A Collection of Ideas

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I have so many thoughts on these books, and have absolutely no where to put them that makes sense, so I thought I'd make a thread for people to just put their random thoughts they wanted to share. So, my ideas recently : 

1. Myrcella Baratheon is quite competent, kind, respectful, and seems quite intelligent for her age. Ironically, Arianne may have actually chosen a potential leader who would actually make a good Queen....however, Arianne had terrible reasoning and never once thinks about Myrcella's qualifications for queenship, lol. 

2. No one even considering King-ing Edric Storm is kind of strange. You'd think someone would have the thought pass through their heads, even if they dismiss it. After all, as we know, Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella are not Robert's children, but...Edric is. As we see in that one scene where Bran says that Lord Hornwood's bastard should be his heir, bastards do get legitimized and take the lands of their parents (I think quite often actually). One historical one I remember is...the entirety of House Velaryon passes down from a bastard, Alyn Oakenfist. 

3. My personal head-cannon for queer characters (outside of Renly, Loras, and JonCon, who are all essentially confirmed) : Brienne of Tarth I read as nonbinary (as someone nonbinary myself). She struggles to fit in either gender, almost calls herself a son at one point, and generally has a personality I see as a mix of masculine/feminine very similar to how I feel about myself. Cersei Lannister as...bisexual. Listen, one thing I notice is Cersei seems to almost absently think it would be normal to have sex with either gender. Outside of her own actions, this includes thinking Renly would just have sex with Margarry even if he is "gay" because "why not?" and I also noticed she wondered why Jaime, despite looking like her, didn't get male attention. It's almost like she doesn't understand not being attracted to both genders. Stannis Baratheon as asexual or greysexual. Stannis clearly seems to give 0 fucks about having sex, and seems even uncomfortable with it. I think this seems like something that could point to him being graysexual or asexual. Brynden Tully as...I need to see him have more screen time, lol. Honestly, the fact he refuses to marry could just be someone who doesn't want to get married, but...who knows? 

4. Fans who see Tywin, Roose, or Walder Frey as being the winners of their respective wars are being shortshighted. The Freys are going to get decimated because of the Red Wedding, the Boltons very well might be extinguished because of the Red Wedding, and the Lannisters are falling apart because of how Tywin treated his children/ruling with fear. On the other hand, the houses that didn't play it the dirty route, will survive I think (ie. the Starks and probably the Tullys too). The fact that the North absolutely loves the Starks and will do anything for them, while as I would guess the Westerlands could care less about the Lannisters kind of says it all. They failed. The evil they enacted was short sighted, and won't work out for them long term. 

5. I said this before, but I'll say it again, AFfC and ADwD are really good. There are so many freaking plots on plots on plots on plots. Everyone has their own agenda, and it's crazy trying to keep track of it all. Let me list a few of the plots I can see happening upcoming in the Winds of Winter below. 

6. The Northern Conspiracy - I am buying into it. I think the Northern houses have all been biding their time to betray the Boltons (with the except of the Karstarks I guess). That also means Stannis will probably not get the Northern support he wants. 

7. Nestor Royce might be playing Petyr Baelish. If that happens, that would be crazy, but I could see it happening. Petyr truly believes Nestor in his pocket....but what if he isn't? That would mean Petyr is basically handing himself over to Nestor (and the Lords Declarant)

8. The Tyrells are doing...something. Maybe they planned for Cersei's downfall (by goading her along the way) or maybe they are just running some other gambit, but I 100% think they are doing something behind the scenes. 

9. All the Blackfyre stuff making the companion books much more interesting and giving me reason to know my history better (my asoiaf history, lol). Also, (f)Aegon being a Blackfyre..just makes sense to me. I know this is a popular theory, and I guess I agree with it (and Varys is probably a Blackfyre too). 

10. I think Meereen is crazily interesting, and again everyone has their own agenda  in Meereen. I actually find the Meerenese plot extremely interesting and I want to see how it plays out (I am looking forward to more Meereen, I guess I am one of the few fans). 

11. BWB is gonna cause so much mayhem in the Riverlands. Red Wedding 2 probably, other crazy stuff. Something with Graywater Watch maybe too. Honestly, I could see so many different things going down in the Riverlands. 

12. Okay, last thing, not a AFfC or ADwD thing, but I wish Dick Crabb had not died. I know, pretty random, but...if I had a character I'd like to have seen more of that I think wouldn't majorly effect the plot if he didn't die : Dick Crabb. I want to see him gain Brienne's trust, and see through that gaining of trust, Brienne grow to learn to trust some people again. Brienne creates a random group of merry-men/women. Why not? 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

 

14 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

BWB is gonna cause so much mayhem in the Riverlands.

Speaking of which, we get several Dornish chapters in AFFC, and nobody mentions the fact that Edric Dayne, the Lord of Starfall, is missing in the Riverlands. Which I find quite strange.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

16 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

 

Speaking of which, we get several Dornish chapters in AFFC, and nobody mentions the fact that Edric Dayne, the Lord of Starfall, is missing in the Riverlands. Which I find quite strange.

You'd think someone would care about that, lol. Maybe the Daynes are freaking out?  

[Curled Finger]

38 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You'd think someone would care about that, lol. Maybe the Daynes are freaking out?  

Perhaps the "good" Daynes know exactly where young Ned is and old Darkstar will get quite the surprise when he goes to take Dawn.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

Perhaps the "good" Daynes know exactly where young Ned is

One can only hope that the Riverlands have good cellphone coverage. 

[Nevets]

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

3. My personal head-cannon for queer characters (outside of Renly, Loras, and JonCon, who are all essentially confirmed) : Brienne of Tarth I read as nonbinary (as someone nonbinary myself). She struggles to fit in either gender, almost calls herself a son at one point, and generally has a personality I see as a mix of masculine/feminine very similar to how I feel about myself. Cersei Lannister as...bisexual. Listen, one thing I notice is Cersei seems to almost absently think it would be normal to have sex with either gender. Outside of her own actions, this includes thinking Renly would just have sex with Margarry even if he is "gay" because "why not?" and I also noticed she wondered why Jaime, despite looking like her, didn't get male attention. It's almost like she doesn't understand not being attracted to both genders. Stannis Baratheon as asexual or greysexual. Stannis clearly seems to give 0 fucks about having sex, and seems even uncomfortable with it. I think this seems like something that could point to him being graysexual or asexual. Brynden Tully as...I need to see him have more screen time, lol. Honestly, the fact he refuses to marry could just be someone who doesn't want to get married, but...who knows? 

I'm not sure how to quantify Brienne.  She was created in the late 1990s and the concept of non-binary and trans didn't really exist then - at least not as they are understood today.  Obviously, she is quite unusual for a female, but she doesn't seem to have any sort of identity crisis over it, and I tend to peg her as being straight when it comes to liking men.  I think she's attracted; she just doesn't trust them.

I've always had Cersei down as straight, with her activities with Taena as being essentially experimental.  I sometimes wonder if Daenerys is bisexual, though.  I don't we have seen any pure lesbians, and doubt we will.  Brynden is an unknown quantity; he is at the top of any list of possible unknown queer characters, though.

As far as queer characters go, I don't see any real interest in the matter on the part of the author.  The setting and characters were created in the 1990s when gay characters were less prominent or any kind of a real issue.

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

7. Nestor Royce might be playing Petyr Baelish. If that happens, that would be crazy, but I could see it happening. Petyr truly believes Nestor in his pocket....but what if he isn't? That would mean Petyr is basically handing himself over to Nestor (and the Lords Declarant)

This may be possible, but it's important to remember one thing.  Sansa is the main character in the Vale; it's her sandbox.  It's where she will learn the game of politics and how to influence and manipulate people.  So it's possible that Nestor could be an unexpected ally for her once she gets crosswise with Baelish.  I think Myranda is already a likely ally.

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

10. I think Meereen is crazily interesting, and again everyone has their own agenda  in Meereen. I actually find the Meerenese plot extremely interesting and I want to see how it plays out (I am looking forward to more Meereen, I guess I am one of the few fans).

Yeah, you are one of the few. For myself, the sooner Meereen is put in the rear-view, the better.  I'm getting tired of waiting for Daenerys to head for Westeros.

5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

 

Speaking of which, we get several Dornish chapters in AFFC, and nobody mentions the fact that Edric Dayne, the Lord of Starfall, is missing in the Riverlands. Which I find quite strange.

Maybe he's not missing..  He could have gone home to Starfall after Beric's death and the breakup of the Bwb.  He's had enough time, and I don't what else he might be doing.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

I'm not sure how to quantify Brienne.  She was created in the late 1990s and the concept of non-binary and trans didn't really exist then - at least not as they are understood today. 

Lol, yes it did. It may not have used the same specific terms, but it existed. As my mom said when I came out as nonbinary, "We called them androgynous." The concept existed. GRRM was involved in anti-Vietnam protests, and other forms of the hippie movement. If you don't think queer people or nonbinary people existed in said movement, have I got news for you.  Secondly, trans people have always existed. In many cultures and societies they were even more accepted than now in Western countries. Thailand for example has a long history of transgender women specifically being visible in their society/semi-accepted by said society. As to non-binary, again, some societies had concepts of "third-gender". Literally, you can go through so much history and find examples of very obvious transwomen, transmen, or people who were inbetween. They existed. They always existed. The terms being used now are just terms, that part you are right. But the people were always there. As to Brienne. Listen, I'm nonbinary. Brienne's story is very, VERY relatable to me. And I know other nonbinary and trans fans who agree with me about Brienne. She comes off as nonbinary, not just to me, but to other queer fans as well. I think we might just know better than you. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

I'm not sure how to quantify Brienne.  She was created in the late 1990s and the concept of non-binary and trans didn't really exist then - at least not as they are understood today.  Obviously, she is quite unusual for a female, but she doesn't seem to have any sort of identity crisis over it, and I tend to peg her as being straight when it comes to liking men.  I think she's attracted; she just doesn't trust them.

As far as queer characters go, I don't see any real interest in the matter on the part of the author.  The setting and characters were created in the 1990s when gay characters were less prominent or any kind of a real issue.

I thought this deserved its own response. I do think GRRM had interest in including queer charactwes, because he did it. I have read a lot of fantasy, and guess what…most fantasy, especially as you repeated, of the 1990s or earlier has absolutely no queer representation. GRRM DID include queer representation. And he doesn’t even stereotype the queer characters that much, particularly when I compare it the abomination (the tv show) where Renly and Loras are in fact, 1990 stereotypes instead of real representation. But the Loras and Renly of the books are good characters, so much in fact that Renly has stans, including me, in the fandom. 

I want to state this again, queer people existed in the 1990s. Trans people existed in the 1990s. Nonbinary people existed in the 1990s. The refusal for society to acknowledge them, and the tendency to exclude them…also existed, and is what you are actually referring too. I was called gay in the 1990s despite liking women (just like Brienne likes men). Do you know why? Because these concepts were not discussed. Because being a feminine man was seen as only a sign of homosexuality and that was that in the US of the 1990s. Yet GRRM wrote a character very similar to me in that same 1990s. He wrote a character which had all the nuance that Hollywood refuses to acknowledge. Just because you don’t understand what nonbinary means does not mean Brienne is not nonbinary, it just means you only see buzz words and not what the concept actually means. 

Also, I want to mention, there have been fantasy authors sincr the 1970s that understand these concepts, authors that GRRM would be very familiar with. Ursula K Le Guin is one of the more famous fantasy authors I know of, and she has queer representation CONSTANTLY since the 1970s. Your ideas are limited to mainstream western culture and you are denying the existence of subcultures which already were being open and accepting to people like me. Subcultures GRRM was most likely part of or exposed to (he was unquestionably involved in some ways left wing culture of the 1970s) And again only western culture. Thai people have had a concept of trans women since the middle ages within mainstream Thai culture. 

I don’t want to prejudge you, but the words you use are those of someone who thinks the queer representation is just a fad, rather than just mainstream folks being forced to see us for the first time in Western countries. We always existed and we aren’t going away, so get used to it. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

just mainstream folks being forced to see us for the first time in Western countries.

I suppose you mean "truly see", instead of the impression Paul's been hammering through in Romans 1.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I suppose you mean "truly see", instead of the impression Paul's been hammering through in Romans 1.

No, I’d argue that many conservatives don’t believe we exist. It took me a long time to understand this. I think what opened my eyes was indeed the language that implied that nonbinary and trans people didn’t exist in the 90s (or some earlier time period). 

It reminds me of when I first came to Korea and was told by Koreans earnestly that gay people did not exist in Korea. At the time, I just laughed at them. “Obviously they exist and are in the closet,” I thought, but many Koreans truly believed that they didn’t exist, and didn’t recognize that homophobia and lack of laws protecting them from discrimination was what kept them from being open about their sexuality. I’ve quite literally watched as many Koreans come to terms with this fact as more and more Koreans come out of the closet. I think the West needs to wake up from their stupid delusion as well soon. There was just as many trans and nonbinary folks in 1990 and there is today, they were just terrified to be who they were. 

[Darth Sidious]

18 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I have so many thoughts on these books, and have absolutely no where to put them that makes sense, so I thought I'd make a thread for people to just put their random thoughts they wanted to share. So, my ideas recently : 

1. Myrcella Baratheon is quite competent, kind, respectful, and seems quite intelligent for her age. Ironically, Arianne may have actually chosen a potential leader who would actually make a good Queen....however, Arianne had terrible reasoning and never once thinks about Myrcella's qualifications for queenship, lol. 

2. No one even considering King-ing Edric Storm is kind of strange. You'd think someone would have the thought pass through their heads, even if they dismiss it. After all, as we know, Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella are not Robert's children, but...Edric is. As we see in that one scene where Bran says that Lord Hornwood's bastard should be his heir, bastards do get legitimized and take the lands of their parents (I think quite often actually). One historical one I remember is...the entirety of House Velaryon passes down from a bastard, Alyn Oakenfist. 

3. My personal head-cannon for queer characters (outside of Renly, Loras, and JonCon, who are all essentially confirmed) : Brienne of Tarth I read as nonbinary (as someone nonbinary myself). She struggles to fit in either gender, almost calls herself a son at one point, and generally has a personality I see as a mix of masculine/feminine very similar to how I feel about myself. Cersei Lannister as...bisexual. Listen, one thing I notice is Cersei seems to almost absently think it would be normal to have sex with either gender. Outside of her own actions, this includes thinking Renly would just have sex with Margarry even if he is "gay" because "why not?" and I also noticed she wondered why Jaime, despite looking like her, didn't get male attention. It's almost like she doesn't understand not being attracted to both genders. Stannis Baratheon as asexual or greysexual. Stannis clearly seems to give 0 fucks about having sex, and seems even uncomfortable with it. I think this seems like something that could point to him being graysexual or asexual. Brynden Tully as...I need to see him have more screen time, lol. Honestly, the fact he refuses to marry could just be someone who doesn't want to get married, but...who knows? 

4. Fans who see Tywin, Roose, or Walder Frey as being the winners of their respective wars are being shortshighted. The Freys are going to get decimated because of the Red Wedding, the Boltons very well might be extinguished because of the Red Wedding, and the Lannisters are falling apart because of how Tywin treated his children/ruling with fear. On the other hand, the houses that didn't play it the dirty route, will survive I think (ie. the Starks and probably the Tullys too). The fact that the North absolutely loves the Starks and will do anything for them, while as I would guess the Westerlands could care less about the Lannisters kind of says it all. They failed. The evil they enacted was short sighted, and won't work out for them long term. 

5. I said this before, but I'll say it again, AFfC and ADwD are really good. There are so many freaking plots on plots on plots on plots. Everyone has their own agenda, and it's crazy trying to keep track of it all. Let me list a few of the plots I can see happening upcoming in the Winds of Winter below. 

6. The Northern Conspiracy - I am buying into it. I think the Northern houses have all been biding their time to betray the Boltons (with the except of the Karstarks I guess). That also means Stannis will probably not get the Northern support he wants. 

7. Nestor Royce might be playing Petyr Baelish. If that happens, that would be crazy, but I could see it happening. Petyr truly believes Nestor in his pocket....but what if he isn't? That would mean Petyr is basically handing himself over to Nestor (and the Lords Declarant)

8. The Tyrells are doing...something. Maybe they planned for Cersei's downfall (by goading her along the way) or maybe they are just running some other gambit, but I 100% think they are doing something behind the scenes. 

9. All the Blackfyre stuff making the companion books much more interesting and giving me reason to know my history better (my asoiaf history, lol). Also, (f)Aegon being a Blackfyre..just makes sense to me. I know this is a popular theory, and I guess I agree with it (and Varys is probably a Blackfyre too). 

10. I think Meereen is crazily interesting, and again everyone has their own agenda  in Meereen. I actually find the Meerenese plot extremely interesting and I want to see how it plays out (I am looking forward to more Meereen, I guess I am one of the few fans). 

11. BWB is gonna cause so much mayhem in the Riverlands. Red Wedding 2 probably, other crazy stuff. Something with Graywater Watch maybe too. Honestly, I could see so many different things going down in the Riverlands. 

12. Okay, last thing, not a AFfC or ADwD thing, but I wish Dick Crabb had not died. I know, pretty random, but...if I had a character I'd like to have seen more of that I think wouldn't majorly effect the plot if he didn't die : Dick Crabb. I want to see him gain Brienne's trust, and see through that gaining of trust, Brienne grow to learn to trust some people again. Brienne creates a random group of merry-men/women. Why not? 

10 - I also love the Meereen plot. It’s one of the high points in the whole series. The scale of the plot is the ending of the slave trade. That is a social, political, and economic change on a large scale. Then there are Daenerys, the dragons, Ghis, and a large serving of magic.  
 

Tyrion’s travels to get to Meereen is another high point. 

[Curled Finger]

Could be, for it is possible, that Martin wasn't making a statement about androgynous (pick your term) folk at all in Brienne.  Could be he's met people like her among his many travels and just likes them as interesting characters?  Just a thought.  Sexual identity is not all a person has to offer, as we see in Brienne, Renly and Cersei.  Look at someone like Sandor who has zero sexual interest at all that I remember.   Big macho blow hard willing to hide behind ransoms to protect a child.  You may see him differently, but that was my take away.  People are far more than their sexual, religious, dietary, political or cultural persuasions.  These are mere building blocks to overall character.  Enjoy Brienne for all she is, for there is a great deal to be inspired by in this young person.    

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

No, I’d argue that many conservatives don’t believe we exist. It took me a long time to understand this. I think what opened my eyes was indeed the language that implied that nonbinary and trans people didn’t exist in the 90s (or some earlier time period). 

Interesting they think so. It shows a worryingly low level of knowledge even for one of the most important parts of their most important book. But I suppose there are many different avenues to conservatism opened up recently, which don't require reading the Bible, which is a situation I don't know what to make of. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

@Curled Finger : Hmm, so I want to be clear. Are you telling me how I should or shouldn't enjoy a character, or how I should enjoy media? I wrote a bunch of stuff I enjoyed in a book, and put down my head cannons for queer characters. Feel free to pass by it if you don't enjoy that. Let me abundantly clear : Never tell me again how I am or am not allowed to engage with or enjoy media that I like. That is not your place, and it is incredibly rude and entitled. Just because you don't want to engage with media in certain ways, doesn't mean you get to tell other people not to enjoy it in that way. Keep scrolling next time. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

More thoughts. 

1. The scene where Robert Arryn throws a fit and throws his porridge after refusing to eat it, and then immediately afterwards Petyr Baelish says he hates porridge and refuses to eat it...might honestly be a hint. I've never gotten into the Robert is Petyr's son angle, because I thought there was no evidence...but I admit, that seemed like a "nudge, nudge" moment from GRRM. 

2. Cersei cares about Tommen. I know this is unpopular, but she does. Is she a good mother? No, she is fairly awful. But she does care for him. She checks on him while he is sleeping. No one is watching her. She doesn't do anything about it. She wants to make sure he is okay. That is something someone does when they care about someone else. I know, people are going to come on here and tell me it's not true. I truly believe there are signs she cares about other humans though, even if it is not very strongly. 

3. Randyll Tarly is such a f***ing douche. My god. Every interaction he has with Brienne makes me want to punch him in the face. Then again, he threatened to murder his child, so..maybe douche is not a strong enough word. Horrible human being. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

9 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I've never gotten into the Robert is Petyr's son angle, because I thought there was no evidence.

The fact that Jon Arryn had fertility problems, and the nature of Petyr and Lysa's relationship definitely makes it a possibility.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The fact that Jon Arryn had fertility problems, and the nature of Petyr and Lysa's relationship definitely makes it a possibility.

I agree, those parts all make sense, I just felt like there was no actual evidence, more just supposition. Anyways, its more like...I didn't care either way (rather than like I strongly believed he was Jon Arryn's son). But this little scene may have me sold, lol. 

[sweetsunray]

Not sure yet about Brienne, but George definitely implied at least one trans character with Alleras. I consider Alleras not just as a cross dresser for detection reasons, but is genuinely trans. And I suspect Haldon Halfmaester is a trans character too, who was discovered to have female body functions while training to be a maester. Hence, he was not allowed to become one, despite him being an exemplary maester when it comes to teaching, knowledge and scepticism and denial of magic. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Not sure yet about Brienne, but George definitely implied at least one trans character with Alleras. I consider Alleras not just as a cross dresser for detection reasons, but is genuinely trans. And I suspect Haldon Halfmaester is a trans character too, who was discovered to have female body functions while training to be a maester. Hence, he was not allowed to become one, despite him being an exemplary maester when it comes to teaching, knowledge and scepticism and denial of magic. 

Holy crap. I feel like an idiot. Yes, Alleras could very well be a trans man. That makes me want to see more of Alleras in TWoW. I have no clue about Haldon, but I certainly like the idea^^. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Holy crap. I feel like an idiot. Yes, Alleras could very well be a trans-man. That makes me want to see more of Alleras in TWoW. I have no clue about Haldon, but I certainly like the idea^^. 

Published my analysis on Haldon last year: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2023/02/20/haldon-the-halfmaester/