Most Powerful Non-Great Houses

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I am sure this topic has come up many a time, but all the conversations I found were from like 2011-2013, so I wanted to start a new one. What do you'll think are the most powerful non-great house lords. I was inspired as I was reading about House Royce, so I guess I will start with them : 

1. House Royce - Weren't they married to a few Targaryen Princes/Princesses? And as well, they seem to be able to field perhaps the largest army in the Vale (or at least the largest outside the Arryns themselves). They also are commonly named to important positions by the Arryns, and used to be Kings of the Vale before the arrival of the Andals. 

2. House Blackwood - Listen, it's my house, I have to mention it early. We were Kings of the Riverlands of course in the past. Also supplied several Targaryen brides right? House Blackwood doesn't seem particularly rich, but they have influence and clearly field a capable army. 

3. House Frey - They are probably the richest Riverland house, and perhaps are able to field the largest army in the Riverlands outside of House Tully. They have a well positioned and difficult to take castle as well. 

4. House Velaryon - Recent events aside, House Velaryon is probably still fairly rich, just less influential than in the past. They probably have one of the larger fleets outside the Iron Islands or House Redwyne. Speaking of which...

5. House Redwyne - They are repeatedly brought up as having the biggest fleet for any individual house (except maybe..House Greyjoy). They also are presumably rich with their wines being considered the best even across the narrow sea. 

6. House Hightower - Targaryen queens, probably rich, are Lords of probably the ...most beautiful city in Westeros/one of the more influential cities of Westeros. Not sure their army size. 

7. House Oakheart, Rowan, Tarly, Florent - All these houses appear to be able to field fairly large armies, and honestly...it is unclear if they even have smaller armies than House Tyrell themselves. They all seem influential, and are constantly brought up both past and present in the books. 

8. House Caron, Dondarrion, Swann - I thought I'd include these together as well. Not sure the army size, but they do seem to consistently produce great knights, and they were important to protecting the realm when Dorne was not part of it, right? I think they are the three most influential non-Baratheon houses of the Stormlands, but maybe I'm wrong. 

9. House Bolton - For obvious reasons, during our time period, they actually are a great house I guess right now. However, even before that, I assume they had one of the largest armies outside of House Stark (maybe Manderly could be similar?)

10. House Manderly - Richest house in the North. Had fleets and appear to have a fairly large army. 

11. House Yronwood - Last one I promise. We don't know that much presesnt day about House Yronwood, but they were Kings back in the day right? Seem like the most influential non-Martell house in Dorne (although maybe Dayne as well?)

You may notice I didn't include any houses from the Iron Islands or the Westerlands, and that's because I have no clue what is the second strongest house from those areas. Tywin wiped out the second strongest Westerland house, and ....honestly, you tell me, who is the second strongest Iron Island house, I have no idea. 

[James Steller]

House Hightower is a great house according to the wiki.

[Alden Rothack]

1. Hightower- most powerful vassal house in westeros and third richest house in the realm including its own overlords House Tyrell, has a fleet and enough soldiers to fight a major war even with several of their major vassals on the other side

2. Redwyne- largest fleet in westeros, very rich from maritime trade, may have more men then Hightower but far fewer knights due to being focused heavily on marine combat.

3. House Manderly- the only vassal house other than Hightower in sole control of a city and with a large number of sworn lords besides, Manderly rivals some of the most powerful of the great houses for strength at sea and on land

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

25 minutes ago, James Steller said:

House Hightower is a great house according to the wiki.

Lol, I looked this up and you are right. Maybe a mistake. If you look on the "Great Houses" page, they aren't listed though, so just on the Hightower page. 

[Lee-Sensei]

House Hightower is the greatest of them. They're probably around as strong as House Greyjoy in terms of numbers and are stated to be almost as rich as the Lannisters. The most powerful non Great Houses are probably the Manderlys, Boltons, Freys, whoever owns Harrenhal, Royces, Graftons, Hightowers, Redwynes, Tarlys, Rowans, Yronwoods and Harlaws. There are others, but those are the ones that I immediately think of. The Velaryons were once up there too, but I don't think they are any more and the Renyes were destroyed. We don't know a lot about the Stormlands. The Blackwoods seemed really powerful during the Dance too. The major non-Tully aristocrats were the Freys and Blackwoods for a reason.

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

House Hightower is the greatest of them. They're probably around as strong as House Greyjoy in terms of numbers and are stated to be almost as rich as the Lannisters. The most powerful non Great Houses are probably the Manderlys, Boltons, Freys, whoever owns Harrenhal, Royces, Graftons, Hightowers, Redwynes, Tarlys, Rowans, Yronwoods and Harlaws. There are others, but those are the ones that I immediately think of. The Velaryons were once up there too, but I don't think they are any more and the Renyes were destroyed. We don't know a lot about the Stormlands. The Blackwoods seemed really powerful during the Dance too. The major non-Tully aristocrats were the Freys and Blackwoods for a reason.

the top three are Hightower, Redwyne and Manderly, nobody else is even half as strong of the vassal houses or even most of the great houses

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

the top three are Hightower, Redwyne and Manderly, nobody else is even half as strong of the vassal houses or even most of the great houses

I'm not sure about that. The Royce's only control part of Gulltown, but they seem very powerful. The Lords Declarant gathers 20,000 men for Robert Arryn and Royce provided the majority of the soldiers (although there were 5 other houses). I can definitely see Royce beeing at the same level as the Manderly's. The Hightowers are clear of all of them though.

[sifth]

Pretty sure House Hightower is said to be the strongest. Shame they hardly appear in the story.

[Nevets]

Hightower is definitely at the top.  They're almost as powerful as the Tyrells.

Frey is next.  They can defy their leige and get away with it.  Plus they have a huge number of members and a strategic location.

Redwyne has a huge fleet.

Manderly, Royce, and Florent are powerful in their regions but pale in comparison to their leige and the other non-great houses.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Hightower is definitely at the top.  They're almost as powerful as the Tyrells.

Frey is next.  They can defy their leige and get away with it.  Plus they have a huge number of members and a strategic location.

Redwyne has a huge fleet.

Manderly, Royce, and Florent are powerful in their regions but pale in comparison to their leige and the other non-great houses.

I definitely wouldn't put the Frey's next, unless you're talking about their relative power compared to their liegelords. That's moreo about the Tully's being relatively weak on their own, than the Frey's being overwhelmingly powerful. The Freys are almost certainly one of the 20 strongest houses in Westeros and maybe even in the top 15, but they're not after the Hightowers imho.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Alden Rothack]

8 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I'm not sure about that. The Royce's only control part of Gulltown, but they seem very powerful. The Lords Declarant gathers 20,000 men for Robert Arryn and Royce provided the majority of the soldiers (although there were 5 other houses). I can definitely see Royce beeing at the same level as the Manderly's. The Hightowers are clear of all of them though.

the Manderly's control an entire city, an huge amount of land around said city and have the most heavy horse in the north even after losing more men than the Karstarks have in total despite being primarily a maritime power

Royce is certainly the most powerful of the LD but beyond that its less clear, it is not as far as I know stated that the majority of the 20,000 men were Royces, the most of the five certainly but not the majority

 

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

the Manderly's control an entire city, an huge amount of land around said city and have the most heavy horse in the north even after losing more men than the Karstarks have in total despite being primarily a maritime power

Royce is certainly the most powerful of the LD but beyond that its less clear, it is not as far as I know stated that the majority of the 20,000 men were Royces, the most of the five certainly but not the majority

Royce isn't just the most powerful of the Lords Declarant. They're the most powerful house in the Vale after the Arryns and the original kings. That was mispeaking on my part. I meant that they'd have provided more than the other Lords, but these 6 were able to marshal a force that accounts for almost half of the Vale's full army.

[Alden Rothack]

3 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Royce isn't just the most powerful of the Lords Declarant. They're the most powerful house in the Vale after the Arryns and the original kings. That was mispeaking on my part. I meant that they'd have provided more than the other Lords, but these 6 were able to marshal a force that accounts for almost half of the Vale's full army.

I'd say most of the realms could muster half their strength under six major houses with no major lords actively opposed, that said I totally agree that Royce is the strongest of the six and I've love to see the Royces become kings again

However theres little to suggest they are comparable to the Manderlys, more like the Boltons or the Freys

Top 10 certainly but not top 5

[Lee-Sensei]

11 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

I'd say most of the realms could muster half their strength under six major houses with no major lords actively opposed, that said I totally agree that Royce is the strongest of the six and I've love to see the Royces become kings again

However theres little to suggest they are comparable to the Manderlys, more like the Boltons or the Freys

Top 10 certainly but not top 5

I just completely disagree. The Royces are clear of the Freys and Boltons and more on the Manderly's levels as I see it. Both the Vale and the North can muster about the same amount of men. The Royces are the clear number 2 like the Manderly's. They've just had a lot longer to build their power base, since they were the original kings of the region. I personally would prefer for the Arryn's to stay kings, but that's a side issue. White Harbor is a city, but it's the smallest of the 5 in Westeros. Gulltown is primarily ruled by the Graftons, but the Royce's rule part of it and are more powerful than House Grafton over all. I think that they're on the same level.

[Alden Rothack]

29 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I just completely disagree. The Royces are clear of the Freys and Boltons and more on the Manderly's levels as I see it. Both the Vale and the North can muster about the same amount of men. The Royces are the clear number 2 like the Manderly's. They've just had a lot longer to build their power base, since they were the original kings of the region. I personally would prefer for the Arryn's to stay kings, but that's a side issue. White Harbor is a city, but it's the smallest of the 5 in Westeros. Gulltown is primarily ruled by the Graftons, but the Royce's rule part of it and are more powerful than House Grafton over all. I think that they're on the same level.

The Royces are more like the Boltons than they are like the Manderlys, the Manderlys rule all of a city, have a large fleet and the most heavy horse in the north despite having already lost more men than the Karstarks have in total

The Royces have less city and less land than the Manderlys, the Arryns have good reason to want it that way too since like the Boltons and unlike the Manderlys the Royces have historically been out to get them.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 10/6/2023 at 3:13 AM, Alden Rothack said:

The Royces are more like the Boltons than they are like the Manderlys, the Manderlys rule all of a city, have a large fleet and the most heavy horse in the north despite having already lost more men than the Karstarks have in total

The Royces have less city and less land than the Manderlys, the Arryns have good reason to want it that way too since like the Boltons and unlike the Manderlys the Royces have historically been out to get them.

I already addressed this. The Graftons rule a bigger city than the Manderly's, and the Royces are still stronger than them. Baelish considers Yohn Royce the biggest threat in the Vale so we'll probably get a breakdown of their power in TWOW whenever it comes out.The Royces actually haven't been out to get the Arryn's either. They're actually their most loyal supporters. If anything, it seems that the Graftons are the Freys or Boltons of the Vale. They rose up against Jon Arryn during Robert's Rebellion and right now they're close allies of Littlefinger. When Ronnel Arryn was usurped and imprisoned by his brother, the Royce's lead the Vale in freeing him. And when Jeyne Arryn inherited the Vale after the murder of her father and brothers, a Royce took over as regent until she came of age. Yohn Royce is trying to take Robert Arryn under his wing and train him into a knight and good Lord. The Royce's seem to be among the Arryn's most loyal bannermen. If not their most loyal. This is just another way that they're similar to the Manderlys.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Alden Rothack]

1 minute ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I already addressed this. The Graftons rule a bigger city than the Manderly's, and the Royces are still stronger than them. Baelish considers Yohn Royce the biggest threat in the Vale so we'll probably get a breakdown of their power in TWOW whenever it comes out.The Royces actually haven't been out to get the Arryn's either. They're actually their most loyal supporters. If anything, it seems that the Graftons are the Freys or Boltons of the Vale. They rose up against Jon Arryn during the Robert's Rebellion and right now they're close allies of Littlefinger. When Ronnel Arryn as usurped and imprisoned by his brother, the Royce's lead the Vale in freeing him. And when Jeyne Arryn inherited the Vale after the murder of her father and brothers, a Royce took over as regent until she came of age. Yohn Royce is trying to take Robert Arryn under his wing and train him into a knight and good Lord. The Royce's seem to be among the Arryn's most loyal bannermen. If not their most loyal. This is just another way that they're similar to the Manderlys.

The Graftons don't have the lands that the Manderlys do, the Vale is not that big and most of it is mountain, what isn't mountain mostly belongs to others mainly the Royces and Arryns , the Royces on the other hand have a relatively large chunk of land and part control of the city besides if the Royces were a lot more powerful then why didn't they crush the Graftons during the Rebellion

the Royces are second in the Vale I agree and Baelish is right to fear them but they aren't making the top five based on whats known to this point

 

[Lee-Sensei]

20 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

The Graftons don't have the lands that the Manderlys do, the Vale is not that big and most of it is mountain, what isn't mountain mostly belongs to others mainly the Royces and Arryns , the Royces on the other hand have a relatively large chunk of land and part control of the city besides if the Royces were a lot more powerful then why didn't they crush the Graftons during the Rebellion

the Royces are second in the Vale I agree and Baelish is right to fear them but they aren't making the top five based on whats known to this point

If the Manderly's were so powerful, why did they ask Winterfell for help confronting the Boltons in ACOK? We don't know what the Royce's control. We just know that they're the second most powerful house in the Vale.  Parts of the Vale are incredibly fertile too. Some parts are even compared to the Reach. The Royce's are clearly stronger than the Frey's and Boltons to me.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Alden Rothack]

37 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

If the Manderly's were so powerful, why did they ask Winterfell for help confronting the Boltons in ACOK? We don't know what the Royce's control. We just know that they're the second most powerful house in the Vale.  Parts of the Vale are incredibly fertile too. Some parts are even compared to the Reach. The Royce's are clearly stronger than the Frey's and Boltons to me.

There is no question that the Manderlys could have defeated the Bolton forces remaining, that would be the case even if they weren't more powerful than the Boltons and they are because the majority of the Bolton forces were with Roose in the south, I absolutely agree that the Royces are more powerful the Boltons and Freys to some degree.

The Royces have large lands, the Graftons despite being weaker have a city, neither of them have a fleet

The Manderlys have vast lands, a city and a fleet so they are at least equal to the Royces and the Graftons.

now despite that they are still a distant third to the Hightowers and the Redwynes who are not only the biggest vassal houses but two of the top three houses over all

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

There is no question that the Manderlys could have defeated the Bolton forces remaining, that would be the case even if they weren't more powerful than the Boltons and they are because the majority of the Bolton forces were with Roose in the south, I absolutely agree that the Royces are more powerful the Boltons and Freys to some degree.

The Royces have large lands, the Graftons despite being weaker have a city, neither of them have a fleet

The Manderlys have vast lands, a city and a fleet so they are at least equal to the Royces and the Graftons.

now despite that they are still a distant third to the Hightowers and the Redwynes who are not only the biggest vassal houses but two of the top three houses over all

Didn't the Manderly's build a fleet at Ned's command starting in AGOT or ACOK? In any case, having more ships doesn't inherently make them more powerful. It just means that they're stronger at sea, while diminishing their land power. I'd say that the Manderly's are probably stronger than the Graftons and on about the same level as the Royces. I agree that both of them are noticeably weaker than the Hightowers and the Redwynes though. Those two are the biggest houses outside of the Great ones. The Hightowers on their own can probably match the Greyjoys.