Recommended: new 'Wall Origin' theory

[sweetsunray]

16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I'm not suggesting that they learned from the Andals long before the Andals came, but that what they learned from someone was later attributed to the Andals, like the Andal King in the Rat Cook story, the knights riding around long before Westeros had knights as we know them. Things like the round towers, the gargoyles in Winterfell, the tales of the Other's hating iron, the dome in the Nightfort, all point to a non-Firstmen influence long before the Andals came to Westeros.

The First Men were never one ethnic group, but rather a migration of several people around a same time. Hence you get a First King in the Barrows, and the High King of the Gardeners, and Kings of the Torrentine, the Daynes. They were a mix of tribes and ethnicities and then you have the proto-Valyrian Daynes. But the Pact and the Long Night united them more in a way.

Yes, it's no coincidence that George ties Brandon to WF, Wall, SE and High Tower. Though I don't believe Brandon ever built anything. He was involved with the wards of at least 3 of these places. The High Tower is imo a lie by the Hightowers. And I think Brandon was a descendant of Garth the Green and a Dayne mother, so that he was a wildfire greenseer: a greenseer with dragonblood, like Bloodraven is, and Jon is. Except the Dayne dragonblood comes from the GEotD. But as I said, I don't believe he built anything. His descendants did.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

37 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I'm open to evidence of Weirwoods along the entirety of the Wall, but it seems to me they are described on the Northern side.

Yes, the quote suggests the weirwoods (or branches) are on the Northern side. But then the weirwood (or branch) at the Nightfort is on the Southern side. If these weirwoods are actually branches from far bigger weirwoods beneath the Wall then the branches could well pop up either side of the Wall depending on which way the branches grow.

37 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I don't hate the idea that the Weirwoods begin underground, but I don't know that it helps us determine if the Black Gate predates the Wall.

Well, we're told that the Nightfort is the oldest castle at the Wall, which suggests it was the first castle at the Wall. So, would they build the massive Wall first then add a castle? Maybe. I think it more likely the Nightfort was built first, or at the very least at the same time the Wall's construction started.

Additionally, in those days the First Men built their castles around existing weirwoods. Most likely they did this to fortify, claim and use the magic of said weirwoods. Brandon did this with Winterfell and Storm's End, so with the evidence provided for the Black Gate as a tree, it makes sense Brandon did the exact same thing with the Nightfort and built the castle around the tree. That's what makes sense to me anyway. 

37 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I think that the idea that the Weirwoods don't need the sun to grow is ominous, given the Long Night.

Depends on ones take regarding the weirwoods I suppose. But I know what you mean. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Wizz-The-Smith

[sweetsunray]

26 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Why didn't all First Men use Iron and build round towers and walls?

Because they weren't one united culture or group to begin with. These were mostly petty kingdoms and you keep your military advantage to yourself. If you know the secret to make steel, but nobody else does, and this ensures they cannot win in battle from you, you're not going to teach them.

The Rhoynar only taught the Andals, because they weren't staying around in that area, and they had far more advanced cities.

Not all needed round towers, because not all built a keep on such a deep cavernous hollow hill, but beside it. Some built with wood, and kept building with wood. Other undergrounds lead to different results. It was always going to be an amalgam. What worked with one site, didn't work with another. And then there are the type of stone you use, how far the quarries are. How wealthy you are to feed quarrymen and their families, transport, etc.

26 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

As I pointed to above the quote from the world of ice and fire describes stone structures in Andalos captured by Theon Stark.

Which is still Andal propaganda. The Andals love to make the northmen look like monsters. There is no supporting evidence anywhere in Andalos on maps or the world book apart from this story making Theon Stark out to make a monster. And George gives us a clue how much we must take the Andal stories about Northernes with a huge grain of salt. One such is Arya's journey in the RL. She basically does a time travel there to the time after the Andal Invasion, during the Wars Across the Water, and after the Andals invaded the RL. Each visit is a different type of source: a maester, a child of the forest (Lady of the Leaves), a septon, and the ghost of High Heart. The septon shows a burned and pillaged sept and cries foul about these northern monsters who cut the breast of the Mother, but admits it's actually a wooden statue. Notice "wood" here.

If the Andals already were building in stone in Andalos, they wouldn't have needed so long for the Gates of the Moon (square towers) and certainly didn't need to send their own to gawk at Storm's End and other FM keeps to learn to build the Eyrie.

So, no, I'm quite certain I haven't reached the wrong conclusion about Andals and their building in wood in Andalos. The stone fortress claim in the story about Theon Stark actually betrays the story to be a lie. It's not that Andals couldn't learn, but they didn't want to in Andalos. In Westeros they had an advantage with democratices steel use, but soon ran into siege issues against the bigger prizes (such as Storm's End). And since FM were used to warfare against keeps, they quickly saw the necessity to adapt.

And some maesters fell so hard for this "the Andals cultured us" that they wrote a True History, which is nothing but a bunch of lies. Instead of the Andals invading 2000 years ago, they invaded 4000 years ago. And instead of the Long Night happening 6000 years ago, it becomes 8000 years ago. Why pushing back these dates? Because there was evidence for advanced architectural development and other technologies that predated the Andals by at least 2000 years. So, they deliberately recalibrated the invasion dates in order to claim "see this castle was built so and so after the Andals invaded". How do we know it's propaganda, because the same book claims the children of the forest were already gone from the Riverlands before the Andals cut High Heart down. "The Andals are the best of the cultures, and they wouldn't kill these cute children of the forest that children love to hear about. No, they were already long gone." Implying the FM killed them. But we visit HH and we know that grove has magical powers that are some type of ward. In contrast we get a very poetic song that describes things we have seen in the present, north of the Wall. So, the Andals did massacre the cotf in the Riverlands. And this propaganda claim makes clear you can throw out any claim made in a True History. But it's on this piece of rubbish that other maesters make claims about Storm's End.  

Edited August 23, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Craving Peaches]

Biologically speaking, Weirwood leaves being red would suggest they have no/low chlorophyll in them, so they would be incapable of carrying out photosynthesis. This should mean that the Weirwoods are entirely dependent on soil nutrients (coming from dead plants and animals) or whatever macabre 'plant food' Bran senses them being fed, which is rather disturbing when you think about it. But at the end of the day they would still be dependent on sunlight, because the things that sustain them are.

[GZ Bloodraven]

43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, it's no coincidence that George ties Brandon to WF, Wall, SE and High Tower. Though I don't believe Brandon ever built anything. He was involved with the wards of at least 3 of these places. The High Tower is imo a lie by the Hightowers. And I think Brandon was a descendant of Garth the Green and a Dayne mother, so that he was a wildfire greenseer: a greenseer with dragonblood, like Bloodraven is, and Jon is. Except the Dayne dragonblood comes from the GEotD. But as I said, I don't believe he built anything. His descendants did.

You don't think he designed any of the structures he's known for? Or you don't think he physically laid the building blocks?

[SaffronLady]

Since we're touching on the topic of stone architecture, I would like to bring to attention a special form of stone - fused stone, which LML believes is a direct clue of dragonlord involvement (as melting and fusing stone needed dragonfire).

[Seams]

The American poet, Robert Frost, wrote a poem called Mending Wall. He also wrote a poem called Fire and Ice that was a source of inspiration for GRRM. I would suggest that Frost's poem about the destruction and repair of a wall is probably relevant to this thread. 

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44266/mending-wall

The poem describes two land owners restoring a stone wall, each walking on his own side of the wall. The destruction of the wall could have come about in various ways: hunters disassembling the stones so dogs could get at hidden rabbits; "something" that sends a frozen groundswell under the wall; turning their backs on the wall can break a "spell" that holds the loaf and ball-shaped boulders in place. One land owner questions the need for a wall, saying that the neighbor's pines and his apple trees won't cross to the other side. He says:

Before I built a wall I’d ask to know

What I was walling in or walling out,

And to whom I was like to give offense.

He imagines telling the neighbor that elves cause the wall to fall down, but hopes the neighbor will say it so he doesn't have to. Instead, the neighbor carries stones like a savage and "moves in darkness" of woods and "shade of trees." Part of the darkness is that the neighbor sticks to an inherited wisdom that insists, "Good fences make good neighbors." 

Starting with the wordplay, I predict that the "frozen groundsWELL" will tie in to the well under the night fort. Whether the underground river freezes and expands or some other force comes up through the well, that may be part of the destruction of the above-ground structure.

I like to think another force of destruction comes from wordplay on the "elves" that the speaker theorizes may cause the boulders to fall. "Elves" and "leaves" seem like a wordplay pair, and would definitely involve the Children of the Forest, one of whom is named Leaf. Maybe the magic that topples the wall will be something that causes those internal weirwoods to sprout leaves after all these years. 

We know that GRRM likes irony, so I suspect there might also be some symbolic way by which apple and pine trees cross the wall. The poet says it won't happen so George will find a way to do it. Maybe we will see this in a postscript in ADoS, long after The Wall as we know it has toppled into piles of rock.  

Since the people south of The Wall seem to have built and maintained it (if we are to believe that Bran the Builder was in charge), it seems to me that GRRM has put them in the role of the savage neighbor with the pines and the mindless logic for maintaining the wall. The wildlings or the giants may represent the speaker, who doesn't see the point of having a wall at that location. 

But what is the role of the Others, if any, in relation to the poem?

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

You don't think he designed any of the structures he's known for? Or you don't think he physically laid the building blocks?

Didn't design them. Didn't lay any stone or ordered any stone structure to be built. Nada. Zilch. He built alliances and he was the founder of House Stark.

[Seams]

My guess is that the breaching or collapse of The Wall will also reflect some of the details we know about the breach of the wall at Pyke during Greyjoy's Rebellion. Thoros of Myr, with his shaven (egg) head and flaming sword, took the lead in crossing that wall, along with Ser Jorah. Old Nan's grandson (father of Hodor?) was killed at the same time, as was Theon's brother, Maron.

Quote

They watched the heroes of a hundred songs ride forth, each more fabulous than the last. The seven knights of the Kingsguard took the field, all but Jaime Lannister in scaled armor the color of milk, their cloaks as white as fresh-fallen snow. Ser Jaime wore the white cloak as well, but beneath it he was shining gold from head to foot, with a lion's-head helm and a golden sword. Ser Gregor Clegane, the Mountain That Rides, thundered past them like an avalanche. Sansa remembered Lord Yohn Royce, who had guested at Winterfell two years before. "His armor is bronze, thousands and thousands of years old, engraved with magic runes that ward him against harm," she whispered to Jeyne. Septa Mordane pointed out Lord Jason Mallister, in indigo chased with silver, the wings of an eagle on his helm. He had cut down three of Rhaegar's bannermen on the Trident. The girls giggled over the warrior priest Thoros of Myr, with his flapping red robes and shaven head, until the septa told them that he had once scaled the walls of Pyke with a flaming sword in hand.

AGoT, Sansa II

The imagery in that paragraph begins with a snowy "wall" of king's guard men. Then an avalanche. Sansa remembered Yohn Royce, who was warded against harm, and it is implied but the paragraph doesn't explicitly say he is present. Mallister's House color is indigo, the color that is absent from Renly's Rainbow Guard. Does the absence of indigo represent a breach in Renly's wall? Readers know that a Mallister commands at the Shadow Tower on the Wall, where the Bridge of Dream seems to contradict the purpose of the Wall. 

Nothing we know about Thoros helps us to make sense of his feat of bravery and strength here. 

We know that Melisandre feels stronger at The Wall. Could Thoros have drawn some new strength from proximity to the wall at Pyke? 

In keeping with our "trees in the wall" thesis, I have speculated that the name "Thoros" could be wordplay on "roots." 

I have also noticed that kings guard members seem to have special powers to cross walls and other barriers: Barristan Selmy rescuing Aerys at Duskendale is one example. Brienne, a Rainbow Guard member, travels with Jaime, a Kings Guard member, as well as a Frey, Lord of the Crossing household member. There's a bit of a cliff hanger involved, but Ser Loras manages to cross the wall at Dragonstone while suffering grave injuries. 

Examing that paragraph, above, for this post led me to notice that the kings guard armor is scaled but Thoros scales the wall - two different types of scales. Maybe this is a clue for us about why the kings guard seems to have extra wall-crossing ability: something about scales and scaling. I noted earlier that people could ascend to the Eyrie in a basket or by using handholds in the rock chimney. I wonder whether scales are like handholds. 

Ser Duncan the Tall is a famous commander of the kings guard, but we are getting to know him before he is appointed to that position. He crosses a wall in this excerpt:

Quote

Come the break of day, Ser Bennis set about teaching their recruits to form a shield wall. He lined the eight of them up shoulder to shoulder, with their shields touching and their spear points poking through like long sharp wooden teeth. Then Dunk and Egg mounted up and charged them.

Maester refused to go within ten feet of the spears and stopped abruptly, but Thunder had been trained for this. The big warhorse pounded straight ahead, gathering speed. Hens ran beneath his legs and flapped away screeching. Their panic must have been contagious. Once more Big Rob was the first to drop his spear and run, leaving a gap in the middle of the wall. Instead of closing up, Standfast's other warriors joined the flight. Thunder trod upon their discarded shields before Dunk could rein him up.

The Sworn Sword

The recruits are trained by Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield. My interpretation of his symbolic role is that he is the worn-out soil that used to be fertile but lacks the fertilizer and rain needed to stay healthy and productive. Later, Dunk will defeat Ser Lucas Longinch, a symbolic member of the Night's Watch: "Though he wore black silk and cloth-of-silver, Ser Lucas looked as cool as if he were walking on the Wall."

Rain returns when Dunk slays father-figure Lucas. Like Thunder the war horse, Dunk breaks the wall and brings on the rain ("before Dunk could rein him up"). 

Dunk's sigil includes a big tree and a comet, symbolic of a flaming sword. Ser Arlan and Ser Bennis tell him he is thick as a castle wall. So the point may be that kings guard members personify walls, but they are also able to cross other walls. 

In addition to Thoros and Ser Jorah, Jocelyn Bywater is recognized for his service at the seige of Pyke. He loses his hand there, but later become the commander of the city watch, another wall-watching position in Westeros. 

[Mourning Star]

4 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Yes, the quote suggests the weirwoods (or branches) are on the Northern side. But then the weirwood (or branch) at the Nightfort is on the Southern side.

I'm suggesting it is an exception rather than the rule and that this is of note.

4 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

If these weirwoods are actually branches from far bigger weirwoods beneath the Wall then the branches could well pop up either side of the Wall depending on which way the branches grow.

It's an interesting idea, but again, the Nightfort Weirwood seems like an exception, we don't have any other examples like it, but many examples of Weirwoods aboveground with visible faces.

4 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Well, we're told that the Nightfort is the oldest castle at the Wall, which suggests it was the first castle at the Wall. So, would they build the massive Wall first then add a castle? Maybe. I think it more likely the Nightfort was built first, or at the very least at the same time the Wall's construction started.

Hard to know if the Nightfort predates the Wall. I'm not sure we have good evidence either way, unless you believe the Night's King predated the Wall. But, this starts to be mostly speculation.

And, this doesn't address if the Black Gate predates the Wall, or was built at the same time, or after.

4 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Additionally, in those days the First Men built their castles around existing weirwoods. Most likely they did this to fortify, claim and use the magic of said weirwoods. Brandon did this with Winterfell and Storm's End, so with the evidence provided for the Black Gate as a tree, it makes sense Brandon did the exact same thing with the Nightfort and built the castle around the tree. That's what makes sense to me anyway. 

Unlike every other ancient castle, which appears to be built around a Weirwood in a godswood, the Nightfort's tree is hidden and, like the other castles on the Wall, it has no godswood.

The story of the Night's King has him sacrificing to the Others in secret. These two things don't seem coincidental to me.

4 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Depends on ones take regarding the weirwoods I suppose. But I know what you mean. 

Cheers

Edited August 24, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Mourning Star]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And some maesters fell so hard for this "the Andals cultured us" that they wrote a True History, which is nothing but a bunch of lies. Instead of the Andals invading 2000 years ago, they invaded 4000 years ago. And instead of the Long Night happening 6000 years ago, it becomes 8000 years ago. Why pushing back these dates? Because there was evidence for advanced architectural development and other technologies that predated the Andals by at least 2000 years. So, they deliberately recalibrated the invasion dates in order to claim "see this castle was built so and so after the Andals invaded". How do we know it's propaganda, because the same book claims the children of the forest were already gone from the Riverlands before the Andals cut High Heart down. "The Andals are the best of the cultures, and they wouldn't kill these cute children of the forest that children love to hear about. No, they were already long gone." Implying the FM killed them. But we visit HH and we know that grove has magical powers that are some type of ward. In contrast we get a very poetic song that describes things we have seen in the present, north of the Wall. So, the Andals did massacre the cotf in the Riverlands. And this propaganda claim makes clear you can throw out any claim made in a True History. But it's on this piece of rubbish that other maesters make claims about Storm's End.

I don't buy it, but it's a take.

[Sandy Clegg]

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

'm suggesting it is an exception rather than the rule and that this is of note.

What is the difference between an exception and a clue then? It seems like you won't be satisfied until we get a POV going beneath the Wall to take soil samples and root cuttings. 

Is it the possibility or the probability of a row of weirwood trees that you object to? Because any tree can grow in a row if cultivated as such, it's not like anyone is suggesting they grow out of Cersei's butt. 

Quote

Later they passed through a burned village, threading their way carefully between the shells of blackened hovels and past the bones of a dozen dead men hanging from a row of apple trees. When Hot Pie saw them he began to pray, a thin whispered plea for the Mother's mercy, repeated over and over. Arya looked up at the fleshless dead in their wet rotting clothes and said her own prayer. - ASOS, Arya I

Quote

Across the lake he raced, his paws kicking up sprays of snow behind him. The trees stood shoulder to shoulder, like men in a battle line, all cloaked in white. - ADWD, Bran I

Also, the Wall is not a straight line, it's pretty winding from The Shadow Tower to Westwatch-by-the-Bridge.

For the record, I'm. not convinced there are still that many weirwoods left any more within/below the Wall. It's possible there has been a decline and they've been withering away somewhat due to lack of food. We may be looking at mere remnants of a weirwood foundation - or not. 

But the theory for me mainly looks at the origins of the Wall, not its current state. So I think the sole clue at the Nightfort is clearly relevant - just as finding a faint feather print embedded in a dinosaur fossil is relevant. We can and do postulate based on limited yet significant evidence in real life, and that's all we're doing here.

[Mourning Star]

8 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

What is the difference between an exception and a clue then? It seems like you won't be satisfied until we get a POV going beneath the Wall to take soil samples and root cuttings. 

We see a lot of Weirwoods in a lot of castles and in the woods beyond the Wall.

The Black Gate of the Nightfort is different in multiple ways from every other example, this is what makes it an exception as opposed to a clue about all the Wierwoods.

At this point I would expect some evidence, from a PoV or even rumor or story, before I assumed that this one very different example from all the others isn't an exception but rather some sort of greater explanation.

I don't think this is a high bar for evidence, it's a story after all.

8 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Is it the possibility or the probability of a row of weirwood trees that you object to? Because any tree can grow in a row if cultivated as such, it's not like anyone is suggesting they grow out of Cersei's butt.

Possibility is fine, almost anything in a magical story is possible. But, I don't see anything which would lead me to believe that the Wall is formed by a line of trees. We see one tree beneath the Nightfort (not directly beneath the Wall) which leads to a secret passage circumventing the barrier which is the Wall.

8 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Also, the Wall is not a straight line, it's pretty winding from The Shadow Tower to Westwatch-by-the-Bridge.

Ok? I'm not sure what you were going for with those quotes. Men plant apple trees in rows? Pines grow close together? Macbeth reference?

It seems like a giant leap to associate either of those quotes with the Wall.

8 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

For the record, I'm. not convinced there are still that many weirwoods left any more within/below the Wall. It's possible there has been a decline and they've been withering away somewhat due to lack of food. We may be looking at mere remnants of a weirwood foundation - or not.

I just don't see any evidence to support this theory.

8 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

But the theory for me mainly looks at the origins of the Wall, not its current state. So I think the sole clue at the Nightfort is clearly relevant - just as finding a faint feather print embedded in a dinosaur fossil is relevant. We can and do postulate based on limited yet significant evidence in real life, and that's all we're doing here.

But we don't assume that feathers form the basis of dinosaur bones because we found one example of the two together.

Real world science has a much higher bar to be considered reasonable than what I'm proposing here.

Of the nineteen castles along the wall, we see one Wierwood, and that one secret, and none have godswoods that I know of, unlike almost all First Men castles in Westeros (The Fist of the First Men being another relevant exception here, it being beyond The Wall, and possibly predating it).

Every living Weirwood in the south seems to have had a castle wall built around it, none I know of use one as a gate, or way to bypass a wall.

I struggle to see any evidence which would point to the Weirwoods being the basis or foundation of the Wall.

That said theorize away, just stating my perspective, and I enjoy the discussion.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 8/23/2023 at 4:25 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

But I broadly do like the idea that the ice magic which helped build the Wall ... is also the source of its warding, and that this involves the imprisonment (or forced guest-itude) of an Other, or something Other-like, or an ancestor of the Starks. And that would somehow be connected to a weirwood or weirwoods within the heart of the Wall.

The puzzle pieces are what make sense to me, it's just how they get put together we need to figure out.

My main takeaway, apart from WallWoods, is the idea of the magic ward being a living  - or undead - prisoner(s), which I kind of love. It's just such a strong thematic fit for George's world. You don't just kill your enemies. You defeat them, then take their children hostage. As wards. As a means of premeditated defence. Of course we would see this motif played out in the Old Ways and with whatever ends up being analogous to the Others (who are still essentially nameless in the story).

Right, I wasn't sure about this angle, and I certainly never thought about it when I proposed the Wallwood theory a while back (I've appropriated your title for the theory, love it. ). But one of the passages of text I'd noticed as having parallels to the Nightfort scene is when Davos is led past the weirwood in the Wolf's Den. Here's the text.

Quote

Glover led him along a darkened hall and down a flight of worn steps. They crossed the castle's godswood, where the heart tree had grown so huge and tangled that it had choked out all the oaks and elms and birch and sent its thick, pale limbs crashing through the walls and windows that looked down on it. Its roots were as thick around as a man's waist, its trunk so wide that the face carved into it looked fat and angry. Beyond the weirwood, Glover opened a rusted iron gate and paused to light a torch. When it was blazing red and hot, he took Davos down more steps into a barrel-vaulted cellar where the weeping walls were crusted white with salt, and seawater sloshed beneath their feet with every step. They passed through several cellars, and rows of small, damp, foul-smelling cells very different from the room where Davos had been confined. Then there was a blank stone wall that turned when Glover pushed on it. Beyond was a long narrow tunnel and still more steps. These led up. (ADWD, Davos IV)

I'm sure you can spot the parallels, but let's go over them briefly. 

Our characters (Davos and Bran) are led down a flight of steps.

The weirwood had grown so much that the limbs/branches had gone crashing through the building above (walls and windows in this case, the domed kitchen at the Nightfort)

The weeping walls crusted with salt are reminiscent of a) the Wall weeping and b) the salty tear that drops onto Bran when passing through the Black Gate. Nitre link as well.

The blank stone wall that turned is a secret passage/door/Gate, just as the Black Gate is a secret passage through the Wall. Both then traversed a tunnel. And the fact they were led upward may point towards the fact that the Nightfort is built on a hollow hill and the land was not level from one side of the Wall to the other.

The weirwood at the Wolf's Den is underground, just as the weirwood at Nightfort is. 

-----------

Okay, so quite a few parallels,. The Davos scene certainly seems to echo the Nightfort. And this all takes place beneath the whitewashed walls of White Harbor. The white walls of White Harbor bring to mind the ice white Wall itself, so that works pretty nicely. But I'd like to speculate on your point about an Other, Other like, or Other linked ancestor of the Stark's being present at the Wall or somehow imbued within the weirwood magic present. 

We're in White Harbor. A synonym for harbor is to conceal or hide. So we may have a clue here to a White (Walker/Wight) being concealed or hidden. 

Generally, to harbor someone is to hide a criminal or wanted person for their protection. So there may be some more thought needed amongst the great minds in this thread when it comes to this idea, but I think this has potential. It may simply be that a White Walker is concealed within the Wall, but let's look at other angles. 

Are you familiar with the 'stolen Other baby' theory? Basic premise being that the Others would take the sacrificial babies on offer, while keeping a close eye on said babies potential abilities. Looking for greenseers, one with special blood. Someone to lead them? Someone to break the spells cast upon them? Whatever the case may be, a powerful and talented child. As @ravenous reader puts it, 'a ward of winter'. The tale of Monster (Gilly's babe) may be a cyclical parallel here. A child promised to the Others, but whisked away and taken from them. 

I won't give the 'stolen Other baby' theory credit here without doing some research into old discussions. But basically, a child given to the Others, with Bran like power that was stolen back from them could be the 'ward' that is imbued within the Wall. Fighting fire with fire, or in this case ice with ice. 

Speculative when it comes to the stolen Other baby, it could just be a White. But thought I'd throw the 'other' angle out there. I've just noticed this, and more thinking to be done. 

Anyway, I'm rambling now, I need to speak to Ravenous Reader, they'll help me see the wood the the trees. As I hope all you fine people will.

But yeah, White Harbor parallels tonthe Nightfort may lead to a White being harbored at the Wall (in a nutshell) 

I'm off to hide behind the sofa in case @Mourning Star reads this. 

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

54 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

That said theorize away, just stating my perspective, and I enjoy the discussion.

Thank the Seven for that. 

Joking aside, it's good to have some different perspectives and for theories to be challenged. Having said that, you haven't read my last post yet. I'm ready.  

[Sandy Clegg]

48 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

They crossed the castle's godswood, where the heart tree had grown so huge and tangled that it had choked out all the oaks and elms and birch and sent its thick, pale limbs crashing through

@Evolett Hey we found another strangling sphinx!

50 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

The weeping walls crusted with salt are reminiscent of a) the Wall weeping and b) the salty tear that drops onto Bran when passing through the Black Gate. Nitre link as well.

Definitely a parallel, yes. The secret door particularly. Glad you spotted the TNT ingredient - nitre - as well 

 

52 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

We're in White Harbor. A synonym for harbor is to conceal or hide. So we may have a clue here to a White (Walker/Wight) being concealed or hidden. 

Harbours can and do conceal, and so do trees. Chambers dictionary might have something interest for you here, which I'm sure you knew already in the back of your mind:

arbor¹ /ärˈbər/ 

noun

A tree, esp in scientific use

ORIGIN: L

 

GRRM even uses The Arbor as a place name in the Reach (Arbor Gold - that famous white wine which so often accompanies lies).

 

So a White Harbour / White Arbor motif would seem to also fit a combined tree/Wall symbol. Come to think of it, so does the name Highgarden ...

 

 

[Sandy Clegg]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Possibility is fine, almost anything in a magical story is possible. But, I don't see anything which would lead me to believe that the Wall is formed by a line of trees. We see one tree beneath the Nightfort (not directly beneath the Wall) which leads to a secret passage circumventing the barrier which is the Wall.

Well it's only been a few days since we had this theory (for me anyway) so I'm perfectly willing to believe a combination of trees and traditional methods. I don't think any theory so far has been able to precisely state how this would work. But doesn't the traditional story of how the Wall was built also strike as a little far-fetched? For me it's always been a mystery waiting to be solved, so this kind of fills that hole nicely. But yes, there are a lot of permutations possible and we really don't know the ins and outs of the mechanics. I'm looking at it in broad strokes so far and I like what I see thematically.

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Every living Weirwood in the south seems to have had a castle wall built around it, none I know of use one as a gate, or way to bypass a wall.

A gate with a weirwood face being still attached to a weirwood isn't a stretch, but that's just me. It's old. It got big. Trees do that. The black gate's trunk got big enough to walk through. 

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Every living Weirwood in the south seems to have had a castle wall built around it, none I know of use one as a gate, or way to bypass a wall.

Flawed logic really. Most towns are built around rivers, but to say that every river needs a town around it would be illogical too. Towns needs rivers not vice versa. A weirwood can grow where it will.

I'm sure you're not alone in being sceptical, and it's good someone is here to keep us nutbags in check   Just let us have some fun with this for now because its been 12 years since ADWD and having a blast with the theory so far 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

I'm sure you can spot the parallels, but let's go over them briefly. 

Our characters (Davos and Bran) are led down a flight of steps.

The weirwood had grown so much that the limbs/branches had gone crashing through the building above (walls and windows in this case, the domed kitchen at the Nightfort)

The weeping walls crusted with salt are reminiscent of a) the Wall weeping and b) the salty tear that drops onto Bran when passing through the Black Gate. Nitre link as well.

The blank stone wall that turned is a secret passage/door/Gate, just as the Black Gate is a secret passage through the Wall. Both then traversed a tunnel. And the fact they were led upward may point towards the fact that the Nightfort is built on a hollow hill and the land was not level from one side of the Wall to the other.

The weirwood at the Wolf's Den is underground, just as the weirwood at Nightfort is. 

I genuinely make these posts in the best of humor and for fun. I mean no insult and love the speculation, so no need to hide behind the sofa!

But...

Even normal trees will grow through buildings if left to themselves (as can be seen in the Nightfort actually) and don't help us determine if the tree came before the building or not.  I mention this because the Nightfort has only been abandoned for 200 years, and the trees growing through the buildings has likely been since then, including the Weirwood. The Wolf's Den, and it's Weirwood, for comparison, are seemingly thousands of years old.

The Weirwood in the Wolf's Den has it's face above ground, it's the roots that go below, which is like most Weirwoods, besides the Black Gate. 

I do like the salty "weeping" in both cases, and think this is a great parallel. As is the existence of a secret passage beneath it.

Your comment about nitre caught my eye as well, after a quick search it appears 6 times explicitly in the series, Ned in the Black Cells, beneath the Hill of Rhaenys near the Alchemists Guild, the cells of Riverrun x2, Harlaw Hall, and the Cellar of Illyrio's Mance in Pentos. Not sure what to make of this except that they are reasonable places to find Nitre, a salt usually created by rainwater dissolving urine/feces and seeping through rock, and famously used to make gunpowder and fertilizer.

Timeline wise, we can place the construction of the Wolf's Den after the Nightfort and Winterfell, since Jon Stark built it to defend from "raiders from the sea" (whoever they were, another technology the First Men were said not to have was Seafaring, despite the Starks once having had a fleet).

Perhaps of note, this also seems to be when the Starks were consolidating power in the North, as Jon Stark's son Rickard would marry the daughter of the Marsh king. I mention this because of your "winter ward" comments above. Many have speculated that the Starks Greenseer/Warg powers come from marrying the daughters of their defeated enemies, the Warg King and the Marsh King jump out in particular.

If, and I do think it's an if, Men won the Battle for the Dawn, and it was a war against the Others, might they have taken a hostage or ward themselves, and would intermarriage be possible? I'm obviously thinking of the Corpse Queen.

 

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Well it's only been a few days since we had this theory (for me anyway) so I'm perfectly willing to believe a combination of trees and traditional methods. I don't think any theory so far has been able to precisely state how this would work. But doesn't the traditional story of how the Wall was built also strike as a little far-fetched?

Oh absolutly, and I'm all for questioning all of it, and then questioning the questioning.

2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

For me it's always been a mystery waiting to be solved, so this kind of fills that hole nicely. But yes, there are a lot of permutations possible and we really don't know the ins and outs of the mechanics. I'm looking at it in broad strokes so far and I like what I see thematically.

I agree that the Wall itself, and it's construction, the reason it was built and who built it are all mysteries presented by the story.

I do think there is a connection to the Weirwoods, I'm just not sure I'm sold on a line of trees actually being part of the Wall.

2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

A gate with a weirwood face being still attached to a weirwood isn't a stretch, but that's just me. It's old. It got big. Trees do that. The black gate's trunk got big enough to walk through. 

One detail we haven't mentioned here is that the eyes of the Black Gate are described as "blind", a peculiarity I don't think we see with any other Weirwoods. Could Bran look out of the eyes of a blind tree? The face is old, and even if it's close to as old as the Wall and the Nightfort it's ancient.

2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Flawed logic really. Most towns are built around rivers, but to say that every river needs a town around it would be illogical too. Towns needs rivers not vice versa. A weirwood can grow where it will.

Towns (people) need fresh water.

Do people need Weirwoods? Seemingly not, there are towns and castles without them, and yet every Weirwood south of the Wall seems to have had a wall built around it.

Do Weirwoods grow where they will? I wonder about the reproduction of Weirwoods much like I wonder about the reproduction of Dragons in this story. Is there a connection between the return of Dragons and new Weirwoods seemingly sprouting?

My point was not one of necessity however, just that in the story Men seem to have built walls around every living Weirwood south of The Wall, with the exception of the Black Gate, at the Wall itself. This weirwood seems different to me, an exception.

2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I'm sure you're not alone in being sceptical, and it's good someone is here to keep us nutbags in check   Just let us have some fun with this for now because its been 12 years since ADWD and having a blast with the theory so far 

I hear this in my soul, don't let me stop you!

Edited August 24, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Kal-L]

21 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, it's no coincidence that George ties Brandon to WF, Wall, SE and High Tower. Though I don't believe Brandon ever built anything. He was involved with the wards of at least 3 of these places.

Exactly, very interesting. It's fascinating to think that King Argilac decided to met Orys and Rhaenys on the battlefield to avoid Harren the Black's fate, when it's very likely that SE was shielded with the same wards as "the Wall" and that Meraxes might have had the same reaction as Silverwing later had when Queen Alysanne tried to pass the Wall.

"Conveniently", Queen Argella's men sold her to the Targaryens before any attempt at taking Storm's End started... Anyway, I don't think I'm being bold when I speculate that at some point Daenerys will suffer the same reaction from her dragons as Queen Alysanne did, this time while trying to take one of the others building of Bran the Builder (maybe Winterfell ?)