Underrated Badasses

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Lord Kevan and Daven. 

Lord Kevan proved to be a great Hand without using Tywin brutality, that's why Varys killed him. 

I like Daven and Jaime considers him to have the aspect of a lion thanks to the beard and long hair, his dialogues are very entertaining 

Kevan was just as brutal as Tywin.

[KingAerys_II]

30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Kevan was just as brutal as Tywin.

Tywin forced Tyrion watching Tysha being raped, then he despised him because he was a dwarf, Kevan was part of Tywin army after all, he was the mind behind the murder of Elia and her children. 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

A badass character cursed by his physical description is Daemon Blackfyre. Everyone speaks of flat belly and how foolish Ser Oustace was because he followed a man for his abs, I mean... He defeated a member of the Kingsguard in single combat 

Edited October 29, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Alester Florent]

5 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

A badass character cursed by his physical description is Daemon Blackfyre. Everyone speaks of flat belly and how foolish Ser Oustace was because he followed a man for his abs, I mean... He defeated a member of the Kingsguard in single combat 

To be fair, not all members of the Kingsguard are created equal. Exhibit A: Boros Blount. Barristan and Jaime are on a completely different level to Robert's other KG and Boros is probably on another (lower) level again.

And circumstances matter, too. Pod killed Mandon Moore single-handed and sure, Pod is cool and brave and loyal... but it wasn't skill at arms that enabled him to pull that off and in a straight fight many lesser swordsmen than Mandon Moore would probably dismantle him.

Now Bobby's KG was probably of unusually low quality but there were presumably other duds throughout history too. 

Not to say that Daemon wasn't a generationally great swordsman, though. Unless everyone is lying for some reason, he clearly was: even his enemies seem to admit that.

[KingAerys_II]

Mando Moore was considered dangerous by Jaime, Pod pushed him amd Mandon drowned in the water. 

The Kingsguard was Ser Corbray wielding Lady Forlon. 

Daemon Blackfyre is extremely underrated by the Fandom for the flat belly description. 

Daemon defeated more than a skilled knight during the rebellion and died because of a weirwood arrow

[Otatop1000]

Not really a “badass” but I love Dolores Edd.  His quips are just the best.  “We’ll fight to the last man!”

”Oi, probably be me, eh”

[sifth]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

Kevan was just as brutal as Tywin.

I hate Kevan, like most sane people, but he's not as brutal as Tywin. If Tywin was still Hand, he would have attacked the Great Sept of Baelor, killing anyone in his path, to get Cersei back. He wouldn't have tried to compromise with the High Sparrow.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

21 hours ago, sifth said:

I hate Kevan, like most sane people, but he's not as brutal as Tywin. If Tywin was still Hand, he would have attacked the Great Sept of Baelor, killing anyone in his path, to get Cersei back. He wouldn't have tried to compromise with the High Sparrow.

I want to say, Kevan is not as brutal as Tywin by any stretch of the imagination...however, people like Tywin can't exist without people like Kevan. Like, Kevan is...a very realistic evil, and I would actually say...yeah, Kevan is essentially as bad as Tywin...because he just followed everything Tywin ordered, and approved it. That's...bad, even if he didn't order it. I don't know, I guess I'm torn, lol. 

Doesn't Robb order "the watcher" to watch as the other men hang first following Rickard Karstark's treason? I guess I agree with Robb here. Pretending like you aren't part of evil acts just because you didn't order it or like hold the sword doesn't make sense. Same for Tyrion by the way, who a lot of people seem to let off the hook for supporting a regime that does a lot of bad shit, because...well, they like Tyrion. 

Last thing, since I havne't said it : Kevan is in no way a badass. How? He supports an evil regime. That isn't badass. Badass is someone doing something cool and righteous...not ....what does Kevan actually do? Like not act crazy like Cersei? What are we crediting as badass now? lol 

[KingAerys_II]

There are fans that justify Maegor actions, so Kevan is fine

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Last thing, since I havne't said it : Kevan is in no way a badass. How? He supports an evil regime. That isn't badass. Badass is someone doing something cool and righteous...not ....what does Kevan actually do? Like not act crazy like Cersei? What are we crediting as badass now? lol 

I mean Vicatrion is evil as sin, but I still consider him a badass and very funny as well. I don't recall someone ever needing to be morally good, to be badass. I mean Googles definition of badass is "a tough, uncompromising, or intimidating person".

[SeanF]

43 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean Vicatrion is evil as sin, but I still consider him a badass and very funny as well. I don't recall someone ever needing to be morally good, to be badass. I mean Googles definition of badass is "a tough, uncompromising, or intimidating person".

Yes, a badass can be a total shit.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

7 hours ago, sifth said:

I mean Vicatrion is evil as sin, but I still consider him a badass and very funny as well. I don't recall someone ever needing to be morally good, to be badass. I mean Googles definition of badass is "a tough, uncompromising, or intimidating person".

Is Kevan tough, uncompromising, and intimidating? I think no. I would not call Victorain a badass myself, but you are able to call him that way if you like (I don't think it's a bad take). I guess to me the uncompromising part is important, and they have to be uncompromising in a righteous way. Tywin is uncompromising, but...I don't think that makes him a badass because he is uncompromisingly doing bad things. I think most people don't think tough, intimidating people who do bad things are badasses honestly. Example : I had a boss who was definitely tough, uncompromising, and intimidating. No one ever called him a badass. He was just an ass. I do understand why you would call Victorian that way though...he has an element someone like Tywin does not (despite both meeting that simple definition you gave). 

I think "badass" can have different meanings to different people. It's an informal word, not one taught to us in school, so everyone will define it in its own way. To me, it includes righteousness, for you, it doesn't. I still don't think Kevan meets the standard for either of us though, lol. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

7 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

There are fans that justify Maegor actions, so Kevan is fine

....That is not a sensible way of making a take, lol. Hey, some people liked Hitler, so this other dude can be as evil as possible, so they are fine. Come on man.

[KingAerys_II]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

....That is not a sensible way of making a take, lol. Hey, some people liked Hitler, so this other dude can be as evil as possible, so they are fine. Come on man.

Let's be honest, asoiaf is extremely violent, there are some love stories and other things very touching but the environment looks like a novel of Stephen King, in the current story there are the Brave Companions, Ramsay, Roose, Euron, compare them to Kevan

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

28 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Let's be honest, asoiaf is extremely violent, there are some love stories and other things very touching but the environment looks like a novel of Stephen King, in the current story there are the Brave Companions, Ramsay, Roose, Euron, compare them to Kevan

But that wasn’t my point King Aerys. You are being dishonest. I am saying Ser Kevan ALLOWS people like Tywin to exist. Roose allows Ramsay to exist in a similar way. I would argue a lot of the Ironborn are complicit to an extent in the evil Euron will do as they somehow ELECTED him. 

As I said also, which you ignored, I am conflicted. Like I said I think it would be easy to say Tywin is much worse than Kevan. However, Kevan has a whole speech to…Tyrion where he essentially defends everything Tywin does. I don’t know…if he totally is behind all of Tywin’s acts and followed his orders, is he really different? Not that much. But I am conflicted, which again, you ignored. You are not actually responding to my argument. 

[KingAerys_II]

39 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

But that wasn’t my point King Aerys. You are being dishonest. I am saying Ser Kevan ALLOWS people like Tywin to exist. Roose allows Ramsay to exist in a similar way. I would argue a lot of the Ironborn are complicit to an extent in the evil Euron will do as they somehow ELECTED him. 

As I said also, which you ignored, I am conflicted. Like I said I think it would be easy to say Tywin is much worse than Kevan. However, Kevan has a whole speech to…Tyrion where he essentially defends everything Tywin does. I don’t know…if he totally is behind all of Tywin’s acts and followed his orders, is he really different? Not that much. But I am conflicted, which again, you ignored. You are not actually responding to my argument. 

Tywin had great influence on his siblings and kids, a negative influence, so Kevan job as Hand of King was not so terrible, he is clearly softer than Tywin who thinks that cruel acts are necessary. 

Varys stated Kevan was doing a good job, he never ordered to slaughter all the members of the Faith. 

I know some people think Lannisters are monsters because of Tywin and Joffrey, but they are very grey, Jaime, Tyrion, Daven, Kevan are not completely evil and twisted as Cersei and Tywin are

Edited October 31, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[sifth]

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Is Kevan tough, uncompromising, and intimidating? I think no. I would not call Victorain a badass myself, but you are able to call him that way if you like (I don't think it's a bad take). I guess to me the uncompromising part is important, and they have to be uncompromising in a righteous way. Tywin is uncompromising, but...I don't think that makes him a badass because he is uncompromisingly doing bad things. I think most people don't think tough, intimidating people who do bad things are badasses honestly. Example : I had a boss who was definitely tough, uncompromising, and intimidating. No one ever called him a badass. He was just an ass. I do understand why you would call Victorian that way though...he has an element someone like Tywin does not (despite both meeting that simple definition you gave). 

I think "badass" can have different meanings to different people. It's an informal word, not one taught to us in school, so everyone will define it in its own way. To me, it includes righteousness, for you, it doesn't. I still don't think Kevan meets the standard for either of us though, lol. 

I never once called Kevan badass. All I ever said is he wasn't as brutal as Tywin.

Also according to the google definition of being  "a tough, uncompromising, or intimidating person", you don't have to be all three to be badass, just one.

Edited October 31, 2023 by sifth

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

I never once called Kevan badass. All I ever said is he wasn't as brutal as Tywin.

Also according to the google definition of being  "a tough, uncompromising, or intimidating person", you don't have to be all three to be badass, just one.

Lol, so by your definition "Reek" could be considered a badass I guess. He is uncompromisingly weak and subordinate, lol. I get what you mean, but I think you are relying too much on a definition of a word...that is slang, and is used as such. There is a reason we are on a forum where different people have different ideas of who is or isn't a badass..because the definition is flexible. 

I think I am just going to say I agree with you that Kevan is not as bad as Tywin (although I'm still conflicted). 

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Lol, so by your definition "Reek" could be considered a badass I guess. He is uncompromisingly weak and subordinate, lol. I get what you mean, but I think you are relying too much on a definition of a word...that is slang, and is used as such. There is a reason we are on a forum where different people have different ideas of who is or isn't a badass..because the definition is flexible. 

I think I am just going to say I agree with you that Kevan is not as bad as Tywin (although I'm still conflicted). 

It's all cool.

[Northern Sword]

I cant see how anyone would put Kevan in the category of bad ass. I see him as a fairly loyal younger brother, who was in no way as brutal as Tywin. Not even close.  

He was capable, reliable and stable. He was doing a good enough job as Hand that he needing killing by Varys.

The least obnoxious of all the Lannister's. He may not have had it in him to win a kingdom, but he also wouldn't lose one either.