Was Androw a bit too pathetic?

[James Steller]

Looking back on it, I do wonder if GRRM went a bit overboard with his portrayal of Androw. He isn’t educated, skilled at arms, he has no social life, and no hobbies. It baffles me what anyone could have seen in this guy. What was his father doing all those years? Did he not insist that Androw learn his letters? Give him any kind of education? What did Rhaena even see in him? I get she needed someone complacent to serve as a “husband” but surely Androw should have had some kind of charm or usefulness beyond all that. Him being educated would have helped explain why and how he resorted to poisoning (also how did he get access to the expensive tears of lys without anyone noticing?). Or maybe he could have been good with animals, hence why he was always horseback riding. Hell, give him something to do except drink and be pathetic. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by James Steller

[Craving Peaches]

I feel really sorry for him. Rhaena and co. got what was coming to them.

With that out the way, he did have something going for him - he was a nice man. Of course, Rhaena took advantage of this, which in the end made him bitter. And it isn't such a great thing in Westeros, but...

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Him being educated would have helped explain why and how he resorted to poisoning (also how did he get access to the expensive tears of lys without anyone noticing?).

Maybe he was smarter than they gave him credit for. Also, he manages to give himself a dignified and sort-of-cool death.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Craving Peaches
Names

[James Steller]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I feel really sorry for him. Rhaenyra and co. got what was coming to them.

I pity him to a point. He wasn’t forced to marry Rhaena, he wasn’t prevented from pursuing his interests. He just doesn’t seem to have had any interests. Hell, Rhaena allegedly told him to find a paramour and he couldn’t even do that. That’s what baffles me, he seems to have had zero interest in anything. It really undercuts his big revenge speech when he acts like Rhaena’s the cause of all his woe. I would feel more sorry for him if he’d actually tried to have a life instead of being so lazy and complacent. 

 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, James Steller said:

He wasn’t forced to marry Rhaena

True, but if Rhaena had shown her 'true colours' I don't think he would have married her in the first place.

1 minute ago, James Steller said:

He just doesn’t seem to have had any interests. Hell, Rhaena allegedly told him to find a paramour and he couldn’t even do that. That’s what baffles me, he seems to have had zero interest in anything

That could be because he was depressed...

1 minute ago, James Steller said:

It really undercuts his big revenge speech when he acts like Rhaena’s the cause of all his woe.

She kind of was though.

[James Steller]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

 

She kind of was though.

Again, he wasn’t forced to marry her. He could have probably left Dragonstone and done his own thing. I highly doubt Rhaena would have stopped him. 
 

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

True, but if Rhaena had shown her 'true colours' I don't think he would have married her in the first place.

 

We can only speculate on what her “true colours” were. But given the absolute tragedy that is her life, I am willing to give her more leeway than a privileged boy who suffered so little hardship in his life that he didn’t even learn to swim while living on a godsdamn island.

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

That could be because he was depressed...

 

Maybe. But we can’t know for sure.

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Maybe. But we can’t know for sure.

We can't know for sure, but given:

• The way Rhaena treats Androw could make him depressed
• He has symptoms of depression

On the balance of probabilities I say he had depression.

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

But given the absolute tragedy that is her life, I am willing to give her more leeway than a privileged boy who suffered so little hardship in his life that he didn’t even learn to swim while living on a godsdamn island.

Tragedy doesn't give her an excuse to treat others badly. Androw was nothing but kind to her and she repaid him by being a total [insert word of choice here] in return.

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Again, he wasn’t forced to marry her.

True, but there would probably be a lot of pressure on him to do so. It was an incredibly good match given his feudal rank, and one doesn't just refuse a royal offer...

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

He could have probably left Dragonstone and done his own thing. I highly doubt Rhaena would have stopped him. 

Not without embarrassing his family, plus Rhaena would probably have tried to keep him there to keep up appearances.

Fact is Androw was happy until Rhaena started mistreating him.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[James Steller]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

We can't know for sure, but given:

• The way Rhaena treats Androw could make him depressed
• He has symptoms of depression

On the balance of probabilities I say he had depression.

Tragedy doesn't give her an excuse to treat others badly. Androw was nothing but kind to her and she repaid him by being a total [insert word of choice here] in return.

 

You’re right that Rhaena hurt a lot of people in her life. But if we’re going to speculate that Androw had depression, then Rhaena absolutely had untreated PTSD. She was made to marry her own brother and nearly died for it. She then lost her brother in rebellion and was forced to marry her own uncle. Her daughters were taken away from her and then held as hostages against her while Maegor raped her repeatedly. And then she was passed over in succession in favour of siblings who weren’t sympathetic to her, to the approval of a mother who wasn’t supportive of Rhaena. Add to that the betrayal by Elissa Farman, the deaths of her lovers, the abandonment by her own daughter… I won’t say that Rhaena was justified doing and saying what she did, but she was clearly in pain and not getting the help she needed.

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

Not without embarrassing his family, plus Rhaena would probably have tried to keep him there to keep up appearances.

 

He was already an embarrassment to his family. That didn’t stop him before. Plus I think he’s still less of a black sheep than Elissa. Also, Rhaena straight up told him that the wrong Farman left. She didn’t care about appearances, she was openly living a lesbian lifestyle, it’s just the histories that avoid admitting that. I refuse to believe she would have cared if Androw jumped in a ship and abandoned her for literally anywhere else.

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

Fact is Androw was happy until Rhaena started mistreating him.

I can agree with that. But I imagine he’d have been just as miserable if he’d stayed on Fair Isle when his brother took charge. Franklyn struck me as a thorough C who would have either kicked Androw to the curb or subjected him to humiliations of his own. 

[SeanF]

I wonder whether he knew his marriage was meant to be a sham, when  he entered it.

If Rhaena led him to think that she loved him (even if she also loved his sister), then there’s no defence for her subsequent behaviour.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I wonder whether he knew his marriage was meant to be a sham, when  he entered it.

I doubt it, because he seemed very trusting and to always think the best of people.

[James Steller]

20 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 

If Rhaena led him to think that she loved him (even if she also loved his sister), then there’s no defence for her subsequent behaviour.

We won’t ever know. Maybe she did love him in her own way at first? Maybe she didn’t? Maybe he was such a complacent boy that he was happy to take the easy road in life until it stopped being easy? But for my part, I think if Androw was meant to be a sympathetic serial killer, then GRRM should have made him less of a lump on a log without a single interest. If he’d ever actually been depicted as wanting more from life rather than being too lazy or scared to do anything, then his “woe is me” moment might have had more of an impact on me.

Edited October 20, 2023 by James Steller

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

If he’d ever actually been depicted as wanting more from life rather than being too lazy or scared to do anything, then his “woe is me” moment might have had more of an impact on me.

How was he too lazy or scared? He was ready to challenge his brother in single combat after he was going to kick them off Fair Isle. He was ready to travel with Rhaena to KL after the theft of the eggs. It seems like you are criticising him just for not having a certain lifestyle. He was perfectly happy until Rhaena started treating him horribly. Also, he tried to take up a more active role, but Rhaena just laughed at him.

[Willam Stark]

I do pity him and think Rhaena and co got what they deserved.

[Green Stag]

Re-reading his entry in the Wiki, he kind of reminded me a bit of Samwell Tarly, the only real differences that Androw couldn't read and wasn't fat.  

Jon's friendship and later Maester Aemon's guidance seemed to have helped Sam, I wonder if the same could have been done for Androw at some point?  As stated above, Androw did challenge his brother to duel, so he was no coward.  He also tried to be there for Rhaena after the eggs were stolen and her mother became ill.  The guy did try, if he had been treated with some amount of respect by Rhaena while on Dragonstone things may have been different - maybe he could have even become something of a hero like Sam did?

While I don't disagree with Rhaena's PTSD; much of Androw's treatment by everyone rested on her, if her handmaidens and others felt she had some respect for him, they likely would have as well (even if a small amount), instead it appears to have become a game for them, leading him to become increasingly isolated and likely feeling hopeless. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

3 hours ago, Green Stag said:

 

While I don't disagree with Rhaena's PTSD; much of Androw's treatment by everyone rested on her, if her handmaidens and others felt she had some respect for him, they likely would have as well (even if a small amount), instead it appears to have become a game for them, leading him to become increasingly isolated and likely feeling hopeless. 

Why didn't he just focus on her, then? Seems really sadistic to slowly kill off her partners one by one, not to mention the maester who did nothing wrong as far as we know. If Aerea hadn't fled, he probably would have poisoned her too. Would that be justifiable?

Edited October 21, 2023 by Floki of the Ironborn

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Why didn't he just focus on her, then?

Because they were all part of the physical and psychological maltreatment.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Because they were all part of the physical and psychological maltreatment.

Yes, he’s like Hop Frog, or Carrie.

Edited October 21, 2023 by SeanF

[James Steller]

10 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

If Aerea hadn't fled, he probably would have poisoned her too. Would that be justifiable?

Oof, I didn’t think of that… but yeah, I’d say he absolutely would have poisoned Aerea. What better way to hurt Rhaena? That’s clearly what he wanted to do. And no, I don’t think it would be justifiable to poison a PTSD-riddled child for acting out, or for her mother’s failings, for that matter. 

[Green Stag]

12 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Why didn't he just focus on her, then? Seems really sadistic to slowly kill off her partners one by one, not to mention the maester who did nothing wrong as far as we know. If Aerea hadn't fled, he probably would have poisoned her too. Would that be justifiable?

I think it is safe to say he wouldn't have been thinking that clearly by the time he started the poisoning, however he may wanted to make sure she suffered in a way he felt similar to how he was suffering - being isolated and alone.  

He was smart enough, however, to off the Maester, who would have been the person most likely to discover him.

[Lord Varys]

I think Androw suffers a bit from a biased portrayal. A maester would find really great flaws in a man rejecting both education and learning as well as martial exploits.

As Aerea shows, it was very hard to be part of Rhaena's inner circle. The woman liked her favorites and spent time with them and cared for little else. And she made no attempt to establish a court on Dragonstone which could entertain or at least keep her husband and daughter content. In fact, she even failed to keep Elissa there, which tells us something, too.

Androw clearly wasn't as stupid as he appears - both the acquiring of the poison as well as him targeting the maester first, etc. shows as much.

But he clearly wasn't sharpest knife in the box.

On 10/21/2023 at 6:16 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Why didn't he just focus on her, then? Seems really sadistic to slowly kill off her partners one by one, not to mention the maester who did nothing wrong as far as we know. If Aerea hadn't fled, he probably would have poisoned her too. Would that be justifiable?

It seems he really loved Rhaena, that would be why he didn't kill her. Aerea I don't know - she mocked him once or twice, too, but she was equally ignored by Rhaena and her favorites, so he may have spared her, too. Or not. Impossible to say.

And obviously none of his actions are justified as he is not entitled to any of the things he wanted. Rhaena raised him well beyond his pitiful station by making him her husband.