Nymor letter theories

[SaffronLady]

20 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The mighty dornishmen that are able to wipe out dragons but they are afraid of Ser Gregor and Armory Lorch, is it a joke? 

There's a 300 year time gap.

Circumstances. Vary.

On an unrelated note, Varys sounds quite like various. Maybe Varys is not one person, but a shared ego between multiple people.

Edited November 18, 2023 by SaffronLady
Or you know, to complete the joke, "various people"

[KingAerys_II]

32 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

There's a 300 year time gap.

Circumstances. Vary.

On an unrelated note, Varys sounds quite like various. Maybe Varys is not one person, but a shared ego between multiple people.

It seems they already forgot at the time of the fourth dornish war. 

I am sorry but it's illogical and very unlikely

[SaffronLady]

5 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

I am sorry but it's illogical and very unlikely

That is merely because your imagination is limited on what forms a weapon could take. A curse that affects only dragons and not normal people is logical.

As for Morion Martell forgetting about it, things are being forgotten in ASOIAF left and right. It is also logical, though the chances are hard to assess. Probably about as likely as Rhaenys surviving her crash.

[Ingelheim]

6 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

The mighty dornishmen that are able to wipe out dragons but they are afraid of Ser Gregor and Armory Lorch, is it a joke? 

That argument doesn't make sense.

The Dornishmen cannot stand a prolonged war against the Seven Kingdoms. They can fight back as long as they want, but in the end they'll end up losing. Doran Martell himself said they are the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms. They don't have the numbers.

But with Nymor and Aegon, we are talking about events that happened 300 years before the main series. When there where dragons

 

[KingAerys_II]

27 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

That is merely because your imagination is limited on what forms a weapon could take. A curse that affects only dragons and not normal people is logical.

As for Morion Martell forgetting about it, things are being forgotten in ASOIAF left and right. It is also logical, though the chances are hard to assess. Probably about as likely as Rhaenys surviving her crash.

I already wrote why it's likely she survived her fall

 

On 11/13/2023 at 3:42 PM, KingAerys_II said:

MY THEORY 

It's very likely Rhaenys survived her fall, it is stated that Meraxes crushed the tower and the curtain wall of Hellholt in her mortal agony, she didn't crush immediately on the ground.
(Aegon II survived the Battle of the Rook Rest and the battle against Moondancer, he was burned, crippled, severely injured, but he was alive and Corlys Velaryon used poison to get rid of him).
Meria and Ullers tortured Rhaenys , Deria and Nymor hired assassins to rescue her, the four consecutive Ullers died because of Nymor assassins, it is stated that only two assassins survived to receive the ransom:the assassins of Lady Toland and Lord Fowler.
(Some members of House Martell turned against Prince Morion during the First Dornish War:"Although Morion had hoped to take Jaehaerys unaware, the king on the Iron Throne had spies in Morion's own court, and friends among some of the Dornish lords, and was therefore warned far in advance of the plans made by the Dornish prince", probably the same happened before) .

So they rescued her and she was shipped to Dragonstone to receive the gift of mercy by Aegon himself, Rhaenys convinced Aegon to stop the devastation that almost annihilated the entire dornish population, the purpose of the Conquest was a united and strong Westeros to have the necessary  manpower to face the Others in future,to Rhaenys it was more convenient to have  an Indipendent and populated Dorne rather than a desert land with plague and famine.
Then I don't think the Queen was glad her siblings were destroying an entire civilization because of her fall at Hellholt,  she is described as a kinderhearted person, so she was not the kind of person that enjoyed sufferings of civilians.
She wrote the letter herself and she was smuggled to Dragonstone in secret to hide her mutilations from Orys and Visenya, it was the only way to avoid a further escalation.

The theory must explain the following points that I used as clues to elaborate my reconstruction of the facts:

1.Aegon had good relations with Deria, he and Aenys celebrated a feast for peace in Sunspear just after Rhaena birth.

2. Aegon clenched the letter so hard his hand is bleeding (the letter reveals Meria, who is dead, tortured his sister who was alive).

3.Aegon flies to Dragonstone for some reason. (Rhaenys shipped to Dragonstone, she was in a brutal state, however she is able to explain her journey in Dorne to Aegon).

4.Her body was never recovered. (she is euthanized by Aegon and her body is burned as tradition)

5.The ransom strategy was effective against the Ullers. It has no sense that an entire Tyrell army was no able to catch them and some people hired by the Iron Throne were able to murder 4 consecutive Lord of Hellholt in the desert. It was effective against the Ullers that were the lords that could have Rhaenys alive.

I already discussed about the water magic and there are no accounts of effective "special devices" to slay dragons

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

I already wrote why it's likely she survived her fall

And I already wrote why I think it's unlikely before you posted that wall of text.

[KingAerys_II]

9 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

And I already wrote why I think it's unlikely before you posted that wall of text.

The wall of text is the only logical theory I found in the sea of fanfic produced in 12 years about the topic, it explains everything, then I hate to repeat myself, but Aegon II survived twice he was so alive Corlys killed him

 

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

it explains everything

You bring points (such as Aegon and Aenys being "friendly" with Deria) that are unnecessary into the discussion, weave an overly convoluted and forced explanation, then say it is the only logical theory that explains everything. This is why we are still on square one after 9 pages.

Aegon is a king, and Aenys is groomed to be one. Politically polite and correct smiles is basics. They don't need to really like Deria, neither do Deria and Nymor need to fight their own matriarch to bring themselves into the Targs' zone of politeness. They could kill a dragon, and that is enough to earn respect. Your theory does not need five points: it only needs three.

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Aegon II survived twice he was so alive Corlys killed him

Aegon survived the first crash firmly on his dragon and the second crash presumably close to the ground. The problem is we have no idea how tall Hellholt's walls were to solidly rule out the possibility Rhaenys could survive. Since this is literally your only saving grace, turning your theory into a Jenga tower isn't the wisest thing to do.

[KingAerys_II]

51 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

You bring points (such as Aegon and Aenys being "friendly" with Deria) that are unnecessary into the discussion, weave an overly convoluted and forced explanation, then say it is the only logical theory that explains everything. This is why we are still on square one after 9 pages.

Aegon is a king, and Aenys is groomed to be one. Politically polite and correct smiles is basics. They don't need to really like Deria, neither do Deria and Nymor need to fight their own matriarch to bring themselves into the Targs' zone of politeness. They could kill a dragon, and that is enough to earn respect. Your theory does not need five points: it only needs three.

Aegon survived the first crash firmly on his dragon and the second crash presumably close to the ground. The problem is we have no idea how tall Hellholt's walls were to solidly rule out the possibility Rhaenys could survive. Since this is literally your only saving grace, turning your theory into a Jenga tower isn't the wisest thing to do.

"Aegon kept good relations with Deria", "Feast of Friendship", statements of the books, so you have a problem with canonic content, yours is fanfic of something that already exists. 

In "the wall of text" there is "Meraxes didn't crush immediately on the ground". It's obvious you don't care what I posted, or you are not able to catch details

Edited November 18, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

My favorite fanfic you labeled as "text wall" is based on official content, this includes the statements :"Aegon kept good relations with Deria", "Feast of Friendship".

I never pretended that it was true, but it's based on official contents in the books

Edited November 18, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[SaffronLady]

46 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

"Aegon kept good relations with Deria", "Feast of Friendship", statements of the books, so you have a problem with canonic content, yours is fanfic of something that already exists. 

Good relations meant they weren't at war. Which is exactly what both sides want, don't understand what you are trying to get at. When I said "Jenga tower", I meant "you adding Deria and Nymor fighting against Meria brought about their good relations with Aegon". But the surface reason is enough. They signed a peace treaty that was fair for both sides. It is enough to build good diplomatic relations upon.

51 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

"Meraxes didn't crush immediately on the ground". It's obvious you don't care what I posted, or you are not able to catch details

Whether or not Meraxes didn't crash on the ground immediately is of fairly little consequence to the question at hand. I'm sure you would find getting crushed by a dragon against castle walls as equally fatal as falling off of one.

[KingAerys_II]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Good relations meant they weren't at war. Which is exactly what both sides want, don't understand what you are trying to get at. When I said "Jenga tower", I meant "you adding Deria and Nymor fighting against Meria brought about their good relations with Aegon". But the surface reason is enough. They signed a peace treaty that was fair for both sides. It is enough to build good diplomatic relations upon.

Whether or not Meraxes didn't crash on the ground immediately is of fairly little consequence to the question at hand. I'm sure you would find getting crushed by a dragon against castle walls as equally fatal as falling off of one.

-The book stated that Aegon kept good relations with Deria. 

-Aenys went to Sunspear to celebrate a feast of friendship. 

Now Aenys almost died because of his mental breakdown, he was 16 years old when he became father of Rhaena, celebrating a feast of friendship with the people that killed his mother just because of diplomatic issues seem very unlikely. 

 

 

[KingAerys_II]

Dragonlords and the Others are the most powerful creatures in Asoiaf, that's why the novel is called "A Song of ice and fire", water wizards did what they did during the war against the dragons because magic was at its peak, at the time of Nymeria there were more than 300 dragons, however Garin lost and Water magic is related to rivers, Nymeria witches were able to fill dry wells thanks to the existence of dragons, magic disappeared when dragon died after the Dance, Euron is interested in Daenerys, because she is the most powerful magical being and he needs her for something

[SaffronLady]

7 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Now Aenys almost died because of his mental breakdown, he was 16 years old when he became father of Rhaena, celebrating a feast of friendship with the people that killed his mother just because of diplomatic issues seem very unlikely.

He is crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms, the heir apparent to his father. It is not only likely, it is expected.

Suffice to say there is a reason politics is not for the faint of heart.

[KingAerys_II]

10 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

He is crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms, the heir apparent to his father. It is not only likely, it is expected.

Suffice to say there is a reason politics is not for the faint of heart.

He could have refused to meet his mother killers, he was starving himself when he was a kid, it has no sense. 

Aegon was motivated by a prophecy, the Others were far worse than any threat. 

[SaffronLady]

6 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

He could have refused to meet his mother killers, he was starving himself when he was a kid, it has no sense. 

He could refuse to meet them ... if the Martells were ordinary killers, and he an ordinary victim.

It makes no sense for the crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms to refuse show up at a peace celebration with the last independent pre-Conquest regime. Even if they were deeply involved in his mother's death, with the public background of his mother invading them with a weapon of mass destruction. 

Like I said, you don't understand Aenys is no normal victim of his mother's death. He not only has to show up, he has to smile when meeting them.

[KingAerys_II]

53 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

He could refuse to meet them ... if the Martells were ordinary killers, and he an ordinary victim.

It makes no sense for the crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms to refuse show up at a peace celebration with the last independent pre-Conquest regime. Even if they were deeply involved in his mother's death, with the public background of his mother invading them with a weapon of mass destruction. 

Like I said, you don't understand Aenys is no normal victim of his mother's death. He not only has to show up, he has to smile when meeting them.

It has no sense, it's very illogical, Dorne was a blasting ruin with plague and famine, they used nothing to stop Balerion devastation, threats of water magic have no sense, Aegon was motivated by his dream when he saw the Long Night, the Others are stronger and worse than anything dornish magical knowledge. 

To me the following theory is the most logical fanfic I have found, other stuff involving threats of any sort is very unlikely

On 11/13/2023 at 3:42 PM, KingAerys_II said:

MY THEORY 

It's very likely Rhaenys survived her fall, it is stated that Meraxes crushed the tower and the curtain wall of Hellholt in her mortal agony, she didn't crush immediately on the ground.
(Aegon II survived the Battle of the Rook Rest and the battle against Moondancer, he was burned, crippled, severely injured, but he was alive and Corlys Velaryon used poison to get rid of him).
Meria and Ullers tortured Rhaenys , Deria and Nymor hired assassins to rescue her, the four consecutive Ullers died because of Nymor assassins, it is stated that only two assassins survived to receive the ransom:the assassins of Lady Toland and Lord Fowler.
(Some members of House Martell turned against Prince Morion during the First Dornish War:"Although Morion had hoped to take Jaehaerys unaware, the king on the Iron Throne had spies in Morion's own court, and friends among some of the Dornish lords, and was therefore warned far in advance of the plans made by the Dornish prince", probably the same happened before) .

So they rescued her and she was shipped to Dragonstone to receive the gift of mercy by Aegon himself, Rhaenys convinced Aegon to stop the devastation that almost annihilated the entire dornish population, the purpose of the Conquest was a united and strong Westeros to have the necessary  manpower to face the Others in future,to Rhaenys it was more convenient to have  an Indipendent and populated Dorne rather than a desert land with plague and famine.
Then I don't think the Queen was glad her siblings were destroying an entire civilization because of her fall at Hellholt,  she is described as a kinderhearted person, so she was not the kind of person that enjoyed sufferings of civilians.
She wrote the letter herself and she was smuggled to Dragonstone in secret to hide her mutilations from Orys and Visenya, it was the only way to avoid a further escalation.

The theory must explain the following points that I used as clues to elaborate my reconstruction of the facts:

1.Aegon had good relations with Deria, he and Aenys celebrated a feast for peace in Sunspear just after Rhaena birth.

2. Aegon clenched the letter so hard his hand is bleeding (the letter reveals Meria, who is dead, tortured his sister who was alive).

3.Aegon flies to Dragonstone for some reason. (Rhaenys shipped to Dragonstone, she was in a brutal state, however she is able to explain her journey in Dorne to Aegon).

4.Her body was never recovered. (she is euthanized by Aegon and her body is burned as tradition)

5.The ransom strategy was effective against the Ullers. It has no sense that an entire Tyrell army was no able to catch them and some people hired by the Iron Throne were able to murder 4 consecutive Lord of Hellholt in the desert. It was effective against the Ullers that were the lords that could have Rhaenys alive.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

On 11/7/2023 at 2:41 PM, KingAerys_II said:

ABOUT RHOYNAR WATER MAGIC

That's the TWOIAF references about RHOYNAR WATER MAGIC:

During the First Turtle War, the Rhoynar emerged victorious over the Valyrians when their water wizards called up THE POWER OF THE RIVER RHOYNE and proceeded to flood Volon Therys. If the tales can be believed, half the city was washed away.

In the Second Spice War, the Rhoynish Prince Garin raised an army a quarter of a million strong to fight the Volantenes and VALYRIANS.SO LONG AS THE ARMY REMAINED BESIDE MOTHER RHOYNE, THE PRINCE DECLARED, THEY NEED NOT FEAR THE DRAGONS OF VALYRIA,their own water wizards would protect them from their fires. In the battle at Volon Therys, the water wizards raised enormous waterspouts against the Valyrians' three dragons, and THE RHOYNE FLOODED THE ENTIRE CITY.

"The captive prince called down a curse, and that night THE RHOYNE FLOODED OUT OF SEASONthe , with greater force than known in living memory"

Princess Nymeria has been called a "witch queen", though it is not true that she practiced water magic herself. But when she brought her people to Dorne, it is said that the Rhoynish water witches knew secret spells that made DRY STREAMS  flow again and deserts bloom.
 

So the Rhoynar army was able to manipulate the water of Mother Rhoyne, a river deity, how did Deria threaten Aegon? She threatened to make dry streams flow again in Dragonstone? If the Martells had such power, why do they need the letter as a plot device to force Aegon into a peace agreement? There are no accounts of water wizards using water magic to protect Dorne from the devastation during the dragon wroth.
Dorne was a blasting, burning ruin at the end of the war, so if there were water wizards, they did a miserable job.

The threat to turn Dragonstone into a water park for dragons has no sense. Rhoynar water magic requires water from the rivers

That's the water magic used by the Rhoynar, be free to read it and to understand why threat theories involving water magic are very illogical

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Aegon was motivated by his dream when he saw the Long Night

That's not book canon

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

the Others are stronger and worse than anything dornish magical knowledge. 

Well with only two dragons left it's not like Aegon could afford to make a wrong guess.

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

That's the water magic used by the Rhoynar, be free to read it and to understand why threat theories involving water magic are very illogical

I've already read it thank you very much.

And anyway, your opinions regarding the reason behind the peaceful relations between Aegon, Aenys and Deria since page 2 are very illogical, and remain so.

[KingAerys_II]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

That's not book canon

Well with only two dragons left it's not like Aegon could afford to make a wrong guess.

I've already read it thank you very much.

And anyway, your opinions regarding the reason behind the peaceful relations between Aegon, Aenys and Deria since page 2 are very illogical, and remain so.

Explain to me why it's illogical

MY THEORY 

It's very likely Rhaenys survived her fall, it is stated that Meraxes crushed the tower and the curtain wall of Hellholt in her mortal agony, she didn't crush immediately on the ground.
(Aegon II survived the Battle of the Rook Rest and the battle against Moondancer, he was burned, crippled, severely injured, but he was alive and Corlys Velaryon used poison to get rid of him).
Meria and Ullers tortured Rhaenys , Deria and Nymor hired assassins to rescue her, the four consecutive Ullers died because of Nymor assassins, it is stated that only two assassins survived to receive the ransom:the assassins of Lady Toland and Lord Fowler.
(Some members of House Martell turned against Prince Morion during the First Dornish War:"Although Morion had hoped to take Jaehaerys unaware, the king on the Iron Throne had spies in Morion's own court, and friends among some of the Dornish lords, and was therefore warned far in advance of the plans made by the Dornish prince", probably the same happened before) .

So they rescued her and she was shipped to Dragonstone to receive the gift of mercy by Aegon himself, Rhaenys convinced Aegon to stop the devastation that almost annihilated the entire dornish population, the purpose of the Conquest was a united and strong Westeros to have the necessary  manpower to face the Others in future,to Rhaenys it was more convenient to have  an Indipendent and populated Dorne rather than a desert land with plague and famine.
Then I don't think the Queen was glad her siblings were destroying an entire civilization because of her fall at Hellholt,  she is described as a kinderhearted person, so she was not the kind of person that enjoyed sufferings of civilians.
She wrote the letter herself and she was smuggled to Dragonstone in secret to hide her mutilations from Orys and Visenya, it was the only way to avoid a further escalation.

The theory must explain the following points that I used as clues to elaborate my reconstruction of the facts:

1.Aegon had good relations with Deria, he and Aenys celebrated a feast for peace in Sunspear just after Rhaena birth.

2. Aegon clenched the letter so hard his hand is bleeding (the letter reveals Meria, who is dead, tortured his sister who was alive).

3.Aegon flies to Dragonstone for some reason. (Rhaenys shipped to Dragonstone, she was in a brutal state, however she is able to explain her journey in Dorne to Aegon).

4.Her body was never recovered. (she is euthanized by Aegon and her body is burned as tradition)

5.The ransom strategy was effective against the Ullers. It has no sense that an entire Tyrell army was no able to catch them and some people hired by the Iron Throne were able to murder 4 consecutive Lord of Hellholt in the desert. It was effective against the Ullers that were the lords that could have Rhaenys alive.

Edited November 19, 2023 by KingAerys_II