Most stupid things Lannisters, other than Cersei and Joffrey, ever did ?

[Lee-Sensei]

35 minutes ago, sifth said:

Isn't there a line, about how Tyrion tried to cheer Jamie up, on their way to Winterfell, since he was unable to sleep with Cersei on that trip?

I definitely don't remember that. Do you have it?

Edited September 7, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

19 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Perhaps. I just don't see Jaime leaving Lady Stoneheart's presence alive, given his liking for realistic consequences.

Sure, but I don't understand why GRRM would "wrestle with Jaime and Brienne" if Jaime is just supposed to die in Lady Stoneheart's captivity.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I definitely don't remember that. Do you have it?

It’s from AFFC’s. I’ll have to reread it one day and find it.

[Dofs]

On 9/8/2023 at 12:57 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

I definitely don't remember that. Do you have it?

On 9/8/2023 at 3:01 AM, sifth said:

It’s from AFFC’s. I’ll have to reread it one day and find it.

The quote is from Jaime's first chapter in Storm:

All Jaime had wanted was an hour alone with Cersei. Their journey north had been one long torment; seeing her every day, unable to touch her, knowing that Robert stumbled drunkenly into her bed every night in that great creaking wheelhouse. Tyrion had done his best to keep him in a good humor, but it had not been enough.

But there is a better quote:

Jaime had not wanted to believe it. Kinslaying was worse than kingslaying, in the eyes of gods and men. He knew the boy was mine. 

That's a quote from Storm.

So Tyrion indeed found out about the bastards before the books started, and confronted Jaime about it, and both made their peace with it.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

19 hours ago, Dofs said:

The quote is from Jaime's first chapter in Storm:

All Jaime had wanted was an hour alone with Cersei. Their journey north had been one long torment; seeing her every day, unable to touch her, knowing that Robert stumbled drunkenly into her bed every night in that great creaking wheelhouse. Tyrion had done his best to keep him in a good humor, but it had not been enough.

But there is a better quote:

Jaime had not wanted to believe it. Kinslaying was worse than kingslaying, in the eyes of gods and men. He knew the boy was mine. 

That's a quote from Storm.

So Tyrion indeed found out about the bastards before the books started, and confronted Jaime about it, and both made their peace with it.

From the chapter where Jaime returns to King's Landing ?

[Darth Sidious]

The stupidest Lannister is Jaime. He joins the KG for the wrong reasons, murders his king, cuckolds the usurper, and then tries to murder Peeping Bran.

[Lee-Sensei]

23 hours ago, Dofs said:

The quote is from Jaime's first chapter in Storm:

All Jaime had wanted was an hour alone with Cersei. Their journey north had been one long torment; seeing her every day, unable to touch her, knowing that Robert stumbled drunkenly into her bed every night in that great creaking wheelhouse. Tyrion had done his best to keep him in a good humor, but it had not been enough.

But there is a better quote:

Jaime had not wanted to believe it. Kinslaying was worse than kingslaying, in the eyes of gods and men. He knew the boy was mine. 

That's a quote from Storm.

So Tyrion indeed found out about the bastards before the books started, and confronted Jaime about it, and both made their peace with it.

The first one could just be that he saw Jaiime was sad. The second one could be because everyone knows at this point. Catelyn confronted him, the war has begun and Jaime and Cersei knew that Stannis and Jon Arryn knew their secret. It's just logical that Stannis would have told people. Although I admit that the later one is better evidence than the first.

[Dofs]

23 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

From the chapter where Jaime returns to King's Landing ?

19 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

The first one could just be that he saw Jaiime was sad. The second one could be because everyone knows at this point. Catelyn confronted him, the war has begun and Jaime and Cersei knew that Stannis and Jon Arryn knew their secret. It's just logical that Stannis would have told people. Although I admit that the later one is better evidence than the first.

It's from the very first chapter when he comes back to KL, he thinks that during the conversation with Cersei in the Sept. And given that he went there the first thing, Cersei couldn't have told Jaime ahead that Tyrion knew. The only argument you can make is indeed that Jaime somewhere offscreen just assumed that Tyrion found out due to Stannis spreading the rumor and believed it, but he seems way too casual about Tyrion's knowledge, doesn't ponder at all what this knowledge might mean and overall acts like Tyrion's knowledge is nothing special altogether.

I think it's waaay more likely that Tyrion told Jaime that he knew at some point before the books started than Jaime finding out Tyrion knows and reacting on it at some point off screen in Storm/end of Clash with Martin showing no effects of it whatsoever.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Dofs

[Lee-Sensei]

57 minutes ago, Dofs said:

It's from the very first chapter when he comes back to KL, he thinks that during the conversation with Cersei in the Sept. And given that he went there the first thing, Cersei couldn't have told Jaime ahead that Tyrion knew. The only argument you can make is indeed that Jaime somewhere offscreen just assumed that Tyrion found out due to Stannis spreading the rumor and believed it, but he seems way too casual about Tyrion's knowledge, doesn't ponder at all what this knowledge might mean and overall acts like Tyrion's knowledge is nothing special altogether.

I think it's waaay more likely that Tyrion told Jaime that he knew at some point before the books started than Jaime finding out Tyrion knows and reacting on it at some point off screen in Storm/end of Clash with Martin showing no effects of it whatsoever.

Like I said, it's easy enough for him to presume that the secret is out. Catelyn knew and he knew that Stannis knew. Why would Stannis keep that secret to himself? Although I agree that it seems likely. One issue I have with it though, is that Tyrion mentions in ACOK that Cersei should have had at least one of Robert's kids to remove suspicion. If he knew that those were all Jaime's kids, why wouldn't he have brought it up before to make things safer for the Lannisters?

Edited September 16, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Dofs]

23 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Like I said, it's easy enough for him to presume that the secret is out. Catelyn knew and he knew that Stannis knew. Why would Stannis keep that secret to himself?

We know that Jaime thinks that the secret is out and that Starks and Stannis spread the tale about it. The problem is that Jaime doesn't even have any doubts whatsoever that Tyrion might not believe in incest and bastards ( Cersei didn't tell him that Tyrion knew at that point) and he thinks about Tyrion's knowledge in a very casual way that I don't believe he would have if the information about the knowledge was recent to him.

Also, we know that Tyrion knew about the twins at the beginning of Clash, why would he suddenly realize the truth about them in aGoT when the only time he saw Jaime, Cersei and their children was in Winterfell and for the remainder of the book he was busy travelling to the Wall, Vale, etc? He must have found out at some point before the books have started and as you said yourself earlier, it makes little sense that he wouldn't confront Jaime about it, which he must have, which is why Jaime is very casual about Tyrion knowing.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Dofs

[Lee-Sensei]

3 minutes ago, Dofs said:

We know that Jaime thinks that the secret is out and that Starks and Stannis spread the tale about it. The problem is that Jaime doesn't even have any doubts whatsoever that Tyrion might not believe in incest and bastards ( Cersei didn't tell him that Tyrion knew at that point) and he thinks about Tyrion's knowledge in a very casual way that I don't believe he would have if the information about the knowledge was recent to him.

Also, we know that Tyrion knew about the twins at the beginning of Clash, why would he suddenly realize the truth about them in aGoT when the only time he saw Jaime, Cersei and their children was in Winterfell and for the remainder of the book he was busy travelling to the Wall, Vale, etc? He must have found out at some point before the books have started and as you said yourself earlier, it makes little sense that he wouldn't confront Jaime about it, which he must have, which is why Jaime is very casual about Tyrion knowing.

Did you not read the whole quote?

[Dofs]

51 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Did you not read the whole quote?

What quote?

[Lee-Sensei]

11 minutes ago, Dofs said:

What quote?

The one where I said that I agree that it seems likely that Tyrion knew.

[Dofs]

4 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

The one where I said that I agree that it seems likely that Tyrion knew.

Ah, ok, didn't see the bit after the edit, sorry.

I think he could have very well mentioned that to Jaime, but it's not like pre-aSoS Jaime would have cared about such advice anyway.

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

Ah, ok, didn't see the bit after the edit, sorry.

I think he could have very well mentioned that to Jaime, but it's not like pre-aSoS Jaime would have cared about such advice anyway.

It's all good. The issue is that we're in Tyrion's head and if he'd tried to get Jaime and Cersei to do that much, it seems like something he'd have thought about at least briefly in that moment.

[sifth]

58 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It's all good. The issue is that we're in Tyrion's head and if he'd tried to get Jaime and Cersei to do that much, it seems like something he'd have thought about at least briefly in that moment.

I mean not necessarily. We're in Ned's head a lot in the first book and just look at all of the secrets he never thinks about, in his internal dialogue. Never once, does he think of Jon as his nephew, for example.

[Lee-Sensei]

14 hours ago, sifth said:

I mean not necessarily. We're in Ned's head a lot in the first book and just look at all of the secrets he never thinks about, in his internal dialogue. Never once, does he think of Jon as his nephew, for example.

That's because he's deliberately suppressing that information though. What reason would Tyrion have to not even think about the time that he suggested to Jaime that Cersei should have one or two kids with Robert?

[sifth]

21 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

That's because he's deliberately suppressing that information though. What reason would Tyrion have to not even think about the time that he suggested to Jaime that Cersei should have one or two kids with Robert?

I just assumed Tyrion didn't care much for it in the first book, so he had no reason to ever thinking about it; same with Ned, when it comes to Jon Snow. Keep in mind, that Tyrion's first chapter in the second book, when he confronts Cersei about it, is well before Stannis sends out his letters. So why would Tyrion suddenly come to the realization that Joff and the other kids are Jamie and Cersei's, just randomly on his ride to Kings Landing?

[Lee-Sensei]

33 minutes ago, sifth said:

I just assumed Tyrion didn't care much for it in the first book, so he had no reason to ever thinking about it; same with Ned, when it comes to Jon Snow. Keep in mind, that Tyrion's first chapter in the second book, when he confronts Cersei about it, is well before Stannis sends out his letters. So why would Tyrion suddenly come to the realization that Joff and the other kids are Jamie and Cersei's, just randomly on his ride to Kings Landing?

That's beside the point. I already acknowledged that you're probably right about him already knowing. My point was that when Tyrion thinks that Cersei should have had one of Robert's to give her a bit of cover, it's weird that he didn't think to himself about the time that he suggested it.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[sifth]

15 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

That's beside the point. I already acknowledged that it's likely that he knew. My point was that when Tyrion thinks that Cersei should have had one of Robert's to give her a bit of cover, it's weird that he didn't think to himself about the time that he suggested it.

Fair point. If truth be told, the first book has a lot of weird things that don't match up with the rest of the series; we can add Tyrion never thinking about Cersei and Jamie's relationship as another one of those.

Edited September 17, 2023 by sifth