegon the Conqueror.

We know that Daenerys Targaryen dreamed of the Doom and the Targs fled to Dragonstone as a result, but "getting the hell out of Valyria" is enough of a motivation for that.

I'm not wholly averse to the idea of Aegon's being (at least in part) motivated by prophecy* (I know some people hate the idea) but as yet there is nothing in the books to indicate that he was and given the forum rules regarding show spoilers and differentiating the two I don't think it is worth discussing here. By all means do so on the HotD board.

*I don't see why Aegon couldn't have been motivated by both prophecy and ambition (or at least believing his ambition to be justified by prophecy), and be a complex character who bears responsibility for his actions all the same. We already have a precedent for such a character in the main story: Stannis.

[Angel Eyes]

As far as the Dorne plots in the books go, some of it feels half-baked.

[KingAerys_II]

9 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

What we know is:

Aegon V and Jaehaerys II were told that the Prince That Was Promised would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella by a woods witch, probably the Ghost of High Heart. This appears to have been a fresh prophecy (and surely must have been in any event, because unless we are discounting free will entirely, until Aerys and Rhaella existed they didn't have a "line" from which the Prince would come.)

Rhaegar later discovered a prophecy and appears to have taken some action to try to fulfil it. This could well have been the same prophecy.

Nothing to suggest it was a prophecy around in the time of Aegon the Conqueror.

We know that Daenerys Targaryen dreamed of the Doom and the Targs fled to Dragonstone as a result, but "getting the hell out of Valyria" is enough of a motivation for that.

I'm not wholly averse to the idea of Aegon's being (at least in part) motivated by prophecy* (I know some people hate the idea) but as yet there is nothing in the books to indicate that he was and given the forum rules regarding show spoilers and differentiating the two I don't think it is worth discussing here. By all means do so on the HotD board.

*I don't see why Aegon couldn't have been motivated by both prophecy and ambition (or at least believing his ambition to be justified by prophecy), and be a complex character who bears responsibility for his actions all the same. We already have a precedent for such a character in the main story: Stannis.

we don't know if he was actually the dreamer or it was one of his sisters

Edited August 1, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

Gaemon was considered the greatest Lord of Dragonstone during the Century of Blood, it is likely he was Balerion dragon rider as Aegon was, Gaemon was married to Daenys, who was the dreamer, so the dreamer could be Rhaenys. George RR Martin stated that history repeats, Daenys dreamed of the Doom of Valyria, Rhaenys dreamed of the Doom of Men, there are no details about dragons and their dragon riders before the Conquest, but it's possibile Daenys was the first dragon rider of Meraxes 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

4 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Gaemon was considered the greatest Lord of Dragonstone during the Century of Blood, it is likely he was Balerion dragon rider as Aegon was, Gaemon was married to Daenys, who was the dreamer, so the dreamer could be Rhaenys. George RR Martin stated that history repeats, Daenys dreamed of the Doom of Valyria, Rhaenys dreamed of the Doom of Men, there are no details about dragons and their dragon riders before the Conquest, but it's possibile Daenys was the first dragon rider of Meraxes 

It’s possible but again zero evidence so at this point it’s conjecture and fanfiction

[Maegor_the_Cool]

18 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Aegon didn't stop because he had the force to do so, then there is the dream thing that made the Conquest a necessity, Nymeria did it for wealth and power

Lol what. Not she did it for her people. Aegon committed genocide in a hissy fit because the Dornish actually got a W against them. 

[SaffronLady]

Like, OP, if you want to defend the Targs against Dorne-stans, you should draw comparisons between the A1gon and Nymeria with the help of the wiki. Here, let me show you, briefly, how.

1. When A1gon launched his conquest, House Massey, nominally vassals of the Durrandons, joined the Targs, and later, Alarra Massey's daughter was married to A1gon's son, Aenys; similarly, while many in Dorne considered Nymeria and her host invaders, Mors Martell made common cause with them via a marriage pact;
2. Both A1gon and Nymeria had armies that were far more superior to Westerosi: for A1gon it was the dragons, and for Nymeria it was their artisans' and armorers' skills;
3. Both A1gon and Nymeria claimed dominion over a respective region, and being good politicians they knew how far their power could stretch - it's just that A1gon had much, much greater power and claimed all of Westeros, but who's to say Nymeria wouldn't if she had as much power?
4. A1gon reduced defeated kings to vassals, Nymeria reduced defeated kings to political prisoners sent to the Wall, imagine what cruelty it is to send Dornishmen to the Wall;
5. A1gon adopted the laws, religion and customs of Westeros; Nymeria instead imposed Rhoynish inheritance law on Dorne, just like the way conquerers reshape the culture of the conquered to their liking
6. Both A1gon and Nymeria's reigns were repeatedly troubled by assassinations and rebellions

[KingAerys_II]

13 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Like, OP, if you want to defend the Targs against Dorne-stans, you should draw comparisons between the A1gon and Nymeria with the help of the wiki. Here, let me show you, briefly, how.

1. When A1gon launched his conquest, House Massey, nominally vassals of the Durrandons, joined the Targs, and later, Alarra Massey's daughter was married to A1gon's son, Aenys; similarly, while many in Dorne considered Nymeria and her host invaders, Mors Martell made common cause with them via a marriage pact;
2. Both A1gon and Nymeria had armies that were far more superior to Westerosi: for A1gon it was the dragons, and for Nymeria it was their artisans' and armorers' skills;
3. Both A1gon and Nymeria claimed dominion over a respective region, and being good politicians they knew how far their power could stretch - it's just that A1gon had much, much greater power and claimed all of Westeros, but who's to say Nymeria wouldn't if she had as much power?
4. A1gon reduced defeated kings to vassals, Nymeria reduced defeated kings to political prisoners sent to the Wall, imagine what cruelty it is to send Dornishmen to the Wall;
5. A1gon adopted the laws, religion and customs of Westeros; Nymeria instead imposed Rhoynish inheritance law on Dorne, just like the way conquerers reshape the culture of the conquered to their liking
6. Both A1gon and Nymeria's reigns were repeatedly troubled by assassinations and rebellions

According to the Dorne ultras Nymeria was beloved so much the other lords sent assassins to kill her and made rebellions, Nymeria did everything for greed, Aegon united the Seven Kingdom to reject the army of deaths

Edited August 1, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[SaffronLady]

6 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Nymeria did everything for greed, Aegon united the Seven Kingdom to reject the army of deaths

Like, see, try less to project opinion by direct personal statements. Instead, try to organize the material in a way that gets your point across. To demonstrate, again.

1. Argilac the Storm King invited A1gon to join forces via a marriage pact, however A1gon insulted Argilac by proposing for his BFF Orys Baratheon - publicly rumored to be his bastard half-brother, mind you - to take the hand of Argilac's daughter; instead of insulting responses, Nymeria cemented her pact with Mors Martell by marrying him herself, paving the way for Nymeros-Martell success;
2. A1gon drew forces again and again from his vassals to fund his war of conquest, while rarely bestowing anything in return; Nymeria, on the other hand, had her Rhoynish followers spread their art in conquered areas, enriching Dornish metalworking and wealth in general;
3. A1gon liberally used his dragons to burn his enemies, armies, civilians and castles; Nymeria did not have access to such weapons of mass destruction;
4. A1gon's conquest began when the Targs were a relatively settled and well-off power; Nymeria's war started when her Rhoynish people just ended their lives running from the Valyrians.

[KingAerys_II]

8 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Like, see, try less to project opinion by direct personal statements. Instead, try to organize the material in a way that gets your point across. To demonstrate, again.

1. Argilac the Storm King invited A1gon to join forces via a marriage pact, however A1gon insulted Argilac by proposing for his BFF Orys Baratheon - publicly rumored to be his bastard half-brother, mind you - to take the hand of Argilac's daughter; instead of insulting responses, Nymeria cemented her pact with Mors Martell by marrying him herself, paving the way for Nymeros-Martell success;
2. A1gon drew forces again and again from his vassals to fund his war of conquest, while rarely bestowing anything in return; Nymeria, on the other hand, had her Rhoynish followers spread their art in conquered areas, enriching Dornish metalworking and wealth in general;
3. A1gon liberally used his dragons to burn his enemies, armies, civilians and castles; Nymeria did not have access to such weapons of mass destruction;
4. A1gon's conquest began when the Targs were a relatively settled and well-off power; Nymeria's war started when her Rhoynish people just ended their lives running from the Valyrians.

Aegon helped the Riverlands to get rid of Harren Hoare, the dornishmen used to raid the dornish marches before the Conquest, a United Kingdom would have prevented that, the extinction of Wyl and Uller would have been good for the Westerosi population, they are like the Boltons and Hoares, maybe worse. 

Nymeria was an imperialist, tyrants impose culture to the conquered population

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

22 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

There were no accounts of such brutality in Asoiaf history, maybe during the Rape of the three sisters, tell me why should I be sad if Euron Greyjoy sacks Sunspear in the next books? 

Okay, I have an answer to this. Everything you described is from the past as far as I'm aware. The current Dornish, i.e. not their forbears...I believe have not committed any heinous acts.

The reason why you should care is.....people should not be murdered because their ancestors did bad things. That would be crazed. By that logic, I guess any Western people of European decent in this forum better be okay with a group of African/Native American/Arab/Southeast Asian/South Asian, etc. people coming and murdering us/torturing us. After all, our extremely recent ancestors were forcing people into slavery, slaughtering innocent people throughout most of the world. The conquest was ...300 years ago right? 300 years ago was 1723.....Europeans were busy doing horrible, horrible things at that time. You're logic is the logic of...bigotry. How bigotry works (taking the actions of a few people and then blaming an entire culture for it). 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

21 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Nymeria was an imperialist, tyrants impose culture to the conquered population

In order to be an imperialist, you would have to have a home country (Nymeria no longer did) as a key part of imperialism is expanding your borders. Nymeria had no borders to expand. She was a refugee leading a group of refugees, who was actively asked to join a Lord in the area and married that Lord. Yes, Rhyonish...Rhyonar...help me out here, culture did spread from those refugees....but that can happen. Not only imperialism leads to the spread of culture. For example, in the US southwest, Mexican (and greater Latino) culture has a lot of influence on that area. Last time I checked, Mexico wasn't being imperialist and trying to conquer the US southwest, lol. 

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Nymeria did everything for greed, Aegon united the Seven Kingdom to reject the army of deaths

Nymeria...was a refugee. Is there like...some new source book I've never read. I have "The World of Ice and Fire" right here in front of me, and I have Fire & Blood in my Kindle. Is there...another source book I didn't read? The things you are claiming do not line up with what I've read at all. 

As to Aegon, what you are saying is 100% not in any source material. I have no clue what you are talking about, but see that people mentioned the shows (I haven't watched since Game of Thrones season 5) so I think...maybe what you are saying comes from the tv show. In the book source materials we have..there is absolutely nothing pointing to Aegon doing this for prophecy's sake.

I feel like I am saying this a lot, but I think you have badly misread the character motivations of both of these characters. Nymeria wanted to save her people and was desperately trying to find someone to settle down. Aegon wanted to conquer the 7 Kingdoms and rule over them as King; and was willing to do pretty much anything to win (some people might call it a war crime to you know, burn an entire household to death, literally cooking them in their towers, but..hey what do I know. Or set three dragons loose on a field of battle again burning people to death). In fact, since I am fairly certain dragons are a metaphor for nuclear bombs....a lot of people...thinking using nuclear bombs is..essentially wrong....for certain the imagery around dragon attacks is pretty brutal. 

[KingAerys_II]

27 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Okay, I have an answer to this. Everything you described is from the past as far as I'm aware. The current Dornish, i.e. not their forbears...I believe have not committed any heinous acts.

The reason why you should care is.....people should not be murdered because their ancestors did bad things. That would be crazed. By that logic, I guess any Western people of European decent in this forum better be okay with a group of African/Native American/Arab/Southeast Asian/South Asian, etc. people coming and murdering us/torturing us. After all, our extremely recent ancestors were forcing people into slavery, slaughtering innocent people throughout most of the world. The conquest was ...300 years ago right? 300 years ago was 1723.....Europeans were busy doing horrible, horrible things at that time. You're logic is the logic of...racism. How racism works. 

Arabs used to raid European coasts during the Barbary slave trade, the Ottomans enslaved millions of Eastern Europeans, please, don't use history of Europe to prove things about a fictional novel, especially when you prove to be ignorant

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

3 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Arabs used to raid European coasts during the Barbary slave trade, the Ottomans enslaved millions of Eastern Europeans, please, don't use history of Europe to prove things about a fictional novel, especially when you prove to be ignorant

This doesn't negate their point at all

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

7 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Arabs used to raid European coasts during the Barbary slave trade, the Ottomans enslaved millions of Eastern Europeans, please, don't use history of Europe to prove things about a fictional novel, especially when you prove to be ignorant

This response makes no sense. My point was...grouping people as a group and then saying they deserve bad things happening to them because of atrocities committed by their ancestors...is bigotry. Xenophobia. Racism. You haven't actually responded to the essence of my comment at all. 

[KingAerys_II]

11 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

This response makes no sense. My point was...grouping people as a group and then saying they deserve bad things happening to them because of atrocities committed by their ancestors...is bigotry. Xenophobia. Racism. You haven't actually responded to the essence of my comment at all. 

The huns,mongols massacred German tribes during the time of the Roman Empire, barbarians, that escaped in mass from the genocide of Asian nomads, that is racism too, the same for the Barbary slave trade, the slave trade led by the Ottomans who used to capture christian kids to make them Jannissaries, as I stated before, you lack historical knowledge to support this meaningless thesis. 

We are talking about Asoiaf, there are families as Wyl's, Ullers, Boltons that deserve to go extinct, Dorne already invaded the Reach and the Stormlands before, so the invasion excuse to justify atrocities has become a nuisance used by biased people, Nymeria did the same Aegon did during the Conquest, but she is not judged as a tyrant

[SaffronLady]

6 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Nymeria did the same Aegon did during the Conquest, but she is not judged as a tyrant

She doesn't have dragons to just burn up her enemies and the peasants they rule. 

Even if the deeds are the same, her limited power and status as first generation refugee is more sympathetic than Aegon.

Considering the other question, should the Martells even be held accountable for the Ullers shooting down Meraxes and Wyls ... being Wyls? Sure Deria must have given the order to fight on, but how exactly the Dornish fought on isn't something you could blame the Martells for. Even if you know, there's Wyl to consider.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The huns,mongols massacred German tribes during the time of the Roman Empire, barbarians, that escaped in mass from the genocide of Asian nomads, that is racism too, the same for the Barbary slave trade, the slave trade led by the Ottomans who used to capture christian kids to make them Jannissaries, as I stated before, you lack historical knowledge to support this meaningless thesis. 

We are talking about Asoiaf, there are families as Wyl's, Ullers, Boltons that deserve to go extinct, Dorne already invaded the Reach and the Stormlands before, so the invasion excuse to justify atrocities has become a nuisance used by biased people, Nymeria did the same Aegon did during the Conquest, but she is not judged as a tyrant

1. No, I don't. You are just saying things as if I denied they happened or lack knowledge out of nowhere. Those things have nothing to do with what I am saying. 

2. Also, most of what you say...is based on things from literally thousands of years ago, i.e. during the pre-Targaryen era of Westerosi history which we have very little information about...but the information we do have is that all of the 7 kingdoms were constantly warring with each other (including probably horrible acts). You said....that the reason you shouldn't care about the Dorne being invaded and massacred by Euron Greyjoy..is because things that happened 100-300 years ago. 100-300 years ago, the examples I gave happened in our real time. The examples you gave...did not. I am using YOUR logic, the logic that post conquest the Dornish are "so horrible", and I gave an example ...from a similar era of history (i.e. recent modern history). 

3. None of the above matters. Like at all, I was using a specific example.....to get at the fact that what you are saying is just...bigotry, fantasy bigotry I suppose, but still bigotry. I don't have to name every atrocity in history to make this point. In fact, if I did, that would be silly. Do you want me to write a 5 page essay every time I make a comment, or is it actually okay to use short examples to exemplify a point? 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

She doesn't have dragons to just burn up her enemies and the peasants they rule. 

Even if the deeds are the same, her limited power and status as first generation refugee is more sympathetic than Aegon.

Considering the other question, should the Martells even be held accountable for the Ullers shooting down Meraxes and Wyls ... being Wyls? Sure Deria must have given the order to fight on, but how exactly the Dornish fought on isn't something you could blame the Martells for. Even if you know, there's Wyl to consider.

Also, I did just check this, Nymeria came to Westeros 1,000 years ago. Most of the information in the books involves post Targaryen invasion. Of course no one talks about Nymeria in the same way as Aegon...because the information on her is limited. We have 2 whole source books the focus on the Targaryens. We have a long history of Westeros starting from Aegon's invasion written in multiple places. Within the main series, they talk about Aegon constantly. Yes, Nymeria is mentioned...but barely in comparison. 

Sorry, @SaffronLady, this isn't really aimed at you, lol, but I wanted to add onto to what you said.