Nymor letter theories

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

MY DEFINITIVE THEORY

snip

slow clap

Wow, you ... copy pasted everything from your previous posts. It's kind of sad you think it's perfect and not worth revising.

[KingAerys_II]

23 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

slow clap

Wow, you ... copy pasted everything from your previous posts. It's kind of sad you think it's perfect and not worth revising.

I have added some important details

[SaffronLady]

8 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

I have added some important details

They don't really fix where the old theory doesn't stand.

[KingAerys_II]

32 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

They don't really fix where the old theory doesn't stand.

May I know why you don't like it? To me it's perfect

 

2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

MY DEFINITIVE THEORY

Meria and Ullers tortured Rhaenys , Deria and Nymor hired assassins to rescue her, the four consecutive Ullers died because of Nymor assassins, it is stated that only two assassins survived to receive the ransom:the assassins of Lady Toland and Lord Fowler.

So they rescued her and she was shipped to Dragonstone to receive the gift of mercy by Aegon himself, Rhaenys convinced Aegon to stop the devastation that almost annihilated the entire dornish population.
I don't think she was glad her siblings were destroying an entire civilization because of her fall at Hellholt,  she is described as a kinderhearted person, so she was not the kind of person that enjoyed sufferings of civilians.
She was smuggled to Dragonstone in secret to hide her mutilations from Orys and Visenya.

The theory must explain the following points that I used as clues to elaborate my reconstruction of the facts:

1.Aegon had good relations with Deria, he and Aenys celebrated a feast for peace in Sunspear just after Rhaena birth.

2. Aegon clenched the letter so hard his hand is bleeding (the letter reveals Meria, who is dead, tortured his sister who was alive).

3.Aegon flies to Dragonstone for some reason. (Rhaenys shipped to Dragonstone, she was in a brutal state, however she is able to explain her journey in Dorne to Aegon).

4.Her body was never recovered. (she is euthanized by Aegon and her body is burned as tradition)

5.The ransom strategy was effective against the Ullers. It has no sense that an entire Tyrell army was no able to catch them and some people hired by the Iron Throne were able to murder 4 consecutive Lord of Hellholt in the desert. It was effective against the Ullers that were the lords that could have Rhaenys alive.

 

[SaffronLady]

6 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

May I know why you don't like it? To me it's perfect

To sum up

1. Unlikeliness of Rhaenys to survive crashing off of Meraxes
2. Martell generational drama, in general
3. Martell generational drama playing across nearly all of Dorne (Helholt is only slightly more inland than Starfall)
4. Unlikeliness of Rhaenys to survive torture on top of crashing off Meraxes
5. If Aegon was conquering Westeros due to dragon dreams, then losing a sister shouldn't have stopped him

[sweetsunray]

11 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Visenya had a dragon to fly past the guards. While I get the idea, I do not understand how Nymor was supposed to get past the garrison of Dragonstone castle.

If the Prince of Dorne arrives with a few ships and announces himself at the gate without making any overt threat, and has the bodily remains of Rhaenys with him, would anyone dare to refuse him? Why would they leave 4-5 noble, rich men remain outside when they obviously cannot "conquer Dragonstone" and aren't there to assassinate Aegon or Visenya (who are in KL), and baby Maegor was the spare?

It's not as if any of the garisson at WF ran inside, left Tyrion and Yoren waiting outside the gate and walls, when they came knocking late in the evening at WF while Ned Stark and Cat were away. They were let inside the gates and walls, and Robb and Bran warned and fetched. And baby Rickon for example ran around freely. 

[sweetsunray]

13 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I find it unlikely that Nymor could just stroll into Dragonstone and lay hands on Aegon's son. The dragons may not be there but even if he somehow made it past the royal navy (and any patrols off the Stormlands coast) it's still a fortress with a castellan and garrison. It's not like Visenya flying to the Eyrie where she has a dragon that can bypass all the defences and potentially destroy the whole thing single-handed.

I think it highly likely that if Nymor arrives at Dragonstone with just 1-3 ships, in rich dress, no army, no soldiers, just a few men of Dornish houses carrying the remains of Rhaenys could indeed "just stroll in" as you put it.

They wouldn't be seen as a threat, but as a visitor. And you don't usually let a prince or king personally visiting your master's house with the remains of his dead wife wait outside of the gates in a shabby inn, because the master isn't home, especially if you're not from some illustrous noble house yourself.

Guards only halt or stop dirty looking skinny girls they confuse for a street urchin at gates. And even when such a girl command them in a bossy tone, claiming to be the Hand's daughter, they let someone pass right into the red keep.

Whether or not Nymor actually had baby Maegor in his arms, admiring him on his strength and vigor, the moment Aegon walked into his own hall is not even that important. What matters is that Nymor claimed he intended to or would be holding baby Maegor in the letter and for a moment succeeded to put deep fear and doubt into Aegon's heart. For a moment Aegon knew that what Nymor's letter claimed could be true, that even the most loyal guards, castellans and wetnurses could be duped or bossed around by anyone who was willing to deceive them and ill intent. The moment Aegon flew to Dragonstone on Balerion to even see with his own eyes whether the claim in the letter was true or not, that would be evidence of his doubt and vulnerability. The idea, the doubt and the fear of "could it be" serve their purpose. 

Aegon's conquering started with a letter to Argilac the Arrogant, and it ended with Nymor's letter.

Edited November 10, 2023 by sweetsunray

[SaffronLady]

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Guards only halt or stop dirty looking skinny girls they confuse for a street urchin at gates. And even when such a girl command them in a bossy tone, claiming to be the Hand's daughter, they let someone pass right into the red keep.

Now that you mention this particular detail, it does make quite a lot of sense that a non-confrontational attitude could get Nymor in as a guest...

[KingAerys_II]

17 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

If the Prince of Dorne arrives with a few ships and announces himself at the gate without making any overt threat, and has the bodily remains of Rhaenys with him, would anyone dare to refuse him? Why would they leave 4-5 noble, rich men remain outside when they obviously cannot "conquer Dragonstone" and aren't there to assassinate Aegon or Visenya (who are in KL), and baby Maegor was the spare?

It's not as if any of the garisson at WF ran inside, left Tyrion and Yoren waiting outside the gate and walls, when they came knocking late in the evening at WF while Ned Stark and Cat were away. They were let inside the gates and walls, and Robb and Bran warned and fetched. And baby Rickon for example ran around freely. 

Orys was said to have become crabbed and bitter after that, so he resigned his office as Hand and returned to the stormlands. He became obsessed with vengeance against the Dornish, especially House Wyl, whose lord had removed his hand.
When Princess Deria Martell came to King's Landing to provide peace terms, Lord Orys argued for sending the princess back to her father Nymor, the Prince of Dorne, without a hand.
Lord Oakheart suggested that Deria should be sent to "the meanest of brothels to service any man who would have her"

Aegon vassals showed no will to respect guest right, Lord Wyl was successful in making his most infamous act by violating guest right

Edited November 10, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

On 11/9/2023 at 11:28 PM, SaffronLady said:

To sum up

1. Unlikeliness of Rhaenys to survive crashing off of Meraxes
2. Martell generational drama, in general
3. Martell generational drama playing across nearly all of Dorne (Helholt is only slightly more inland than Starfall)
4. Unlikeliness of Rhaenys to survive torture on top of crashing off Meraxes
5. If Aegon was conquering Westeros due to dragon dreams, then losing a sister shouldn't have stopped him

-MARTELL GENERETIONAL DRAMA HAPPENED AGAIN.

spies and friends of the Iron Throne among Morion's court and bannermen had informed the king of the prince's plans.

-AEGON II SURVIVED THE MOST BRUTAL FIGHT OF DRAGONS

-AEGON AND DRAGON DREAMS

Dragon dreams enforce speculations that Rhaenys was still alive and convinced Aegon to spare Dorne population that is useful to have manpower in a waste land, that will be useful in the future against the Others

[Alester Florent]

On 11/10/2023 at 12:24 AM, sweetsunray said:

I think it highly likely that if Nymor arrives at Dragonstone with just 1-3 ships, in rich dress, no army, no soldiers, just a few men of Dornish houses carrying the remains of Rhaenys could indeed "just stroll in" as you put it.

They wouldn't be seen as a threat, but as a visitor. And you don't usually let a prince or king personally visiting your master's house with the remains of his dead wife wait outside of the gates in a shabby inn, because the master isn't home, especially if you're not from some illustrous noble house yourself.

But this isn't like Tyrion at Winterfell, where they may not like him but feel obliged to honour the niceties. Or some random lord stopping by where the castellan might worry he's missed a memo or will get chewed out for giving offence. He's an enemy, a king with whom Aegon is at war. You don't let declared enemies into your castle, or at least not without placing them under armed confinement. Then the castellan would be sending an urgent raven to Aegon.

And how under this situation would Nymor get his letter to Deria anyway? It's not a raven letter. I find it hard to imagine he could have reached Dragonstone and got a letter off to reach Deria before the Dragonstone castellan got a raven to Aegon. Alternatively, he gave the letter to Deria before he even set out, but that would require a lot of unwarranted confidence in his ability to get into Dragonstone without being taken prisoner.

[SaffronLady]

4 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

-AEGON II SURVIVED THE MOST BRUTAL FIGHT OF DRAGONS

AEGON II SURVIVED BY STAYING ON TOP OF SUNFYRE

If Rhaenys wasn't ON Meraxes she shouldn't survive. Case in point: the other Rhaenys and Meleys the Red Queen, in the same fight with Sunfyre.

4 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

-MARTELL GENERETIONAL DRAMA HAPPENED AGAIN.

spies and friends of the Iron Throne among Morion's court and bannermen had informed the king of the prince's plans.

That can't be confirmed as Martell generational drama. There are many courtiers in a court, only a few of which belong to a family.

4 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Dragon dreams enforce speculations that Rhaenys was still alive

You are skipping too much thought process for the points to connect.

4 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

useful to have manpower in a waste land, that will be useful in the future against the Others

How exactly?

[KingAerys_II]

Dornish population developed a culture that allow them to generate prosperity in a land considered by the rest of Westeros as an "arid wasteland", the prosperity of the Kingdom is related to the local population culture. 

Keeping dornish culture meant more manpower to be used against the army of dead

Edited November 11, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[sweetsunray]

On 11/10/2023 at 11:16 AM, KingAerys_II said:

When Princess Deria Martell came to King's Landing to provide peace terms, Lord Orys argued for sending the princess back to her father Nymor, the Prince of Dorne, without a hand.
Lord Oakheart suggested that Deria should be sent to "the meanest of brothels to service any man who would have her"

Aegon vassals showed no will to respect guest right

Well, I never claimed that Nymor paid Storm's End or the Reach a visit, did I? And Orys' proposals about what to do with Princess Deria Martell shows Lord Orys was in KL at the time.

Vassal lords is something entirely different than a castellan or a guard on duty, either landless house nobility or smallfolk.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Dornish population developed a culture that allow them to generate prosperity in a land considered by the rest of Westeros as an "arid wasteland", the prosperity of the Kingdom is related to the local population culture. 

Keeping dornish culture meant more manpower to be used against the army of dead

For all their efforts Dorne is still the weakest economically and militarily out of all the continental kingdoms. Yes, backup is good, but if the rest of the continent is overrun, the army of the dead won't be stopped by Dorne alone.

[KingAerys_II]

20 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

For all their efforts Dorne is still the weakest economically and militarily out of all the continental kingdoms. Yes, backup is good, but if the rest of the continent is overrun, the army of the dead won't be stopped by Dorne alone.

Is it Dorne so weak? The North is the poorest kingdom, I believed Dorne was economically rich for the exotic products

Edited November 11, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[sweetsunray]

9 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

But this isn't like Tyrion at Winterfell, where they may not like him but feel obliged to honour the niceties. Or some random lord stopping by where the castellan might worry he's missed a memo or will get chewed out for giving offence. He's an enemy, a king with whom Aegon is at war. You don't let declared enemies into your castle, or at least not without placing them under armed confinement. Then the castellan would be sending an urgent raven to Aegon.

And how under this situation would Nymor get his letter to Deria anyway? It's not a raven letter. I find it hard to imagine he could have reached Dragonstone and got a letter off to reach Deria before the Dragonstone castellan got a raven to Aegon. Alternatively, he gave the letter to Deria before he even set out, but that would require a lot of unwarranted confidence in his ability to get into Dragonstone without being taken prisoner.

I did not claim that Nymor wrote the letter from Dragonstone. He wrote it in Dorne and gave it to his daughter when she left overland. That gave him ample time to embark on a sea voyage to Dragonstone, while all spy reports and political debates are on his daughter making a continental diplomatic overland journey to King's Landing with the skull of Meraxes.

And yes, there is cause for the castellan to be confused, since the very moment that Nymor puts up anchor at Dragonstone, Aegon and Visenya are welcoming his daughter (also an enemy) under a negotation banner and with the dragon skull. And here comes the Prince himself, without an army and the remains of Rhaenys, mentioning that he "informed" Aegon of his coming (which he does in the letter handed by Deria to Aegon) and that Aegon can be expected to come meet him that very evening and night.

So, you're construing a nonsensical scenario to dismiss my proposal that you either misunderstood or as straw man because you did not even wish to consider it.

Repeat: the scenario I'm proposing is that Nymor wrote the letter in Dorne, explaining how while his daughter traveled overland to King's Landing with the skull of Meraxes, he will have traveled to Dragonstone by ship to meet with Aegon. On the one hand he mentions that he has come with remains too precious to hand over to Aegon in a throne room while making an allusion to baby Maegor (and a veiled threat).

Upon reading Deria's letter, Aegon realized that this may actually be happening. That they left baby Maegor without a parent and Dragonstone without a dragonrider. For a moment, Aegon would have wavered between "bluff" or "wtf if this is true". And the sole manner in which Aegon could discover whether it was true or not, was by flying to Dragonstone, and alone (to save his public face). Even having to fly to Dragonstone to verify the claim in the letter would be a personal diplomatic loss, just like someone making some outrageous but very scary claim of someone standing behind you and making you look. And Aegon knew it. Nymor used a similar psychological game against him, like he once did with Argilac. Aegon knew Argilac would refuse Orys Baratheon for a husband, that proposing Orys would be taken as an insult, and therefore Aegon goaded Argilac into a war/battle of Aegon's choosing. Nymor's letter goads Aegon into accepting a peace, because not doing so would not just endanger Maegor or Aenys' lives, but because of "made you look" manipulation.

Aegon flew to Dragonstone, and he met Nymor briefly, received the returned remains of his wife and burned them. By the time he flew back to King's Landing, Nymor already sailed back for Sunspear, and Aegon announced there would be peace.

Most actual truce or peace deals agreed to tend to have a public diplomatic event, but cannot succeed without a backdoor meeting. Deria is the public front. The actual secret peace agreement was reached on Dragonstone, where only Aegon flew off too, and the sole person with higher diplomatic rank than Deria is Nymor himself. 

And though it seems but a minor thing against claims of Dornish threats or secrets on how to destroy dragons or magic or prophecy, it explains exactly why Aegon took the secret of the content of the letter to his grave. The only people who knew Nymor managed to make Aegon look over his shoulder were Aegon and Nymor himself, and very maybe Visenya when it was decided that neither prince would ever be without a parent, without an experienced dragonrider, and grew up separate (eggs in different baskets). A fresh new King of so many kingdoms would loathe for anyone to ever find out how easily he and his sister were tricked. But in order to keep the meeting and the letter secret, the reason why he flew to Dragonstone at all, he also was bound to keep the return of his sister-wife's remains a secret.

Edited November 11, 2023 by sweetsunray

[SaffronLady]

48 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Is it Dorne so weak? The North is the poorest kingdom, I believed Dorne was economically rich for the exotic products

Rich does not mean strong military.

[KingAerys_II]

23 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Rich does not mean strong military.

The best warriors in Westeros are Dayne, so they are strong, and probably Dorne is the third richest kingdom

[sweetsunray]

21 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The best warriors in Westeros are Dayne, so they are strong, and probably Dorne is the third richest kingdom

The comparison of one knight against another knight (in duel or tourney) is not to be confused by extrapolating it to an army, which consists of knights, horsemanship, and thousands of levies from smallfolk sons, husbands and grandsons trained to wield a pike, a staff and/or bow.

House Dayne may claim they produce the finest and best knight/warrior within the family, but one knight is not an army.